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00:00:00I knocked like three times and then he finally came you knock and he comes to
00:00:20the door what's he look like is he dressed is he got anything on him what's
00:00:26he look like he's got a white shirt and was red shorts and all sweaty what's he
00:00:36say it to you
00:00:40it's all right you are doing the right thing
00:00:46come on what's he saying
00:00:50that he wants to keep on doing it okay doing what
00:00:57raping him what kind of words is he using
00:01:04you can say those words here that you want to fuck her so hard
00:02:16you
00:02:24let's see how did I feel about Brendan Dassey I think suffice to say not the
00:02:30same way that I felt about Stephen Avery he definitely does not elicit the same
00:02:34response and that's because he's more meek he's timid unsure of himself and
00:02:42you can understand why people felt sympathetic to him I think that when
00:02:47you listen to him you definitely can see how someone like him was easily
00:02:53manipulated everyone seems to concentrate on the March one interview
00:02:58of Brendan Dassey but there was so much more that led up to that particular
00:03:03interview that I think is important to and relevant Brendan was first
00:03:08interviewed November 6th up in Marinette I've never heard of Stephen
00:03:13Avery before that she's all about case all I knew was from the television
00:03:18broadcast of the scene that was going on down in Manitowoc we got a phone call
00:03:24from there asking that we assisted him by interviewing the Avery family that
00:03:28own a cabin on our County so I left my home and traveled up there met with a
00:03:33couple officers and spoke to the Avery family and one of the individuals I
00:03:38was spoken to was Brendan Sunday the 6th we saw that Stephen Avery's vehicle
00:03:43was on a roadway and pulled it over they were driving into town they stopped him
00:03:49and talked to them I think it was him and his brother Brian at that time knew
00:03:54nothing about him possibly being involved in this crime at all we were
00:03:59just trying to pass some time because DCI was trying to secure a search warrant
00:04:04for mr. Avery's car and we could tell at that point that Brendan was a very
00:04:08quiet young man very meek mannered and very hard to get any kind of
00:04:13conversation out of we asked him did he know ever see this girl no we never I
00:04:17never saw this girl did you ever see her vehicle during that interview Brendan
00:04:25was not consistent in his statements Brandon not gonna disappoint any of us
00:04:32think about that girl was that girl standing or taking a picture that day
00:04:37it's either yes or no I mean I'm gonna put nothing in your mind you tell me if
00:04:42you remember that girl standing or taking a picture
00:04:44was she huh why won't you tell me
00:04:54well did you see her standing or taking a picture why didn't you tell me that so
00:05:01kind of confused us as to okay I didn't see her now I did see her as we
00:05:05continued with the interview Brendan said well me my brother walking on the
00:05:09driveway and we had to actually step out of the way as Theresa how about drove
00:05:13past us so of course you know we're listening to that saying okay you know
00:05:22what's the truth here it seemed to me like when he got frustrated enough that
00:05:27he would blurt something out that in retrospect actually happened but at the
00:05:32time we didn't know anything about he made a comment to me that I found very
00:05:38strange do you think he did it you just asked me a question Brandon you think he
00:05:44did it no you just asked me that question why would you ask me that did
00:05:50what that he raped her Brendan why would you say that what I haven't said
00:06:01anything about anybody being raped it's like nobody ever mentioned the idea that
00:06:04Teresa was sexually assaulted or anything like that nothing's been brought
00:06:07up and what possibly happened to Teresa just such a reason missing I definitely
00:06:12had a feeling that Brendan knew a lot more about what happened than he was
00:06:16telling us now this isn't going to go away understand that it's not going to
00:06:24go away it was just the beginning
00:06:31February 20th 2006 on that particular day did you have an opportunity to
00:06:40interview Kayla Avery I did Kayla Avery she played quite a prominent role in
00:06:46Brendan being questioned in February of 2006 our purpose for going there was to
00:06:53interview Kayla in reference to Steve Avery and at some point during that
00:06:57interview did the discussion change focus from Steve Avery to Brendan Dassey
00:07:02yes at the end of the interview she has asked if Steven's ever touched her
00:07:08things like that and out of the blue Kayla brings up that they should talk to
00:07:15her cousin Brendan she had a cousin by the name of Brendan and that Brendan was
00:07:22quote acting up lately she mentioned things like staring off into space
00:07:27crying at times and weight loss Brendan had had lost approximately what she
00:07:34estimated to be about 40 pounds when Kelly had spoken to them she wasn't
00:07:40saying too much about why she felt he was losing weight or anything like that
00:07:43but it definitely prompted Weigert and Fassbender to question Brendan again to
00:07:48look into that and see what she meant it's not normal for a 16 year old boy to
00:07:54be just crying uncontrollably and to lose that type of weight something's
00:07:57bothering him something's going on and we felt that he he may know more and
00:08:02that he was protecting Steven and that's why we ultimately went back and
00:08:05talked to Brendan and when did you talk to Brendan again myself and agent
00:08:11Fassbender interviewed Brendan on February 27th of 2006
00:08:26we made arrangements to talk to Brendan while he was at school I told him I think
00:08:32twice during that interview that he wasn't under arrest and he didn't have
00:08:35to answer questions was free to leave
00:08:50they thought that maybe he had seen something and they thought he was having
00:08:54trouble you know dealing with what he had witnessed
00:09:12and we weren't expecting anything really major we were talking to him at a
00:09:17witness when they interviewed him again he started to come clean with certain
00:09:24details of the crime that he had not included in his earlier interview back
00:09:28in November he talks about seeing Teresa in the fire and some of that obviously
00:09:35was brought up to him in a question form
00:09:54ultimately he admitted to seeing things because from our standpoint you're not
00:10:02going to be able to fire and not see a body in there
00:10:10we asked him did we promise you anything
00:10:16showing an acute understanding and memory of that particular part of the
00:10:27interview we called his mother and got her to come to the school we briefed her
00:10:32and we said that we wanted to go to Two Rivers Police Department and do a video
00:10:36recorded portion of this her and Brendan both got in our car and we drove to Two
00:10:41Rivers
00:11:02while at Two Rivers you know we said we're gonna go in and do this we asked
00:11:07Barb if she wanted to go and she essentially said something to the effect
00:11:11that she didn't need to
00:11:17I remember Brendan even saying yeah I wish you had to go smoke a cigarette or
00:11:20something like that and we asked Brendan do you want your mother in there and he
00:11:24said you know it's not necessary either something to that effect and so we did
00:11:29the recorded interview which essentially was the information that he had already
00:11:33provided us at the school
00:11:41October 31st of 2005
00:11:45do you remember that day? yeah
00:11:48tell us about that day when you came home from school
00:11:54I got off the bus at 345 and I seen a chief going to the firehouse and I went into my house
00:12:06and I played playstation 2 for 2 hours, 3 hours
00:12:11I ate at 8 o'clock and I got a phone from Steven, a phone call from Steven
00:12:18and he asked me if I wanted to go to the bonfire next to Gant's garage
00:12:24and then he told me to bring the book cart over
00:12:27I did and then
00:12:30he told me around to find some stuff
00:12:35you know you got the fan seats and some wood
00:12:40I seen her when we dropped the
00:12:45the seat off and later on I seen her forehead and her belly
00:12:53when you say you saw her belly how do you know it was her belly?
00:12:59it was like some fat or something
00:13:02how did you know it was a forehead?
00:13:05it was late
00:13:10it's so important to stress that prior to this date of February 27th
00:13:13the police did not have Brendan Dassey on their radar at all
00:13:16they didn't think he had been a witness to anything
00:13:18remember they initially went down to that high school because they were worried about him
00:13:21because his cousin made some comments about him losing weight
00:13:24now they're talking to him and he's saying things about a golf cart
00:13:27he's talking about a bonfire that he had with his uncle Steven
00:13:31seeing Teresa Hallback's toes and belly and forehead in the fire
00:13:34I mean this was a major breakthrough in the case
00:13:46hello?
00:13:47yes?
00:13:48hello?
00:13:50what?
00:13:51what are you doing?
00:13:53they got Brendan down in the police station
00:13:55why?
00:13:57something to do with you
00:13:59oh yeah?
00:14:00once Brendan was spoken to on February 27th
00:14:04word got out immediately to the family
00:14:19so Steven catches wind that Brendan Dassey is being interviewed by the police
00:14:22and he has a pretty anxious response to that
00:14:30well I can't help it, I don't even know nothing about this stuff
00:14:34did you have anything to do with the disappearance of Teresa Hallback?
00:14:38no
00:14:39did you stab her?
00:14:40no
00:14:41did you help put the body in the fire?
00:14:43no
00:14:56have you lied to us at all about anything you've told us?
00:14:59no
00:15:04I appreciate you being honest, right?
00:15:07we know this was difficult for you
00:15:11do you have any questions?
00:15:15no
00:15:16no, I have everything else
00:15:23at that point we made arrangements and put him, Brendan
00:15:27and his mother and his brother Blaine up for the night at a local resort
00:15:31part of it was to protect the integrity of the information they gave us
00:15:34because we were then going to do interviews, follow up interviews with other family members
00:15:38and a concern potentially for his safety
00:15:41because now he had implicated Steven
00:15:44ultimately that night we learned information about
00:15:47Brendan being involved with Steven cleaning up his garage floor on the night of October 31st
00:15:53we found reddish brown stains on the concrete that we believed to be possibly blood
00:16:01Brendan, he talked about how there was this liquid substance on the garage floor
00:16:05he thought it was from a vehicle or an engine or something
00:16:08but it was a dark red in color
00:16:11it's most likely transmission fluid if we're being honest
00:16:14I mean, I don't know that for a fact, but all signs point to transmission fluid, right?
00:16:18it's an oil, it's dark red
00:16:20have you ever seen transmission fluid?
00:16:22yes
00:16:23have you ever seen it stain a floor?
00:16:25yes
00:16:26transmission fluid red?
00:16:31reddish brown tins if I remember, yes
00:16:33okay
00:16:34I later learned that evening, Steven and Brendan
00:16:38they were driving around the golf cart, putting things on the bonfire
00:16:42and then when they were done with that, they cleaned up something off the floor of the garage
00:16:48do you recall, at some point
00:16:51from February 27th or on, 2006
00:16:55speaking to investigators Wiegert or Fassbender?
00:16:59yes
00:17:00did you tell them what you saw on the floor?
00:17:03yes
00:17:04what did you tell them?
00:17:06that it could have been blood
00:17:09what did you tell them the first time they asked you what it was on the floor?
00:17:14I can't remember
00:17:26hey Steven, how are ya?
00:17:28not too good
00:17:29what's going on?
00:17:30I just got out of the hole
00:17:31they thought I was gonna hurt myself or something
00:17:33oh Christ
00:17:34but I guess they were talking to Brendan last night
00:17:37I guess they got it all on film or tape or whatever
00:17:40what we did that night
00:17:43so I don't know what they told them or...
00:17:46or what
00:17:48and who's Brendan?
00:17:50he's the one who was with me that night
00:17:52with the fire
00:17:53and so what, are they threatening Brendan now?
00:17:55I guess they have been
00:17:57they've done that to everybody
00:17:59I don't see what more they could say
00:18:01the sheriff from here
00:18:03he told us everything
00:18:06told us everything about what?
00:18:08I don't know
00:18:09nothing to say
00:18:11nothing to say?
00:18:13I went over there and told him
00:18:16if he wanted to come have a bonfire
00:18:19he wanted to put stuff on the fire that was on
00:18:22so what's the problem with that?
00:18:24I don't know
00:18:25I don't know if they gave him so much
00:18:28or he said something, I don't know
00:18:30what that indicates to me is the weakness
00:18:34with which they view their case
00:18:36if they're having to resort to that kind of stuff
00:18:39I'm really struck by this conversation
00:18:41that he's having with his civil attorney
00:18:43mostly because he mentions
00:18:45this bonfire with Brendan Dassey
00:18:47the police had spoken with Stephen Avery
00:18:49several times by this point
00:18:51and not once had he mentioned a bonfire
00:18:54with his nephew Brendan Dassey
00:18:56so that's a little odd
00:18:58so after February 27
00:19:00there were things that just still weren't adding up
00:19:03and we believe that Brendan knew more
00:19:05they was likely covering for Stephen yet
00:19:08and based on that
00:19:10we decided to try and do another interview
00:19:13this time at the Sheriff's Department
00:19:17We know there's some things you left out
00:19:19and we know there's some things
00:19:21that maybe weren't quite correct
00:19:23that you told us, okay?
00:19:25We've been investigating this a long time
00:19:27we pretty much know everything
00:19:29that's why we're talking to you again today
00:19:32I feel like some of the things they said to him
00:19:35were getting him to admit stuff
00:19:37and just tell him what they wanted to hear
00:19:49I saw a kid, scared
00:19:51in a corner, looking down
00:19:53as if parents were talking to him and scolding him
00:19:55that's what I saw
00:20:08that if he wanted me
00:20:12to have, to get some pussy
00:20:22I said I wasn't aged
00:20:26so he took me back there and
00:20:28showed me some
00:20:32her naked body
00:20:34What he told us during that interview
00:20:36basically surprised us
00:20:38and blew us away
00:20:40we did not expect what he was telling us
00:20:43He told me to do it
00:20:47What does that mean to you?
00:20:51To score
00:20:54Did you do that?
00:20:56Honestly
00:21:01Yeah
00:21:04Alright, take a breath, run, take a breath
00:21:06that's very hard to admit to
00:21:10That portion of
00:21:12Brendan Dassey's confession
00:21:14which of course was conveniently
00:21:16left out of Making a Murderer
00:21:18is the most difficult portion to listen to
00:21:21I felt physically sick
00:21:23the first time that I heard it
00:21:25Tell us what you did, did you take your clothes off?
00:21:27No
00:21:30And you had intercourse with her?
00:21:34What does intercourse mean to you?
00:21:37That you stuck it in her
00:21:39You stuck what in her?
00:21:41It's ok
00:21:43The penis
00:21:44And where did you stick it?
00:21:46In her vagina
00:21:48Ok, where is Steve at this time?
00:21:50Standing by the door
00:21:53After you're done and you put your clothes on
00:21:55what happens next?
00:21:58They told me I did a good job
00:22:00and then
00:22:02he closed the door
00:22:08Brendan said that he
00:22:10raped Theresa Hallback
00:22:12and then his uncle told him that he did a good job
00:22:19I have no words
00:22:21I mean
00:22:23what do you even say to that, you know what I mean?
00:22:25What do you even say to that?
00:22:39You know obviously that we're police officers
00:22:41ok
00:22:43and because of what you told us
00:22:46we're going to have to arrest you
00:22:48I remember March 1st
00:22:50I was off that day
00:22:52getting a phone call from somebody saying
00:22:54you know, you really need to go to work tonight
00:22:56was a tip
00:22:58So Brendan Dassey's arrest was followed by
00:23:00two press conferences which were conducted by
00:23:02the Calumet County District Attorney
00:23:04Ken Kratz. The first one was pretty much
00:23:06just an update to the public that
00:23:08Stephen Avery's nephew had been arrested
00:23:10When it was
00:23:12revealed that Avery's 16 year old
00:23:14had been raped
00:23:16that Avery's 16 year old nephew
00:23:18was not just a witness
00:23:20but also a pretty
00:23:22willing accomplice
00:23:24that was just shocking
00:23:26that was downright shocking
00:23:28Then the next day when we found out
00:23:30about the details
00:23:32everybody thought you know we might get a little bit
00:23:34of something out of this press conference
00:23:36but nobody expected what we heard
00:23:38I mean it was horrifying
00:23:40The second of the two press conferences took place on
00:23:42March 2nd 2006 and the details
00:23:44that were provided were so gruesome
00:23:46that Ken Kratz actually issued
00:23:48a warning. I'm going to ask
00:23:50that if there are children watching this
00:23:52and you're under the age of 15
00:23:54that you discontinue
00:23:56watching this press conference
00:23:58The press conference
00:24:00that is my number one thing
00:24:02that really disturbs me
00:24:04just the way it was handled
00:24:06I mean it was going into these graphic details
00:24:08While Teresa
00:24:10is still begging for her life
00:24:12as he hands the knife
00:24:14to the 16 year old boy
00:24:16and instructs him to cut her throat
00:24:18It could have been done
00:24:20on a much more low key level
00:24:22You could have just done the same thing probably by
00:24:24passing out you know
00:24:26documents so I don't really
00:24:28know if it matters at the end of the day
00:24:30those details are going to be given to the public
00:24:32The details are in the documents
00:24:34I think it's totally appropriate to have a press conference
00:24:36It's a high profile case
00:24:38They should answer questions
00:24:40They should be held accountable to the public
00:24:42They're public officials
00:24:44You're going to put a 16 year old kid in jail
00:24:46You better answer some questions
00:24:48But going into that much detail was too much
00:24:50The press conference on March 2nd
00:24:52was wrong
00:24:54I shouldn't have done it that way
00:24:56I should have just released the criminal complaint
00:24:58and allowed the media to glean from it
00:25:00what it was going to
00:25:02Ironically what I was trying to do was
00:25:04have less attention spent on some of the details
00:25:06There were some really horrific
00:25:08statements made by Brendan Dassey
00:25:10and I was trying to limit those statements
00:25:12getting out there into the press
00:25:14certainly to friends and family
00:25:16of Teresa Halbach that they had to hear those things
00:25:18Whether you believe Stephen
00:25:20is innocent or guilty
00:25:22I happen to believe he's innocent
00:25:24Where is he going to go to get a fair trial
00:25:26When all this stuff is floating around
00:25:28you can't take it back
00:25:30The people who say he should get a new trial
00:25:32in part because of the press conference
00:25:34they seem to
00:25:36completely ignore the effect of
00:25:38making a murderer
00:25:40which I'm sure has been viewed by
00:25:42more people than the press conference
00:25:44and I also don't know what it is
00:25:46they expected anybody to do
00:25:48once the press conference has occurred
00:25:50You can't undo it
00:25:52The judge was never going to dismiss the case
00:25:54because of a press conference
00:25:58Avery's attorneys contemplated
00:26:00moving the trial
00:26:02Their defense was
00:26:04we were framed
00:26:06because of the lawsuit
00:26:08They wanted a local jury
00:26:10that was really familiar with
00:26:12his wrongful conviction
00:26:14because they could only go so far
00:26:16into that
00:26:18in the trial
00:26:20It was a strategy decision
00:26:22After making a murderer you had all these people
00:26:24who were saying, oh look at this pre-trial publicity
00:26:26Stephen Avery deserves to get a new trial
00:26:28because of how it could impact potential jurors
00:26:30but those people didn't have a leg to stand on
00:26:32because it was actually Stephen Avery
00:26:34and his attorneys that chose
00:26:36to keep the trial local
00:26:38Every defense attorney
00:26:40will say, oh there's unwarranted
00:26:42pre-trial publicity
00:26:44but it's like the charging document is public
00:26:46You really think
00:26:48a 16 year old boy being charged with
00:26:50rape and murder is not going to make
00:26:52front page news
00:26:54After that press conference, Brendan's
00:26:56mugshot was released. I remember interviewing
00:26:58his mom the night that
00:27:00the arrest was announced
00:27:02My son don't lie
00:27:04I love my son
00:27:06very much, very much
00:27:08I just felt so terribly for her
00:27:10and for him
00:27:12My brother likes to push a lot of people around
00:27:14He likes to tell them what to do
00:27:16and if they don't do it
00:27:18he gets pissed off
00:27:20or tells them
00:27:22do it or else
00:27:24I really feel sorry for Brendan
00:27:26getting roped into
00:27:28some scheme that
00:27:30Stephen decided he was going to come up with
00:27:32Not against his will
00:27:34but an impressionable
00:27:36young kid, his uncle says
00:27:38you better do this, he does it
00:27:40Are you afraid of your brother?
00:27:42Now? Yes
00:27:44I don't even want to see him
00:27:46I'd like to talk to him
00:27:50and tell him how I feel
00:27:54She said she wants to know why
00:27:56Why what?
00:27:58Why did you do this to my son?
00:28:00I didn't do nothing to your son
00:28:02I didn't do nothing to your son
00:28:04No, Brendan's not going to lie
00:28:06No, Brendan's a liar
00:28:08Put her on
00:28:10What?
00:28:12I didn't do nothing with your son
00:28:14He came over, we watched the bonfire and that was it
00:28:16Why would Brendan say all this stuff then?
00:28:18Because you let him
00:28:20Huh?
00:28:22You let him talk to the cops all the time
00:28:24What am I supposed to do?
00:28:26I have work there at school
00:28:28Ask for a lawyer
00:28:30What do you think of your brother now?
00:28:34What do I actually think of him?
00:28:36He can rot in hell
00:28:46Hang on, you can talk to Laura for a minute
00:28:48Hi Stephen, how are you?
00:28:50I'm better now
00:28:52I'm in my main room now
00:28:54Yeah, so did they give you any information
00:28:56about what's going on?
00:28:58Well I talked to Steve, he gave me some information
00:29:00Yeah
00:29:02That is nuts
00:29:04Nobody knew about Brendan Dassey
00:29:06Now it's being publicized that Brendan Dassey confessed
00:29:08and he assisted his uncle
00:29:12The filmmakers
00:29:14immediately spoke to Dolores
00:29:16Avery, Stephen's mother
00:29:18and Laura advised Stephen
00:29:20that she had spoken to Dolores
00:29:22and said I just wanted you to know
00:29:24the first thing we did was call your mother
00:29:26and tell her we were not changing our minds
00:29:28Well I mean I called
00:29:30your family right away to tell them
00:29:32that we're sticking by you
00:29:34Yeah, I didn't do nothing
00:29:36I know, well that's what I'm saying
00:29:38We are still on your side
00:29:40we're in your corner
00:29:42and this has not changed
00:29:44our minds at all
00:29:46None of this is going to change
00:29:48our impressions of anything
00:29:50so, you know
00:29:52I wanted to call your mom this morning
00:29:54and tell her that she has our support
00:29:58Yeah, because that don't make no sense
00:30:00what you all said
00:30:02there's blood all over that bedroom in that house
00:30:04I know
00:30:06So she's alive
00:30:08and you cut her throat
00:30:12Did Steve tell you to do that?
00:30:14Yeah
00:30:16Did he tell you?
00:30:18How did he tell you to do that?
00:30:20What did he say?
00:30:22To go across her throat
00:30:24and pull it back
00:30:30Supposedly she was stabbed in her throat
00:30:32like Stephen said
00:30:34Where was the blood?
00:30:36There should have been a bloodbath in that room
00:30:40That's a dyslogical fallacy number three million
00:30:42in this case
00:30:44It must not have happened
00:30:46People expect a mountain of forensic evidence
00:30:48like oh he left some DNA on the table
00:30:50and oh here's some fingerprints by the windowsill
00:30:52it doesn't work like that
00:30:54We call it absence of evidence
00:30:56does not mean evidence of absence
00:30:58which means an incident could have occurred there
00:31:00but it doesn't mean
00:31:02that it didn't occur because you didn't find any evidence
00:31:06With your fingers show me how deep
00:31:08you went into her throat
00:31:10Oh boy, that much
00:31:12I mean like this
00:31:14like that
00:31:16like that
00:31:18about that far
00:31:20In other words not very deep
00:31:22that type of cut probably
00:31:24depending on where he's cutting
00:31:26is not going to result in arterial bleeding
00:31:28because the arteries are a little deeper
00:31:30and protected
00:31:32Making a murderer basically turned our
00:31:34expectations about what we should see
00:31:36at a crime scene from years of watching
00:31:38movie and TV against us
00:31:40You wouldn't expect that there's a murder scene
00:31:42that we've seen on CSI or that we've seen
00:31:44in a movie
00:31:46You would find blood everywhere
00:31:48Like it's the Texas Chainsaw Massacre
00:31:50It's like they were preying
00:31:52on people's lack of knowledge
00:31:54about what crime scenes actually look like
00:31:56How many times did he stab her?
00:32:00Once
00:32:02And show me where
00:32:04Right here
00:32:06How far into the night though?
00:32:08Like that
00:32:14As it pertains to the stab wounds
00:32:16stabbing wounds like that
00:32:18are essentially puncture wounds
00:32:20and puncture wounds don't bleed a lot
00:32:22externally commonly
00:32:24When it comes to blood being present at a scene
00:32:26let me share with you a case that I worked on
00:32:28The wife stabbed her husband
00:32:3030 times and it was
00:32:3230 times like this
00:32:34and with that as you're bringing the knife
00:32:36down and stabbing into the blood
00:32:38you're going to see some patterns
00:32:40on the wall or on the floor
00:32:42If someone's only stabbed once
00:32:44for the most part that may not even
00:32:46be present. You may not have any
00:32:48cast off from that
00:32:50or it could be a lot of internal bleeding as well
00:32:52instead of external bleeding
00:32:54so it depends on the circumstances
00:32:56whether or not that occurred
00:32:58how many stab wounds are there and
00:33:00internal bleeding
00:33:02So what do you do between 9.30 and 10?
00:33:06We watch TV a little bit
00:33:08talk about
00:33:10that he was glad that I
00:33:12helped him because he couldn't do it
00:33:14by himself
00:33:18When do you clean the place up?
00:33:22Like at 9.50
00:33:249.50
00:33:34What is depicted in Exhibit 208?
00:33:36That would be
00:33:38Steve Avery's bedroom which he drew for us
00:33:42And what is represented
00:33:44or depicted in the drawing
00:33:46on the bed?
00:33:48He actually drew Teresa in on the bed
00:33:50and you can see the
00:33:52buttons or handcuffs
00:33:54that are attached to her legs
00:33:56and her arms
00:33:58What was significant
00:34:00about the layout
00:34:02of the bedroom?
00:34:04The investigative
00:34:06beliefs initially
00:34:08and subsequently what did you learn
00:34:10about it?
00:34:12The bedroom, the configuration of the bedroom
00:34:14had been changed from when
00:34:16Jody was there and from when
00:34:18Brendan talked about and gave us
00:34:20a description of what happened that day
00:34:22and his involvement in there
00:34:24it was in a different configuration
00:34:26So you're in the bedroom with him?
00:34:28No I'm sitting on the couch
00:34:32You can't see the dresser from the couch
00:34:36Can you?
00:34:40Well before he had
00:34:42he had a little different
00:34:44I don't know
00:34:48You're starting to lie again aren't you?
00:34:50When we interviewed
00:34:52Brendan
00:34:54he had stated that
00:34:56you could see Teresa from looking down that hallway
00:34:58and we initially thought
00:35:00well how can that be?
00:35:02Because if the bed is here
00:35:04there's no way you could see Teresa
00:35:06on that bed from looking down the hallway
00:35:10Because he had the bed where that window was
00:35:14Where the window was
00:35:16when Teresa was there
00:35:18We moved that bedroom around
00:35:20Why?
00:35:22You weren't supposed to because
00:35:24when you walk on the other side
00:35:26you could fall through
00:35:28It's all rotted out
00:35:30So now the bed's over here
00:35:34He changed it after he killed her?
00:35:36Yeah
00:35:42Now before you went into jail
00:35:44was the room set up or configured that way?
00:35:46No it wasn't
00:35:48We ended up asking Jodi about that
00:35:50and she told us the configuration of the bed
00:35:52was very similar to what Brendan
00:35:54had told us with the bed
00:35:56being visible from the hallway
00:35:58down there
00:36:00When you first walk in the door
00:36:02you'd walk straight into the bed
00:36:04If you looked down this hallway
00:36:06would you be able to see the bed?
00:36:08Yes you would
00:36:10That's all the questions today
00:36:12for Ms. Sikowsky
00:36:14My vacuum cleaner's there?
00:36:16Oh, I forgot to check that
00:36:18The spare bedroom?
00:36:20They're gone
00:36:22Both of them?
00:36:24The vacuum cleaner and a new scrubber
00:36:26They better not be busted
00:36:28You know who's going to use that one?
00:36:30That scrubber
00:36:32What if I'm not in there anyway?
00:36:34Jodi, Stephen
00:36:36The scrubber that new one Stephen bought
00:36:38I hope she had all that shit
00:36:40emptied out of there then
00:36:42Oh yeah, because I washed the rugs already
00:36:46That tells me that Stephen
00:36:48moved that bedroom around
00:36:50and likely, and I'm quite sure
00:36:52he moved it around while he was shampooing carpets
00:36:54while he was cleaning stuff
00:37:03I might have to take our
00:37:05rug doctor back
00:37:07Why?
00:37:09He was making noise
00:37:11I don't know if that was a good choice or not
00:37:13Yeah, why?
00:37:15I don't know, Chuckie lost his shot already too
00:37:19He had to go down and buy a new one
00:37:21Turns out that
00:37:23Avery had not only rearranged
00:37:25furniture, but had
00:37:27spoken to Jodi about the possibility
00:37:29of returning a rug doctor
00:37:32I don't know where the sale receipt is for that
00:37:34But no time to take it back and get a new one
00:37:40When the investigators went
00:37:42to collect evidence, they found
00:37:44a Bissell carpet cleaner
00:37:46In the box it came in, not a rug doctor
00:37:50If I did it, there'd be more evidence
00:37:54The fucking trailer would be full of evidence
00:37:56You think I'd do it outside?
00:37:59You think I'd do it outside?
00:38:01Because I ain't stupid
00:38:04Because I had 18 years of experience
00:38:07Because I used to watch all them shows
00:38:10I couldn't have murdered with somebody
00:38:12I don't think I could do it anyway
00:38:16So let's just go through this
00:38:17Steven rearranges the furniture in his bedroom
00:38:19He tells his mother that he's cleaned
00:38:21his rugs, and one day after Teresa
00:38:23is murdered, he talks to his fiance
00:38:25Jodi on the phone about returning the carpet
00:38:28I mean, what got into Steven Avery?
00:38:30He doesn't really strike me as a tidy individual
00:38:32or someone that's so focused
00:38:34on keeping things clean
00:38:46Going forward, and I'm not going to talk a lot
00:38:48about Brendan Dassey's interview
00:38:50at this point, but as a result
00:38:52of that interview
00:38:54he had indicated that Teresa
00:38:56was shot, shot in the head
00:38:58in Steven Avery's garage
00:39:01We had already been in the process
00:39:03of getting a search warrant for that garage
00:39:05an additional one, because we had already
00:39:07given up the scene
00:39:09So we got another search warrant, and we searched
00:39:11the garage
00:39:13And this time we physically moved
00:39:15everything from one location to the next
00:39:17And it was a very slow process
00:39:19As a result of that search
00:39:21there were two bullet fragments found
00:39:23One in the back of the garage
00:39:25under an air compressor, and one kind of in a crack
00:39:27toward the front of the garage
00:39:29There was a crack in the concrete
00:39:31and I observed this
00:39:33round
00:39:35gray object
00:39:37that resembled a
00:39:39like the head of a roofing nail
00:39:41One was
00:39:43destroyed beyond
00:39:45being able to examine it
00:39:47forensically, but the one in the back
00:39:49of the garage wasn't
00:39:51On top of that, that 22 fragment
00:39:53was tested for DNA and had
00:39:55Teresa Hallbach's DNA on it
00:39:57One thing that you don't learn
00:39:59from making a murderer is that the bullet
00:40:01recovered with Teresa's DNA on it
00:40:03matched the gun that hung over
00:40:05Steven Avery's bed
00:40:07Because of markings on the bullet
00:40:09in States Exhibit 277
00:40:11I was able to conclude that this bullet
00:40:13had been fired from
00:40:15this specific gun
00:40:17One way that they tried to prevent you from learning this fact
00:40:19was, you know, by editing some more testimony
00:40:21And I saw what appeared to be
00:40:23a flattened or
00:40:25a flattened bullet
00:40:27We do hear that
00:40:29they found a bullet in the garage, but
00:40:31they take flattened out of another part
00:40:33of testimony and added it in
00:40:35And I saw what appeared
00:40:37to be a flattened or
00:40:39a flattened bullet
00:40:43I saw what appeared to be
00:40:45a bullet
00:40:48In reality, that bullet
00:40:50was described as nearly intact
00:40:52I recognize it as what appeared
00:40:54to be a nearly intact bullet
00:40:56And they were able to examine it
00:40:58and they were able to match it to
00:41:00Steven Avery's rifle
00:41:02All the things about the gun and the ballistics
00:41:04matching the gun
00:41:06I don't recall any of that being
00:41:08in the film
00:41:10The filmmakers said that they were simply constrained
00:41:12for time, and obviously you can't
00:41:14fit this entire case
00:41:16this entire trial into a 10-hour
00:41:18movie. But there is no
00:41:20way to explain that as a time
00:41:22constraint. You just made the sentence longer
00:41:24I think that they wanted
00:41:26the audience to believe that this bullet couldn't be
00:41:28forensically matched to any gun
00:41:30and especially not the gun that was hanging
00:41:32right above Steven Avery's bed
00:41:34It would be impossible for us to include
00:41:36all of the evidence that
00:41:38was presented at trial. That's called a trial
00:41:40What we made was a documentary
00:41:42Well, we couldn't put in the whole trial
00:41:44That's true, but
00:41:46I think
00:41:48if it's intended to be
00:41:50a meaningful, thought-provoking
00:41:52look at the system
00:41:54and whether it treated him fairly
00:41:56or unfairly
00:41:58you can certainly put in the most important
00:42:00evidence against Steven Avery
00:42:02but instead
00:42:04I found myself watching
00:42:06that he took quarters
00:42:08when he robbed a
00:42:10bar years earlier
00:42:12you know, stuff like that
00:42:14The whole thing with the gun too
00:42:16you know, that they said that
00:42:18bullet was fired from Avery's gun
00:42:20I thought, like, well that was
00:42:22pretty compelling evidence
00:42:24maybe that should have been in there
00:42:26but it's their movie
00:42:28they get to make their own decisions about
00:42:30what they put in and don't put in
00:42:32so... It was testified that
00:42:34hundreds of bullets were shot by that garage
00:42:36from that rifle. So they put
00:42:38that one bullet and they matched it up to the gun
00:42:40So what? It was shot from that gun
00:42:42I fired that gun
00:42:44at chipmunks and I fired that gun
00:42:46at targets
00:42:48all over the lot
00:42:50I fired it all over the yard
00:42:52I fired it off the deck
00:42:54Very early in November
00:42:56of 2005, after Steven was in jail
00:42:58there's a call between Steven
00:43:00and Alan Avery, his father
00:43:02and they're talking about the gun
00:43:04that was in Steven's bedroom
00:43:06wasn't actually Steven's gun, it was the owner
00:43:08of the trailer, and Alan
00:43:10brings up that, you know, this was Roley's gun
00:43:12it was there when you moved in
00:43:32Steven responds to
00:43:34his father that he wiped the gun off
00:43:36Why did he wipe the gun off?
00:43:38Why does he then very quickly change the subject?
00:43:40He also says in another phone call
00:43:42to a male relative of his
00:43:44that a .22 ain't nothing
00:43:46You can't kill someone
00:44:02Both of those I kind of
00:44:04thought were very odd
00:44:06and this was even before we knew that
00:44:08that was the murder weapon
00:44:10I mean you think that these casings were left behind
00:44:12by Mr. Johnson?
00:44:14Well
00:44:16I mean, you heard him
00:44:18if you take a metal detector out there now, you'd find
00:44:20if you get through the snow, you'd find them all over the place
00:44:22But would any of them have Teresa Hallbach's DNA on them?
00:44:24Well, of course
00:44:26that's the question that a jury's gonna have to answer
00:44:28and did any of them have her DNA on it
00:44:30is also a question they're gonna have to answer
00:44:32because it was a contaminated test
00:44:34I have a problem with the bullet
00:44:36Sherry Culhane, she's the one that
00:44:38freed Stephen Avery
00:44:40Sherry Culhane was actually
00:44:42part of this case going way back to
00:44:441985 when she tested hair
00:44:46in Stephen's
00:44:48wrongful conviction
00:44:50She also was part of the exoneration
00:44:52when she tested
00:44:54pubic hair that turned out to be
00:44:56Gregory Allen's
00:44:58In 2007
00:45:00when she testified
00:45:02she explained that she had
00:45:04gotten some of her
00:45:06DNA into
00:45:08a control sample
00:45:10During the extraction procedure, I
00:45:12inadvertently introduced my own DNA
00:45:14into the negative control
00:45:16She puts the bullet itself in the test tube
00:45:18and sort of washes it
00:45:20and tries to get the DNA shook loose
00:45:22from whatever's on the bullet
00:45:24That's gonna be in one test tube
00:45:26and then she's gonna have what's called her control
00:45:28and there should be no DNA
00:45:30in those, none whatsoever
00:45:32You got this bullet
00:45:34and you wash it off with some
00:45:36water and then you amplify
00:45:38it and somewhere along here
00:45:40the tester's
00:45:42DNA gets mixed in with something
00:45:44The bullet even should
00:45:46have just been a wash
00:45:48because it was contaminated by her
00:45:50The bullet
00:45:52DNA evidence was not contaminated
00:45:54The negative control was contaminated
00:45:56Do you think, Linda, that it makes a difference
00:45:58that it was in the control sample
00:46:00versus the actual sample?
00:46:02I don't know how that works
00:46:04So if I knew more about it, maybe I could give a better opinion
00:46:06Do you want to know?
00:46:08You know, I mean, I just think
00:46:10it's just, to me, my mind
00:46:12isn't going to be
00:46:14he's guilty or not guilty just from that
00:46:16because I just think it's not
00:46:18it shouldn't have been valid, it shouldn't have been allowed
00:46:20it should have been, that's not good
00:46:22evidence, we need to find something that's better
00:46:24evidence, you know, and that
00:46:26goes with investigation
00:46:28It's so weird hearing her say that, she doesn't care what a control is
00:46:30she doesn't want to know the details
00:46:32For Stephen Avery supporters, it really, at this point
00:46:34is a faith and not a science
00:46:36The two profiles
00:46:38were completely separate
00:46:40and it just had no impact
00:46:42at all
00:46:44on the interpretation of Teresa
00:46:46Halbach's DNA profile on that bullet
00:46:48Only Teresa's
00:46:50DNA was in that wash
00:46:52But the defense argued
00:46:54that, well, if Culhane's DNA
00:46:56could be in the control sample
00:46:58why couldn't Teresa's
00:47:00DNA accidentally have gotten
00:47:02in the evidence sample
00:47:04It's like, if you open up a microwave dinner
00:47:06and you see a fly in the little
00:47:08peach cobbler, are you going to eat the Salisbury steak?
00:47:10I hope not
00:47:12Most of us aren't
00:47:14So in other words, if you don't know where Culhane's DNA came from
00:47:16you might not know where Halbach's DNA came from
00:47:18That's right, that's right
00:47:20Sherry said she was training and teaching
00:47:22and talking, and her
00:47:24probably from talking came out
00:47:26into that control, so in the end of the process
00:47:28there was Sherry's DNA from that
00:47:30So it's just, it's a separate
00:47:32tube
00:47:34I understand it was just the control sample
00:47:36that was contaminated
00:47:38but it's the only time in
00:47:40Sherry Culhane's career that she asked
00:47:42for a deviation from protocol
00:47:44This is the only time
00:47:46in your entire
00:47:48career you have ever
00:47:50filed
00:47:52a deviation of protocol so that you could
00:47:54make a call and include somebody, isn't it?
00:47:56Yes
00:47:58Avery's attorney pressed the point that technically
00:48:00the test was contaminated
00:48:02and by crime lab protocol
00:48:04should have been reported as inconclusive
00:48:06Culhane requested a deviation
00:48:08from the rules from her supervisors
00:48:10allowing the test to stand
00:48:14Each case that we work
00:48:16in every situation is different
00:48:18and sometimes there are circumstances
00:48:20that warrant
00:48:22deviating from the
00:48:24stated protocol
00:48:26My DNA was not in the evidence sample
00:48:28it was only in the control
00:48:30and it was a source that
00:48:32I could track
00:48:34It was me
00:48:36I would not be saying this if there were a profile
00:48:38that were, you know, we couldn't determine
00:48:40whose it was, some unknown profile
00:48:42There was no way possible
00:48:44that the lab technician
00:48:46could contaminate
00:48:48the negative control with her own DNA
00:48:50and that it would show up as
00:48:52Teresa Hallback's DNA
00:48:54on a completely separate test
00:48:56If it was just in the control
00:48:58couldn't she have
00:49:00started that control over or am I missing something?
00:49:02Yes you are
00:49:04I don't like her testing of the bullet
00:49:06using it all up and then not being able to retest anything
00:49:08I have a hard time believing
00:49:10that there was such a minuscule amount of DNA on that bullet
00:49:12Sherry's DNA is already there
00:49:14you can't go back anymore
00:49:16This was a little bit different
00:49:18because all of her other cases
00:49:20she could go back
00:49:22and retest it again
00:49:24Probably 99% are resolved
00:49:26by re-extracting
00:49:28Like your bloodstain
00:49:30you could have taken 50 swabs
00:49:32of that bloodstain how many times
00:49:34where Sherry, because of the size
00:49:36of that
00:49:38She used it all up
00:49:40I didn't feel like by swabbing it
00:49:42that I would get enough DNA off of the item
00:49:44So I actually put the entire bullet
00:49:46into the tube
00:49:48and washed all the DNA off
00:49:50that was on that tube
00:49:52There was nothing to re-extract from the bullet
00:49:54so you couldn't do it over again
00:49:56The only way you could have
00:49:58if there had been additional sample to test
00:50:00then you would do the whole process
00:50:02all over again
00:50:04and Sherry wouldn't be teaching at that time
00:50:06Because this was
00:50:08a little unusual
00:50:10most of our samples are swabbings
00:50:12or cuttings
00:50:14I had two of our newer analysts
00:50:16sit next to my workbench
00:50:18and watch me
00:50:20I felt like I was far enough
00:50:22away from my workbench
00:50:24so that my talking wouldn't interfere
00:50:26but obviously that was incorrect
00:50:28I think
00:50:30she realized that
00:50:32there was an error that occurred
00:50:34and there was still
00:50:36probative evidence there that could be gained
00:50:38and so because of that
00:50:40within the protocol
00:50:42she was allowed to ask for a deviation
00:50:44Now it was up to the supervisors
00:50:46to see whether or not this situation warranted it
00:50:48The FBI gives guidelines
00:50:50and has standards
00:50:52that all the crime labs should follow
00:50:54but sometimes a situation
00:50:56can come up
00:50:58You have to allow an element
00:51:00of common sense
00:51:02when you look at the data
00:51:04The FBI called for it
00:51:06and Sherry made the right call
00:51:08So basically she was doing her job
00:51:10she was being honest about how she was doing her job
00:51:12everything was notated
00:51:14there was nothing being hidden
00:51:16It was in her report
00:51:18it's in the discovery we gave the defense
00:51:20It goes back to integrity
00:51:22She's saying, hey look
00:51:24I ended up getting some of my DNA on the sample
00:51:26If we wanted to hide it
00:51:28why would she admit to it?
00:51:35The next exhibit
00:51:37You might have to zoom out a little on that
00:51:39What is depicted
00:51:41in exhibit 209?
00:51:43This one depicts the garage
00:51:45Brendan drew out the garage
00:51:47and he had the
00:51:49snowmobile in the garage
00:51:51he's got the vehicle in the garage
00:51:53he's got the lawnmower labeled
00:51:55Brendan, during his interview
00:51:57drew a sketch to include
00:51:59where Steven was when he shot
00:52:01or where he was located
00:52:04And I see initials
00:52:06there's two X's with initials
00:52:08one is BRD, what is that?
00:52:10I had Brendan label where he was standing
00:52:12and I had him label
00:52:14where Steve was standing
00:52:16when he shot her
00:52:20Why don't you put an X there
00:52:22and put his initials there
00:52:24One of the things that stood out to me
00:52:26when I saw that
00:52:28was the position of Steven
00:52:30Steven was in a position that
00:52:32when he saw where Brendan
00:52:34put Teresa on the floor
00:52:36it was quite conceivable that the bullet
00:52:38would have traveled through her body
00:52:40toward the back of the garage
00:52:42where the bullet fragment was found
00:52:44that had Teresa's DNA on it
00:52:50It was requested that we
00:52:52do a luminol treatment
00:52:54Luminol is a chemical test
00:52:56that reacts with blood
00:52:58Some things will react with luminol
00:53:00such as a copper penny
00:53:02the lead seals we use
00:53:04bleach reacts very strongly
00:53:06with luminol
00:53:08What about other kinds of things
00:53:10transmission fluid perhaps, oils
00:53:12things of that nature
00:53:14Transmission fluid might have
00:53:16some metals ground into it
00:53:18The area that you then sampled
00:53:20and tested with phenolphthalein
00:53:22you didn't find any
00:53:24any kind of blood reaction at all
00:53:26That's correct
00:53:28They were shot in the garage
00:53:30They jackhammered the floor
00:53:32The blood
00:53:34How's that happen?
00:53:36There's three circles between
00:53:38the stick person depiction
00:53:40and then there's
00:53:42a box above that, what is that?
00:53:44I believe it's a John Deere lawnmower
00:53:46sitting
00:53:48And what were the three circles that are
00:53:50depicted between the stick person and the lawnmower?
00:53:52I believe that's where he's drawing the blood
00:53:55How much blood was there on the floor?
00:53:57Quite a bit
00:53:59Where would it have been?
00:54:01Like by the lawnmower
00:54:05where the Jeep's tire was
00:54:07Strikingly
00:54:09that's essentially
00:54:11very close to the area that
00:54:13showed a positive presence
00:54:15for something when it was luminol
00:54:19Showing exhibit 107
00:54:21you have a laser pointer
00:54:23near this tractor
00:54:25in the rear of the snowmobile
00:54:27That wasn't just a spot
00:54:29on the floor, it was more of a
00:54:31smear
00:54:33Roughly three to four foot
00:54:35diameter area, faintly glowing
00:54:37under the luminol
00:54:39Couldn't see anything
00:54:41with the lights on, just swabbed
00:54:43several places
00:54:45and did not get a reaction with the phenolphthalein
00:54:49So what did that tell you
00:54:51as a forensic scientist
00:54:53about that large area
00:54:55and its reaction to luminol
00:54:57but did not react to the
00:54:59more specific phenolphthalein test?
00:55:01Well, there was something that had been
00:55:03spread out in a large area that was reacting
00:55:05I don't know what
00:55:09what cross reacts
00:55:11cleaning chemicals, dilute blood
00:55:13would react
00:55:15but it may not show up with phenolphthalein
00:55:17if it's been diluted enough
00:55:19He threw
00:55:21gas on it so he could
00:55:23get it off
00:55:25then he tried to paint it
00:55:27and then he went to bleach to get it off
00:55:29and like
00:55:31he was spraying it
00:55:33and it probably got on the floor
00:55:35and splashed up on my pants or something
00:55:37Brendan told several stories
00:55:39that there was bleach on his jeans
00:55:41that tied him to a clean up
00:55:43on the garage floor
00:55:45Do you recognize these?
00:55:47Yes
00:55:49These are the blue jeans that you were wearing
00:55:51on the night of October 31st
00:55:53Yes
00:55:55There were stains littering that floor
00:55:57and for some reason that night
00:55:59those two cleaned that spot
00:56:01with gasoline, paint thinner
00:56:03and bleach of all things
00:56:05and Brendan's pants have the bleach stains
00:56:07to prove it
00:56:09Did you ever wear those pants again?
00:56:11Not that I remember
00:56:13What did you do with them?
00:56:15I washed them
00:56:17that night and
00:56:19just put them in my dresser
00:56:21You're telling us
00:56:23you washed them
00:56:25that night?
00:56:27Yes
00:56:29Did you wash anything else that night?
00:56:31Not that I recall
00:56:33Just those pants?
00:56:35Yes
00:56:37A clean up of a single 3 by 4 foot
00:56:39square spot
00:56:41that a bullet was found
00:56:43feet away with her DNA on it
00:56:45Brendan said
00:56:47the RAV4 was backed into the garage
00:56:49if that RAV4 was backed in there
00:56:51we have her blood in the vehicle
00:56:53and we have a clean up spot
00:56:55that very well may be her blood
00:56:57Is it possible
00:56:59based on your training and experience
00:57:01for instance to have a pool of blood
00:57:03and say on a garage floor
00:57:05have it cleaned up
00:57:07to such an extent
00:57:09that you would not get a reaction
00:57:11to a phenolphthalein test?
00:57:13Well knowing what I know
00:57:15I could probably do it
00:57:17bleach would be a good thing
00:57:19some sort of peroxide
00:57:21would be a good way to get rid of the red color
00:57:23the bleach would destroy the blood
00:57:25and the DNA
00:57:27And then, oh it's just coincidental
00:57:29that Brendan turns over a pair of jeans
00:57:31that are stained
00:57:33with bleach
00:57:35because on the night of Teresa's murder
00:57:37he was helping
00:57:39his uncle Stephen
00:57:41clean the very garage
00:57:43where a bullet that was
00:57:45fired from Stephen's gun
00:57:47and contained DNA from
00:57:49Teresa Halbach was found
00:57:51Weird how that works
00:57:55Good evening
00:57:57the man charged with murdering Teresa Halbach
00:57:59is still saying he's innocent
00:58:01As the trial
00:58:03got closer
00:58:05I was made aware that
00:58:07Stephen Avery's defense attorneys
00:58:09were going to use the defense
00:58:11that myself and
00:58:13Lieutenant Link had planted
00:58:15blood in
00:58:17Teresa Halbach's vehicle
00:58:19and that Stephen
00:58:21Avery had no involvement
00:58:23in this crime
00:58:25We knew they were going with the planting defense
00:58:27the blood vial, that whole thing
00:58:29Initially, like when I
00:58:31first heard it, I thought to myself
00:58:33this is all they got?
00:58:35Because there's like no
00:58:37flipping way that this is going to work
00:58:41In court today, Avery's attorneys revealed
00:58:43that Manitowoc County has had a vial of Avery's
00:58:45blood for 10 years in the clerk's
00:58:47office
00:58:49I think we were all a little stunned to find out that the blood vial
00:58:51even existed, let alone that it was
00:58:53sitting in a box in the courthouse
00:58:55Apparently
00:58:57in the 1985
00:58:59case, a vial of
00:59:01Mr. Avery's blood
00:59:03was stored in the evidence
00:59:05holding area at our courthouse
00:59:07not in our evidence room
00:59:09at the courthouse
00:59:11When you were in prison, they ran tests
00:59:13Yeah, I don't know what the lab has got
00:59:15They ran
00:59:17quite a few tests on my blood
00:59:19Even at last, when I did the 18 years
00:59:21I had to re-give them some more
00:59:23I don't know what they do with that stuff
00:59:25So we learned that Stephen's blood
00:59:27was found in Teresa's car and then suddenly
00:59:29there's this vial with a hole in it
00:59:31and it's been tampered with, so of course
00:59:33everyone thinks that the blood's been somehow
00:59:35planted after that
00:59:37It's a very dramatic moment
00:59:39They make such a big deal out of it
00:59:41in making a murderer
00:59:43I spoke with a lab corps person already
00:59:45who told me they don't do that
00:59:47Wasn't that in the show that
00:59:49there was no reason for it to be punctured
00:59:51because that's not how the lab operated
00:59:53That's what I took away from that scene
00:59:55The hole in the blood vial
00:59:57was not put in there by someone taking
00:59:59the blood out of it, but rather
01:00:01by someone putting Stephen Avery's blood
01:00:03into the vial
01:00:05Correct, but the phlebotomist
01:00:07who drew the blood and put it in the vial initially
01:00:09Oh, initially
01:00:11I don't remember that making me serious
01:00:13to put back in
01:00:15That would have taken away from the ah-ha moment
01:00:17in the show, so, makes sense
01:00:19Why that wasn't there
01:00:21My sister-in-law is a nurse
01:00:23She had watched it
01:00:25and she said, it's the way these vials
01:00:27are done, you stick the hole in it
01:00:29and squeeze the blood
01:00:31We kind of knew back then that this
01:00:33nurse was going to testify
01:00:35if needed
01:00:37Defense ended up dropping the argument
01:00:39with the nurse sitting right there saying, nope, I'm the one
01:00:41who made that hole
01:00:43Fast forward a few episodes
01:00:45and you're not hearing anything about this blood vial anymore
01:00:47You would expect them to hit so hard
01:00:49I mean, these cops have this vial
01:00:51of Stephen Avery's blood
01:00:53but in the series it just kind of disappears
01:00:55and fades into the background
01:00:57Why is that?
01:00:59Because it was irrelevant
01:01:01Well, the blood vial, I actually went to school for phlebotomy
01:01:03I knew that the hole in it
01:01:05was not a big deal because that happens
01:01:07naturally, always
01:01:09The only thing that I thought was odd was that it was cut and then re-taped with scotch tape
01:01:11You had the issue
01:01:13of the
01:01:15broken seal on the package
01:01:17in which the vial was kept
01:01:19and no explanation for that
01:01:21The box itself had been
01:01:23originally sealed
01:01:25by evidence taped by the lab person
01:01:27who last tested it
01:01:29That seal was broken
01:01:31Well, of course what I learned about the blood vial
01:01:33was that it was
01:01:35a non-issue
01:01:37that in connection with
01:01:39Avery's exoneration
01:01:41his own counsel
01:01:43in the presence of the prosecution
01:01:45had opened
01:01:47the packaging
01:01:49There was a record of who had been in it
01:01:51It was his prior attorney's
01:01:53for a prior appeal
01:01:55and they pulled it out, removed fingernail
01:01:57scrapings and hair
01:01:59and they taped it back up in the presence
01:02:01of the court clerk
01:02:03That was under the
01:02:05court's approval back in
01:02:07Manitowoc County and that the
01:02:09individuals who did unseal the blood
01:02:11it was done under the auspices
01:02:13of a court
01:02:15Norm Gunn of the Milwaukee County District Attorney's Office
01:02:17who's serving as a special prosecutor
01:02:19wants the blood tested
01:02:21We would like to have access to the blood
01:02:23There is some chemical testing that we would like to do
01:02:25One of the first things
01:02:27I learned that was so
01:02:29incredibly telling
01:02:31that the state, they were the ones
01:02:33who wanted to test this blood because they were
01:02:35confident in what the answer would be
01:02:37We believe will show that
01:02:39this vial of blood had absolutely nothing
01:02:41to do with the case before us
01:02:43And it was Avery's lawyers
01:02:45who were actually fighting against getting the blood tested
01:02:47because they also, I believe
01:02:49knew what the answer would be
01:02:51I do not believe there are any
01:02:53tests that can be done on this
01:02:55vial of blood that are going to
01:02:57really shed any more light
01:02:59either side. I may be wrong
01:03:01but I very much
01:03:03object to unsealing the
01:03:05evidence and allowing the state
01:03:07to have free access to this blood at this time
01:03:09Avery's
01:03:11attorneys were doing everything
01:03:13they could to not test
01:03:15the blood for EDTA
01:03:17to not have the prosecution
01:03:19test it, to not test it
01:03:21themselves, all of which
01:03:23seemed kind of strange for people
01:03:25arguing that the blood came
01:03:27out of a blood vial full of EDTA
01:03:29After watching the show
01:03:31I was
01:03:33leaning guilty after some very
01:03:35early research, learning some
01:03:37evidence that had been left out
01:03:39There was forensic evidence they hadn't
01:03:41mentioned, some witnesses
01:03:43I would say it was solidified
01:03:45when the
01:03:47EDTA test was released
01:03:49600 pages of all the documentation
01:03:51regarding that test
01:03:53EDTA is basically
01:03:55a preservative that keeps blood from
01:03:57coagulating. So Stephen Avery's blood vial
01:03:59sample that was at the courthouse, it had
01:04:01EDTA in it. So if the theory
01:04:03holds that they took this blood vial and they
01:04:05dropped a couple of drops in Teresa's car
01:04:07then when they tested those blood drops
01:04:09it would have come back positive for EDTA
01:04:11except it didn't
01:04:13The defense has claimed that
01:04:15the blood came from a vial
01:04:17was debunked by
01:04:19the FBI's Mark Lebeau
01:04:21who said that EDTA
01:04:23was not found in the samples
01:04:25that would have been sufficient
01:04:27to keep the blood in liquid form
01:04:29We were not able to identify
01:04:31any indication of the
01:04:33presence of EDTA or
01:04:35EDTA bound to iron
01:04:37in any of the swabs that were
01:04:39reported to us as being collected from the
01:04:41RAV4. I realized that test
01:04:43was not shaky, it was not
01:04:45something new the FBI just came up
01:04:47with. It was a very good test
01:04:49and if there was EDTA in that blood
01:04:51it would have been detected
01:04:53The smallest volume
01:04:55of blood that we can measure
01:04:57out is one microliter
01:04:59and one microliter
01:05:01is one one millionth
01:05:03of a liter
01:05:05Clearly the blood from
01:05:07the vial isn't the blood
01:05:09that was in the vehicle
01:05:11I became
01:05:13thoroughly convinced that that was a
01:05:15total red herring
01:05:17that was a clever defense argument
01:05:19that almost worked
01:05:21but didn't
01:05:25Directing your attention then to the
01:05:27afternoon of November 8th
01:05:29approximately 1.30 in that afternoon
01:05:31did you have
01:05:33occasion to
01:05:35meet with
01:05:37a Manitowoc County
01:05:39Sheriff's Officer by the name of
01:05:41Jason Yost? I did
01:05:43Tell us about that encounter
01:05:45Prior to that
01:05:47we were at the command post and we
01:05:49were asked to go out and take a look at
01:05:51a variety of different things
01:05:53the earthen piles, the vehicles and so forth
01:05:55and
01:05:57along the way we came
01:05:59across Jason Jost who was standing
01:06:01in front of a red flag that had marked
01:06:03an item on the ground
01:06:09We're zooming in on what has previously been
01:06:11identified as the
01:06:13portion of the property attributed to
01:06:15Mr. Avery
01:06:17This is the earthen pile here
01:06:19We're standing just beyond it
01:06:21about 8 feet
01:06:23beyond that earthen pile
01:06:25and
01:06:29my opinion was and I think we kind of agreed
01:06:31that it was a piece of
01:06:33bone fragment
01:06:35and after looking at that
01:06:37I looked at this
01:06:39so called burn pit and also
01:06:41noticed other what in my
01:06:43opinion were bone fragments
01:06:45A lot of small
01:06:47pieces of burned bones
01:06:49were found in that burn pit
01:06:51area
01:06:53At least a fragment or more
01:06:55of almost every
01:06:57bone below
01:06:59the neck was recovered
01:07:01in that burn pit
01:07:03On the 10th of November did you know that it was
01:07:05human bones already?
01:07:07Yes. So where was the coroner?
01:07:09The county coroner?
01:07:11There was shit where the coroner was. The coroner has nothing
01:07:13to do with a forensic
01:07:15anthropologist. But it's all
01:07:17related. It's all related? How is a
01:07:19coroner related to whether those are bones or not?
01:07:21This should be good. What's the law in the county?
01:07:23If a dead body is found, who's called?
01:07:25Not the coroner
01:07:27They can arrest the sheriff. If there's a dead body in the county
01:07:29the sheriff cannot even stand in the way of the coroner from doing her job
01:07:31or his job. You're saying that
01:07:33what a coroner, by the way, who doesn't have to be
01:07:35a medical professional in Wisconsin
01:07:37You know what a coroner does? They walk in
01:07:39they kick the body and they say he's dead
01:07:41That's as far as their medical training goes
01:07:43You're saying that you should bring in
01:07:45that person rather than
01:07:47a forensic anthropologist to tell me
01:07:49who that is? I'm just asking you what was the law
01:07:51Was the law to bring in a coroner?
01:07:53Absolutely not. The coroner
01:07:55had no place to identify
01:07:57the body. What body are you talking
01:07:59about?
01:08:03Coming up on Convicting a Murderer
01:08:05Brendan Dassey had confessed
01:08:07to burning Teresa
01:08:09Halbach's clothing, but you don't see anything
01:08:11about her clothing or the jean rivets
01:08:13in Making a Murderer. He told me to go
01:08:15throw it on the fire. Throw what
01:08:17on the fire? The clothes.
01:08:19And it's not the only detail that they left out
01:08:21Other items were found in the burn
01:08:23area. One of them
01:08:25was Teresa's tooth. Her ashes
01:08:27her bone fragments were found in his
01:08:29backyard. And what do you do once she's
01:08:31on the fire? We threw some tires on top
01:08:33of her and some branches. Also
01:08:35left out are the tools that were
01:08:37found around the pit. There was
01:08:39a shovel. There was a rake.
01:08:41We tried to take the shovel and try to break
01:08:43the bone apart. You know why you don't know
01:08:45about that one? Because they didn't want you to know that
01:08:47Yeah, because they were showing us doctors
01:08:49Life in prison he's gonna get
01:08:51And he's only 16! And what am I
01:08:53supposed to do? I told you all along
01:08:55Keep your f***ing mouth shut