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00:00I know that when I was growing up that life is tough.
00:05Even less than 10 years ago, when I was already the CEO of Propnex,
00:12I used to go to a McDonald's at Toa Payoh.
00:15I'll just order a $2 cheeseburger and I will not order the drink,
00:23sometimes the fries, sometimes not.
00:27It's just that I feel that it's not the right price.
00:31Right, so it really is about what value means to you at the end of the day.
00:43In the hot seat, as you can see, we have Ismail Ghaffar.
00:47If you've ever been in the market to buy or sell your home,
00:51chances are you would have come across the name of his company, Propnex.
00:56It's Singapore's largest listed real estate agency with a sales force of over 12,000 agents.
01:03He's a father of three and a self-proclaimed happy person.
01:07Look at that, look at that smile.
01:10Alright, welcome to Money Talks, Ismail.
01:12Thank you so much, thank you so much for your kind words and such a long introduction.
01:18You're no stranger to Singaporeans out there.
01:21Tell our listeners one thing that most people may not know about you.
01:27I can get angry too.
01:28Of course.
01:29Yeah.
01:30What would make you angry?
01:31Things that don't move the way it should.
01:34I don't like people to delay.
01:38How often does that happen?
01:39Oh, no more. I'm now so much more older.
01:44That's wiser.
01:46With more wisdom, so I don't.
01:49That's a good approach.
01:50So, you have before in the past talked about the tough childhood you had, right?
01:55You grew up in a one-room HDB flat with five siblings.
01:59You helped your dad deliver newspapers.
02:02Was there one particular incident that stood out to you in your childhood that shaped your attitude towards money?
02:10I really felt that my dad was working very hard.
02:13And I also felt that my mum felt that was always never enough.
02:19I wouldn't say food on the table.
02:21We were quite luxurious as far as the basic necessities were concerned.
02:26I think in our childhood, we have never had a family holiday at all.
02:35Until... never.
02:38Wow.
02:39No, as a family with my mum and dad.
02:41Other than, yes, visiting his hometown back to India.
02:45All of us, even my children, are so blessed that holidays are a given entitlement.
02:54Not once a year, at least twice a year.
02:57But different.
02:59But I think I know that when I was growing up that life is tough.
03:05How did that make you value money?
03:07It took a long time for me.
03:09Long, long time.
03:13That I have the desire to be able to spend a bit more freely.
03:17And now I can.
03:18Okay.
03:19I can.
03:20Yep.
03:21Even less than 10 years ago, when I was already the CEO of Propnex and the largest real estate company.
03:30Really blessed with a lot of things.
03:33I used to go to a McDonald's at Toa Payoh and stand there thinking what to order.
03:40My heart doesn't approve of ordering a value meal.
03:45I'll just order a $2 cheeseburger.
03:50And I will not order the drink.
03:54Sometimes a fries.
03:56Sometimes not.
03:57I bring it up to my room.
03:59And I enjoy it.
04:00It's just that I feel that it's not the right price.
04:04Right.
04:05So it really is about what value means to you at the end of the day.
04:12Yeah.
04:13But that behaviour, surprisingly, is only something that I want to treat myself.
04:17Right.
04:18But when I want to spend on others, I'm very happy to see the delight in the faces of others.
04:27I used to be very generous with people around me, but not myself.
04:33But that changed in the last eight years.
04:36What was that turning point that made you change your mind?
04:41I went for some courses and some deep reflection.
04:45I deserve.
04:47I started to love myself more.
04:49And do you feel better about yourself and your life?
04:54And has that changed how you handle your generosity, especially when it comes to money?
05:00100%. I must say that.
05:02Even in the past, as far as handling money and spending money, I never had an issue.
05:09But spending on myself has always been an issue.
05:14And when I start to love myself and spend a bit more on myself, that gives me the radiance and the energy
05:22and very positive vibes and comments.
05:25And I feel more loved.
05:27When you feel loved, you naturally tend to be more generous.
05:31Yeah.
05:32And I think it's a good thing.
05:34And there's no better love than the love you have for yourself, isn't it?
05:37Yes, exactly.
05:38Eight years ago or so, I always say when people, I thought if I put a ranking out of three things,
05:45family, career, self.
05:50Yep.
05:51Would you want to try? What would you rank?
05:54Oh, wow.
05:55Family, career, self.
05:59That's exactly my ranking.
06:01Yep.
06:02I put my family first and then my career and then myself.
06:05But then I realised after going through some enlightenment through courses that I attended,
06:12maybe even though I said family, but my focus, my energy was actually my business, my career.
06:21Because I was too passionate about it.
06:23And because the truth is while I'm at work, I get greater validation.
06:29Boss, you're good.
06:31Yep.
06:32You know, all of us want to feel loved.
06:34So somehow, doesn't mean I didn't get or receive the love from home,
06:39but I was very much focused at work.
06:43But I took a switch.
06:46My paradigm shifted.
06:50I repeat again.
06:51My paradigm shifted when I put self first, family second, career third.
07:01And when I do that, I get more energy and I feel loved.
07:07And when I feel myself loved and with the right energy,
07:11when I go back home, I spread the love to my family.
07:15It's radiating.
07:16And they're happy to see me.
07:19And because of that, they support me and that gives me all the energy I require back at work.
07:27So it's cyclical.
07:28Yes.
07:29It's a nice little ecosystem there.
07:30When I put self last, what happened?
07:32I was much heavier in terms of weight because I was slogging, clocking hours in the office
07:39because I'm so focused with office.
07:41And because of that, I get tired.
07:43Even when I go back home, you get to be a bit highly strung.
07:49You get agitated and so on.
07:51And what happened to the family?
07:53The children try to avoid you because I think daddy is not in the right mood.
07:57They have to predict the mood.
07:59But then I realized I was not doing it right.
08:03So when I change this, things fall in place.
08:06And the most interesting thing here is the money keeps flowing into you.
08:12So the money didn't change.
08:14In fact, it doubled.
08:15Right.
08:16Because you're a happy person.
08:17Yeah, positive energy.
08:19And when you move around, people are happy to be with you.
08:22Not only family, your business associates, your partners, relationship with anyone
08:28because you're doing the right thing and you're coming in from your heart.
08:32And because of such an ease, everybody works more effectively and money grew.
08:40That's fantastic.
08:42Although I have to ask, Ismail, that's not to discount the hard work that you did put in
08:48in the earlier years of building your business, right?
08:50I think beyond doubt, I suppose everyone works hard.
08:57That's given.
08:59I think if you ask me some definite ingredient for success, I would say it's discipline.
09:10And the right values, obviously.
09:12Because I don't think there's a shortcut.
09:16Anyone who's disciplined and work on it, it's just a matter of time.
09:21So I want to take you back to the time when you received your first ever cheque.
09:28Can you recall how much was that cheque worth?
09:33How did you feel when you were holding that cheque in your hands?
09:37That was when I sold my property.
09:40And when the law firm called me upon the completion and handed over the cheque
09:46under the name of my wife and myself.
09:49And for sure, even on those days, I'm talking about in the early 1990s,
09:56more than 30 years ago, it was more than $100,000.
10:03And holding on to the cheque is like, you know, the true feeling,
10:07even when you're walking out from the lawyer's office to the car park,
10:12you feel you're surrounded by Kenny G music.
10:18It's not that the feeling of being rich, that you feel like you have abundance,
10:23but you don't have a chance to feel that they are real.
10:26I'm glad you brought up your wife because I remember back in 1996,
10:31you opened up Norris Consultants with your wife.
10:36And obviously that eventually became Propnex.
10:39As a couple, what was your philosophy together when it came to money,
10:47both personally and professionally?
10:49Because it's one thing to manage your individual finances,
10:53but then you also are a working couple, you work together.
10:56So there's the professional finances to think about as well.
10:59I think, honestly, I'm truly blessed.
11:01And I also believe anyone to be successful, you need both the partner
11:05to be aligned in terms of money sense and values as well.
11:09My wife is not a spendthrift at all.
11:13When you were running the consultancy together,
11:15did you run into financial conflicts with one another,
11:19disagree on certain ways to run the business
11:22and how to manage the finances of that business?
11:26We never had an issue about managing the business finances.
11:31But obviously we do have, I won't say issues, agreement and disagreement
11:37the way the company needs to be run.
11:39I'm a very numbered person.
11:41In fact, when I look at numbers, it floats and tells me stories.
11:46When I open a financial statement, I know the health of it.
11:51Good or are we in trouble?
11:54Her strength is in terms of curriculum development.
11:58She has got masters in training development.
12:01So that's her strength.
12:03So we blend both our strengths when we started the company Norris Consultants
12:07and we named it as Norris because we coined after both our names.
12:13My wife's name is Noraini.
12:15So the first four letters is N-O-O-R and my name is Ismael, I-S.
12:20So that's how we started our real estate company.
12:23It's important for any couple to be on the same page
12:26to make sure that finances are on track.
12:29What's the one thing that you and your wife have in common
12:32when it comes to a financial habit?
12:35We have come to an agreement.
12:38We will not lend money to anyone.
12:42I'm not taking this opportunity because I'm talking about money.
12:46Because that is a source of friendship and relationship being broken.
12:52But we say that we can give money to people who are in need
12:56and we just bless them with the expectation not receiving it back.
13:02But if we receive it back, we take it as a blessing.
13:05If it is not at the start, we already say we have decided to give.
13:10Because the main reason here is this.
13:12This was our earlier days, even before we became an entrepreneur.
13:17Because I think money can be the root of the problem.
13:19And because of money and you feel so attached to money
13:23and then your emotions go all over, friendships can be ruined.
13:27So this is one agreement that we had.
13:29Whether it is for my friends, my side or her friends or her side.
13:33But if we ever decide to give, we don't need to consult each other.
13:37If it is within our range of pocket money for them to help with themselves
13:41and the family for a week's meal or what, no problem.
13:44If somebody wants to ask X amount of thousand dollars,
13:48we don't have the right to give.
13:50Unless we both of us discuss and then we think it's okay, then we can.
13:55So that's one part of it.
13:57The next part here is this.
13:59We never overstretch ourselves beyond our means.
14:06I always felt in order to create wealth, it is at least through my experience,
14:13it's very difficult to save money.
14:16But if you commit into a right asset class, while we are working harder,
14:22the property to keep appreciating with inflation.
14:27So every time when we sell, we unlock.
14:29You remember I said a couple of hundred thousand,
14:31but we never took the hundred or a thousand to went on a frenzy holiday or what.
14:37The bulk of it we reinvested into a higher value property.
14:42Obviously, we spent some, but bulk of it and we built the wealth
14:48until a time that we were able to sell multiple properties.
14:53Now we are in a position to decide how we want to manage our life.
14:58I think that's an incredible story.
15:00And some of that advice I wish I had when I was in my younger years.
15:04So thank you for that.
15:05I'm sure a lot of people will benefit from that.
15:08Andrea, I just want to say it's never too late.
15:10Trust me, it's never too late.
15:12I agree.
15:13Honestly, because a lot of people disqualify themselves that
15:18maybe I should have done in the past and now it's not the right time.
15:23I would strongly suggest to anyone.
15:28It really doesn't matter where you are right now,
15:31but it's to pause a moment and to reorganize as far as financial.
15:38First, start with a health check and what is the next step you want to take.
15:42And you'd be able to save a fair amount of money,
15:45but if you only know where to cut, what to cut.
15:48For example, some of us may be paying a monthly mortgage on our property
15:53that could be on a higher interest level.
15:56And by just taking a proactive approach to understand
16:00and speaking to a few other mortgage lenders,
16:03either your own bank to say that,
16:05Hey, I've been your loyal supporter over the last five years
16:09and I'm paying a much higher interest rates
16:12than the new people that you're trying to bring them on board.
16:15Can I have that similar treatment?
16:18The bank will give it to you.
16:19Everything can be negotiated.
16:21And if the bank don't want to give it to you
16:23and there's no reason why the bank won't,
16:25you shift to another bank, then you become their new darling.
16:28But you saved money.
16:31And it can go to a couple of hundreds of thousands
16:33depending on the amount of the load.
16:35This is only one aspect, right?
16:36But when we just pause a moment and look at all our finances,
16:40be it, is it a mobile plan?
16:43Maybe we see what data we're using and what we are not using.
16:47And some habits, whether is it out dining?
16:51If you just reorganize a bit, we can have some savings.
16:54So you have three children.
16:57They have grown up in a very different financial environment
17:02than you did in your childhood.
17:04So how did you teach them about money?
17:07I don't spoil them.
17:11What do you think?
17:13Maybe I just want to gauge myself.
17:15What do you think is fair?
17:17Someone who's 19 and going on 20,
17:22what is a fair amount of a monthly allowance?
17:26Wow, I don't know what kids spend on these days.
17:29I mean, they're very different from what I spent on
17:31when I was a 19-year-old.
17:35I'm going to go say a thousand, I would say.
17:39I mean, give and take inflation and the things that kids spend on.
17:43How about put my status and their expectations and so on?
17:48I'm going to say more than a thousand.
17:50How much?
17:52I think they're going to ask you for $3,000.
17:57I give them monthly $450.
17:59Wow, that's what I got when I was a teenager.
18:04So that's the same amount.
18:05Because the family, you have everything.
18:07The food is there on the table.
18:09Your $450 is just to spend on what you need.
18:14Unless, of course, you need to purchase something of necessity,
18:18I can give you for that amount.
18:20But you have to just tell me,
18:21Daddy, I need this.
18:23I need an iPad because it is broken.
18:25Or I need to buy something because I'm going to go for a certain event.
18:29I need this blazer.
18:31On a need basis, I'm prepared to spend.
18:34But as a pure cash in your hand,
18:37how you want to spend,
18:39I think you don't only give them.
18:42So basically, I want the children to know that money needs to be valued.
18:49And you should spend your budget within your means.
18:53And I'm happy.
18:54In this amount of money that I give, they still have a savings.
18:57Do you let them go to work part-time to earn extra money?
19:00Yes, my elder girl,
19:01earlier part of the year,
19:03Risha, my bigger right now,
19:04she's working for me for the last three years.
19:06She also graduated from UK.
19:10So when she came back,
19:11I put her through customer service operation for one year.
19:17Then she came back home sometime in tears.
19:21Why work is so difficult, Daddy?
19:24I said, Yes, darling.
19:26It's like that.
19:28Then she moved on to HR department right now.
19:32So I just want her to know that it is not an entitlement.
19:36Just because your daddy is a CEO,
19:38we have more financial comfort.
19:41No, people have to go through in every aspect.
19:45So that's why I felt that the value of money is important from young.
19:50Actually, I can choose to give all the money,
19:52but that's not the right values being taught to them.
19:56So you've been in real estate for over 30 years, Ismail.
19:59What are some of the common financial mistakes
20:02you've seen Singaporeans make when buying a home?
20:05Any purchase comes with emotion.
20:08So I would suggest that anybody,
20:11especially if you want to buy any big ticket item,
20:14home is definitely a big ticket item.
20:16And it could be some others.
20:17It could be a car and whatever it is.
20:20Let's not jump into it.
20:24Just looking at it in the first instance,
20:26and that will become too much of an emotional involvement.
20:30But on the other hand,
20:32we cannot detach emotions from any purchase
20:35because you must have a liking to be able to invest in that particular property.
20:40Always be prudent to buy within your means
20:44and always have a reserve for minimum six months.
20:48Ideal is one year.
20:50In the event you choose to leave your current job
20:53and restart something and you are not so stressed.
20:56I believe in something and a term that I use quite frequently
21:00is known as delayed gratification.
21:04Ah, yes.
21:05This is a weakness of people.
21:08Some of them tend to spend more
21:12than what they are capable or earn
21:16just to put a show to the world
21:19that they are so-called good enough.
21:23Ah, I have arrived.
21:26Buying branded goods,
21:28buying things that they have to pay on installment basis,
21:32choking up their credit cards.
21:36You know, these are the things that truly actually bleed
21:40your financial health over time.
21:44It may be easy because today there are so many lenders,
21:49either professional from the bank institution you go
21:52and they're prepared to give you as many credit lines
21:55or you will, I'm quite sure many of them will receive in the phone call
21:59friendly providers who will always want to say
22:03ready to give you ready cash.
22:05But all these things comes with a catch.
22:08And when you don't manage it right,
22:11the interest will kill a person.
22:14Yes.
22:15And you lose your peace.
22:16And that's where, as you said, family breakups also can take place.
22:20And as you said, you can't go to sleep at night
22:23having that burden in your mind, right?
22:25I think that's absolutely true.
22:26And I had to learn that the hard way myself, by the way.
22:30So Ismail, you always hear rich and successful people saying that
22:35money isn't everything.
22:38But those who are less well-off may perhaps say,
22:43well, that's because you already have that money.
22:47What do you say to that?
22:49I won't say easily money is not everything.
22:54Money is something.
22:57But money cannot be everything, okay?
23:01I mean, Steve Jobs had all the money, but it couldn't help him.
23:07And many of us, money cannot give us health.
23:13Money cannot absolutely give us joy.
23:17What is more important here is the contentment
23:21and non-attachment to money is important.
23:25Because I've seen families earning less than $5,000
23:29and they're happy.
23:32But I've seen families earning $50,000 combined and not happy.
23:40So where do we stop then?
23:42Yeah, correct.
23:43But money is important.
23:44If you say you don't even have money for the basic necessities,
23:48that's tough.
23:49And therefore, I will say the only way to get out of it,
23:53work harder, never give up, always believe that
23:58I am good enough kind of on a mental state,
24:02go out there and get that money for your basic necessities.
24:06But you want to go beyond that,
24:09then one day you can say money is not everything.
24:11Like most people say, that's okay, that's your call.
24:14When they reach that stage,
24:15maybe I'll go and find out what their secret is.
24:18Ismail, it's been such a fun conversation.
24:21I'm so glad that we were able to get you to sit in this seat
24:25and talk to us and share your life's experience with us
24:28on Money Talk.
24:29So thank you very much.
24:33We've come to the fun part.
24:34There are five random questions in here.
24:37I'm going to toss them up.
24:38Your question from the hat is,
24:43Oh, this is a good one.
24:45Especially after the conversation we just had.
24:48Ismail, what is pricey but always worth it?
24:53Wow, that's too deep.
24:56I will say real estate is always pricey.
25:01Yes, that's right.
25:02But why do I say it's always worth it?
25:05If you want to have a good retirement,
25:09if you want to be financially free,
25:12your property will continue to appreciate,
25:15provided it's the right property.
25:17And you will have all the wealth when the time is right.
25:22And you'll be a happy person.
25:23And outside of real estate,
25:25what would you deem as pricey but still worth it?
25:29What is most important here is this.
25:31The time that you give and make for your loved ones
25:37is truly pricey.
25:40And you cannot put a price tag to it.
25:43When the time passes on,
25:46you can't go and hug and carry your daughter
25:49because she has outgrown.
25:51You have a space, you have a line, you have respect.
25:55And these are moments that you can bring it
25:58all the way till your grave.
26:00So to me, such time that you can allocate is important.
26:06Values, respect, once sometimes broken,
26:12you can't take it back.
26:14So you can't measure it through money.
26:17Once more, thank you so much, Ismail Ghafour,
26:19for sitting in the hot seat on the Money Talks podcast today.
26:22Truly my pleasure, Andrea.
26:24Thank you as well for listening to us.
26:27And if you have any thoughts on what you've just heard,
26:32the offer is, feel free to drop us a comment.
26:35A shout out to the team.
26:36Here's Tiffany Ang, Joanne Chan, Junaini Johari, and Sayeh Wint.
26:40Our video editor, Hanida Amin.
26:43That's it for now.
26:44I will see you next week on the Money Talks podcast.