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00:00Hi, this is Anthony D'Alessandro from Deadline Hollywood, and welcome to our TIFF studio.
00:15We are here today with the director, producer, and co-writer of Paramount's Better Man, Mr.
00:21Michael Gracie.
00:22Hi, how are you?
00:23I'm very good, thanks.
00:25So Robbie Williams, he helped you out on Greatest Showman.
00:30He did, yeah.
00:31There was a moment where Hugh was questioning whether the music was strong enough, being
00:35a musical, obviously you sort of live and die on the music, and it was a video that
00:41Rob made after I took him through the narrative and then played him the songs for The Greatest
00:48Showman.
00:49I actually said to Rob, look, the only thing more bizarre than me showing up at your house
00:54on a weekend is what I'm about to ask you now, and I pulled out my phone and I said,
00:59it's one thing for me to tell Hugh what you think of the music, it's another thing for
01:01you to tell him yourself.
01:03So do you mind if I just video you and you just talk into camera as if you're talking
01:07to Hugh?
01:08And that video that he made is literally what convinced Hugh to move forward and do The
01:15Greatest Showman.
01:16Wow.
01:17Yeah.
01:18That's something else.
01:19Now you, one of the reasons why you did this movie is you said that he's a guy that's got
01:22some amazing stories.
01:24That said, what are some of the ones that hooked you?
01:28I mean, there's some stories that aren't in this film that were some of the original ones
01:32that he told me, but when he would tell the stories, in the same way when you meet someone
01:37for the first time, like we would catch up socially and he would ask me about my life
01:41and I'd ask him about his life, and just in the art of storytelling, the way he would
01:47tell the story, it was just incredibly engaging.
01:50They were very original, you know, very heartfelt narratives, but I also love the way in which
01:56he delivered it.
01:58And not with even a film in mind, I just said, look, while you still remember these stories,
02:04let's capture them.
02:05You know, you've got a sound studio at your house.
02:07I'll come over when I'm in LA and we'll just sit and chat like you and I are now.
02:12And we'll just record it.
02:13We'll just hit record, you know, and maybe it's just for you to listen to in a nursing
02:17home one day, but we should get it.
02:19And that's what we did for about a year and a half.
02:21Every time I visited LA, we would just get together and chat.
02:24And those recordings formed the basis, you know, of the film to the point where those
02:31original recordings are in the film as voiceover.
02:34Oh, very cool.
02:35And what's great about that is, you know, it's about 80% of them are the original recordings
02:42and the delivery is very conversational.
02:45It's not presentational.
02:48And I think it makes you feel like you're just sitting in a room with Rob as opposed
02:53to someone going, let me tell you my story.
02:56It's all, it's just, it's very much like two people just chatting.
03:01And there's a real magic to that.
03:02You know, we even tried to re-record some of them and we couldn't get them as good as
03:05the original recordings.
03:06Tell us your whole drive to make this a musical biopic that is different from all other musical
03:14biopics.
03:16And I'm going to have you tell everyone how that is.
03:21You know, once I had the recordings, I would sort of chop them up and listen to it like
03:27a radio play and just close my eyes and think, you know, could this make a great film, like
03:33a narrative film?
03:35And I'd been fortunate in that I'd worked on Rocketman for a number of years with Lee
03:39Hall on that script.
03:42And so I wanted to just come at it from a different perspective, meaning, you know,
03:47there's already Bohemian Rhapsody, Elvis, Rocketman.
03:50And I just thought there's got to be a different way to lens this particular story.
03:57So in looking for a way into it, I actually went back to the recordings and I was listening
04:03to those recordings and time and time again, I could hear Rob say, you know, I'm just up
04:11the back performing like a monkey, or I was off my head, but they would just drag me on
04:17stage to perform like a monkey.
04:19And he said it enough times that I was like, there's really something to this.
04:23You know, he really sees himself as this performing monkey and not just on stage.
04:28As opposed to cow or giraffe.
04:30Well, that's the thing, right?
04:32Yeah.
04:33But also, you know, there is a sort of performance nature to his entire life.
04:40You know, whether it's the kids that he was around when he was growing up, whether it
04:44was in front of his dad, who, you know, is a sort of entertainer himself.
04:49And so he wants to impress his dad.
04:52There's sort of this constant desire to perform.
04:55And I guess that's in everyone.
04:56Like that's all of us.
04:57We all put on a performance to some degree.
05:00I just thought it was a fascinating way in if he's telling the story, if we presented
05:04Rob as the way he sees himself.
05:07So I obviously asked Rob if he was to be an animal, what animal would he be?
05:13To which he answered with a big grin, definitely a lion.
05:17And I thought to myself, and I just said, really?
05:23And that's all I needed to say.
05:24I just said, really?
05:26And then he gave it a beat and he went, actually, I'm more of a monkey.
05:33And with that, I sort of pitched him the idea that that's how we should present him in the
05:37film.
05:38Was there a back and forth in regards to which songs would get in the movie and which songs,
05:43which of his songs would be cut?
05:45I mean, I think the credit goes to Rob in that he very much just gave us free reign
05:50to put whatever songs worked narratively.
05:55And that was amazing because we weren't doing it based on anything other than at this point
06:00in this story, what can we retrofit in terms of the lyrics into this moment?
06:08And sometimes we have to turn songs like She's the One into a duet or whatever we needed
06:12to do. He was completely open to that reinterpretation because, you know, with this film,
06:19you've got people who have a long history of listening to Rob's music and you're hoping to
06:24give them a new context narratively to these songs.
06:28And if done well, it does mean that when they listen to Angels or when they listen to
06:33She's the One or when they listen to whatever song of Rob's, Rock DJ, they will think
06:39back to this moment in the film.
06:41That would be the greatest outcome.
06:44The other audience is in America who don't know Rob's music, in which case they're
06:49actually watching the film like it's an original musical, like The Greatest Showman.
06:54And so they're hearing the songs for the first time and seeing these visuals.
06:58So it will always be associated with that moment within the narrative.
07:04And to me, that's that's unbelievably exciting.
07:07Both both are exciting.
07:09You know, one is receiving it like it's an original musical and one you're giving a new
07:13context to songs already known.
07:15So, yeah, we were very fortunate in that Rob was completely open to whatever songs we
07:22wanted to use.
07:23Did he write any songs for the film?
07:25He wrote a song for the credits because I always thought what would be amazing is if
07:31you the name of it, Forbidden Road.
07:33OK, and Forbidden Road is a reflective song from the point of view of he's just watched
07:39the entire film.
07:40He's watched his life story.
07:43And in reflection, how does he feel?
07:46And that's kind of an amazing point to get to where you get to watch your life, which
07:51is not an easy, an easy thing for anyone to do.
07:55And then in hindsight, look back over that life and kind of comment on it.
08:01So, yeah, it's it's an I always loved the idea that as you sit there in the dark at
08:05the end of the film, you're sort of hearing the voice of the person who's just watched
08:10the film about himself.
08:14Everybody wants Greatest Showman 2.
08:17What's going on with Greatest Showman 2?
08:19And are you involved in the new musical?
08:22I'm not involved in the stage musical.
08:27And Greatest Showman 2, that's that's up to Disney.
08:30You know, obviously, we made the film when it was at Fox.
08:33And now that's all that that as a property is owned by Disney.
08:37You know, look, I think the actors have all commented about what it would be like to make
08:43Showman 2.
08:44I think we were very fortunate that when we made Showman, it was just one of those magical
08:49moments where we all came together.
08:51And as a cast, they were so incredibly supportive.
08:55Peter Cohen, who was the first AD on The Greatest Showman, pointed out to me one day that our
09:01cast members would come in on their days off just to sit behind camera and clap and applaud
09:06and cheer on the other performers when they were doing their musical numbers.
09:11And Peter Cohen said to me, this doesn't happen on every film.
09:16And as it was my first film, I wasn't aware of that.
09:19I just thought this is a but but when you look back in hindsight, you go, yeah, it was
09:23a it was a really special moment.
09:25And it was an incredible group of people who came together to make that film, both in front
09:29of the camera and behind the camera.
09:31And I think that comes across in the end result.
09:33You know, it feels like a passion piece.
09:36Looking back, does the success of it still surprise you?
09:39I remember reporting on the box office of it.
09:42And at the time, way before at CinemaCon, it was like clear, oh, this is going to be
09:46big for them.
09:47And then opening up over Christmas, it was kind of like, and then it just changed.
09:53It like changed overnight.
09:56It was a word of mouth film.
09:58And I was always very confident about that.
10:01And you know, Hugh tells the story where he called me and he was saying, yeah, I'm really
10:05sorry, mate.
10:06Like after the first weekend, because we only made eight million dollars.
10:10And the film cost a lot more than that.
10:12And I said to him, no, no, no, no, wait, wait, because it's going to be word of mouth.
10:17People are going to talk about it.
10:18And I only felt that because there was a real sense of when you watched it with an audience
10:25that they wanted to go back in and watch it again.
10:27There was a real desire to go back in and have that feeling again, to hear that music
10:32again, to experience that story again.
10:35And they were the sort of musicals that I used to love.
10:37Growing up, Mary Poppins, Singing in the Rain, Sound of Music, you just want to watch them
10:42over and over again.
10:44And so, you know, we were we set out to try and make a modern day classic in terms of
10:50the musical, original musical genre.
10:53And at the time, no one wanted an original musical.
10:58And we're really fortunate that that La La Land came out just before us.
11:04And I think everyone sort of relaxed a little bit and went, oh, hang on, this this original
11:08musical thing might might actually work.
11:10So I'm very grateful for Damien because it took a lot of heat off me during the editorial
11:15process.
11:17Thank you, Michael Gracie, director, producer and co-writer of Paramount's Better Man, making
11:24its Canadian premiere.
11:26That's right.
11:27Here at the Toronto International Film Festival.