Bobby Manning welcomes Mike Curtis from the Dallas Morning News to preview the Mavs after their loss vs the Celtics in the 2024 NBA Finals. After Dallas acquired Klay Thompson and shook up their wing position this summer, could the Mavericks return to the Finals vs. Boston for a Finals rematch?
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00:00Hey, Bobby Manning here. Welcome to a Monday edition of the Garden Report. One day from Celtics training camp starting with media day tomorrow morning.
00:12And we'll have plenty to talk about when it comes to all the interviews, all the news we get tomorrow.
00:19And we'll have plenty of live coverage for CLNS Media, everybody on the ground there tomorrow. Noah, Rich, Amit, we'll all be down there covering it all.
00:32And first, I want to continue our Celtics Rivals series, the first team in the West that we're doing here on the Garden Report.
00:39And why not do the team that we just watched the Celtics face off with last in the NBA Finals.
00:45The team that Jason Tatum said on Jimmy Fallon, they'll be facing again in the finals this year and entering his first full year on the beat.
00:55Mike Curtis, Dallas Morning News. Mike, great to have you here.
01:02How excited are you for this season? How much are you looking forward to covering this team in full this year after that mad dash to the finish last year?
01:10Yeah, man, I don't think you can get much better than the NBA Finals, but I'm definitely looking forward to the season, especially with all the additions the Mavericks have brought in.
01:21We're going to talk a little bit about Clay Thompson and what he brings to the team.
01:24But they also got Najee Marshall and Quentin Grimes. They brought back Spencer Dinwiddie.
01:31You add that to a group that already has Luka, Donchish, Kyrie Irving, a guy like Derrick Lively is going to be emerging in his second year.
01:40So I'm looking forward to seeing how the pieces all fit together and to see if they can get back to the finals, probably to face the Celtics.
01:51Yeah, for sure. And I think that possibility is going a little bit underrated.
01:55If we throw it back to a year ago, Dallas, they make the Grant Williams addition that ends up being like a big defensive piece.
02:03They're hoping they fit into the lineup and, you know, give them some balance on both ends of the floor.
02:08It didn't work out, made a lot of midseason moves that ended up positioning them to make a finals run.
02:14And you look back at Gafford and P.J. Washington and some of the moves and additions they made there.
02:19It gave them that great balance. So bring it to this year.
02:24Obviously, I think most people are going to give them more of a possibility after going to the finals to get there again, even in a loaded conference.
02:33But I don't think there'll be many people's pick. And I think the big swing guy, as you mentioned, is going to be Clay Thompson.
02:40Obviously, you know what Luke is capable of after a near MVP season from him and a finals run.
02:45Kyrie redeemed himself in many ways last year with his play.
02:49And now Clay comes in here after a rough finish to his Warriors tenure, ups and downs over the last handful of years following the two big injuries, but a fresh start.
03:01And he seems excited about it. Obviously, he's been watching the tapes of the finals run out there, all that.
03:07And at his best, he's shown to be shades of that old clay in spots.
03:13But obviously, the defense has taken a hit. We'll see what his role is going to be here.
03:18Obviously, he's probably going to have to take a step back from how massive a role he had with the Warriors earlier in his career.
03:25So that's going to be like I would throw it right up there with the 10 most interesting things to watch for going into this NBA season.
03:33Because if he can be 80% even of the old clay, that's a massive addition for this team.
03:41And if the defense works with him in that lineup, you're looking at a team that might be the favorite to make the finals again here.
03:47But age, injuries, some of the defensive things we saw from him and the fact that he's not playing with the best two defensive guards, period here in Luke and Kyrie, I do think raises some questions here.
04:00How do you see his role playing out? How do you see the fit of clay in Dallas?
04:06Yeah, you mentioned it right there. If he can be 80% of what he once was in Golden State, a guy that can pretty much catch and shoot with the best that ever played this game.
04:19He's a career 41% three point shooter. Only time he's shot less than, excuse me, 40% in his career from three were these past two seasons in Golden State, which obviously came after the two major leg injuries that he's still trying to work back from and kind of gain into his full form.
04:40I think when you got a guy like Clay Thompson, he adds a different dynamic offensively to this Mavericks team.
04:47Obviously, you have got two guys like Luca and Kyrie who are pretty ISO heavy. They're going to get a lot of attention.
04:54He's going to be a beneficiary of those open shots that were generated last year from guys like Derrick Jones Jr. PJ Washington.
05:04A lot of those guys were in the corner when Luca and Kyrie drew those double and triple teams. Now you got a guy like Clay Thompson who's going to be able to get open, clean looks and all he has to do is knock him down.
05:18I think defensively, that is something to keep an eye on. Can he move the way he used to when he was in his prime? Probably not, especially after those injuries.
05:28But if he can just play solid defense and stay in front of a guy, he doesn't have to guard the best perimeter player offensively on a nightly basis.
05:38I think that will be left to guys like PJ Washington and Najee Marshall. I even think you see Derrick Lively joining that mix as well.
05:48If he's able to just be solid, I think the Mavericks will get everything they wanted when they did that sign-and-trade for Clay.
05:57I understand wanting to bring in a guy who has championship pedigree, wanting to bring in a future Hall of Famer since he wants to come to you. They obviously recruit him pretty heavily there.
06:09I also like it coming in tandem with Marshall coming in. That was an underrated move. I think a necessary move to balance that out a little bit.
06:16Clay almost certainly starts to begin the year. We'll see how it goes. I do think there's a case for him to come off the bench. Maybe that ends up happening eventually.
06:29When you look at how last year went, he ended up going from a more offensive-leaning team to a team that had perimeter defenders that you could throw at guys.
06:38Derrick Jones Jr. being the big one that emerged as a starter there. He's out the door here. You hope Marshall can replace some of the stuff he brought.
06:46A better shooter certainly too. Maybe there's a chance that he's a better fit than Jones was.
06:52Josh Green goes out the door over the summer as well. That's another guy with some perimeter defensive skill there who's gone.
07:00Again, Thompson, you know he's not going to be the defender he used to be. It's not going to happen.
07:07Is there some way to scheme? Is there some way to make? It's essentially three guards. I think that's the problem more than anything there.
07:14I know Clay's a bigger guy, but you're playing three guards effectively. Three guys that defenses can pick on.
07:20In the past, Ellis has had defensive issues. Jason Kidd has done a better job of scheming to make it work and emphasizing that side of the ball.
07:29He's going to have to do that again, even with those three stars in the lineup there.
07:34If it's not going to work defensively, it's going to be a challenge for them to win consistently, I feel like.
07:40Yeah, it's interesting. When you look at it, when you talk about playing three guards, obviously Luka has the size of small four with him being 6'7".
07:51Kyrie obviously has the mold of a one and Clay obviously has the mold of a two guard.
07:59I think you'll probably see Kyrie stick to the ones, Clay stick to the twos, and Luka may play against some fours if you slide PJ over to guard the three position.
08:12Just depending on how the matchups work. Everyone knows it's two different games on offense and defense.
08:19When they're on offense, it's going to be like you've got three primary guys who can shoot the ball.
08:25Just going forward, it's going to be up to Jason Kidd and the rest of that coaching staff to scheme and figure out where to put Clay on both ends of the ball.
08:36Starting off, like you said, we'll definitely see him in that starting lineup just because you don't give a guy that much money and bring him off the bench.
08:45Especially if he's coming in with an edge. He wants to remind everyone that he's still the player that he once was.
08:54He can still shoot the ball with the best of them. I think he's going to come in with that chip on his shoulder and take on those challenges defensively.
09:02He can also embrace more of that catch and shoot role. He doesn't have to create as much here.
09:09He can rely on those two guys who are going to get enormous pressure, Luka especially, and just take a ton of wide open shots.
09:16That might lead to a more efficient season on its own for him from three.
09:21Like you said, he's dipped below 40 a little bit these last couple of years.
09:24I think he's had some spots where he's gone through some slumps and has had to try to shoot himself out of some lows there.
09:30I think there'll just be more good rhythm here. I like to fit offensively for sure, especially playing with those two guards.
09:36This is the most open he's ever been by far, even playing next to Curry for all those years out there and Durant.
09:42He still might be more open in this situation here, which is amazing to think about, especially with those rim runners.
09:48I like that fit for sure there, but it's the defense again.
09:53I want to look back at the finals a little bit because that was a big story there too.
09:57Their defensive posture, their ability to guard a Tatum, guard a Brown.
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11:42So let's throw it back Mike.
11:44Three months ago, more or less, the finals.
11:48A short series, some good games in Dallas.
11:51An overwhelming game 4 that gave Dallas a little bit of hope that they could get back in it.
11:55But then they just got overwhelmed in that game 5 that the Celtics ended up clinching their 18th championship on that night.
12:02Still a crazy night to look back on.
12:04And a series that some people thought Dallas could win.
12:08I think it was pretty split nationally.
12:10People thought that they had two of the best players in the series so that could drive them.
12:15But it ends up being that depth.
12:17Sam Hauser hits 11 threes in that series.
12:20Horford does his thing. Porzingis comes in for a couple games.
12:23The game won especially there.
12:25And it just ended up being the depth of Boston that was too much for Dallas to handle.
12:29But also the amount of guys that they could throw at Luka.
12:33Tire him out.
12:35He was trying to go at the Hausers and Pritchers of the world.
12:37And they were able to stand up against him.
12:39And it just ended up being a really frustrating series for Luka in particular.
12:42Kyrie too who had his struggles throughout that series.
12:45When you look back now with some of the changes they made over the offseason.
12:50What needs to go differently if these two teams were to meet again in the finals.
12:55Or just in general for this year for Dallas to reach that championship level.
13:00Yeah I think a lot of things have to go right for this team.
13:05You look at last year.
13:07I don't think they were favored in any of the series that they played.
13:12You look at the Clippers series.
13:14Obviously they went against a team without Kawhi Leonard.
13:18With Kawhi Leonard I think a lot of national media probably thought that the Clippers would beat Dallas.
13:23You look against the OKC series in the second round.
13:27A lot of teams thought that they were the number one team in the West.
13:31So obviously they were the big favorites.
13:34You had Shea Gildress Alexander playing at an MVP like level.
13:38Along with Chet Holmgren coming in and being a force on both sides of the ball.
13:43And then obviously against the Minnesota Timberwolves.
13:46I don't think anyone, myself included, who was covering the team for the last few weeks.
13:51Thought that the Mavericks would go up 3-0 on the Timberwolves.
13:56The way they were playing.
13:58Just beating the Denver Nuggets.
14:00Upsetting them.
14:02And then obviously going against the Suns.
14:04I think they had a stride and a confidence that I wasn't sure that could be matched against the Mavericks.
14:12So they ended up overcoming the odds in each of those first three series.
14:16And then they ran out of gas in the finals against the Celtics.
14:20I don't think they had enough depth like you mentioned.
14:23I don't think they had enough help on the offensive end outside of Luka Doncic.
14:29He pretty much was a one man band.
14:31He was out there playing hurt.
14:33Playing with a chest contusion that he needed injections for.
14:37I think a lot of people thought that Kyrie would be the one that kind of eased the pressure.
14:46Even the series.
14:48Because you got Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown over on the other side.
14:51And you got two stars in Luka and Kyrie.
14:53But Kyrie never found his footing in that series.
14:56And he said it on record.
14:59I think he was screaming a few weeks ago that he took accountability for it.
15:04That he didn't play up to his standard.
15:06And when it comes down to it, adding a guy like Klay, who gives you a third scoring option,
15:15will kind of equalize things a little bit.
15:18But you're still going to have to go through a gauntlet of a Western Conference.
15:22OKC just reloaded.
15:24They got Isaiah Hartenstein.
15:26They got Alex Caruso to add to what was already a really good team.
15:32Especially defensively.
15:34Minnesota is going to come back.
15:36They have a shifty new point guard in Rob Dillingham.
15:41That I'm sure Mike Conley is going to take under his wing.
15:44And Anthony Edwards is just going to get better.
15:47Especially after the Olympics experience that he just had.
15:51Denver is going to stay in the mix, obviously.
15:53You got to think about the Memphis Grizzlies who are going to welcome back Ja Morant.
15:59They're going to be right there in the mix.
16:00So the Mavericks are going to have their hands full in terms of getting back to the finals.
16:06I think it can happen.
16:08I think it's going to take a good deal of chemistry coming together.
16:13They're going to start training camp here in Las Vegas starting on Tuesday.
16:17They're going to spend four days out there.
16:19They just want to get some continuity between the team.
16:25Similar to what they did last year at Abu Dhabi when they started training camp over there.
16:30It's going to take a total team effort.
16:33Health is going to have to be on their side as well in order to get back.
16:37The West is crazy, obviously.
16:40This is the first team we're looking at in our series here out West.
16:43I think under a popular pick to lead the conference next year,
16:48probably the most talented roster and the one seed from a year ago.
16:52You give them the benefit of the doubt out there.
16:55The team that gave Dallas a good run too in that series.
16:58I think it almost feels inevitable that those two teams are going to end up meeting up again at some point.
17:04I think Minnesota, Denver, even after some of their losses, is fair.
17:08That's three competitors right there that could already push you down to four.
17:13Then you've got some real wild cards, the Clippers.
17:16What are they going to look like health-wise?
17:18Phoenix. I actually like Phoenix going into this year.
17:20I like some of the changes they made.
17:22I think they'd be a tough matchup for Dallas if that was going to be a 4-5 round one.
17:26And then New Orleans.
17:28They're fully healthy, fully loaded.
17:31They've shown to be a top-tier West team within the past handful of years here.
17:37There's always the potential that they're banged up or not finding things right defensively.
17:42They lost Valanchunas too, which was a real loss.
17:45They could be a playing team or even just drop out of that top eight entirely.
17:49The Lakers are the Lakers. Kings of the Kings.
17:52I feel pretty good about Dallas being in that top six at the very least there.
17:56Which is good for them.
17:58But an injury, a bad week or two.
18:01Things are going to be so tight in that conference that it's tough to tell exactly where you're going to land at the end.
18:06It's always going to be a good bet that any of these teams, even the Thunder.
18:12It's such a tough conference that there's probably a bigger chance for any of these teams going into the year
18:18that you're not going to make the finals than the chance that you are.
18:21But what's good for Dallas, and I said this about them last year too.
18:25Luka can just win a series.
18:28And that's pretty much what he did throughout all those series last year.
18:32He's going to be the best player in pretty much any series except a Denver one.
18:36And even he is as equipped as anyone to put out the stat output, the overall production that Jokic does.
18:44And I think he's as daunting of a one-on-one matchup for him in that spot as anyone in the league.
18:50So I'm not going to look at them in any series.
18:53Even in that Celtics one a year ago where I felt pretty good about Boston.
18:57The one thing you said is if Luka goes crazy, if he takes over this series, if he's healthy, especially you mentioned the injury.
19:03They can win any series.
19:05And that's still the one I have my gripes about this team.
19:08I have a lot of questions about this team.
19:10But he can just win a series.
19:12And that's a really special thing to have.
19:13If you're talking about guys who can do that, it's probably just Jokic, Giannis, and Luka.
19:20I think that's it in terms of guys who can just win a series on their own.
19:23You need more help than that to win a championship.
19:26You can have a question here.
19:28Is he carrying too much weight on his shoulders to be able to go the distance when he's doing that much for this team?
19:35Obviously, I think you saw the fatigue by the end of that run last year.
19:39But that's a special thing that this team has.
19:41And there's a lot of questions around him.
19:43But you got to be high on his ability to just give them a chance in any series.
19:48Yeah, that's what they depend on him on a nightly basis for is to go in and do exactly what Luka does.
19:56Score, facilitate, rebound.
19:59You're guaranteed going to get almost triple-double from him on a nightly basis.
20:04And he's one of the most gifted scorers we've ever seen.
20:08He has the footwork.
20:11He has the ball handling.
20:13He's a big body, so he can absorb contact.
20:16He can shoot.
20:18What surprised you most when you came down from Detroit, once you got to be around him day to day?
20:24How in control he is.
20:28I don't think I noticed that.
20:30Every time I saw him the previous two times when he came to Detroit over the last two years,
20:35he always seemed to wow you with how in control he is.
20:42He's not the most athletic.
20:46He's not the fastest.
20:48You know exactly what he's going to do, yet you can't stop it.
20:51A lot of defenders can't stop him.
20:54He has an innate ability to get to the free throw line, draw fouls,
20:58even though he probably wish he got there a little bit more.
21:00I think it's interesting just his overall talent.
21:05That step back is very lethal.
21:08Even though everyone knows it's coming, he's able to knock that down and get that shot off,
21:13especially over taller defenders like we saw against Rudy Gobert in that Timberwolves series.
21:19I think that's pretty much what stood out to me the most,
21:23just the fact that he's so much in control and there's not a lot you can do to throw him off his game.
21:28He has to throw himself off his game.
21:31Whether he's getting into a shallow match with the referees
21:36or not getting back on defense because he's complaining about a call.
21:39I think that's what hinders him the most,
21:42but he can pretty much do whatever he wants to do on a nightly basis.
21:46What do you think the Celtics did effectively against him?
21:50Because they were able to swallow him and tire him out through that series.
21:56Yeah, they were sending body after body against Luka.
22:00He looks up, he has Jason Tatum on him one moment,
22:04then he has Jalen Brown on him, pounding him and Kyrie for the majority of that series.
22:10Cristal Prezingis was also guarding him at one point, and I think Al Horford as well.
22:15The fact that you were able to throw so many different looks at him.
22:21This is one of the reasons why I voted Jalen Brown for MVP,
22:26because he guarded Luka for most of that series and he did it on both ends of the floor.
22:31It's hard to do that.
22:33It's hard to be productive on both ends of the floor, offense and defense,
22:38when you're trying to score as much for your team,
22:41especially while Jason Tatum didn't have it a little bit early on in the series.
22:45And then you're also giving the same amount of effort
22:48to stop an offensive juggernaut like Luka Doncic.
22:51So I think that pretty much was the difference maker.
22:54And I think Boston knew that the Mavericks didn't have the depth,
22:59they didn't have the options,
23:01they didn't have a lot of pieces that would be able to,
23:04I guess, affect the game offensively.
23:08So if we just shut down Luka, then everything else will be okay.
23:12So I think that was a big difference maker as well.
23:15Yeah, and that was a little surprising because going into it,
23:18you're like, all right, you might have to just let Luka get his
23:21and then, you know, shut down everybody else
23:24and live with Luka scoring 30, 40, maybe even 50 points,
23:27make him a scorer.
23:29But they limited him and they put pressure on him and they wore him out.
23:32The final numbers for Brown in that series against him,
23:35obviously, like you said, ended up being finals MVP in large part because of that effort.
23:38Nine for 22, which is about as effective as you can probably be on him.
23:45Logging 154 possessions in 32 minutes over the five games there Jalen did.
23:51So I was still a little surprised.
23:54So I think after game three, Brown hits that big shot late.
23:58Celtics go up three, nothing.
24:00If the series ends right there, I'm probably like, all right,
24:04Brown's probably the MVP.
24:05Game four, you know, it was game four, kind of a throwaway game.
24:10Both Tatum and Brown struggled in that game.
24:13So I still think Brown's in a good position coming out of there.
24:17But game five, Tatum comes out in the first half with the nine assists,
24:22I think it was, into halftime, manipulating that defensive approach
24:27that the Mavs had on him, which I want to talk a little bit about too.
24:30And it made me think coming out of that game, I'm like, all right,
24:33Tatum didn't shoot well at all in this series.
24:36I think it was like 38, like 26 from three.
24:39He really struggled from the field.
24:41But the passing was so good throughout.
24:43He was the point of attack guy.
24:45Sometimes he had like three bodies around him at the rim, and he's just
24:48firing out pass after pass after pass out of there.
24:51And I think a lot of that, you know, allowed Brown to do what he was able
24:54to do in that series.
24:56So I was Brown, Brown, Brown, Brown, all the way through like four games
24:59and then game five ends.
25:00And I'm like, all right, nine assists in the first half.
25:03Big game, you know, as the Celtics close it out.
25:06The best player per se on the best team almost always wins this award.
25:11So not only did I feel coming out of that game, if I had a vote, I would
25:15have voted Tatum. But when I went downstairs to watch the ceremony
25:19after, I'm like, it's going to be Tatum.
25:21So Silver goes up, he's like Jalen Brown.
25:24And I was like, whoa, I couldn't believe it.
25:26And he couldn't believe it either, it looked like.
25:27And I think, what was the final vote?
25:29Seven to four?
25:31Yeah, there were three or four votes for Tatum.
25:35Yeah, it was, it was something like that.
25:38Brown ended up winning by a solid margin.
25:40Like you said, you voted for Brown.
25:42What swung you to say?
25:44Was it tough?
25:46Did you talk to anyone about it?
25:48Kind of, you know, pick some people's brains about like what led you
25:50to that decision?
25:52Yeah, it was definitely tough.
25:54If it was up to me, like you mentioned early on in the season,
25:59early on in the series, I was turning towards Brown anyway.
26:03But then Tatum had the big game five, obviously.
26:09I don't think he or Brown had a really good game four.
26:13But like you mentioned, Tatum was, he didn't shoot the ball well,
26:18but he was doing everything he could for his team.
26:20Just from a facilitation standpoint, I thought he was outstanding.
26:25What really swayed it for me was the fact that he,
26:29that Jalen was able to do it on both ends of the floor.
26:32Like it came down to defense for me.
26:34I didn't look at it from a points, rebounds, assists, average,
26:40which people tend to do.
26:42They look at the average for the series and be like,
26:44oh, that's, that's the finals MVP.
26:46I didn't look at it from that standpoint.
26:47I just think about who impacted this series most.
26:51I look at game one.
26:53I think Cristos Brazilius had a really profound impact,
26:56but Jalen Brown was right there.
26:58I think game two, Drew Holiday had a really big impact on that game.
27:03Jalen Brown was still there.
27:05And then he was just that constant that I looked at,
27:09in terms of who's impacting this series the most.
27:13So that's why I went with Jalen Brown.
27:14I did talk to a lot of other national writers at halftime,
27:19just to see where the consensus was.
27:22And we were able to have a couple of conversations
27:26that kind of led to that decision.
27:28But it was, I think, overarching.
27:30It was Jalen Brown for sure.
27:32But you can't take away from what Jason Tatum did in that final game.
27:36It sealed the series.
27:3831 points, 11 assists, eight rebounds.
27:41He made all eight of his free throws.
27:42Didn't shoot the best, but he still got a championship out of it.
27:47So you weren't surprised when they said Brown?
27:50No, I wasn't.
27:54Well, I want to talk a little bit more about Tatum
27:57after our little break here to tell you about game time.
28:01And basketball will be back in about a month.
28:04But right now, again, it's football season,
28:06college games over the weekend.
28:08I'll be going up to Syracuse before allowing to see the Orange,
28:10even though took a tough loss last week against Stanford.
28:15And then Patriots, there's some deals out there.
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28:21Maybe May's going to start in a week or two here.
28:23See what he's made of.
28:25You're in Dallas.
28:27You're reading, Mike.
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29:42So Tatum.
29:44I've had this conversation a million times.
29:46It's kind of getting old at this point,
29:48but weird summer for him.
29:50The benching.
29:52Some disrespect, slight about his performance
29:54through the playoffs, the shooting,
29:56whatever else it might have been.
29:58Obviously not winning MVP either.
30:00Kind of a weird place for a guy like him
30:02who, like you said, played pretty solid
30:04despite some poor shooting numbers in the finals
30:06and led his team to a championship in many ways.
30:08So I'm interested.
30:10These preseason lists always come out.
30:12I have to imagine he'll be like 5, 6, 7
30:14on a lot of them.
30:16I ended up having him 5.
30:18But I talked about it with Keith Pompey last week.
30:20He and Embiid are in that same position.
30:23Not quite like the top, top caliber players
30:25in the league.
30:27The three or four guys that we mentioned earlier.
30:29Luka among them.
30:31But right in that mix, right below it.
30:33And when I was building my list
30:35going into this year,
30:36I actually stopped at Luka and Tatum.
30:38And I'm like, alright,
30:40obviously the numbers favor Luka.
30:42The output, the load he's able to handle,
30:44all that.
30:46So I think almost anyone would position Luka
30:48ahead of Tatum.
30:50But Tatum's team just beat Luka's.
30:53You get more defense from Tatum.
30:56Tatum took a leap as a passer.
30:58And even though I think Luka's probably
31:01going to finish considerably ahead of him
31:03in an MVP race this year
31:04for a lot of different reasons.
31:06He didn't quite pass him, I'd say.
31:09But I do think Tatum probably closed the gap
31:11a little bit on Luka in my mind.
31:13And I actually thought for a second
31:15about ranking him over Luka.
31:17But I just couldn't do it with the stats
31:19and the output.
31:21And again, the weight that Luka has to carry
31:23for this Dallas team.
31:25How do you weigh those two against each other
31:27at this point in their careers?
31:29Oh, that's a good one.
31:31When you sent me that topic,
31:32I was like, oh,
31:34that's a really good conversation.
31:36Because when you look at it right now,
31:39I think Tatum has the better resume
31:42all because of that championship.
31:44That championship and that Olympic gold medal
31:46kind of separates him from
31:48the regular season production
31:51that Luka Dosic brings
31:53pretty much on a nightly basis.
31:55When it comes to numbers
31:57and production,
31:59you can count on Luka for
32:0030, 10, 10 every night.
32:04But he hasn't gotten over the hump
32:07with playoff success
32:09and obviously international success,
32:11even though he's been playing
32:13since he was a teenager.
32:15When it comes to just...
32:17And when you look at how
32:19Luka performs with his Olympic team,
32:21without Luka,
32:23that Slovenia is not
32:25an Olympic team that can pretty much
32:27contend with the likes of
32:28the United States,
32:30Canada, Germany,
32:32those kind of upper tier teams.
32:35But when it comes to head to head,
32:38I think you just got to
32:40go with your preference.
32:42Do you want a guy who can pretty much
32:44fill it up on the offensive end?
32:46You want a guy who can
32:48also score,
32:50maybe not in mass
32:52or bulk production,
32:54but do you want a guy who can
32:56also rebound and defend,
32:58something that Tatum has proven
33:00himself to do,
33:02just with that long list,
33:04that long frame that he has.
33:06So I think you just got to
33:08go with whatever your preference is.
33:10At this stage of their careers,
33:12I think
33:14overall,
33:16I would say Tatum is the better player
33:18and I will say Luka is the better
33:20offensive player.
33:22It's just like the conversation
33:24that they had in the finals,
33:26is Luka and Kyrie the best
33:28offensively,
33:31but overall,
33:33I think you got to give it to
33:35the groups or the duos
33:37that have won championships together
33:39and that have had a little bit more success
33:41when it really mattered.
33:43I think it's a conversation for sure.
33:45They're in that weird tier.
33:47I think when you look at the top
33:49seven players in the NBA,
33:51you can look at
33:53the first four are probably international.
33:54Kolioky,
33:56Luka Doncic,
33:58Giannis Antetokounmpo,
34:00Gildas Alexander in there,
34:03Joel Embiid,
34:05I think that top five
34:07could be all international
34:09and then you can get to
34:11Jason Tatum,
34:13Kevin Durant, LeBron,
34:15Steph, that's nine.
34:17It just depends.
34:19There's a lot of players out there.
34:22I think when you take a look
34:24at Luka and Tatum,
34:26they're kind of in that same tier.
34:29Yeah, and there's so many ways
34:31to rank it too.
34:33I love emphasizing defense in it.
34:35So that's where I give Tatum a little bit
34:37of the benefit of the doubt
34:39despite the streakiness.
34:41I went Jokic, Giannis,
34:43Luka, Shea, Tatum, Embiid.
34:45Again, we talked about that Embiid
34:47thing last week.
34:49Probably more output than Tatum.
34:51Probably carries more weight than Tatum
34:52night to night.
34:54But Tatum's just beaten him
34:56so many times
34:58in series and regular season games.
35:00It's tough to put him over him.
35:02And then, you know,
35:04you mentioned a lot of veterans,
35:06but Wemba Nyama's going to probably be there
35:08in that conversation this year.
35:10So that's coming.
35:12And I'm interested,
35:14I was looking at the analytical aspect
35:16of this and I love these Darko charts
35:18that kind of like show
35:20your trajectory night to night.
35:22Over the course of your career.
35:24And Tatum,
35:26I was very surprised by this
35:28because, again, I think everything you said
35:30was valid and I felt similar about it
35:32ranking Luka ahead of him.
35:34But analytically, on off,
35:36you know, counting offense
35:38and defense,
35:40Tatum's got a little bit of an edge.
35:42And, you know, a decent margin there
35:45in terms of the analytics.
35:47And again, just one model here,
35:49not the gospel.
35:50I was surprised to see Tatum
35:52over Luka in this model.
35:54And again, if we put it on offense,
35:56Luka gets a little bit of an edge there.
35:59Still pretty close.
36:01And then it's the defense that
36:03is where, you know,
36:05Luka really takes a hit
36:07in the comparison between these two guys.
36:09And it tells a story.
36:11Luka's got to improve his defense,
36:13I think, to win a championship.
36:15And Tatum,
36:18like he's been a high,
36:20offensive player to this point in his career.
36:22But then the playoffs and the finals,
36:24that shot disappeared from him a little bit.
36:27So if he's going to have to stay at this level,
36:29to stay in this level for this team,
36:31he's got to find that offensive consistency.
36:34But two similar age guys,
36:36two guys at a similar caliber in this league,
36:39two guys who just faced in the finals.
36:41And, you know, like I said,
36:43Tatum was saying on Fallon
36:45that he thinks they'll face again.
36:47Maybe just the easiest answer to that question.
36:48They're close.
36:50I think they're closer than most people would think
36:52based on the stat sheet.
36:54Yeah, I think Tatum's going to come back this year
36:56looking, just looking for vengeance.
36:59I think the fact that he won a championship
37:03but was kind of slighted with the USA experience
37:06wasn't able to kind of show
37:08that he got impact on the team
37:10with several Hall of Famers,
37:12specifically LeBron, Steph, and KD.
37:15I think he thought that he was probably
37:18deserving to be among the rotation.
37:20And I think he's going to take it out
37:22on the rest of the league.
37:24I, for one, can't wait until
37:26the Celtics and the Warriors
37:28face off twice this year.
37:30I think he's going to try to go for 40
37:32in both of those games
37:34and maybe Jalen Brown as well
37:36because he was left off the team as a whole.
37:38So I'm looking forward to seeing
37:40what they're able to do.
37:42I'm looking forward to seeing, like,
37:45they're bringing the same team back.
37:46They're bringing it back with the same group.
37:48Can they have the same amount of success
37:52that they had last year?
37:54And if not, which team will kind of threaten
37:58their Eastern Conference championship,
38:01NBA Finals championship?
38:03Will it be the Knicks who retool?
38:06Will it be the Bucs who will have
38:09another season under Giannis in-game?
38:12Will it be Philly who added Paul George?
38:14I'm looking forward to seeing
38:16what's going on in the East as well.
38:18Yeah, and already some health issues
38:20on the New York side.
38:22I know some reporting that Randall
38:24might not be ready for camp
38:26and Robinson might miss into the winter,
38:28December there.
38:30So they have a tough start already going there.
38:32And those two will face on opening night.
38:34The Warriors game comes up pretty quick too,
38:36November 6.
38:38Steve Kerr goes to the Garden.
38:40I don't know how the timing worked out on that.
38:42I think the schedule was out
38:44before all that Olympic stuff.
38:46So that's a coincidence.
38:48And I think Kerr was saying NBA.com.
38:50I would say probably some Kyrie-esque booze
38:53at the Garden for Kerr this fall
38:56when he goes in there with the Warriors,
38:58which we would have thought
39:00that he'd be the latest Celtics villain.
39:03Dallas.
39:05When is the first Celtics-Mavs game?
39:07I want to say it's in Boston.
39:10As I scroll through here.
39:12Oh no, the first one is in Dallas,
39:14January 25.
39:16And then pretty soon after
39:18is the Boston rematch on February 6.
39:21So we'll have to wait a little while
39:23to see these two teams face off
39:25and we'll see where it's at at that point.
39:27Again, for Dallas, it's like,
39:29where's Klay going to be positioned
39:31at that point in their lineup?
39:33And for the Celtics,
39:35we'll probably have Porzingis back
39:37at that point, I would think.
39:39How do they sustain without him?
39:41How do they figure it out on their front court?
39:42How do they manage their guys
39:44through the regular season,
39:46especially Horford, who's going to have to start for him?
39:48I know you mentioned some of the competitors there,
39:50but what do you think in terms of, like,
39:52Boston getting back to the finals
39:54and doing what they did again this year on their end
39:57is going to be most important for them?
39:59Yeah, I think it's theirs to lose.
40:01Like, they just have to stay consistent, solid,
40:05play the same brand of basketball
40:07that got them to the finals last year.
40:09They're still one of the deepest teams in the league,
40:12if not the deepest team in the league.
40:14They just have to be consistent.
40:16You hope that the individual stuff
40:20doesn't get in the way of Tatum and Jalen Brown.
40:25They're both going to probably come in
40:27with a chip on their shoulders.
40:29They both want to go back to back.
40:31You just got to hope some of that stuff
40:33doesn't get in the way of it.
40:35And from everything I hear,
40:37as far as reporting-wise,
40:39I hear that all the time.
40:41People always try to divvy them up
40:44and make them go against each other,
40:46but we're going to have to see that play out on the floor.
40:49And that's what I'm interested in seeing.
40:54Do you think it'll be these two at the end?
40:57What are the chances that we see a rematch next summer?
41:03I don't think that we'll see these two.
41:07But I'm saying that from the standpoint
41:09of we're not going to see the Cavs and the Warriors
41:15go four straight times.
41:17That was unheard of at that point.
41:20So I don't think we'll see a rematch
41:22just because of how tough the West is.
41:24I think the Mavs can get back,
41:26and I think both teams are able to get back,
41:29but I don't think it's going to happen.
41:31I just think a new competitor is going to emerge.
41:34We just have to wait and see which team will.
41:39Yeah, I worry about Dallas finding a new lineup
41:43through the early portion of the year.
41:45Once they figure that out,
41:47and figure out which rotations work best there,
41:50I think they can make a run.
41:53Now, I think they're capable of beating Denver.
41:56It's tough.
41:58I think Phoenix would be a really tough matchup for them,
42:00but I still think that's when they win.
42:02I'd probably pick Dallas in any series.
42:05When it comes to Oklahoma,
42:06they nearly pushed the seven, right?
42:08On that Shea-Fowl.
42:10Yeah.
42:12So, I mean, they were already right there,
42:15and they add Hartenstein.
42:17They add Caruso.
42:19It's going to be hard not to pick the Thunder
42:21in the West this year,
42:23and it could be Dallas-Oklahoma West Finals
42:26that decides that.
42:28So, again, breaks.
42:30Luka being Luka.
42:32Things go their way.
42:34I'm not ruling out Dallas getting there again.
42:36I think people would have ruled out Dallas
42:38getting there last year,
42:40based on how the West stacked up.
42:42Everybody picked Denver.
42:44Things went sideways for Denver in that second round.
42:46All of a sudden, Dallas had an opportunity.
42:48I think it would be a similar situation
42:50if they do it again this year.
42:52It's tough not to pick the Celtics,
42:54with how they're constituted right now,
42:56but I don't think it would be a slam dunk.
42:58New York's loaded up.
43:00Milwaukee, I'm not ruling out.
43:02Especially them.
43:04I think they match up pretty well with the Celtics.
43:06I don't know about the easiest-run everything
43:08for the Celtics.
43:10I think that's a lot of hyperbole,
43:12especially with Dallas being healthy for the Finals.
43:14But they caught breaks,
43:16and I think Stephens has said it.
43:18Joe's probably going to say it tomorrow.
43:20Guys on his team are probably going to say it tomorrow.
43:22It's going to be harder this time around,
43:24because you want it.
43:26You've got to get back mentally.
43:28It's a hangover effect sometimes for these teams,
43:30and your rival's loaded up.
43:32So it's not a slam dunk that they're going to be back,
43:34but it's a pretty good bet,
43:36just based on their talent level right here.
43:38My pick right now, today, is Celtics Thunder,
43:43but I'm not ruling Dallas out.
43:45That's a good one.
43:48Do I need to make a pick right now?
43:50If you want to.
43:52I'm not going to force you to.
43:54Okay.
43:56I'm going to wait.
43:58We're going to revisit this probably.
44:00We should get back together.
44:01When these two teams play in January,
44:03and I'll make a more educated guess then.
44:08Yeah.
44:10Let's see if Porzingis is back.
44:12Let's see how Klay works out here.
44:14Big questions for both teams,
44:16and Dallas getting started in, what, a week?
44:18A week from today?
44:20Their training camp's opening, right?
44:22And Mike Curtis for the first full season
44:24with the Dallas Morning News.
44:26He's going to have all the coverage down there.
44:28Good friend of mine.
44:29He's a guy that I've been in talks with
44:31throughout his time in Detroit,
44:33and moved down there and did a great job
44:35covering the finals.
44:37Appreciate you stopping by, Curtis.
44:39I think this is your first time on The Garden Report.
44:41Good having you here, in this version.
44:43We've had you at the arenas plenty of time,
44:45but good having you on here.
44:47Hey, appreciate you for having me, man.
44:49Can't wait to see you down the road
44:51when the season starts.
44:53Yep, and you can check out him on Twitter
44:55at MikeACurtis2.
44:57You can find all his work over there.
44:59Appreciate you, man.
45:01Take care.
45:04All right.
45:06I want to give a shout out to another
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47:52Let's talk a little bit about training camp
47:55beginning tomorrow.
47:57To expect, what to look for.
48:00First of all,
48:02there will be
48:04a live stream here
48:06on Celtics All Access CLNS Media.
48:09So all the interviews tomorrow,
48:11and I would expect we'll hear from
48:14the big guys, Tatum Brown, White, Holiday.
48:18Kristaps Porzingis is in town,
48:20so I'm pretty sure we'll hear from him.
48:23Where his recovery is at,
48:26how long he's expecting to be out,
48:28how it went over the summer,
48:31having to deal with the surgery and all the rest
48:33while trying to celebrate the championship there.
48:36That's a big one tomorrow for sure.
48:38Young guys, where are they at?
48:41Where could they fit in?
48:43Obviously, I talked to Al Horford yesterday
48:45who said Baylor Shireman has looked good so far.
48:47Jordan Walsh getting a seal of approval from Horford
48:50as well after a rough summer league, interestingly enough.
48:53I think there's a story there.
48:55On nights where Celtics are arresting guys,
48:57short-handed.
48:59Even Keita.
49:01I think Keita is one of the more interesting guys
49:03in this camp as well.
49:05So I think that's another story there.
49:07Lonnie Walker, is he going to make the team?
49:09What are they thinking?
49:11Brad Stevens often talks on Media Day as well,
49:13so that would be a good question for him.
49:15Something to look for.
49:17What's the plan for Walker?
49:18Why'd they sign him to that deal?
49:20Could he be on the roster opening night?
49:23Could he be in Maine?
49:25All of that.
49:27I don't think we'll know now,
49:29but he's been at the garden a lot
49:31and they've had eyes on him shooting
49:33and just getting in work there
49:35before camp begins on Wednesday.
49:37So that's certainly a big three story
49:39going into this camp,
49:41as well as the mentality.
49:43I'm sure that'll be everything Joe talks about.
49:45How they're going to carry forward the momentum
49:46and approach from last year
49:48after achieving that championship.
49:50It's something Al Horford talked about
49:52with me yesterday, again,
49:54that interview available on CLNS Media.
49:56And then the rest of the teams around the league
49:59stacking up, making a run at them.
50:01Talked about Dallas here, Philly,
50:03we hit on in a podcast already,
50:05as well as Cleveland and Miami,
50:07teams that maybe people aren't talking about
50:09as much, but are still well suited,
50:11when healthy, to playing the Celtics tough.
50:14So Brad said it,
50:16I'm sure he's going to say it again tomorrow.
50:18It's going to be tougher this year.
50:20It's going to be harder.
50:22Porzingis' absence already makes a difference
50:24and they're going to have to manage
50:26after big minutes for many of these guys
50:28into the summer in Tatum's case,
50:30how much basketball they're playing
50:32during the regular season.
50:34Do they take a hit during the regular season
50:36and have to make up for it in the playoffs?
50:38There's some stories here.
50:40It's going to be dominant.
50:42I think they're going to reach levels
50:44that look like last year,
50:46but with all that momentum
50:48and attention to detail built up
50:50in let's get that first championship
50:52and everybody except for Holiday's case,
50:54doing that again into year two
50:56after such a short summer
50:58in many of these guys' cases,
51:00it's a challenge.
51:02And that Porzingis absence
51:04for as long as he's going to be out
51:06is just going to make it that much harder.
51:08So I'm not manufacturing any concern, panic,
51:10the possibility that this team could lose
51:13short of the final, stuff like that.
51:14I don't have concern about any of that,
51:16but managing the regular season
51:18I do think is going to be a tall order
51:22for the Celtics here.
51:24So again, subscribe.
51:26Lock in.
51:2810 o'clock tomorrow.
51:30Interviews are going to fire off.
51:32I'm sure Brad Stevens, Joe Mizzoula
51:34will be the ones who tip off
51:36training camp tomorrow.
51:38And again, we'll hear from Tatum, Brown,
51:40Horford, Porzingis, Derrick, Drew,
51:42Payton, Sam, Shireman again
51:46after his first summer in Boston.
51:49All the way down the line.
51:51I think we'll probably hear from
51:5310 plus Celtics at the least tomorrow.
51:56So lock in.
51:58Get ready for a ton of quotes,
52:00ton of articles.
52:02Show tomorrow again as well.
52:04And then it's training camp time.
52:06Celtics gearing up next weekend,
52:08the weekend after this one.
52:09And again, the Abu Dhabi for their
52:11first action of the preseason
52:13against the Nuggets.
52:15I'm Bobby Manning.
52:17Thanks again to Mike Curtis.
52:19Shout out to our sponsors here.
52:21Show them some love as we prepare
52:23to cover the Celtics this season.
52:25The more love they get,
52:27the more we're able to bring to you
52:29on the road, at home, everywhere this season
52:31as I prepare for my fifth season
52:33covering the Celtics.
52:35Parts of six.
52:37Going back to the bubble
52:39at PrizePix for a $50 bonus
52:43when you play $5.
52:45Game time.
52:47CLNS gets you $20 off your first purchase.
52:49Again, terms apply over there.
52:51And our official ticket partner
52:53here at CLNS Media and Nutrafol
52:55running a great offer.
52:57$10 off your first month subscription.
52:59Free shipping over there at Nutrafol.com.
53:01Use the code GARDEN, G-A-R-D-E-N,
53:03Nutrafol.com, code GARDEN.
53:05That's it for tonight.
53:07We'll see you tomorrow
53:09at the Auerbach Center.
53:11This has been the Garden Report,
53:13and good night.