Several weeks ago we told you about the beloved beluga whale Hvaldimir who was found dead. Animal rights groups claim it was shot but a forensic examination has since concluded that “human activity” did not directly lead to the death of the animal. Hvaldimir rose to fame following rumours that he had been trained as a “spy” by Russia. But another story needs to be told: How he helped scientists decipher the language of whales. We speak to the people behind the upcoming documentary "#hvaldimir: the true story of the spy whale”.
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00:00Several weeks ago here on France 24, we told you about the beloved beluga whale called Valdimir,
00:05who was found dead. Animal rights groups say he was shot, but a forensic examination has
00:12since concluded that human activity did not directly lead to the death of the whale.
00:18Rather, he may have died of starvation. Well, Valdimir rose to fame when he appeared in Norwegian
00:25waters some five years ago with a camera strapped onto him, prompting some to think he may have been
00:32a spy trained by Russia. Well, Julia Seager, our science editor, is with me now to talk about this
00:39because, Julia, you were here a few months ago. You told us about this beluga whale then and you
00:45have an update for us. I do indeed. So back then we spoke about Valdimir because of the spy story.
00:51To sum up, as you said, he first appeared in the spring of 2019 equipped with this harness,
00:56a harness on which was indicated St. Petersburg equipment, and this is what fueled
01:03rumors that he may have been a spy and escaped from a Russian naval base. Now, just for the record,
01:09this doesn't come from nowhere. There were in the past and there could still be today
01:14these type of programs by the Russians. It happened during the Cold War, for instance,
01:18where they used dolphins and really trained them to learn how to place bombs underneath ships. But
01:24that was the sensational story. That's what made headlines. But there's much more to it. There's an
01:29untold story and it's being told in a documentary that's coming out on Wednesday here in France.
01:34It's called Valdimir, The True Story of the Spy Whale. And to speak more about it on set,
01:39I'm welcoming film director Jérôme de Lafosse. Hello and welcome. And Fabrice Chenaud, you're an
01:44engineer, a biologist and a pioneer in VR and the founder of Click Research. Hello and welcome to you
01:49as well. Now, the documentary actually tells the story of your encounter with Valdimir as a
01:55scientist. Now, you have dedicated your whole life to trying to decipher a little bit better the language
02:00of dolphins and whales. So we can just imagine when you discovered this whale on social media,
02:05who was looking to have an interaction with humans, that he was perhaps the key
02:12to the mystery you were trying to unlock? Yes, in fact, deciphering whale language or even just
02:18prove there is a whale language because we are not sure of it is incredibly difficult. In fact,
02:24you cannot just observe it from outside and try to make a dictionary of a language, speak of some
02:30sounds. You need some kind of collaboration. In fact, if you are going to China to learn Chinese,
02:35you need to have a Chinese friend and, you know, talk to each other. So a close interaction.
02:39Exactly. Collaboration. And it's incredibly difficult because these animals are very elusive.
02:44You know, you go in the ocean, they go for 10 seconds, one minute, two minutes. Most of the
02:48time, they don't make sound, you know, or you have a captive one. But, you know, they have a
02:52captive one. They were born in pools. This time, you have a whale that was born in the wild that
02:57knew the code of his language and also that wants to spend time with humans. And that's unique.
03:03So, Jérôme, you're the director of the documentary. You knew Fabrice from before,
03:08from another ocean adventure. What intrigued you here with this beluga? Why did you meet up with
03:14Fabrice and why did you want to film this? Yes. First, I met Fabrice years ago and I was
03:21really highly seduced by, I mean, his personality and his research. He's kind of a rocket scientist,
03:29which I like very much. And when I heard about Valdimir as millions of people around the world,
03:36you know, it was... It was a sensation on social media.
03:38Yeah, that was huge. And I just like saw that a few weeks after that Fabrice was there with the
03:44beluga whale. So it was really amazing. But at that point, I didn't see what I could do, you know,
03:52as a documentary filmmaker. I mean, everybody, everything was told about Valdimir. So when I
03:58started seeing Fabrice again, you know, I realized what he was working on and the potential of it.
04:07Yeah. And it's a unique story. I mean, it's a once in a lifetime topic for a documentary.
04:15Now, let's talk about this very first encounter. We see it in the documentary. It's
04:19quite amazing. Perhaps walk us through what happened. You were there in the region,
04:24not to see him, to study Orcas. But out of nowhere, here comes Valdimir.
04:29Yeah, he was sighted some 200 or 300 kilometers from our place. There was no way we could make
04:34this distance from our boat. And one day he just popped up in front of us, you know, like by magic.
04:42With a very, very cooperative behavior. He just came to play with us.
04:46He played catch with the ball. We see it in the pictures here that are on the screen.
04:51Yeah. But there's a little story behind the story. In fact, the crew was making a party
04:56because they just wanted to South African people that just won the World Cup of Rugby.
05:00And I think the Beluga just saw that all these people happy. He just wanted to be part of it,
05:05you know, because they have this ability, the will to feel our emotions and to want to
05:11have this emotion with us. And the day after we came back with the same ball
05:15and there was no party. And he didn't play with the ball. Exactly.
05:17So he was really attracted by the ambiance and the fact that you were celebrating.
05:22Yeah. With compared to a little kid, I want to be part of the other kid at school that I play,
05:27you know. Right. So the next step is that you get into the water and for the first time you
05:31actually get to see this Beluga, you realize how big the Beluga is. Let's take a look at
05:36what this first encounter looked like. We realized straight away that it's nothing
05:43like what we imagined. It's huge. I thought it was some kind of big dolphin, but it's a monster.
05:52It's four to five meters long. It weighs two tons with a head that moves weirdly like an alien.
06:02What's amazing is that it was actually reassuring and not aggressive at all.
06:06We started to bond and we even played.
06:20At one point we saw it's trying to take the cameras,
06:23so we had to grab them back because it could easily have stolen our cameras.
06:36And of course it did.
06:41What's interesting about that camera is that you get a frontal view,
06:44so Aldemir can see what it's filming.
06:49As I'm watching the footage, I'm thinking, does he realize that he's the one in the picture?
06:57That's probably the moment he maybe realized who he was and saw his
07:01picture for the first time. Fabrice, as a scientist, as I said, you were looking to decipher
07:06and know a little bit more about the language of whales. But when you encountered Valdemir,
07:11he was actually quite mute. He didn't make a lot of vocalization, maybe because he was trained to
07:16be a spy. That we won't really know the end of that story. But he actually made a first sound
07:21when he was badly injured. And that's when you really started being able to record his vocalizations.
07:27And what did you learn from that?
07:30I think it's always the same. You need to make this animal understand what you want to do,
07:34and then they can join you and collaborate on this. I found recently with dolphins that they
07:40use names like us, and this is something that was scientifically proven like eight years ago.
07:47And they use it with other dolphins. What I did, I just showed that they use it with us also. And
07:52when you repeat their name to these animals, they are just amazed. You say,
07:56wow. And they start to talk, you know. So you made him listen to his own name.
08:00Exactly. So if you find a good dolphin, you said his name, and it's the same if a dolphin
08:05comes to you and says, Juliet, you will be, wow. I would be indeed quite amazed. We can actually
08:11listen in, Nadia, if I may. We can listen in to the name of Valdemir in Beluga language.
08:17Let's take a listen.
08:35Different frequency, but the frequency we use, and we are not able to emit in this frequency.
08:39So you need a technological part in between a computer and a hydrophone. But I mean,
08:45what you can do after is remit that name and just make him understand, OK, I got it. This is your
08:50name. I know it. And then the animal understands that you are trying to make contact. And then
08:53something changes. But with Valdemir, it was a bit more difficult than that. You know, you need
08:59something like also an emotional link. You know, it's not just emitting sound. It's just being
09:04friends. Because why would he want to help you, you know? And my way was a scientific way. And
09:11what we explained in the documentary is that we made that emotional bond with my daughter playing,
09:17you know. So she came with a much more playful approach, and she was able to really create
09:23another type of bond with Valdemir. Exactly. I mean, all mammals, they learn from playing,
09:28you know. That's what do children. And I think the same with our mammals, you know. And then
09:33we needed something more emotional that just come with all our scientific equipment, you know,
09:38and really to solve that look very seriously. And your scientific method as well. Exactly.
09:42Exactly. You need to go somehow with your children mind to make the contact. Yeah. And he wants to
09:47collect data. His daughter just want to have fun, you know. And I think Valdemir could feel that,
09:52you know, she wasn't expecting anything else than just play. Right. So we're almost at the
09:58end of this interview. But perhaps one last question. What is the main message you would
10:02want people to remember after watching your documentary? I think the thing we want to
10:09address in this documentary is animal consciousness and maybe the dead eye we have of it. And I think
10:14Valdemir is the best example that can make us change our mind because he is really, you know,
10:20making the frontier between human and animal very blurry. Jérôme? Yes, I hope you know that
10:27Valdemir was found dead, you know, in Norway like a few weeks ago. And I hope that it wasn't for
10:35nothing. Yes, that if life with us and death will help to just realize how important they are to us
10:45and to the ocean as well. You know, people need to think about protecting and repairing, you know,
10:50what we've been doing to the oceans. And it starts by animals. Just on the death of Valdemir,
10:56we'll have to wait and see because the autopsy, the final autopsy is set to come out in a few
11:01days, but it's still quite blurry what actually happened to him. Thank you both to the two of you.
11:06I'd like to just remind our viewers that it's going to be broadcast for the first time on the
11:09French channel Canal this Wednesday. Thank you very much indeed to the both of you. Thanks.
11:15All right, and that wraps it up for this rather unusual but fascinating segment here
11:20on Around the World this afternoon. Thanks again to Jérôme De La Fosse and to Fabrice Schnell.
11:25Thank you both very much indeed. Judith Sieger, thanks to you as well. Time for a
11:28quick break after this. It is France In Focus. Bye from us.