The Venice Film Festival's artistic director Alberto Barbera, Eagle Pictures owner Tarak Ben Ammar and Lucky Red founder Andrea Occhipinti sat down with THR Roma editor-at-large Alan Friedman to discuss the rise of artificial intelligence, the predominance of Netflix and the prospects of a lengthy crisis for Hollywood.
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00:00Hello, and welcome to this roundtable of the Hollywood Reporter Roma. I'm Alan Friedman,
00:12and we are going to discuss today the future of Italian cinema. And we're very pleased
00:18to have with us three superb, amazing guests. Let's start with Alberto Barbera, the artistic
00:25director of the Venice Film Festival. Welcome, sir.
00:28Thank you very much.
00:29It's a pleasure to have you with us.
00:30Pleasure.
00:31And another great figure, Tarek Ben Ammar, great entrepreneur, the owner of Eagle Pictures,
00:38and a man about town. Good to see you.
00:40Good to see you, Alan.
00:41And on the creative and production side, former actor and producer, founder of Lucky Red,
00:48Andrea Occhipinti. How are you?
00:50Very well, thank you.
00:51Good.
00:52Good to be here.
00:53All right. Gentlemen, before we begin, let's take a quick look at this special message,
00:58this interview with the Hollywood Reporter that the Minister of Culture, Gennaro Sangiuliano,
01:03gave me yesterday, and then we'll talk about it. Let's see.
01:06I have always thought that the cinema that I am a great fan of was the form of art closest
01:13to people, the one that is most immediately noticed, especially by the younger generations.
01:20And the Venice Film Festival exhibition is also confirming this year a great international
01:26showcase.
01:27It is enough to scroll through the list of participants, of those who come here to Venice,
01:34to perceive how important and relevant this appointment is.
01:38As a government, we are working a lot on the cinema front.
01:43We have worked a lot to rationalize, even a little bit, to moralize the mechanism of
01:51resource allocation to the cinema, the tax credit, but also the selective contributions.
01:57We are satisfied with the work we have done.
02:00Cinema is a great dream and each of us also relives himself through the films
02:08he has appreciated over the years.
02:11We are ready to support this, which is also an important national industry, an important
02:17Italian industry, because Italy boasts of the great excellences among the masters,
02:24among the true artisans of cinema, and we want to support this line.
02:29And the conjunction is a favorable conjunction, because in this historical moment Italy puts
02:35on the scene of the extraordinary and very good directors who are making themselves known
02:40all over the world.
02:41There we go, Gennaro Sangiuliano saying the Italian government is going to invest more
02:47in tax credits and help for the Italian industry.
02:50Alberto Barbera, how would you judge the relative health of Italian cinema today?
03:00We are in a peculiar situation now, as you know.
03:04We are coming from two or three years of the Covid period and the post-Covid period,
03:12when the Ministry of Culture decided to support strongly the Italian cinema, dubbing the amount
03:20of the money in the investment to support both the production and distribution and the
03:27theatrical circuit in Italy.
03:32Last year, when the new government came, they decided to modify, to change the rules,
03:38for example the tax credit or the public support to independent cinema and so on.
03:44It took one year to get to the result, which has just been published.
03:51So it's difficult to know what will happen in the future, where to wait.
03:54But the key facts there are, it's still nearly 800 million dollars, about 700 million euros
03:59a year.
04:00700 million euros.
04:02And it's still a 40% tax credit.
04:04Absolutely.
04:05And Americans may not know, you come to Italy, you shoot your film and 40% of your budget
04:10is paid for by the Italian government.
04:12Absolutely.
04:13It's not bad.
04:14No, no, of course not.
04:16What happened in the last two or three years?
04:19From 120 film produced per year, we are up to more than 300, 350 film produced, which
04:29is too much.
04:31In a small market like the Italian one, there is no space to release all these films, not
04:36even on the platforms.
04:37There are too many.
04:39And the fact that the producers, they had the chance to produce a lot of films, they
04:44invested in the quantity instead of the quality of the films.
04:47Okay, interesting point.
04:48Yeah.
04:49But the health economically of Italian cinema is how?
04:53How would you describe it?
04:54Strong, weak, healthy?
04:56No, I would say strong and healthy.
04:58Strong and healthy.
04:59Absolutely.
05:00But we have to wait, the consequences of the new rules that will...
05:05Are there any consequences you want to mention?
05:08I think that they are...
05:09I didn't have time to read them.
05:11We'll ask your colleagues on the production side.
05:13Tarak Ben Amar, do the new rules affect you?
05:17Are they positive or negative?
05:18Well, I think you said something very important.
05:20I was in Los Angeles and they all tell me, we're going to Spain, we're going to Malta,
05:25we're going to France, we're going to Germany because Italian tax shelter has disappeared.
05:30I said, what do you mean?
05:32And in fact, what Alberto was saying, the delay in doing the law created confusion.
05:38Uncertainty.
05:39Created confusion for the Italian films and the American movies.
05:43So thank God, I know the law is coming out.
05:46I haven't read it, but I can confirm what you just said to our American colleagues that
05:51please come back here.
05:52Don't go elsewhere.
05:54The best technicians are here.
05:56I have read, it's called a decreto, and I've read it myself in the original Italian.
06:02And Andrea Occhipinti, in reading it, the main changes I see are ceilings or caps on
06:08how much international and domestic productions can have.
06:13But isn't this because, if we're honest, there were a number of small and medium-sized Italian
06:18producers who were abusing the system before and perhaps making some illicit profits and
06:24they wanted to clean that up a bit?
06:28I mean, they worked, yes.
06:29The answer is yes, that was happening.
06:32Yeah, I mean, they worked on the rules that were previously there.
06:36So it was nothing, the rules allowed some, let's say, for some operator to use too much
06:44tax credit.
06:45There were no caps and there was no, you could, whoever could use the tax credit.
06:55Even us, if we shoot this conversation, we could use a tax credit today.
07:01So basically, they've tightened up the rules.
07:02There's one thing.
07:03They made it professional.
07:04Yeah, they made it more professional.
07:05Yeah, there's one thing that concern me that I think it's, we will see.
07:10They moved some of the money from the automatic support to the selective.
07:14Let me explain that to our viewers.
07:17In Italy, what he calls automatic support, meaning tax credits, where you apply, you're
07:23making a production in Italy, you meet the requirements, you apply to the Ministry of
07:28Culture and they give you almost mechanically 40% of your budget in tax credits.
07:33I like that.
07:35That's automatic.
07:36They have another section called selective contributions, which are essentially grants
07:41and that's a smaller amount, isn't it?
07:43Yeah, but they've moved around 70 millions from the automatic to the selective.
07:48Which is good.
07:49I don't know if it's good.
07:50I think the role of the government is to support the industry, not to decide what is produced.
07:54All right.
07:55Well, I guess the answer is that Italy's trying and we'll wait and see and move on to our
07:58next subject.
07:59Alberto Barbera, artificial intelligence.
08:02What does it mean for cinema?
08:07It is quite clear that artificial intelligence will change the rules of the film production.
08:13It's extremely innovative and could be a very useful tool to improve the way we write, shoot
08:28and post-produce a film.
08:35There is a lot of concerns related to the use of the artificial intelligence.
08:39The actors are worried?
08:42Everybody's worried.
08:43The screenwriters are worried.
08:45The actors are worried of the use of the intelligence to take their place, to replace them, to replace
08:53them in the production.
08:56Is it a valid concern?
08:57Is it valid?
08:58I think it's in part a valid concern.
09:03Can we see?
09:04You're a producer.
09:05You're a company owner.
09:06Can we see a future?
09:07Maybe not tomorrow morning, but maybe in five or 10 years or even less where instead of
09:11a writer's room of 20 people, I got three writers, artificial intelligence and the three
09:17writers aren't so much writers as curators of the content.
09:20I'm not convinced that artificial intelligence will replace the genius of writers and of
09:27directors.
09:28That's reassuring.
09:29And I also think it could be a tool.
09:31I think it's the producer's right to make cuts somewhere technically, but I don't believe
09:36the European governments are going to authorize the dubbing.
09:40If you stop the dubbing of American movies or any movie in Italy or France or Germany,
09:46you put thousands of people out of work.
09:49So thank God.
09:50And most of the Italian actors don't work in films.
09:53They work in dubbing.
09:55So are we going to endanger that?
09:56So thank God there'll be a European Ministry of Culture discussion on what's good for the
10:03industry and what's bad.
10:05But in America, there won't be those restrictions.
10:08Well I think the unions in America will stand up, will protect their citizens.
10:14So we're back to the actors and the producers and the directors and all of them.
10:18And the technicians.
10:19And the technicians.
10:20Absolutely.
10:21It's necessary.
10:22Andrea Occhipinti, you are also an actor as well as a producer.
10:26Tell me about your view, your take on it.
10:28I think what Tarek was saying is key.
10:30I mean there should be, if the technology advances very fast, very rapidly, there should
10:38be regulation.
10:39There should be agreement between the stakeholders and the union.
10:45This is key.
10:46In Europe with the government, there should be regulation that avoids what you were mentioning.
10:51Well the SAG-AFTRA deal to end the strike addressed that.
10:54Was that sufficient in your view?
10:56So far I think it is, but it's not over because the technology will keep going, it's not done.
11:05We just saw that the French arrested the head of Telegram, right?
11:09Which means the governments are trying to figure out what freedom, digital, what can
11:14you do.
11:15But Telegram is social media rather than artificial intelligence.
11:18No, but it also uses it.
11:19It also uses it.
11:20So it's going to be in every part of America.
11:22That's everywhere.
11:23Everywhere.
11:24So it's important that there is always an updating of regulations.
11:28He's right.
11:29Let's address another big subject, streamers against studios.
11:36And my analysis that the only streamer that's really making money is Netflix and the others
11:40are wrong.
11:41Well they won.
11:42They won.
11:43Give us your verdict.
11:44They won.
11:45Game over.
11:46Game over.
11:47Apple is selling phones and iPads.
11:48Amazon is selling food, right?
11:51Hulu, forget it.
11:53Netflix controls the world in terms of streaming.
11:56And it will remain that way?
11:57Yes.
11:58They won.
11:59The battle, Paramount's dead.
12:00And what happens to linear TV?
12:02That's another discussion.
12:03Which we can't.
12:04But I think streamers.
12:05He doesn't want to talk about it.
12:06No, I really don't know.
12:08But Alberto, who's been dealing, he was the first to play films, are they streamers?
12:14He brought them here.
12:15He was at that turning point that Cannes didn't do.
12:18I think he could tell you more how he approached that.
12:20You brought the streamers into Venice before Cannes, right?
12:23Yeah, that's correct.
12:24I mean, I realized that since the streamers, and mainly Netflix, because at the beginning
12:28it was only Netflix, they were producing some of the most interesting author films from
12:37the best filmmakers.
12:38You brought Roma here, right?
12:39Yes, of course.
12:40Roma was here.
12:41He won the Golden Lion.
12:42Then he won the Oscar.
12:44I mean, why trying to build a wall between the streamers and the older studios?
12:55Now they are on the same level.
12:56I mean, Netflix and Amazon, they produced some of the biggest films in the recent years
13:02that Hollywood was not able to produce.
13:05And now they are part of the producer's association.
13:09So there is not anymore a reason to consider them as something, an alien, compared to the
13:17traditional production.
13:18Okay, so this is the man who brought streamers under the tent of Venice before Cannes.
13:22He legitimatized them.
13:23He made them real.
13:24You did it.
13:25So well done.
13:26What about, I don't know if well done is the right thing to say.
13:28Well, so it is.
13:29It is.
13:30Let's ask Andrea Occhipinti.
13:31I mean, on this subject, Lucky Red was the one that distributed theatrically Netflix
13:35publish.
13:36Lucky Red, just give us a quick brief.
13:37Lucky Red is a company distribution and production company that I founded in 87 and is often
13:43the first independent.
13:44They do the best.
13:46You distributed all the Sorrentino films.
13:48Not all of them, but some of them and produced some of them.
13:51And we were, since Roma, the Italian distributor theatrically of the Netflix titles.
13:58And with a lot of protests from the exhibitors because the windows were shorter, blah, blah,
14:03blah.
14:04And because of that, they made the law then that applies for Italian films.
14:07Let me ask each of you a quick numerical question.
14:11What percentage of your distribution at Eagle Pictures and at Lucky Red is to streamers
14:17or non-streamers?
14:18Sorak.
14:19Mine, I have none, zero with Netflix or Apple.
14:24I distribute Paramount and Sony.
14:26So then they then sell them to us.
14:29But I'm a theatrical distributor of non-streamer films.
14:32And Lucky Red, what percentage?
14:33I mean, I cannot give out numbers.
14:37Is it half and half?
14:38No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
14:40Very little.
14:41Very little streamers?
14:42No streamers.
14:43We don't have streamers this year.
14:44Why?
14:45Almost.
14:46Why?
14:47Because it depends from them when they decide they want to go out theatrically or not.
14:49Have you read the New York Times article on Apple?
14:52I've read the Hollywood Reporter article on Apple.
14:54Read the New York Times article or Washington Post.
14:56I could be confused.
14:58Apple is rethinking no longer making Hollywood movies.
15:02Yeah, well, Apple has an issue or two.
15:05Well, we have a movie here.
15:07We.
15:08Eagle.
15:09As Eagle.
15:10Which movie is it?
15:11Wolves.
15:12Okay, great.
15:13Which he chose.
15:14Which stars?
15:15Brad Pitt.
15:16George Clooney.
15:17Brad Pitt is coming in tomorrow.
15:18Yeah, yeah.
15:19Yeah.
15:20They've decided a week before.
15:21Alberto can tell you that it's not going out theatrically.
15:25Because?
15:26That's their decision.
15:27Okay.
15:28I can't speak in their name.
15:29But.
15:30Do you have a problem with that?
15:31Well, I'd rather it be distributed theatrically.
15:33I get paid to release movies from Sony.
15:36Sony gave us the movie.
15:37We are Sony's distributor.
15:38What I'm saying is not just for that movie.
15:41They're adapting themselves to what their brand is.
15:46Is Apple should be seen as a Hollywood company?
15:49Or something else?
15:51That's what the article I recommend you read because it really does.
15:55Can I add something?
15:56Because you mentioned majors and streamers.
15:58And I think one of the main concerns on the theatrical board, especially for majors, and
16:05the season and the box office mainly made from very little titles.
16:10Last summer, there were two titles, you know, Barbie and Oppenheimer, that made the summer.
16:16In Italy, there was one film, Paolo Cortelesi's Cianco Rodomani, that made specifically the
16:21summer for the summer, the season for the Italian films.
16:25This is a concern because after the pandemic, the public goes for very few titles.
16:32They go a lot for it.
16:33And then the rest are lower.
16:36This is a problem for the industry.
16:37Okay, let's zoom back from our Italian conversation and talk about the world for a moment.
16:45Because we are living in a moment of epical change in the global cinema industry.
16:52Not just because of streamers and studios and linear TV and distribution and changes,
16:58but because we're seeing a consolidation.
17:02Turok said Netflix has won the game.
17:04Well, the layoffs around Hollywood are in the tens of thousands and not just the streamers.
17:10Look at Disney.
17:11Bob Iger has got all these assets he wants to sell.
17:13Look at Paramount, which gets sold, doesn't get sold.
17:17Warner.
17:18Warner.
17:19So, in this period of upheaval and global consolidation, first of all, how long will
17:23it last?
17:24A year or two more, we hope, not more.
17:27And what is the effect on films, Turok, and then Alberto, and then again?
17:34It's very difficult because it will depend on the world crisis, the wars, right?
17:40The geopolitical.
17:41Of course.
17:42The economy.
17:43Are the interest rates going to go down?
17:44So all these companies are publicly traded.
17:47They answer to shareholders.
17:49They're all trying to sell off assets or reduce costs and work for them.
17:53I believe there's too many movies in the world.
17:56Too many studios.
17:57Too many films.
17:58Too many films.
17:59I believe there's too many films, therefore too many bad movies, as a producer.
18:05Sure.
18:06Alberto sees, what, 700 movies?
18:09More than that.
18:10We receive more than 2,000 submissions of feature films only.
18:14He won't tell you what percentage he chooses, but I can guarantee you.
18:17He can do the math.
18:20So there will be a serious crisis.
18:22Yeah.
18:23There is already.
18:24Yes, but remember we thought television was going to kill cinema in the 50s and the 60s,
18:29and then DVDs.
18:32Talent will adapt.
18:33Intelligence, not AI.
18:35But are you predicting a greater crisis?
18:37I think it will be a long crisis.
18:40Across the industry.
18:41Across the industry.
18:42The main causes being one, two, and three.
18:45One.
18:46Money.
18:47People want to make some money.
18:48Two.
18:49Two.
18:50People don't really want to go out and spend money.
18:51Three.
18:52They're fine since money.
18:53And the taste of the audience has been lowered by the amount of bad movies.
18:58So now they are not educated the way they used to choose.
19:02That's why festivals are essential.
19:04Well, one thing we don't have here at the Venice Film Festival is the dumb and dumber
19:10sort of pop movement that our friend Turok is talking about.
19:13No, but we do have Beetlejuice.
19:16Well, that's pop.
19:17Yeah.
19:18Yeah, and it works.
19:19Yeah, and it works.
19:20It works.
19:21It pleases the young and the old.
19:22So we shouldn't judge films being snooty.
19:25But it's Tim Burton with the talent.
19:28Again, talent will always survive.
19:30And content is still the driver.
19:31Mediocrity will never...
19:32Exactly.
19:33And excellent content is still the driver.
19:35I would drive your attention on another...
19:38Direction.
19:39Direction on another aspect of the problem, because more and more there is another problem
19:45that is going to affect the world production of films, which is the censorship, which is
19:50not something we are used to.
19:53Censorship where?
19:54Where?
19:55In a lot of countries.
19:56A lot of countries.
19:57China?
19:58China mainly, but in other countries, in South Asia.
20:01Okay.
20:02India.
20:03India, of course.
20:04Yeah.
20:05Turkey.
20:06Yeah.
20:07Latin America.
20:08I mean, have you seen what is going on in Argentina, for example?
20:11Yes, yes.
20:12It's a mess.
20:13And this censorship...
20:15So I was accused not to have too many films from Asia or from Latin America and so on.
20:21But the problem is that there are no films.
20:23Talent are not allowed to make their own, express themselves freely in the same way
20:30we are used to.
20:31He's right.
20:32So there is no films.
20:33And the effect of this censorship in places like China, India, Turkey, Argentina, is what?
20:39Andrea?
20:40I mean, this is unfortunately happening in more and more countries where there is...
20:48That's why I was saying that governments should not control or direct what is produced.
20:52It's going to be a different level of censorship or auto-censorship.
20:57Tarak Ben Amar, what kind of advice would you offer to Italian filmmakers?
21:05Well, I think Andrea was a great producer also, by the way.
21:09He can tell you better than I for the Italian film industry.
21:12I was blessed to have learned my business through Roberto Rossellini, Comincini, Zeffirelli.
21:20Scripts is...
21:21If it's not on the page, it's not on the screen.
21:24Content is still the driver.
21:25And the content doesn't start if it's not on the script.
21:29And then the vision is something else.
21:31So I think the writers don't necessarily have to be directors.
21:36And directors don't necessarily have to be the writers.
21:39Some who have a vision, yes.
21:40So that's really that balance of making sure that the script is great.
21:46That's my long experience.
21:48Alberto, you agree with that?
21:49I agree.
21:50I mean, content and vision.
21:52We need the two elements, unless it's possible to have a good film.
21:56There is a good example for that in Italian cinema, Luca Guadagnino.
22:01He never wrote a script, but he has a great vision.
22:04He's a great filmmaker.
22:05He makes great movies.
22:07Tell me about Queer.
22:08I can't.
22:09We'll see it.
22:10You can't talk about it.
22:11No, I can't talk about it.
22:13But you will see it soon.
22:15Tell me when Daniel Craig is coming.
22:17It's coming on Monday because it's...
22:19Daniel Craig is great.
22:20Yeah.
22:21He's great.
22:22The film is very, very dirty.
22:23Fantastic.
22:24Absolutely fantastic.
22:26I think, I can tell you, Queer is the best film by Luca Guadagnino so far.
22:32So far.
22:33Wow.
22:34That's a big praise coming from me.
22:35Film after film.
22:36So, yeah.
22:37So you loved it.
22:38I loved it.
22:39It was in three versions.
22:40I read somewhere it was a three-hour version, two-hour version.
22:42What were you excited about?
22:43I had the chance.
22:44I had the chance to see three versions.
22:45The first one was three hours and 20 minutes long.
22:49Right.
22:50Then he got the music of the film and he decided to cut the film on the basis of the music.
22:56And the film was cut to two hours and a half.
22:59And then 15 days before the opening of the festival, he decided to cut again.
23:03So now the film is two hours and 15 minutes.
23:06Wow.
23:07But I love a lot the first one, the longest version.
23:12Which includes 20 minutes of gay bars in Havana?
23:15Yes.
23:16More than that.
23:17Sure.
23:18The cruise in the bars of Havana is absolutely fantastic.
23:19Because this is from the William Burroughs novel.
23:21Yeah, yeah.
23:22Sure, sure.
23:23And it's a classic.
23:24This is an example that, to tell filmmakers, he does see all the cuts.
23:29He really does.
23:30Yeah, yeah.
23:31He does.
23:32You know, sometimes you say, oh, he's not going to watch it.
23:33He does.
23:34No, no, no.
23:35I do.
23:36Everybody who's watching this, remember, when you submit to the Venice Film Festival,
23:39this man sees everything.
23:41That's my point.
23:42Okay?
23:43Tell them on camera.
23:44I do.
23:45He does.
23:46Alberto Barbera, artistic director of the Venice Film Festival, Tarak Ben Amar, legendary
23:50producer, owner of Eagle Pictures, and Andrea Occhipinti, owner of Lucky Red.
23:56Thanks for being with us.
23:58Thank you very much.
23:59For this, the first The Hollywood Reporter Roma Roundtable.
24:01I'm Alan Freedman, editor-at-large.
24:03We'll see you next time.