Leaders Lounge: UK can forge its own path in relations with China, Cowper-Coles says
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00:00Why did you choose China?
00:05Well, obviously China has changed.
00:08It's one of the most extraordinary transitions in human history.
00:12When I first went there in 1985,
00:15the streets of Beijing were empty apart from thousands of bicycles.
00:20But my acquaintance with China began much, much earlier than 1985
00:26when I was a schoolboy at a boarding school in Kent.
00:30We had a history master.
00:32At least he pretended to be a history master, a laoshi.
00:36He taught us for a year about China,
00:39about the history of the Chinese Republic,
00:43about Dr. Sun Yat-sen, about the warlords,
00:47the Japanese invasion, the triumph of the Communist Party.
00:51Your interest in China started then.
00:53My interest in China started then.
00:56And then when I joined the diplomatic service straight from Oxford,
01:01you're tested on your aptitude for hard languages.
01:05I chose Arabic because in those days,
01:08the camel corps, the Arabists, ruled the diplomatic service.
01:12Do you speak fluent Arabic?
01:14I do speak fluent Arabic.
01:15Do you speak any Chinese?
01:17Only a few words.
01:18So speaking fluent Arabic,
01:20you've been working with China over the past decade.
01:22I said to Premier Li Cheng in Beijing in May,
01:29I said,
01:30I love China.
01:32And he laughed at my terrible Putonghua.
01:36Yeah, it's like, I love China.
01:38That's what you said to him.
01:39And what did he say?
01:41He laughed.
01:42He didn't.
01:43What is the reason behind your career choice of working with China back then?
01:48Well, I went into the foreign office.
01:51I did all sorts of jobs working for the head of the foreign office,
01:55working as chief of staff for the foreign minister.
01:59China is a vast market.
02:01It's a very sophisticated market.
02:04Of course, there are challenges,
02:06the regulatory environment, language, culture.
02:10I think one area where China has made huge progress
02:14is in protecting foreign intellectual property.
02:18It used to be a worry if you went to China,
02:21you would have your intellectual property purloined in some way.
02:25That has been addressed by China very successfully.
02:29So it's a challenging market,
02:32but the rewards are enormous.
02:34China can transform your business.
02:37I mean, we had one member who made,
02:40I don't know if you know what a jukebox is.
02:43A little business outside Leeds in Yorkshire
02:47where this man made electronic phone 1960s jukeboxes
02:53and he was selling one a week.
02:55Then he got a phone call from China,
02:58we want 50 a week.
03:00And this man has become a millionaire
03:03through selling jukeboxes to China.
03:06It's that sort of effect.
03:08So the two countries are complementary in many ways.
03:11Very much so.
03:12And we're sitting here in the city of London,
03:14this amazing view.
03:16And of course, Britain is primarily a service economy.
03:20China is moving rapidly towards a service economy,
03:24but it's still the great manufacturing economy,
03:27the greatest manufacturing economy on earth.
03:30And also mutual trust is very important, apparently.
03:33And there are so many organisations
03:36that are trying their best to contribute to that,
03:39including the CBBC and CCC UK.
03:42And how do you think these two organisations
03:45are working together to facilitate trade ties?
03:47Well, very closely.
03:48I mean, Mr Feng Wenjian,
03:50who's also General Manager of the Bank of China here,
03:54he's a great friend of the UK.
03:56He's also a personal friend.
03:58He and I meet regularly.
04:00We talk even more often.
04:02We work together.
04:04Next January, we'll be taking part
04:07with the 48 Group Club in the annual Icebreakers dinner,
04:11which is the really central celebration
04:14of the UK-China economic and commercial relationship.
04:19So we know geopolitical tensions
04:22often spill over into the economic realm.
04:25And you said, I'm quoting you,
04:27that you want the CBBC to be an advocate
04:30for economic and commercial engagement
04:32between the UK and China
04:34in as apolitical a way as possible.
04:37Does it suggest that it is not that easy?
04:41No, it hasn't been easy.
04:43We've had a difficult time.
04:45We've had, I don't know,
04:47five prime ministers in the UK in almost as many years.
04:51We've had a Conservative Party
04:53ridden with tensions about attitudes to China.
04:58We've now got a government that I think, I hope, believe,
05:03almost know will be much more pragmatic to China.
05:07I'm very hopeful that we're entering,
05:10I wouldn't call it a golden era,
05:12but certainly a new era of pragmatic cooperation
05:18that is win-win in both sides' interests.
05:21And as a business professional,
05:23what are you expecting from the, you said, new era?
05:26And we know the newly elected Labour government said
05:29it would reassess the UK's relations with China
05:32within 100 days of taking office.
05:34And what are you expecting from that?
05:36Well, I hope very much,
05:38and the Foreign Secretary has already said this,
05:41that we can have resume engagement
05:44at the level of cabinet minister.
05:46We have goods and services to sell China.
05:50We have goods and services we need from China.
05:54I mean, the truth is, if we want,
05:56if we're serious about the transition to net zero,
06:00we can't do it without Chinese battery technology,
06:04without Chinese solar panels, without Chinese wind turbines.
06:09So we have to work together.
06:11Speaking of net zero,
06:13so recently a new chancellor said the UK wouldn't follow suit
06:17to impose additional tariffs on Chinese-made EVs.
06:22So have you seen an increasing trend in China-UK cooperation
06:26in the field of net zero?
06:28Very much so.
06:30I mean, all sorts of areas, a lot going on.
06:33I mean, if we go down to the street below, we will see...
06:36We'll see BYD buses.
06:38BYD, but not just BYD buses, build your dreams.
06:42The London Electric Vehicle Company, owned by Geely.
06:46Yeah, LEVC.
06:48I drive a hybrid Volvo, owned by Geely.
06:52And I hope we'll see many more Chinese electric vehicles in the UK.
06:58You may like it, but some are saying that China is overproducing
07:02its solar panels, its electric vehicles,
07:05and China is dumping its products in the European market.
07:09But we do see different rhetoric here.
07:12It's better to have an electric vehicle
07:15made in a factory in Shenzhen or in the Yangtze Valley
07:20That are more affordable.
07:22More affordable, more efficient.
07:24And to have financial services manufactured here
07:28in the city of London and sold into China.
07:32Or architectural services, or whatever it may be.
07:36That's the theory of comparative advantage at work.
07:40In the meantime, how much weight do you think the US carries
07:44in China-UK relations?
07:47Well, it has had a negative influence in the past.
07:52I've publicly said what is well known,
07:56that the second decision by Boris Johnson's government
08:02to rip Huawei equipment out of the UK telecoms network
08:08wasn't driven by national security.
08:10It was driven by American pressure.
08:13It's cost Britain about £10 billion
08:17and a three-year delay in the rollout of 5G.
08:22So it's a challenge.
08:24We have to pursue our national interests
08:28and we have to realise that national security,
08:32which is genuine and must be protected,
08:35is not the same as America's national superiority.
08:40There's a difference.
08:42So Britain needs to stand up for its own national interests,
08:47the interests of our people,
08:49working with our European partners,
08:52and not succumb to pressure from others
08:55where it's not in our national interest to do so.