Canada’s Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has continued his aggressive stance against India. During a public inquiry into foreign interference in Canada’s internal affairs, Trudeau said, “The Indian government made a horrific mistake in thinking that they could interfere as aggressively as they did in the safety and sovereignty of Canada. We need to respond in order to ensure Canadians’ safety.”
To understand Trudeau’s endgame in persisting with his damning accusations against the government of Prime Minister Narendra Modi, MCR spoke to Terry Milewski, one of Canada’s best-known journalists and writers who has spent decades tracking the pro-Khalistan movement in his country and how it has gained so much political clout.
To understand Trudeau’s endgame in persisting with his damning accusations against the government of Prime Minister Narendra Modi, MCR spoke to Terry Milewski, one of Canada’s best-known journalists and writers who has spent decades tracking the pro-Khalistan movement in his country and how it has gained so much political clout.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00Bilateral relations between India and Canada face the prospect of permanent damage, unless
00:17the two choose to de-escalate their unprecedented tensions over the incendiary issue of the
00:23brazen advocacy of Khalistan by a section of the Sikh population.
00:28Canada's Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has continued his aggressive stance against India
00:33for the second day on October 16th.
00:36During a public inquiry into foreign interference in Canada's internal affairs, Trudeau said
00:42and I quote,
00:43The Indian government made a horrific mistake in thinking that they could interfere as aggressively
00:48as they did in the safety and sovereignty of Canada.
00:52We need to respond in order to ensure Canadians' safety."
00:57He only feebly tried to nuance his position, saying Canada is not looking to provoke or
01:03create a fight with India.
01:05To understand Trudeau's endgame in persisting with his damning accusations against the government
01:10of Prime Minister Narendra Modi, MCR spoke to Terry Malarski, one of Canada's best-known
01:16journalists and writers, who has spent decades tracking the pro-Khalistan movement in his
01:23country.
01:25Welcome to MindShare Report, Terry.
01:26It's always a great pleasure to have you.
01:28I want to thank you for your time.
01:30Thanks for the invitation.
01:31I appreciate it.
01:32I just read that, I don't know how true that is, but Prime Minister Trudeau told the Foreign
01:39Interference Commission, it seems, that they had intelligence and not proof, evidentiary
01:46proof.
01:47Is that what is going on?
01:49Did you hear that?
01:50I think it may just be a little linguistic point, really, that if you've got intelligence
01:58that's good, well, it's in the court and it's evident.
02:03But if it's something that somebody heard and it's hearsay, then it's not.
02:12But if I saw it happen, and an intelligence agency wiretapped my phone, that's evidence.
02:23And it's no use saying, oh, it's only intelligence.
02:26So I think it's a bit of a sterile argument.
02:30Why is he so coy about this?
02:32Why is he not saying straight on that we have...
02:35Because they don't want to ruin the trial.
02:37They don't want to ruin the trial.
02:38Listen, it's completely routine.
02:42And I'm surprised that people are surprised by this, honestly.
02:46In Canada.
02:47No, I think it's routine everywhere, you're right.
02:52The prosecution doesn't make their case in public or the judge is going to throw it out.
02:56The judge is going to say, you can't try this place in the public, to lay out the evidence,
03:02to make the guy look bad and hacken his reputation, and they take the jury pool.
03:09I mean, that's not, you know, that's completely normal.
03:13The prosecutions are always coy about that.
03:16It's not something that the government of Canada has invented.
03:21No, I understand that.
03:22But I'm saying, at the very least, he could have said that we have evidence, something
03:28that he has not said.
03:29On that, I think you're quite correct.
03:31I think that he did make a strategic blunder at the outset of this, by failing even to
03:37characterize the evidence.
03:39I mean, police and prosecution, both in Canada and the United States, do have practical charges,
03:45which they allegedly are going to be charged with, these criminals did this and that and
03:51the other.
03:52But they don't lay out the details of the evidence, because that is prejudicing the
03:58trial, and there are lines there not to be crossed.
04:03And so there's a second restraint on the government in Canada's case, and that is the use of foreign
04:11intelligence.
04:12Remember what we're talking about here.
04:15There are Canadian wiretaps, there are American wiretaps, and we've shared these under the
04:21arrangement of the so-called Five Eyes Intelligence Sharing Arrangement, and we can't release
04:31that.
04:32We get that intelligence from the US on a just-between-us basis, and we wouldn't have
04:41any Five Eyes intelligence if we went around broadcasting it on the CBC.
04:49That's not going to work.
04:51So I think that is, in some respects, not entirely, it doesn't capitalize the whole
04:58case.
04:59But that aspect of the case, the government has to be very careful with that.
05:04And if he wrecked the case by blabbing about US intelligence, it would just be in trouble
05:10with the public for blowing the case, it would be Americans for blowing their intelligence.
05:17My suspicion, Terry, is that perhaps the Canadian case rests very, very significantly on American
05:25intelligence, and something that Americans may be rather wary of getting that revealed
05:31because of relations with India could become a bit difficult if that happens.
05:37Yes, I think you're onto something there, because I was told, and I was not alone in
05:42this, early in the process, that it was really the American intelligence that was more detailed
05:49and quenched the case was suggested by the Canadian wiretaps with facing pieces of paper.
05:55How come these people have got friends inside the Indian intelligence agency, but they didn't
06:04necessarily have a lot of detail on what they were saying?
06:07There's no looking gun where you say, okay, please go and kill Hadi Nidhar, I will pay
06:12you X amount of dollars.
06:16It wasn't that good, but it got better, and there was more detail in the American intelligence,
06:24for example, as quoted in the indictment of Nikhil Gupta, who is alleged in the FBI's
06:30indictment in New York, to have been the handler who was sent out, hired by a government employee
06:39in New Delhi, to go out and hire some goons or a hitman to dispose of the deceased justice
06:46leader, Gopatran Singh Pannu.
06:51He's quoted there in the indictment, paragraph six, paragraph 28, saying that Nidhar was
07:00telling the hitman, obviously recorded, telling the hitman that Nidhar is also
07:08target of this same plot.
07:10It's one plot with those two and other targets.
07:14Anyone who says, well, that's a completely different case, the American case, the Indian
07:18case, so unrelated, completely unrelated.
07:20You hear that a lot.
07:22It's absolute, but it's one plot with many targets.
07:26Speaking of Pannu, I saw a video where he claims that he had been in touch with Trudeau
07:34for the better part of the last three years.
07:36Isn't that problematic?
07:39Yes, it is, because Gopatran Singh Pannu habitually whips up hate, whips up, let's say, the
07:55sort of fan mail, terrorists of various kinds, Pakistani terrorists, I mean, who include
08:04naming the referendum headquarters, his referendum on Afghanistan after Talbinder Parmar, who's
08:13only the worst mass murderer in Canadian history.
08:16He's the author of the Air India bombing of 1935.
08:20331 totally innocent civilians out of the sky for nothing.
08:29I mean, it was the worst act of terrorism anywhere, not 9-11.
08:34And in my view, Pannu's influence, for example, going to the memorial for the Air India victim,
08:45to say how badly he feels for the victim while he's simultaneously picking Lamar, the mastermind
08:53of that, who killed them, those victims, and celebrating him with the poster boy of the
09:01referendum campaign, I mean, it's a lame.
09:04I mean, to me, that's too much.
09:09I mean, and the recent escalation of that in Canada by Pakistanis showing up and photo
09:18bombing memorial ceremonies, as they did last year and plan certainly to do again on the
09:2540th, next year, 40th anniversary, I mean, of the bombing, that escalation, showing up
09:33and throwing Pakistanis in the bar when the families are trying to mourn their dead.
09:40That crosses so many lines.
09:43You barely want to think about it.
09:46But that's what's happening.
09:47And Pannu is the man behind it.
09:51So he also traffics in fake news and wild exaggerations,
09:59and publicity calling to boycott Air India on June 23rd, the anniversary of the bombing.
10:09You know, it's not very kind to the families of the victims.
10:14No, it's not.
10:15You know, people don't realize we are barely two weeks away from the 40th anniversary of
10:21the assassination of Indira Gandhi.
10:23October 31st.
10:24Indeed.
10:25And I wrote about it.
10:27And for Trudeau to have come out with this, maybe he didn't realize it himself, is fairly
10:36interesting and significant to me.
10:39I don't think he even considered that fact when he was saying what he was saying.
10:43And now he's doubling down on it.
10:45What do you think is the endgame here, politically and legally?
10:49Well, I think that Trudeau knows that he's probably toast, to use a polite word.
11:01You know, the pollsters aren't lying.
11:05And let's face it.
11:05I mean, it happened to Harper.
11:07It happened to KJ.
11:08You know, the decade in power is usually about nine in Canadian politics.
11:15And your time is up.
11:17It doesn't really matter.
11:19The details don't matter.
11:21People are tired of you and they want a new prime minister.
11:25And he seems to be at that stage.
11:27Maybe he'll prove me wrong.
11:28It's not beyond the bounds of possibility.
11:30But I think that he's not playing some grand strategic
11:38here to make India look bad.
11:44There's no point in that.
11:45That doesn't serve Canadian interests in any way.
11:50Or to join with the CIA, as I've been told by some Indian correspondents,
11:58join with the CIA in a plot to smear India and tear its influence down because
12:03they're afraid now that India is a rising power and blah, blah, blah.
12:07You know, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
12:09None of this makes any sense, number one.
12:12And number two, I think that Trudeau means what he says,
12:18is that if he's going to go and his term in office is ending,
12:24he would like it to be part of his legacy.
12:28Not that he sat there and said when he was told that
12:34foreign agents were killing Canadian citizens on Canadian soil,
12:38well, I don't care.
12:39You know, the guy was a terrorist anyway.
12:41Well, then kill him.
12:42I'm not going to raise my voice about that.
12:44Be a bad prime minister.
12:46Rather, that he would like to go out as somebody who stood for something,
12:52liberal cause, Canadian sovereignty.
12:56That is to say that we're not going to tolerate that kind of behavior,
13:03even by a mighty nation, a rising nation, and a valued trading partner called India.
13:09We're not going to stand for it.
13:11And if I said the opposite, and I said nothing,
13:15and I passively endorsed and looked at it the other way,
13:19while foreign agents come to Canada and kill people,
13:24he doesn't want to go down as that kind of prime minister.
13:27Right.
13:29What happens now in terms of bilateral relations, you think?
13:33But do you think the two countries can recover from this for the foreseeable future?
13:40I've been thinking about that one.
13:41And that is a difficult question.
13:43Thanks a lot for asking it, making my life harder.
13:48The way I see it, and you may call it simplistic,
13:50but the way I see it is that this ends with a grubby little peep.
13:55It doesn't end with a grand agreement, you know,
13:59signed with a flourish.
14:01But Trudeau and Modi join hands and sign a declaration that they're going to be the best.
14:08This isn't going to happen.
14:09It's all going to be, I believe, swept under the rug.
14:13The quiet commitments by the government of India,
14:17not made public for the consumption of the Indian public,
14:22that they're going to cool it on this kind of behavior.
14:28And that in return, they will.
14:35That in addition, I'm sorry, I'll correct that.
14:38That's part of it.
14:40But that we will hold accountable those who are directly responsible for the Nijjar affair.
14:47By holding them accountable, I don't mean lock them up
14:51for the rest of their lives in a Canadian prison,
14:54but rather levy local charges against them.
14:58Which after a couple of years, if the guy gets quietly released,
15:03there's no press release and nobody knows about it.
15:05Okay.
15:06They have to have somebody to throw them at work.
15:08Somebody has to be under the bus and say,
15:11look, we're holding them accountable.
15:12He's going to be on trial.
15:13And boy, we're going to give him a really hard time.
15:17Then privately, they'll give him a gold watch and thank him for his service.
15:22Then, on the other hand,
15:27the Indian leadership,
15:30Modi, who's mindful of his popularity,
15:32particularly in view of the outcome of recent elections,
15:39now he's scrambling for government.
15:42He would be able to say,
15:44we scored a great victory in these negotiations.
15:48We scored a great victory.
15:49Yet Canada has now signed a paper
15:51committing to crack down on Palestinian propaganda in Canada.
15:56Right.
15:57And what form that takes,
16:00maybe, but at the very least,
16:03I mean, it would be completely rational.
16:04And the victory for Canada would be if the Prime Minister,
16:08whoever it is, when my imaginary agreement comes to pass,
16:13steps up and says, okay, from here on in,
16:16no member of my party,
16:18I hope no member of yours in the opposition,
16:21will attend any festival,
16:25at any Vaisakhi parade,
16:27where there are to be displayed posters
16:31honouring and glorifying the worst mass murderer in Canadian history.
16:36Or there won't be any trucks
16:39driving through the centre of Brampton, Ontario,
16:42carrying a life-size diorama,
16:45illustrating and celebrating the assassination of Indira Gandhi,
16:49as you rightly point out, on 31st 1984.
16:53So that would be a victory for Canada.
16:56It would be a writing of a balance,
16:59which has got completely out of whack.
17:02Where anything goes, apparently,
17:04and all parties,
17:06Lito, Polyev, and Jagmeet Singh,
17:09all go in Toronto to a Karasani event
17:13where everyone's shouting,
17:14first time Zindabad,
17:16and, you know, let's break up India.
17:19And they all just don't ban an island.
17:24It's all perfectly normal.
17:27If the Prime Minister, on Canada's behalf,
17:30in this imaginary negotiation,
17:32signals that this is going to come to an end,
17:34we're not going to win.
17:37The whipping up of more terror,
17:42and the whipping up of hate against India and Indians,
17:45Hindu attacks on Hindu people,
17:50we're not going to put up with that anymore.
17:53That could legitimately be painted
17:56as a victory for Canadians and Indians.
17:59Right.
17:59Given your long experience,
18:03the way Trudeau has doubled down,
18:05for whatever reasons,
18:06do you think he has something of substance
18:09that he's very confident about,
18:11or he's just bragging for no reason?
18:15Yes, it's another good question,
18:18because the RCMP haven't produced it, have they?
18:21They haven't charged anyone in India.
18:25They've charged, in the Nijjar case,
18:28four punks, if you'll excuse me,
18:33who, you know, came as so-called students
18:36and didn't apparently study anything,
18:38maybe how to get a gun.
18:40And they have so far been charged with murder,
18:46but we don't know who paid them.
18:48I mean, somebody paid them,
18:50because, I mean, what beef do they have with them?
18:54Right.
18:55We don't know of any beef that they had with Nijjar.
18:58And before that, by the way,
18:59comes the trial of the similarly two punks,
19:03White Pink, Fox and Lopez, I believe,
19:08Right.
19:09who are accused of the assassination
19:11of Rupuram Singh Malik a year earlier,
19:14three years ago, also in Surrey,
19:19in a very suspicious case.
19:22We don't know whether it was gang warfare,
19:24a local vendetta, perhaps,
19:27implicating even Nijjar himself.
19:30This is a stew of possible motives and speculation,
19:33and I don't think the RCMP have sorted that out either.
19:36So we haven't got to the bottom of these murder cases,
19:40to anything like the extent to which the FBI have gone
19:45in the American indictment,
19:46where I've already described some pretty detailed stuff.
19:50We haven't got to that level of detail.
19:52Who was behind it all?
19:53We haven't got there yet.
19:54But it's clear from the decision,
19:59never mind what they actually said,
20:00very carefully,
20:02in a press conference,
20:03that the fact that the RCMP, led by their commission,
20:07got to say,
20:07look, we're non-political,
20:11and this is real fun.
20:13This isn't some politician
20:14trying to boost his own profile,
20:16facing political, you know.
20:19It isn't him talking,
20:21this is us talking,
20:23and we're interested in crime, not politics.
20:27Just last couple of things, Terry.
20:30Let's say, for the sake of argument,
20:32that this was indeed an operation
20:35conducted by some elements of the Indian state.
20:41I would like to believe
20:42that they would have kept a series of fall guys ready
20:44in case things went south.
20:47Don't you think they would have known
20:48that this can be traced back,
20:50considering everybody's tapping everyone else's case now?
20:54It does read like a cheap movie, doesn't it?
20:59The more you look at the indictment,
21:00there's a section there, you may have noticed it,
21:02where allegedly the handler in New Delhi
21:06talking to the lead hitman in New York,
21:11was saying,
21:12oh yeah, we're all rooting for your success
21:14in this mission to kill,
21:16and look, here are all my buddies
21:18all waiting on your success.
21:19Turns the phone around on a video call,
21:22shows these guys in suits at a conference from New Delhi.
21:27Oh yeah, sure, yeah.
21:28I'm sure they were really happy
21:29to be on camera at that point.
21:32I mean, really?
21:33Were they that confident?
21:36Did they smile and wave too while they're on camera?
21:39Come on, does the FBI have that video?
21:42I'd like to see that.
21:45There are elements like that,
21:46which sort of almost pass belief, really,
21:48that people, I mean,
21:50I suppose it's possible they could be,
21:52if they were confident enough
21:54to launch a murder operation
21:55in somebody else's country,
21:58not just one, but several prominent targets
22:03who were known to be at risk.
22:08That takes guts.
22:09That takes some nerve.
22:11So maybe that story is true,
22:13but I agree with you that it's a bit suspicious.
22:18It's a bit cheap,
22:21but maybe we don't know how these things work
22:24and we're not experienced in plotting murder.
22:28To conclude, Terry,
22:30what do you make of the comment
22:32from the police officer,
22:35I forget her name,
22:36who has explicitly mentioned the Bishnoi gang,
22:40Lawrence Bishnoi connection?
22:42Yes, yes.
22:44That's also very cinematic, isn't it?
22:47But another thing that I find hard to believe,
22:50maybe you know more about this kind of thing,
22:51but I find it a little bit hard to believe
22:54that a serious gangster from his jail cell in India
23:01directing murder operations around the globe.
23:07I mean, I think I'm not alone.
23:14If he had state help in some fashion.
23:21Yeah, I mean, the trials will come up
23:23and they're going to shed new light
23:25on some aspects of this.
23:27Even if they don't say,
23:28okay, now one of the accused
23:31has made a deal with the prosecution
23:33where in return for a license,
23:34he's going to rat on the people who paid him.
23:38Right.
23:39My belief is that probably in that case,
23:42as an indicted,
23:43you may not know who paid him.
23:44It's just, you know,
23:45there's a drop off cash in there.
23:48So I'm not going to introduce myself
23:49as the guy who paid.
23:51Although that is apparently
23:53what happened in the New York case.
23:56I mean, there's a picture of the pound payment
23:59of $15,000 in evidence.
24:03So I guess all things are possible.
24:07There could be some things
24:09that seem pretty fantastic to us now
24:12that turn out to be true.
24:13And there may be other things
24:15that feel a hidden, official, governmental hand.
24:21And I think that somebody
24:23will have to be thrown the wolf.
24:25But the Indians cannot go on.
24:27I just add one thing.
24:29They do not think the Indians can heal.
24:32And I'm sympathetic to their case.
24:34They are correct.
24:35Canada has been shamefully,
24:38painfully tolerant and indulgent
24:42of the Talistani threat.
24:43It's just gone way too far.
24:46But I don't think they can go on
24:47saying to the Americans,
24:49oh, we're going to take your case very seriously
24:52and set up a high-level commission.
24:54It's on its way in the U.S. now.
24:57I think it soon will be.
25:01And we're going to work with the Americans
25:03and then turn around and say that the same story
25:07from the Canadians is preposterous.
25:13I think those are both quotes.
25:14Right.
25:16I don't think even, I mean, pick a lane.
25:19True.