Scotland's former First Minister Alex Salmond, who sought Scotland's independence from UK, dies at 69
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00:00Well, let's get more on Alex Salmond's death with Denis McShane, who is a former British
00:05Minister of European Affairs. Thanks so much for joining us on the programme, Denis. I want to
00:10first of all start off by, you know, asking you about Salmond because he's been described as many
00:15things over the last day, divisive, fiery, charming. Give us your thoughts on who you think he was.
00:21He was above all one of the new breed of nationalist politicians that we've seen
00:30grow in Europe in this century, who puts us on ethno-nationalist identity politics before
00:37everything else. He got a referendum on separating Scotland from the UK. Let me add,
00:45I was born in Scotland, my mother, half my family, obviously deeply, deeply Scottish,
00:49and I was always horrified at this attempt to break up a fabulous union of nations. We've seen
00:57that in Spain, people who want to break apart Catalonia from the rest of Spain, seeing it in
01:03England where Nigel Farage wants to break away England from the rest of Europe. And I can cite
01:09other examples around Europe. But as a man, incredibly charming. He loved to drink. He's
01:17very witty, a great guy to debate with. I disagree with him on liberating Kosovo from
01:25the Milosevic terrorism because, of course, he was opposed to taking action to defend Europe
01:32and support European democracy when it really counted. But a huge, huge figure, very controversial.
01:38Above all, he lost the independence referendum, so really killed the independence dream by calling it
01:44and it's never come back into life. And Scotland now economically and socially is in a far worse
01:49position than England, partly because of nationalist government there, which he represented.
01:55But personal problems, indeed, family problems, other problems, but a loss. I mean, he was a big,
02:04big figure, very witty, very charming. I mean, I may be a political critic, but I loved his company.
02:10Well, Dennis, I do want to just focus in on just how much of a role he played during
02:15that referendum in 2014. We've been mentioning that he is most known for that.
02:20Lay out for us the role that he played in that referendum.
02:24Well, very simply, he insisted on it. He said the Scots are panting for independence. And
02:31David Cameron, who paradoxically followed, to some extent, in Sam's footsteps by offering a
02:39plebiscite, a populist anti-immigration, anti-European plebiscite in England, has given
02:44us Brexit, which has done so much damage to England. But at the time, he said Scots were
02:49panting for independence. But they weren't. I mean, his particular group, his party, his sect,
02:55his nationalist supporters wanted it, wanted to break up the United Kingdom. And the Scots said,
03:02oh, hang on a second. Yeah, OK. I mean, we're a bit antsy about England. We don't like being
03:08run all the time by the English. But no, no, we're still part of the same nation state and
03:13we're much, much stronger together. And they quietly said, sorry, Alex, we're going to go
03:20with the Labour Party opposed it. The Liberal Democrats opposed it. And of course, the
03:24Conservatives opposed it. And Alex lost that. And after that, he became a slightly lost soul.
03:31A lot of controversy about women and court cases. Don't go into any of that on the day that he's
03:37just died. And he bust apart from Nicola Sturgeon, his Dauphin, and formed his own
03:47breakaway nationalist party called ALBA. But he got no votes in subsequent elections. And
03:53there he was touring bits of Europe, like North Macedonia, which is a great place,
03:58giving speeches to some American institute who paid big fees to ex-political leaders
04:04to come and give speeches. And Dennis, give us a sense of what sort of legacy he's going to leave
04:10behind now. British Prime Minister Kistamas called him a monumental figure who will leave
04:15behind a lasting legacy. Describe for us what that will be.
04:19Well, I'm slightly confused by Sakhir's enthusiasm. Look, he was a big figure. So
04:25obviously he's died and died rather suddenly, not at home, but suddenly in the Balkans.
04:33So people are paying, naturally, an emotional tribute. He's a very emotional man who generated
04:38very emotional responses. But his legacy, paradoxically, is that Scotland now is not
04:46going to leave the United Kingdom. The Scots are not going to follow Tory England into leaving,
04:54in England's case, Europe. And his party is much, much weaker now than when he was
05:01First Minister of Scotland. And my own view is across Europe, too. I'm not sure the ultra-ethno-nationalists
05:10who want to bust up the European Union are succeeding as well. I hope they may have peaked.
05:18And just briefly, I do want to ask you about where his death leaves the independence movement now.
05:24Well, weaker than ever. He's a very able successor, a woman called Nicola Sturgeon, who was a very,
05:33very impressive politician. He coached her, he tutored her, he brought her on. But then when
05:40she stood against him, he got very tense and upset. And the Scottish Nationalist Party started to
05:46break apart a bit. You see two of them there. She's now out of the picture now.
05:53You heard Mr Swinney, the current First Minister of Scotland, a moment ago. I mean, no disrespect.
06:01I mean, he's a thoughtful, serious man. He's already been First Minister for a while, 20 years
06:06ago. But that's all he's doing. And I'm afraid the idea that Scotland is going to bust apart
06:14the United Kingdom is no longer, I think, live on the agenda.
06:19Denis McShay, former British Minister of European Affairs. Thanks so much for joining
06:25us on the programme and giving us your thoughts there. We really appreciate your time.