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00:00Hello and welcome, you are watching Left Right and Centre, the weekend edition and our big
00:09focus on the show this evening. Less than 10 days to go for the Jammu and Kashmir assembly
00:14elections and terrorism is at the centre of the poll discourse with militancy far from
00:19over both in Jammu and the valley. A day after Home Minister Amit Shah reiterated the no
00:24terror for talks refrain in Jammu, the Defence Minister campaigning just kilometres away
00:29from the line of control which witnessed heavy gun firing just weeks ago hinted at
00:34a possibility of a dialogue with Pakistan only if it stops aiding terrorists. From snubbing
00:40Pakistan's SEO invite to calling Pakistan a proxy war agent, the Prime Minister has
00:46minced no words in his diplomatic position vis-a-vis Pakistan. The government has been
00:51clear, terror and talks cannot go together. But with South East Asia turning more volatile
00:57than ever before, a peaceful neighbourhood is India's immediate concern. The onus, however,
01:03for peace is on Pakistan, is on those backing militancy. On Left Right and Centre this weekend,
01:08we ask, as India's Defence Minister opens a door for dialogue, will Pakistan walk the
01:14distance? Before I bring in my guests, listen in to what the Defence Minister had to say.
01:19And joining me on the show this evening, I'm being joined by Shazia Iqbal. Shazia,
01:49Ilmi, Spokesperson of the BJP. Also with me, Prabhu Dayal, former Ambassador and a very
01:54articulate voice on India's diplomacy. Dr. Dara Karta, former Director, National Security
01:59Council Secretariat, will also be joining us on the show this evening. And I'll also
02:03be joined by spokespersons from the PDP and the National Conference. Going across to you
02:08first, Mr. Prabhu Dayal, how do you see what the Defence Minister has said today? He's
02:13of course reiterated what has been the government's stand that terror and talks cannot go together,
02:18but he's also hinted at some sort of a conditional dialogue with Pakistan, something that perhaps
02:24the government has largely been opposed to in the past few years.
02:30I think that the Defence Minister has given very good advice to Pakistan. But the unfortunate
02:36thing is that the Pakistan army will not stop supporting terrorist activities against India.
02:45The Pakistan army rules the roost in their country. Pakistan is not a democracy where
02:53the elected government calls the shots. Rather, it is a deep state. And in the deep state,
02:59an unelected authority calls the shots. In the case of Pakistan, it is the army alongside
03:05its intelligence wing, the ISI. Now, within Pakistan, the army derives a lot of importance
03:13by saying that India is hostile. The Pakistan army derives mileage because of the hostility
03:20within them. Now, if there's peace, the army will have to go back to the barracks and it
03:25will lose its prestige, its importance, and its overall say in their political system.
03:31So, while the Pakistan army does not want an open, all-out war with India, because it
03:38will pay a very heavy price. It did so in Kargil. All along, the Pakistan government
03:44pretended that their army was not involved. But very recently, General Asim Munir, the
03:50chief of the Pakistan army, has acknowledged that Pakistan lost a lot of soldiers in Kargil
03:56and that their army was involved. Now, the army does not want an open conflict. It wants
04:01covert warfare. It wants to send terrorists to India to retain the hostile nature of the
04:09relationship. And for this reason, Pakistan has been ceaselessly supporting terrorist activities
04:16against India. I am afraid that will not stop because if it stops, the importance of the
04:22Pakistan army within their country comes down. Imran Nabidar of the National Conference is
04:27also with us. Imran, your response to what Rajnath Singh has said. The regional parties
04:32in Jammu and Kashmir, of course, have talked about dialogue being the only solution. But
04:37I am afraid in the past decade or so, perhaps more than a decade, we have not really seen
04:41any lasting solution to the Pakistan problem, given the fact that the central government
04:47is open to conditional dialogue only on the condition and the caveat that Pakistan needs
04:53to stop aiding terrorists. That's a fair diplomatic position. Would you agree?
04:59Exactly. I think it's a silver lining and we welcome it. This is a very positive development
05:07that has come after a very, very long time. As all of you must be aware, the National Conference
05:12has always been a votary of reconciliation, a votary of dialogue, because we believe that
05:20every issue and every conflict can get resolved by only dialogue. Gun is not a solution. We have
05:30seen enough of bloodshed and it's a very welcome sign that the Indian Home Defence Minister has
05:37made a very positive statement vis-a-vis dialogue. And he has sort of justified our stance also,
05:45because our leadership has always been a big votary of this dialogue. Now, the ball lies in
05:56the court of Pakistan and I'm sure they also need to make a step and they also need to send out some
06:04signals. And I'm sure that somebody in the Pakistan administration would also like to
06:13have cordial relations with India. And this is a positive development. We welcome it.
06:19Very important point you're making that this is a positive development and also, you know,
06:23this conversation is happening in the backdrop of, of course, the elections that are scheduled
06:29to be held from the 18th of September. It's important there that the National Conference
06:32there welcoming what Rajnath Singh has said on this. Shazia Ilmi, a quick response to this and
06:40also the larger question around India's stand vis-a-vis Pakistan. Of course, the Defence
06:47Minister also reiterated the terror and talks cannot go together stand. But do you see this
06:53also as some sort of a softening of position as far as Pakistan is concerned in the run-up to the
06:59elections? I don't see any softening there. There is, of course, a need to underlie and specify
07:07that we would want good relations with all our neighbours. And because he specifically did
07:13mention that while we do not choose, while we choose our friends, we don't choose our neighbours.
07:18And that is extremely desirable for India to have good relations and to initiate a dialogue. But it
07:25cannot happen with the stance and the existence of sponsored terrorism that India has been at
07:34the receiving end of for years. So that is made amply clear. If you look at National Conference,
07:42they are keen that there has to be a dialogue with Pakistan, that it's important to the relations and
07:49to the interest of valley. They have also reiterated that they would be very lenient to
07:56the prisoners who have serious charges, whether sedition or others.
08:03And also on trade, LOC trade and talks of that. Now, talks, trade do not go together with terror.
08:14So now it cannot be a parallel track in that sense. So it is, one happens at the expense of
08:22another. And that is exactly. Are you saying in a sense that what the position of the regional
08:28parties vis-a-vis Pakistan has been perhaps that of unconditional dialogue and that is a problem?
08:36Are you saying that? Well, absolutely. It's a huge problem. And this is, of course, this is a
08:42political compulsion of the two parties, prominent parties of the valley. But BJP, which very clearly
08:50has stood for something like abrogation of 370 and 35A, which has this manifesto completely
08:58dedicated to this and who we've had a whole history ideologically to see how Shama Prasad
09:04Mukherjee lost his life and how he died in very mysterious circumstances and how the whole party
09:13and ideologues and what it stands for is completely for an integrated Jammu and Kashmir
09:21in every sense of the word. That is legally, constitutionally, socially.
09:27And let me get the National Conference spokesperson to respond to that. Imran,
09:31your response to what Shazia is saying that there are perhaps political compulsions
09:35and some sort of a tightrope there for you, which is why you need to emphasize again and again on
09:41this kind of unconditional dialogue with Pakistan, despite the fact that, you know,
09:46we see rising cases of militancy. No, there is only one compulsion which
09:52BJP doesn't understand, which perhaps their leadership doesn't understand,
09:57is that at the end of the day, the conflict has taken a heavy toll on Kashmiris. One lakh people
10:04have died. That is the compulsion that we have. That is the compulsion, that is the pressing need
10:09that we want that both these countries should sit together and discuss the issue on the table,
10:15rather than fighting with guns and bombs. That is the compulsion we have because we have lost
10:20over one lakh people to this senseless violence and we don't want to lose more people. We don't
10:26want bloodshed. So, it is prudent and I think it's a very welcome statement from the Defence
10:33Minister, who has sort of, the kind of statements that has come from the Defence Minister is very
10:41encouraging when he said that we cannot change our neighbours, we can change our friends,
10:47but neighbours are there, which late Vajpayee ji had also said. So, I would call it a very
10:54positive development and it is something that both countries need to take forward.
10:58But the point you made about rising militancy and Shazia, come in on this quickly before I
11:02get in Dr. Tara Karta, listening very patiently. So, Shazia, I mean, the BJP has constantly made
11:08this point that militancy has gone down since the revocation of Article 370. In fact, in your
11:14manifesto, you talk about complete eradication of militancy. But the fact of the matter is that
11:19we have seen, particularly in the past six to eight months, the kind of terror attacks, whether
11:25it was an army vehicle being attacked, whether it was an IAF convoy being attacked, the ambushes
11:31that we have seen across Jammu and Kashmir, both in the valley as well as Jammu. So,
11:35militancy is far from over. We will have to accept that.
11:39And nobody is even saying that. In fact, in all the speeches of Amit Shah ji, the Home Minister,
11:44and all the reports that are there for everybody to see, the fact of the matter is that in terms
11:50of the incidence of terror and death that happen of civilians and instances of militancy, it has
11:57gone down by 70%. And that's a huge number. When you look at something like stone pelting,
12:03which was something that everybody saw and experienced and suffered and was part of,
12:09it has come down by 100%. If you look at tourism itself, I mean, you're looking at huge numbers
12:15there. And that is big. I mean, come on. So, it's like maximum tourism has happened in this phase.
12:23And not just that, we've seen panchayat elections, we've seen Zillal elections,
12:27we've seen DDC elections, which have not happened, and we've seen a huge turnout.
12:31So, in that sense, it is actually the end of freedom of these three political parties,
12:37but sovereignty and autonomy for the local Kashmiri in the valley for the very first time.
12:44And it has never, ever happened before. In fact, the turnout that we saw during
12:49the Lok Sabha polls as well, that was also quite encouraging. Though, of course,
12:55those within the electorate have pointed out that the situation is more complex than that. While,
13:00of course, there's been increased autonomy and the economy has opened up, but there are
13:04complexities that need to be addressed. Dr. Tara Karta, from a diplomat's perspective,
13:09what should be the way forward when it comes to our relations with Pakistan? Do you see
13:15the government stand that there cannot be any talks as long as Pakistan continues to back
13:20terror? Do you see this as the solution for lasting peace? Because we do need a
13:25peaceful neighborhood. We are seeing what's happening in our neighborhood.
13:30In that sense, I don't think the government position has changed very much. I mean,
13:34that's what we've been saying, that as long as terrorism continues, no talks. And you had
13:39Jaishankar, who recently said the same thing. I mean, he said, look, we will respond according
13:44to what Pakistan does. And if Pakistan carries terrorist attacks, I'm sorry, we're not talking
13:49to you. Nobody should talk at the point of a gun. I mean, that is something which most countries
13:56will refuse to do that, you know, if you increase terrorist attacks, I will talk to you. Sorry,
14:01that is not a happening thing. And second thing is, I think the Article 370 is a given. That is
14:07what the government says. And if in that perspective, any talking to Pakistan on that
14:14is also not likely to happen. And it should not. You made a decision, you stick with it.
14:20Having said that, if Pakistan responds to us, like Nawaz Sharif had said, I mean,
14:26he said that, look, you know, we actually violated the Lahore agreement, you know, we did.
14:32So, there was that encouraging kind of talk. But right now, whom do we talk to? I mean,
14:39Asim Munir, Lieutenant General Asim Munir is the top dog. He's got his own ISI chief in custody.
14:47He's going to get the next, I'm pretty sure, this is not a full stop, he's going to get the last
14:52COS on as well. So, there's chaos in Pakistan. And economically, they're in decline. They're
14:59suffering severe rise in terrorism, all of which means Pakistan should stop supporting
15:06terror and talk to us. That's the best thing for them. People have described terrorism as
15:10Frankenstein's monster, you know, when it comes to Pakistan. But Ambassador Dayal,
15:16one point that Dr. Tarak Karta made that, you know, when we speak of dialogue,
15:20who do we really talk to? I mean, it's not just the government in Pakistan, but the military
15:24establishment, really, that calls the shot. So, this dialogue with Pakistan that has become the
15:30sort of focus of, you know, the poll narrative as well is extremely complex. And I'm sure as
15:35a diplomat, you would agree with that. Well, I agree with what Dr. Tarak Karta said.
15:42And in fact, in my opening remarks, I also categorically stated that the real power in
15:49Pakistan rests with the army. It is the army which calls the shot. And whenever the civilian
15:56leadership has tried to do something other than what the army wants, the civilian leadership
16:00has had to pay a price. I recall that Zia-ul-Haq had executed Bhutto. Then later, Musharraf had
16:13overthrown Nawaz Sharif. Recently, Imran Khan is languishing in prison because he dared to question
16:20the authority of the army chief, General Asim Munir. So, it's the army which calls the shots,
16:26and the civilian leadership has to play second fiddle. And as I said, the army profits from a
16:32hostile relationship with India. It derives prestige. It tries to pretend to be the protector
16:39of Pakistan. And in the bargain, it sets up lots of advantages for itself. There are army housing
16:47societies, defense housing societies, which are given to army officers at throwaway prices. There
16:53is the Fauji Foundation, where retired army officers are employed and get huge emoluments.
16:59So, the army has to maintain this relationship of hostility because it profits from it.
17:06That's a very important point, because that's really the essence of the entire debate.
17:11And we've seen in the past two, three years particularly, so many instances of how the
17:15military establishment in Pakistan is really profiting from this terror industry, as many of
17:22our government ministers have also called. But quickly, let me get in our political
17:26spokesperson on why this has become a political plank. In fact, Imran, if you could come in on
17:31this. We saw your leader, leaders of the PDP also talking about how, you know, the militancy and how
17:38the entire security situation has worsened since 2019. But, you know, the larger question is,
17:43why make this a political plank? No, why not? I mean, if BJP can question
17:51when they were in opposition, if BJP could question everything, they put every domain
17:57politically. Why can't we question the actions of the present government? And why can't we use
18:03it politically? What stops us from using it? Because at the end of the day, this is what
18:07democracy is all about. I mean, right now, the government at the centre in Jammu and Kashmir,
18:14it is the BJP which is calling the shots. And we need to ask questions, they need to be held
18:18accountable. There have been n number of incidents in the valley, which deserve some sort of answers.
18:26Many of our soldiers have died in the line of duty. Who is responsible for that? I mean,
18:30there has to be some sort of accountability. And we would not stop asking questions. We would
18:35question the government, we would question, it is the job of the opposition. This is what
18:39makes a democracy vibrant and this is what makes a democracy working.
18:46Okay. Shazia, your quick response to that. So, I think, first of all, I feel National
18:52Conference is in a bit of a spot. If you know what happened in the last elections, and I think
18:57Omar Abdullah has been rather traumatised by his defeat at the hands of Engineer Rashid's,
19:06in his hands, and how he lost his, you know, how he got rejected by the populace, so to speak.
19:13Which is, and he also promised that he would never, never, never be a part of any electoral
19:18transaction, so to speak, until it becomes, until J&K is, gets statehood back. But there
19:27you have Omar Abdullah begging for his honour, taking off his cap, petrified to the core,
19:33going helter-skelter and fighting from two constituencies. Not just that, ever since
19:39Amit Shah made his presence felt, and released the manifesto and made it amply clear that there
19:45is no return of 370 and 35A, and that it's gone for good. You see how cleverly and mischievously
19:54he brought in, that is Omar Abdullah brought in, you know, the whole matter of
20:02Afzal Guru. So here we're looking at, and this causes a lot of embarrassment to his alliance
20:07partner, because Congress ministers do not know what to say. So when you want to talk politically,
20:12and you want to cater to the lowest basic sentiment, which is exactly what he's doing,
20:17talking about, you know, the communal card, the victim card, Afzal Guru. Imagine using a
20:24convict, you know, like Afzal Guru to further your political gains. So I understand what my
20:30friend says from NC, that you have to do everything to make it political, but having to resort to
20:36using Afzal Guru's name to get some gains for yourself, I don't see it as a shot in the arm at
20:42all. I do see it as shooting yourself in the foot, it's the other way around. And I do not think
20:47that we will now see, have any great luck for Afzal Guru.
20:51I'll have to cut you short. I'm running out of time. Dr. Tarakarta, the last word to you.
20:55A two-part question. A, how do we really change the situation on the ground, whether it's through
21:00dialogue or, you know, the kind of policy India has adopted? The situation on the ground remains
21:05grim, as many have pointed out. And also, do you think polls perhaps can usher in, you know,
21:12a new era for Jammu and Kashmir, particularly when it comes to militancy?
21:19Yeah, I think transparent polls, which is what we are seeing now, is what is actually needed for
21:25Jammu and Kashmir. I mean, if you've got Engineer Rashid actually contesting, you've got a relative
21:32of these, I mean, there's a lot of, Jamaat-e-Islami has created a number of people. This is a
21:37transparent election, which nobody can question. That is actually what you need on the ground.
21:42However, if I can just say one thing, I would, I mean, ideally like it if regional parties,
21:49I mean, you talk of everything, but don't bring up this issue of talking to Pakistan.
21:54That is an issue of foreign policy. It is not true.
21:58Okay, I agree with you that perhaps that really shouldn't be brought in the poll narrative.
22:03Shazia, you had a point? Last 20 seconds. Yeah.
22:05No, I totally object to ma'am's insinuation that there is lack of transparency. I don't
22:13know what she's insinuating. In fact, she's saying that there is,
22:15there is transparency. That's what she's saying, that we are seeing transparent polls there.
22:20But I'm afraid I'll have to leave it there. We're running out of time on left, right and center.
22:23This, of course, remains one of our top focus stories on NDTV, given the fact that
22:28polls will begin in Jammu and Kashmir on September the 18th, a truly historic moment,
22:32a turning point for the Union Territory. For now, a short break, but news continues on the other side.