The_Laws_Making_It_Harder_to_Vote(360p)
The_Laws_Making_It_Harder_to_Vote(360p)
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00:00Here's something I think about from time to time.
00:06So much of the legacy of the 2020 election was shaped by the act of voting itself.
00:11I've requested a mail-in ballot.
00:13I mean, I'm trying to avoid indoor spaces, and so it seemed like an easy way to avoid
00:17indoor spaces.
00:18I prefer to mail it in and just stay in the house and be safe.
00:21The spread of COVID-19 forced many states to expand vote-by-mail operations.
00:27But Dropboxes became a more regular site.
00:30And it was there that so many conspiracy theories found a home.
00:35When you do all mail-in voting ballots, you're asking for fraud.
00:41People steal them out of mailboxes.
00:43People print them, and then they sign them, and they give them in.
00:46And the people don't even know where they're double-counted.
00:49People take them away.
00:50They force people to vote.
00:52Of course, we saw those lies culminate in the January 6th attack on the U.S. Capitol.
00:57Well, four years later, workers at voting companies and election officials are still
01:02being threatened.
01:04And some Republican voters continue to say they don't have faith in our electoral system.
01:09And with the first debate between Vice President Kamala Harris and former President Donald
01:13Trump just days away, the first mail-in ballots are expected to go out soon in North Carolina,
01:20once courts rule on whether Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.'s name will be on the ballot or not.
01:24But once they arrive, are voters ready for the rules that come along with them?
01:30My guest today is CNN's Diane Gallagher.
01:35She's based in Charlotte.
01:36We're going to talk about what voters should know about early and mail-in balloting, this
01:40cycle, and how the Republican Party is embracing methods their candidate himself regularly
01:46trashes.
01:48From CNN, This Is One Thing, I'm David Rein.
01:58So Diane, how is early voting and mail-in voting in particular going to work in North
02:04Carolina this year?
02:05So the bigger difference in North Carolina this year will definitely be voting by mail.
02:12And that's because of a couple things.
02:14So the first part that is probably going to be the most impactful, honestly, is the
02:18amount of time.
02:20North Carolina previously had a grace period of about three days for ballots that were
02:25postmarked before or on election day to arrive and still be counted.
02:30During the 2020 election, because of the pandemic, that was extended to like nine days.
02:35Today, now, it's zero.
02:37So people shouldn't wait around is what you're saying.
02:40No, do not wait to the last minute unless you're going to go deliver it by hand to
02:44the county office.
02:46Now there are options to turn it in in person at your county elections office.
02:50During early in-person voting, you can do that.
02:52But again, a lot of the reason why people outside of 2020 voted by mail was for specific
02:58reasons.
02:59It was difficult for them to get into these places to go vote in person.
03:04They have disabilities, they're elderly, they work weird hours.
03:07So sometimes dropping it off isn't always convenient at those specific locations, especially
03:13if you live in a rural county.
03:14And in North Carolina, there's a second highest rural population.
03:17So that's a lot of people.
03:20Filling it out is different now too, David.
03:22During the 2020 election, the number of witnesses required was reduced to just one.
03:29North Carolina already had a very high bar.
03:31It required two witnesses or one notary public on an absentee ballot.
03:36That's back.
03:37So not only do you need two witnesses or a notary public to sign your ballot to prove
03:44that you in fact voted, but you also now have to include a photocopy of your approved photo
03:52ID.
03:53That's completely new.
03:54Wow.
03:55Yeah.
03:56So you need two separate people to certify that, yes, they filled this out correctly
04:00and then you need an ID.
04:02That sounds like a lot of steps.
04:04It's definitely a hurdle.
04:06Now there is an option for some people, if you, for some reason, cannot get to make a
04:12photocopy because the truth is how many of us do have photocopiers at our fingertips
04:17and printers even, there is an option to fill out a form asking for an exception.
04:23But voting rights groups are also concerned what the requirement is to always accept that,
04:28how that's going to work.
04:30And so they are advising people, if you can get to, you know, a photocopier, photocopy
04:34your ID.
04:35David, this is also the first presidential election in North Carolina that voters will
04:40actually have to show ID, period.
04:42So this has been going on for years and years in this state.
04:45It's included a long legal saga, but it's finally in place.
04:51It's been very confusing for voters who years ago thought maybe they needed an ID or didn't.
04:56And so the state of confusion is honestly constant, it seems like, and people have to
05:02know, they got to present an ID to vote in person and also to vote by mail.
05:06Also, what are the parties in the state doing to, like, make sure people are aware of all
05:10this stuff?
05:11So the biggest thing that I've noticed in talking to both of the campaigns of the Republican
05:18and the Democratic presidential candidates, but also there's a really intense and important
05:23down ballot in North Carolina, and they're cognizant of what voters are dealing with.
05:29They are pushing early in-person voting, for sure.
05:33They know that voting by mail is harder this time.
05:36They also know that far fewer people are going to vote by mail than did in 2020, that's natural.
05:42But they realize it's more work and there's more room for error.
05:47And the average voter doesn't pay attention to a lot of these changes until they're actually
05:53doing it.
05:54And so, I mean, that is where some of the idea that these changing laws and intentional
06:00confusion sometimes creates barriers for people voting.
06:04Not that they're impossible to overcome, but sometimes it just makes it easier for people
06:09to say, it's not worth it for me, whatever, I'm not going to do it.
06:12And that is the concern.
06:17What is the Harris campaign doing as far as any sort of education?
06:22Because most of those mail voters often aren't mail-in voters, they're often Democrats.
06:27Look, we recognize that the barrier to entry to vote by mail is harder this time around.
06:32That's why we've invested in an expanded voter protection team all over the states.
06:37We've hired...
06:38The Harris campaign in North Carolina talked to me about beefing up their voter protection
06:43units to actually help not just educate, but fight for voters who feel like they're being
06:48disenfranchised.
06:50What we see with absentee mail, again, about 5% of the total electorate, all votes matter.
06:55All votes are important, especially as you talk about where we have margins very tight.
07:00President Trump won North Carolina in 2016, won it in 2020, and we'll see him win it again
07:05in 2024.
07:06Both sides do sort of seem resigned that, look, there's going to be battles over the
07:10ballots and they're already ready for those.
07:20Beyond North Carolina, though, what should people in other states know about early voting
07:31and mail-in voting as they start to engage with this process and start to learn what
07:35these rules are?
07:36I mean, number one, it's safe and it's effective, and if that's the type of voting that is right
07:42for you, you should do it.
07:45But you also should make sure you are aware of what the rules are, because they've changed
07:51in most states.
07:522021 and 2023 were both unprecedented years when it comes to the number of voting laws
07:58that were enacted.
07:59Now, I'm talking both restrictive and expansive voting laws.
08:03So there are several states, including those all-important swing states, like Michigan,
08:08that have made voting easier or better in terms of accessibility.
08:12But honestly, more frequently, we're sort of tracking the opposite.
08:16There's a report from the liberal-leaning Brennan Center of Justice.
08:21There's a report that basically says voting in half the states across the country is going
08:26to be harder than it was four years ago.
08:29Now, again, when you say harder, we're talking about those additional steps or hurdles that
08:34people may have to overcome to cast their ballots.
08:37Many of the states, especially those that have Republican legislatures and governors
08:40that have changed laws, they've actually made the act of helping the voters understand
08:46or like physically assisting with that access or understanding more difficult or even illegal.
08:52Some of these organizations no longer are able to assist with ballots where that's been
08:57their entire purpose because there's this suspicion that they're only assisting Democrats.
09:03And that's unfounded.
09:04But it's oftentimes placating people who are concerned about meddling in elections
09:11and election assistance being one way.
09:14You're talking about somebody that like helps an elderly person like deliver the ballot
09:19to where it needs to be, you're saying?
09:21Sometimes, yes.
09:23Or help somebody in understanding how to fill ballots out properly.
09:27There are organizations that do this.
09:29Now, you can usually ask a friend or a relative to do that.
09:33Most of these laws still allow that.
09:35But it's the idea that these organizations that have sort of made it their mission to
09:38try and make voting easier or more accessible for people, or if English is not your first
09:44language or something like that, it has become more difficult in many states for those organizations
09:50to operate, including sending out simple voter registration information because there's suspicion
09:57that they're trying to register people who are not allowed to be on the voter rolls.
10:03There's also, I mean, talking about usage of ID, talking about regulations on registration
10:09early in absentee voting, Georgia also empowered partisan poll watchers through some of its
10:15election overhaul legislation.
10:16So there's concern about intimidation at the polls.
10:19It's just this amalgamation of so many changes at once that not only creates this cloud of
10:26confusion around the voting process, but also in some cases inserts fear.
10:32And whether that be election workers or voters themselves, for many voters, it doesn't take
10:38much to make them say, it's not worth it to me.
10:41And when you're talking about swing states that are hinging on, you know, really relatively
10:46small amount of votes, if you get enough people who say, hey, this is just too much hassle
10:49for me.
10:50I can't be bothered with this.
10:51Like that can make a big difference.
10:53That's right.
10:54In so many of these swing states, we're talking about one point or less.
10:59North Carolina was the only state on the 2024 sort of battleground map, those seven swing
11:06states that Donald Trump won in 2020.
11:09And he only won it by 1.3 points.
11:12That was his slimmest victory.
11:14And Americans often only participate in these presidential elections.
11:18And sometimes the biggest hurdle of all is simply like not knowing, like the average
11:23person's not sitting around looking up every detail of how do I vote because they think
11:27they should, as they should just be able to cast their ballot.
11:32And so sometimes that is what actually disenfranchises people.
11:36Can you set me straight about something?
11:38Yeah.
11:39Are Donald Trump and the Republican Party fans of mail-in voting or not?
11:43Because like I've heard a bunch of different ways from them.
11:46I can't set you straight on that, honestly.
11:48It's complicated.
11:49It's contradictory.
11:51It's hard to tell.
11:52Yes and no.
11:55It depends on the day or sometimes even what part of the day it is.
12:00Look, Republicans overall are going to tell you that they want their supporters to vote
12:05in the way that is most comfortable for that voter.
12:08Guess what?
12:09A lot of people prefer the convenience of voting early, either in person or by mail.
12:14Now, look, Trump for his part continues to sort of rail against mail-in voting, but also
12:18he like sometimes encourages supporters to do it.
12:22He's both on the same day.
12:28The way you win is to swamp them.
12:30If we swamp them, they can't cheat.
12:33It just doesn't work out.
12:35But if you can't make it, you need to make a plan, register and vote any way possible.
12:40We got to get your vote.
12:41A good example is last week, the RNC and the Trump campaign rolled out an initiative called
12:46Swamp the Vote.
12:48The point of it was to encourage voters in that very important state of Pennsylvania
12:52to vote by mail.
12:54That exact same day.
12:55Anytime you have a mail-in ballot, there's going to be massive fraud.
13:00Trump is telling Dr. Phil in an interview that mail-in balloting shouldn't be allowed.
13:04And anytime you have mail-in ballots, you know, quote, you have massive fraud.
13:08You have ballot harvesting, but you also have people getting ballots.
13:11I mean, in California, you have people getting seven ballots.
13:16There's no proof of those claims.
13:17So not only is it false, but it's counterproductive for him.
13:24The North Carolina GOP chair this week told me that the mixed messaging isn't a problem
13:28in North Carolina because Trump usually follows things up with, you know, make a plan.
13:33You need to make a voting plan.
13:36That is important.
13:37Every single voter out there should have a plan, but they are mixed messages.
13:41Is it difficult to convince people that, though, when the top of the ticket has for so long
13:47trashed mail-in ballots?
13:48Well, again, what I would point is President Trump has been very clear, specifically when
13:52he's come to North Carolina.
13:53Would we call that clear?
13:54He has.
13:55When he's come to North Carolina, he's told people, have a plan, whether, again, that's
13:59by voting by mail, voting in person early or on Election Day.
14:02Have the plan.
14:03Execute the plan.
14:04What if they're making a plan based on what the leader of the party says?
14:09And what if he's saying these bogus claims that you're talking about?
14:13Like, that's just incredibly confusing.
14:15We're hearing that, David.
14:16I will tell you that I have had multiple voters who have said that they don't trust voting
14:23by mail, even if it's how they used to vote for a long time.
14:27In the state of North Carolina, previous to the past eight or so years, Republicans actually
14:33outnumbered Democrats when it came to mail-in balloting.
14:36It wasn't controversial.
14:39And while there may be concerns about specific small incidents, there's no proof of any of
14:46this widespread fraud or intentional distrust in that process.
14:52And the impact is there on voters.
14:53They tell us that they don't want to do that.
14:56They don't trust the system.
15:01Look, we lost Arizona.
15:0310,000 votes was the difference between Arizona going for Donald Trump and 10,000 going for
15:08Joe Biden.
15:09Yeah, there were a lot of problems.
15:11There were a lot of problems.
15:12But 10,000 votes stand between us and getting those Arizona electoral votes.
15:18And we got a lot of people.
15:19There are many of these changes that were made that were often done to placate people
15:27who were angry and upset and were looking for something to fix.
15:31And sometimes there were solutions to problems that did not exist.
15:36There's nothing wrong with making an election run more smoothly, ever.
15:42But there have been so many changes in the past four years.
15:46The cloud of confusion that will likely exist around the 2024 general election for an average,
15:52maybe less engaged voter is going to be thick.
15:56Diane, thank you.
16:00And just a reminder, we have something at CNN called the CNN Voter Handbook.
16:07It's got everything you need to know about voting in your state.
16:10Key deadlines, how to register, ID rules.
16:14That is over at CNN.com slash vote.
16:17Again, that's CNN.com slash vote.
16:19We'll leave a link in our show notes.
16:29One Thing is a production of CNN Audio.
16:32This episode was produced by Paolo Ortiz and me, David Rind.
16:36Our senior producers are Felicia Patinkin and Fez Jamil.
16:39Matt Dempsey is our production manager.
16:42Dan DeZula is our technical director.
16:44And Steve Liktai is the executive producer of CNN Audio.
16:47We get support from Haley Thomas, Alex Manassari, Robert Mathers, John D'Onora, Lainey Steinhardt,
16:54Jameis Andres, Nicole Passereau, and Lisa Namarao.
16:58Special thanks, as always, to Wendy Brundage and Katie Hinman.
17:01We'll be back on Wednesday from Philadelphia to break down everything that happened in
17:04the presidential debate.
17:06I'll talk to you then.