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00:00Hi, thanks so much for joining in.
00:09You're watching the Mutual Fund Show on NDTV Profit and my name is Alex Mathieu.
00:13This show gets you actionable insight to everything related to mutual funds, so whether it is
00:18the right portfolio to build or which scheme to choose, you'll find answers right here.
00:24And by the way, let's pull up that number on the screen if we possibly can.
00:28That's where you can send us your queries in case you've got questions on the mutual
00:33funds that you have or the ones that you intend to buy or invest in and make sure to tell
00:39us your goals when you write in your questions so that we can address them with the knowledge
00:44of why you need the money.
00:46But on today's program, I want to focus on passive investing.
00:49Now it's fairly discussed, we've had a fair amount of conversations about the usage of
00:58passive and how useful it is, but let's draw the line under how you should actually employ
01:04the strategy.
01:05And a lot of people have spoken about how it should be part of your core portfolio.
01:10We'll talk about that as well, the benefits of doing that.
01:13Vishal Jain, who is the Chief Executive Officer of Zerodha Fund House is joining me on this
01:19conversation.
01:20Vishal, thanks so much for taking the time and pleasure having you.
01:23You are part of a fund house that has chosen to embrace passive wholeheartedly.
01:28So it's the only type of product that you offer.
01:33And I would think that's because you feel that that's a strong way to create wealth
01:38over the long term.
01:40Can you take us through the thinking as to why you only offer passive?
01:46I think one of the large motivation factors for us to go the only passive way is to help
01:52increase penetration.
01:53So if you look at penetration at this point of time in the industry, we're touching approximately
01:59about 5 crore unit portfolios in the industry.
02:04And in our opinion, penetration is quite limited at this point of time.
02:09If you want the next 10-15 crore guys to start using mutual fund products to build better
02:17financial outcomes for themselves, then you need to introduce products which are very
02:21simple.
02:22And I think passive products are the ones that tick all those boxes.
02:25I mean, they're transparent, they're low cost, they're easy to understand.
02:29And I think that's the main objective why we have decided to use passive products in
02:34our strategy.
02:36The cost of oversimplifying this, I do want to mention, and of course, a lot of you tuning
02:42in on the various social media platforms and on television will know the difference between
02:47passive and active.
02:48But I'd like to keep this as open as possible and, you know, reach out to as many people
02:54as possible.
02:55So very simply put, a passive strategy is where the fund manager does not choose individual
03:01stocks.
03:02The strategy simply mirrors an existing index.
03:06So if you've got questions, by the way, on that, you can write to us and we will simplify
03:10it further.
03:11But at this point, we assume that you know what we're talking about.
03:15Let's talk about whether or not this can form part of a core strategy.
03:20Vishal, I understand that your contention is that it very much can and should, but there
03:25are caveats here, right?
03:29No, I think, see, there are, well, why does one invest in equity?
03:34I think, let's get back to that.
03:36I think, I see two main reasons.
03:40One is that, you know, most of us are bullish about the country and we want to sit on the
03:45Indiago story.
03:46And the second thing is to beat inflation, right?
03:49And in the process of doing that, you know, that's why we invest in equity.
03:54And why, see, a passive fund becomes an important piece of that pie simply because it's a low-cost,
04:01simple strategy for you to take exposure to the Indian markets.
04:04The biggest benefit of passive is the fact that whether it was 20 years back or whether
04:09it's 20 years ahead, right, you will always be invested in the best companies that are
04:14there in the Indian market.
04:16And it's a low-cost and transparent strategy as compared to any other strategy that is
04:20there in the market.
04:21So, a strategy like a passive strategy or a well-diversified basket is something that
04:26should form the core of your portfolio, right?
04:29And I always go and tell people that, look, there will always be times when you believe
04:35that there may be some other strategies which may generate better returns, but you can kind
04:39of build your portfolio in a core and satellite kind of a manner where the core becomes a,
04:46you know, becomes a main part of your strategy.
04:48That is, you want equity returns.
04:51And the satellite part, which is, say, the smaller part of your portfolio, is where you
04:55can actually take exposure to alternative strategies, right?
04:58And people can kind of use this approach in a very disciplined manner to be able to get
05:04benefit of both worlds, actually.
05:07Let's pull up some data because I asked my team to pull up some performance indicators
05:13and we basically looked at the 10-year performance of the passive category of mutual funds.
05:20And most of these are going to be either Nifty 50 funds or Nifty Next 50 funds or the Nifty
05:28100 funds because only off late you had the broader gauges being announced and launched,
05:35but the best performer is the Nippon Next 50 fund over the last 10-year period, 16.8
05:43percent return, and the broader gauges have actually not necessarily beaten that.
05:49So the 100 ETF has actually done 13.7 percent or thereabouts.
05:53And we also have actively managed large-cap fund performers and we've looked at the top
05:5810 or the top five performers here.
06:01The Nippon India large-cap fund has made about 15.7 percent in that same period.
06:08Vishal, you pointed out that cost is a major factor here.
06:14In order to consistently outperform the passive and also the benchmark, you would have to
06:22have a differential of what, 1.5 percentage points for an actively managed fund, which
06:27is very hard to get, right, consistently?
06:32Yeah.
06:32So if you look at most passively managed funds, whether they're ETFs or index funds, most
06:39of them range between 0.05 percent to about, I would say, 0.25 to 0.3 percent or so.
06:48Though TERs have come down on the active side, so on the large-cap side, you will find that
06:53TERs have now come to 0.6, 0.7 percent, but on an average, most active funds have a TER
06:59ranging to about 1, 1.25 percent or so, especially if you go towards the mid-cap, flexi-cap and
07:06other categories that are there.
07:08Now assume that there is a fund where your expense ratio is, say, 1 percent and you have
07:14a passive fund, which is, say, at 0.25 percent.
07:17Every year, 0.75 percent is what you are saving or is the additional part of your funds that
07:24are getting invested in the market.
07:26Now look at it over a longer period of time.
07:28I mean, that 0.75 percent into 10 years becomes 7.5 percent of additional money, your money,
07:34which is getting invested in the market.
07:35And that's how an expense ratio, lower expense ratio, benefits investors in the long term.
07:42I also want to point out the number of schemes that are currently offered.
07:48And after that, I have a quick question on when the outperformance takes place.
07:54Obviously, the most offered product is the Nifty 50 index, and 37 AMCs are currently offering it.
08:0320 AMCs are offering the Nifty Next 50.
08:06The Sensex Index Fund is offered by 20.
08:09The Nifty Bank, there is an offer of 13.
08:11And the Nifty Mid-Cap 150 Index is offered by 12.
08:16There are two or three that are offering the absolute broadest gauge, which is the 500 right now.
08:23And that is actually done reasonably well over the last five years.
08:28Vishal, I'm actually curious about what you have to say about this.
08:32Largely, it's been seen that the outperformance of a passive strategy takes place when there is a bull run,
08:38when there's a move upwards.
08:41The downside protection is always highlighted as a bit of a sticking point in why maybe an active would score better than a passive.
08:50How do you balance that?
08:53So I think your question or your statement is loaded in many ways.
08:58The first thing is, you know, you mentioned that Nifty 50 is where a lot of the schemes are.
09:06I'd like to highlight that if you looked at, you know, the Indian economy as a whole,
09:12you would find that all the way up to about 2013 to 2014 or so,
09:17you found that large caps are the ones that were kind of outperforming most of the segments of the market.
09:22Post-2014, it was when the mid-cap started doing well and now people have actively started looking at the small cap.
09:29So therefore, you'll find that a lot of AUM is loaded towards the Nifty 50
09:34because historically, that's where the money has been invested in, in the Indian context, right?
09:40In terms of your, you know, your question on whether in a downward market,
09:47passive, you know, or an active strategy will outperform, very difficult to say, Alex.
09:53First is, how do you define or when do you get to know that there's a downward market coming?
09:58It's only once it happens and you get to know.
10:01The second thing is, even if there are schemes that have outperformed, you know, the benchmark,
10:06it's difficult for you to have picked the right scheme, right?
10:09And you will get to know only when you look at data, which is in hindsight.
10:12If somebody came and asked you that if the markets will fall,
10:16which is that one scheme that one or two schemes that you should pick up in a downward market,
10:21it's very difficult for you to kind of pick and choose.
10:24And how do you pick and choose?
10:25I think that's a big question and dilemma that anybody has.
10:30It's a fair point.
10:32But what about the point about now, obviously, we've moved quite a far distance from 2014.
10:39Even over the last year, Vishal, I'm talking about actively managed, of course,
10:43because I was looking at that data the most recently.
10:46Maybe you can tell me about the passive assets under management.
10:49But active equity assets under management have risen by over 60%
10:53between September of last year and September of this year.
10:56And there's an increase.
10:56Obviously, the underlying has also gone up.
10:59But a sizable amount of investment has taken place.
11:01Passive has also grown tremendously.
11:03What about the products that are currently being offered, though?
11:06And there are a lot of offers in the factor-based, in the smart beta, as they call it.
11:12What do you think about that as well?
11:15So again, one thing about your first question in terms of growth of active versus passive.
11:22Remember one thing, Alex, passive products are bought, they're not sold.
11:27Generally, when you look at it from any angle, whether you look at ETFs or whether you look at,
11:32say, even the index fund structure, typically, distributors will tend to sell,
11:38I mean, products which have higher distribution commissions and passive products
11:42because of the low TERs will generally have lesser in terms for the distributor, right?
11:48And therefore, passive products are always products.
11:51And that's not only in India, it's across the globe,
11:54where passive products are bought, they're not sold.
11:58So that's the first thing.
11:59The second thing is in terms of newer products coming into the market,
12:04yes, there are, if you see the current trend, a lot of factor-based products,
12:09a lot of thematic products are coming into the market.
12:11But as I said, it's important for investors to be disciplined about their portfolios.
12:17Important to split your portfolio in a kind of core and satellite kind of an approach
12:22where core, the larger part of your portfolio,
12:25you take exposure through a plain vanilla diversified index fund or an ETF.
12:30And the satellite part of your portfolio could be invested in any of these thematics
12:35or active funds or any of these factor-based products
12:39because any of these factor-based products or thematic products,
12:43nobody can tell when these products will do well
12:47because different factors kind of move at different points of time,
12:50different thematics or different sectors move at different points of time.
12:54You get back again to the question in terms of how do I pick the right fund manager,
12:58the right sector, the right stock.
13:00And in your whole quest of doing that,
13:04you end up losing the simple pure market returns.
13:06And therefore, I would always suggest that a larger part of your portfolio
13:10should be through a plain vanilla diversified low-cost ETF or an index fund.
13:15And the smaller part of the portfolio is which you can look at
13:19to investing in any of these other alternate strategies.
13:22Point taken.
13:24And by the way, I only spoke about the growth in AUM of active
13:28because I remembered that data, I was looking at it.
13:31I'm sure that passive has also grown quite tremendously.
13:34I was looking at index funds and they've grown quite tremendously
13:37over the last several months also, Vishal.
13:39So not to detract from that at all.
13:42But the last point that I want to ask you is
13:46if we have established and you have made a strong case for it,
13:50that the core should be passive.
13:52What product is the best or should you have a combination of products?
13:56Nifty 50, of course, has been the traditionally sought out option.
14:00But as we've seen, there are certain other options that have actually done better.
14:06I think it all depends on in terms of how glued in you are with your portfolio.
14:12If you're a person who's actively managing your portfolio,
14:16then you could have a combination of a Nifty 50, a Nifty Next 50,
14:20a Mid Cap 150, right, in the ratio that you want.
14:23If you're a person who likes a, you know, a filtered,
14:26shuttered kind of a portfolio,
14:29then one could just look at maybe a more diversified portfolio,
14:33like a top 250, which has a top 250 companies in the index
14:37or a Nifty 500, which will also have then small caps in it, right?
14:41So depending on your, I think, needs and depending on how,
14:46you know, active you are managing your portfolio,
14:49or if you just want something simple, I mean, you could kind of take your pick.
14:54That's a fair point.
14:55Vishal, thanks so much for joining in and for giving us that perspective
14:59and interesting conversation to say the very least.
15:02Thanks so much for inviting me, Alex. It was a pleasure.
15:04My pleasure.