Ketanji Brown Jackson, Associate Justice, U.S. Supreme Court (appearing virtually)
Interviewer: Ellie Austin, Fortune
Interviewer: Ellie Austin, Fortune
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00:00Justice Jackson, welcome to Most Powerful Women.
00:03We are so honoured to have you joining us today.
00:06Thank you. Thank you so much.
00:09CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
00:11Thank you so much.
00:13CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
00:23I'm delighted.
00:25Oh, thank you.
00:27APPLAUSE
00:31Justice Jackson, I hope you can see what's going on in the room.
00:35You have a full room of women giving you a very loud standing ovation.
00:39Oh, well, I'm just sorry I can't be there with you in person,
00:43but thank you so much.
00:45Well, I think we'll let you off the hook,
00:47because you've got some pretty important business
00:49that you're attending to.
00:51So, I want to start with a lovely one.
00:54Malin set it up brilliantly.
00:56It's a really beautiful book that spans your childhood in Miami,
00:59your time at Harvard,
01:01and then your ascent through the legal profession.
01:04And all of this is set against a really incredible backdrop,
01:07that in your family, it took one generation
01:10to go from your parents experiencing segregation
01:13to you sitting on the highest court in the land.
01:17What do you think it was about your upbringing
01:20that set you on this remarkable course for success?
01:25Well, I'll tell you,
01:27I think that it really was the timing of my birth
01:32that had a lot to do with my ability to get to where I am today.
01:37I was born in 1970,
01:40which was within five, six years of the Civil Rights Act,
01:45the Voting Rights Act,
01:47and the end of segregation in this country.
01:49And my parents, as you mentioned,
01:51had actually been subjected to that state of affairs.
01:55They were not allowed by law to participate fully in the society.
02:00And so when I was born, they were like,
02:03this is our shot.
02:05Our daughter is going to do all the things
02:08that we were not able to do.
02:10And they really poured themselves into preparing me
02:15for all of the opportunities that society was now giving them.
02:21So if there were swimming lessons,
02:23my mother put me in the swimming lessons.
02:25And if there was an opportunity to do a speech
02:29at the Dade County Youth Fair,
02:31I was doing the speech.
02:32And, you know, every piano lesson,
02:34everything that there was to prepare a child
02:38to really believe that they could do anything that they wanted.
02:42And then my father also decided to go back to law school.
02:47I was born in Washington, D.C.
02:49My parents were both public school teachers at the time.
02:52And then my father, when I was about three years old,
02:55decided he wanted, instead of being a history teacher
02:59in high school, he decided he wanted to be a lawyer.
03:03And so he got into the University of Miami,
03:06and we moved back to Miami.
03:07And one of my earliest memories is of sitting
03:12at our kitchen table in our apartment
03:14on the campus of the University of Miami
03:17with me across from my father.
03:20And he had all of his law books on the table,
03:23and I had all of my coloring books on the table.
03:25And just seeing his example
03:29as someone who could study law,
03:32I think really got me thinking from that early on
03:36that that might be something I wanted to do.
03:38And your husband, Patrick, and your two daughters
03:41are a really pivotal part of the book.
03:44And I was thinking about your daughters a lot
03:46when I was reading it and what it means to have a mother
03:49on the Supreme Court.
03:51As you are young women going out into the world,
03:56trying different things, probably messing up a bit
03:58as we all do, how do you balance allowing your daughters
04:02to have fun, be young, probably post on social media
04:07with the fact that your family is under more scrutiny
04:10than the average one is?
04:12Well, that's a great question.
04:14It's not easy, and I'm sure if you asked my daughters,
04:17they would have a different perspective than I do.
04:21You know, I think they are so proud of me
04:25and my husband, Patrick.
04:28The careers that we have chosen,
04:30mine obviously puts me in the spotlight
04:33more than the average person,
04:37but I think that their interest in seeing me succeed
04:41and our family succeed kind of keeps them under wraps
04:45a little bit more than if I wasn't in this position.
04:50But it isn't easy.
04:51I mean, it certainly is.
04:53I hope from the book that you got the sense
04:56that I was trying to be as transparent as possible
04:59about our journey and our family
05:02and the difficulties that we faced
05:04because I wanted people to see that, you know,
05:07ordinary people can do extraordinary things.
05:09I really did get that sense.
05:11You're incredibly honest about how difficult you found it
05:14when your daughters were younger.
05:15You talk about one of your daughters
05:17being diagnosed with autism,
05:18and I wondered, did you ever have any hesitation
05:21about writing such a personal book?
05:24You know, I did, but what's interesting is
05:28that I think the hesitation came
05:31at the time that I was considering
05:33whether or not to potentially accept the nomination
05:37to the Supreme Court
05:38if the president was going to extend it to me.
05:41And I talk in the book about a moment
05:43where the White House had contacted me
05:45to say that I was being considered
05:47along with some other people,
05:49and therefore I was on the short list
05:51to possibly be elevated.
05:53And I gathered our family because I felt
05:58that if we decided to go down this road,
06:01then our whole lives would be under scrutiny
06:04and in the spotlight.
06:06People might find out, for example,
06:08that my daughter is autistic.
06:10And I wanted everybody to be on board
06:12with those kinds of revelations.
06:15And then when it came time,
06:17after I'd gotten on the court
06:19and decided that I was going to write this book,
06:21you know, I just wanted to make sure
06:24that my daughters were comfortable
06:25with me revealing the information.
06:27I thought it was important
06:29if you're going to write a life story
06:31and explain the challenges that you face
06:34to be honest about it.
06:35And both of my daughters were very supportive,
06:38as was my husband of us just being honest
06:41about our circumstances.
06:43I have to ask a couple of questions
06:45about the court.
06:46We're obviously three weeks out from the election.
06:49There's lots of speculation
06:50about what's going to happen
06:51and the role that the court might play
06:53in the days and weeks afterwards
06:55if disputes arise.
06:56How likely do you think it is
06:58that you and your fellow justices
07:00might be called to intervene?
07:02You know, it's hard to say.
07:05It's hard to say.
07:07What we do as a court
07:09is we wait for cases to be filed.
07:13This is what distinguishes the court
07:15from other branches of government.
07:18The executive branch
07:20and the legislative branch
07:21can sort of look out into the universe
07:23and decide that they want to write legislation
07:27about certain things
07:28or they want to enforce certain policies.
07:31We wait until cases are brought.
07:34And so, you know,
07:35I think that based on past experience,
07:38the court has been asked
07:40to weigh in on legal disputes
07:43that happen around election time.
07:45So I wouldn't be surprised if we were,
07:47but it's hard to predict
07:50how likely it's going to be.
07:52And then in recent months,
07:53there's been various news stories
07:55about ethics on the Supreme Court,
07:57about flags being flown outside homes
08:00at a time when trust in the Supreme Court
08:02is at a historic low.
08:04Less than half of polled Americans
08:06say they have a favorable view of the court.
08:09How can you as justices
08:11convince the public of the court's objectivity?
08:16Well, you know,
08:17I think that the public trust
08:20in the court and justices
08:22is very, very important.
08:24I was talking a moment ago
08:26about the difference between the court
08:28and the political branches.
08:30And one difference is that
08:31we don't have any mechanism
08:33to enforce our opinions
08:35in the same way as Congress
08:37has the power of the purse
08:38and the executive branch
08:40obviously has the power of the military.
08:42We only have the public's belief
08:46in the rule of law
08:47and willingness to follow
08:49what it is that we decide.
08:51And so it's really quite important
08:55for the court to do its work
08:57in a way that people perceive
08:59as having integrity.
09:01One of the things we do
09:02to build that kind of trust
09:06is we write our opinions.
09:08Again, with the distinction
09:09between the political branches
09:12and the court,
09:13our branch actually,
09:15in most instances,
09:17required that we explain
09:19very thoroughly
09:20where we are coming from
09:22with respect to the opinions
09:23that we issue.
09:25And I think that's done in part
09:27because the public needs
09:29to understand
09:30and have trust
09:32in our positions.
09:33And so I think
09:35a continued line of communication
09:38is a very important thing
09:39and way that we can
09:41build public trust.
09:43And I want to talk a bit
09:44about your day-to-day life
09:46on the court.
09:47And you mentioned the opinions.
09:49And how maybe,
09:50how you deal with things
09:51when they don't go
09:52to plan professionally.
09:53So, you know,
09:54when a ruling is handed down
09:56that you don't agree with,
09:57whether it be affirmative action
09:59or Roe v. Wade being rolled back,
10:01how do you process that
10:02at the end of the day?
10:03Because on the one hand,
10:04it's a ruling that's going
10:05to have a huge impact
10:06on the American people.
10:07But I also imagine
10:09there's a degree
10:10of personal frustration
10:11and disappointment.
10:12How do you cope with that
10:14and kind of get back in there
10:15to justices' conference
10:16the next day
10:17or whenever it might be?
10:19Well, I'll tell you,
10:20I had the great good fortune
10:22of clerking for the justice
10:24whom I replaced,
10:26Justice Breyer.
10:27And one of the things
10:29that I try to do
10:30is emulate his way
10:33of being in the court,
10:35which is,
10:36and I talk about this in the book,
10:38I talk about my clerkship,
10:39I talk about how he was
10:42as a justice
10:43in terms of modeling
10:45this kind of ability
10:48to be optimistic,
10:49to brush himself off
10:52and go back into the conference
10:56with the other justices.
10:58You're talking about
10:59a branch of government,
11:00an institution that consists
11:04of nine people.
11:05So you really do,
11:07with lifetime appointments,
11:09so you really do have
11:11to get along.
11:12And I think one of the most
11:14important things
11:15is to try not to take
11:17anything personally.
11:19We do get the opportunity
11:21to voice our disagreements
11:23in the form of writing separately.
11:27And we lay out on the table
11:29what our views are.
11:31If they differ from the majority,
11:33then we write a dissent.
11:35And then we put it behind us
11:38because that's the way
11:39the institution is set up.
11:42And as you say,
11:43it's necessary for us
11:45to be able to do our jobs.
11:47And I want to hear more
11:49about that dynamic.
11:51At the moment on the court,
11:52there's a 6-3 conservative majority.
11:55We're at a time in the country
11:57where opinions are very divided.
11:59What advice can you give
12:01to the women in this room
12:03about peacefully coexisting
12:05alongside someone
12:06with very different views
12:07to your own,
12:08whether it be a co-worker
12:09or a family member at Thanksgiving?
12:11What's your personal code of conduct?
12:16Well, I mean, I think this is
12:18one of the things
12:19that the court tries to model
12:22that all courts do.
12:24Appellate bodies are judges
12:27sitting in panels
12:28dealing with very important
12:31and significant legal issues
12:33that, as you say,
12:34affect lots of people.
12:36And the practice, the tradition,
12:40is for people to go around
12:42and say their piece
12:44and try to persuade others,
12:47try to understand and listen
12:49to other people's point of view,
12:51try to come to consensus.
12:53One of the things
12:54that Justice Breyer
12:55was very, very good at
12:56is listening to another perspective
12:59and finding the thread in it
13:01that he could agree with
13:03and trying to build on that.
13:05Because the ultimate goal
13:07is the desire to want
13:09to move forward together
13:11and not to be sort of siloed
13:13in your separate corners.
13:15It's not easy.
13:16It's something
13:17that we have to practice.
13:19It's something that you are trained
13:22to do in law school, for example,
13:24where they put you
13:26into environments
13:27where you are debating constantly
13:29with people who have
13:31different viewpoints.
13:32But it's a very,
13:33very important skill,
13:34especially in a multicultural society
13:38to really listen to one another
13:40and to try to forge common ground.
13:44It truly is.
13:45And I wonder whether
13:46is everyone on the court
13:48as patient and gracious
13:49as you are, Justice Jackson?
13:51Or are there moments
13:53where it maybe gets
13:54a little heated?
13:56You know, I think that everyone
13:58really tries to adhere
14:02to this kind of philosophy
14:04because we all are there
14:06and we understand
14:07not only the stakes,
14:08but also the importance
14:09of our institution functioning.
14:12And it won't function
14:13unless we commit
14:15to this kind of philosophy
14:17as we go through
14:18these very difficult issues.
14:21Over the course of your book tour
14:23over the past couple of months,
14:25you've sat down
14:26with a lot of nosy people like me
14:27who have asked you questions
14:29about your fellow justices
14:31or the intricacies of cases
14:33that you can't answer
14:34for a combination of ethics
14:35and also simply respect
14:37for your colleagues.
14:38How have you found
14:39being the subject
14:40of all these interviews
14:41and being so squarely
14:43in the public eye
14:44over the past few weeks?
14:46Well, it's been
14:47a little bit of a jolt,
14:49I will say,
14:50because one of the things
14:51that judges and justices
14:53have to contend with
14:54is that we do sort of,
14:57I don't want to say
14:58we live in a different little bubble,
15:01but we're not out
15:02in the public very much
15:04in the same way.
15:06And so it's been
15:07very interesting.
15:09It's been lovely
15:10to talk to people like you
15:12and to get feedback on the book.
15:15When you write a book,
15:16you don't really know
15:17how people are going to respond.
15:19And so having people tell me
15:23that they saw parts of the book
15:26that resonated
15:27with their own experience
15:28was very gratifying to me
15:30or has been.
15:32But it's different
15:34than my day-to-day.
15:35I spend a lot of time
15:36in my chambers writing
15:38being a judge
15:39is sort of a solitary
15:41kind of activity.
15:43And so it's been nice
15:46to talk to real people.
15:48But you,
15:51when I was researching this
15:52and obviously reading the book,
15:53I didn't realize the extent
15:54to which you have written
15:56in the past.
15:57I think you toyed with the idea
15:58of writing a novel.
15:59You did write a draft of a novel.
16:00You did some time
16:01at Time magazine.
16:02What was it like
16:03to return to that vocation?
16:06Well, I loved it.
16:08I had a lovely co-collaborator,
16:13a woman who was
16:14a professional memoirist
16:16who assisted me.
16:18And that was helpful
16:19because it wasn't just me
16:20doing all the work by myself.
16:22But we had
16:23a wonderful partnership.
16:24And I've always loved writing.
16:28Writing is a lot of what I do,
16:30just writing opinions,
16:31not in book form.
16:33So this was this long form
16:35writing opportunity
16:36was really wonderful
16:37in a lot of ways.
16:39And my final question is,
16:40when I was reading the book,
16:41it struck me that it would make
16:42an amazing film.
16:44Oh!
16:45And I'm sure that's not
16:48the first time
16:49you've thought about that.
16:50Is that something
16:51you would like to happen?
16:52And if so, Justice Jackson,
16:54who would you want to play you?
16:56Oh my goodness.
16:58Well, I'm not going to answer
16:59the second question.
17:00I don't want to limit,
17:01I don't want to limit the universe.
17:04You know, I'd certainly
17:05be open to it.
17:06I honestly, you know,
17:08wrote the book
17:09just hoping that
17:10the narrative form
17:11would be attractive to people.
17:14So I don't know whether or not
17:15it will become a film.
17:18But I appreciate the idea.
17:21Justice Jackson,
17:23it's an honor
17:24to have you with us.
17:25Thank you so much for your time.
17:27Thank you very much.