Sudan is the scene of one of the world's worst humanitarian crises, and millions have fled the civil war. The former PM tells DW that the displacement and famine are "much, much greater than Gaza and Ukraine combined."
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00:00Among the many wars around the world, the conflict in Sudan is distinguished by its
00:05level of savagery, the massacres, the ethnic cleansing and the starvation of so many of
00:10its victims.
00:12My guest in Brussels is former Prime Minister Abdallah Hamdok, who heads a coalition of
00:17political and civil society groups trying to bring peace.
00:21Trying and failing.
00:23In the last three months the fighting has intensified and so has the involvement of
00:27foreign fighters stoking the flames on all sides.
00:31What would it take to stop the bloodshed and unify this shattered country?
00:39Abdallah Hamdok, welcome to Conflict Zone.
00:43Looking at the history of your country, Sudan, it's an amazing thing.
00:47You've had, since 1956, a staggering 17 coups, along with a catalogue of civil war, decades
00:55of murder, starvation, misery.
00:59Why have you all failed to bring peace to Sudan and unite the country?
01:06Thank you very much for the opportunity to talk to you.
01:11I really appreciate this.
01:13You are absolutely right.
01:15From 1956, we failed not only to keep the country together, but also we do not have
01:25up to today a permanent constitution, has always been temporary.
01:31Out of this 68 years of national rule, post-independence, 55 years of them were under military rule.
01:44Why?
01:45I suppose we failed to get what I could call a national project that should have kept the
01:56South.
01:58I think it's a failure, if you remember.
02:03Are you ashamed of it?
02:04Absolutely.
02:05It's a failure of elites.
02:10The latest seemingly endless civil war began in 2023 between two military commanders, one
02:17from the Sudanese Armed Forces, General Abdel Fattah al-Burhan, and the leader of the paramilitary
02:24rapid support forces, General Mohamed Dagalo.
02:28You know these men personally, don't you?
02:30I do.
02:32I worked with them in what we call a partnership, an agreement that was signed in 2019.
02:46And we worked together in one government for over two years until they had a coup that
02:53toppled this arrangement.
02:56And now they deserve to spend the rest of their life in jail, don't they?
03:00I believe all those who committed these atrocities should be brought to book.
03:07What are they like?
03:09These are killers, aren't they?
03:10Of course.
03:11These are people responsible for the deaths, misery, starvation and destruction that they've
03:18wrought on your country.
03:20But actually...
03:21What are they like?
03:22Well, you see, this is what we are calling the failure of the military, which messed
03:29up the country for 55 years.
03:32This is just a continuation of that.
03:34Are they proud of what they're doing?
03:36Are they proud of the killing?
03:38I don't think any sensible human being would be proud of killing people.
03:45They don't sound as though they're sensible human beings.
03:47Well, we leave that judgment, of course, to the wider Sudanese people.
03:53But I share your view on that.
03:55It's not sensible at all.
03:58This war itself is a senseless war.
04:00What turned them into killers?
04:01Was it really about an agreement of power sharing, power between their different forces
04:08because that collapsed and they then set out to kill and destroy as many people as they
04:12could find from the opposing side?
04:14There are so many reasons behind this war, as you rightly put it in your opening remark.
04:21It's not the first one in our history.
04:24There are so many root causes of this.
04:28One attribute to historical factors, you could look into issues of the dynamics between center
04:34and periphery and even development, but also political issues linked to the domination
04:40of the army and so many other factors.
04:43But what would make it stop?
04:45What would make this war stop?
04:48I think the prime responsibility of stopping this war rests with the Sudanese people.
04:54If we are able to unite in a broad front that brings everybody together against the
05:01war, that will form the first step in stopping this war.
05:07But also, we don't live in an isolation, in an isolated island.
05:12We need the support that will be brought by the regional and international community.
05:21And what about these two generals?
05:23What would make them stop killing?
05:26I think they need to know that there are consequences for what you do.
05:33Have you told them that?
05:35I think everybody told them this.
05:37There are sanctions, there are all this.
05:42Do they enjoy killing?
05:44I don't think anybody would enjoy killing, but it looks like it's quite a sensible, a
05:50senseless thing.
05:52Last month saw a major surge in fighting in the country, hundreds killed in aerial bombings
05:58and revenge attacks and evidence that there are increasing numbers of foreign fighters,
06:04mercenaries now involved in the fighting.
06:07Which countries that are involved, which countries worry you most?
06:14You know, in today's world, Tim, you will not find a single village that is isolated
06:23from what's happening around.
06:26There are so many countries involved in this, the region, the closer region, further region
06:36and further apart, far.
06:39Well let's pick a couple.
06:40There are so many.
06:41Let's pick a couple.
06:42The United Arab Emirates has been pretty active in the region.
06:45UN inspectors say they've been running an extensive covert operation to supply the rapid
06:51support forces under the guise of supplying humanitarian assistance.
06:56They deny it, but the UN is clear.
07:00What do you know of this?
07:02There are similar accusation levied against all the countries in the region, UAE, Egypt,
07:12Saudi Arabia, Iran, Russia.
07:17And they're true?
07:18Russia, Ukraine.
07:19These are accusations and we would like, as Sudanese, we would like whoever want or whoever
07:27intervening in our situation should help us stop this war rather than fueling it.
07:34But they're doing the opposite at the moment, aren't they?
07:37All these countries that you've named.
07:38We would like them to stop this intervention and to move towards helping us resolving this.
07:48Where is the international will to stop them?
07:52To be honest with you, as Sudanese, we are very disappointed with the international response
07:58on our crisis.
08:01Today, Sudan is the largest humanitarian crisis in the world.
08:13The killing itself is put more than 150,000, which is, I think, grossly underestimated.
08:20We might not even know the number of people who were killed.
08:23We have 25 million subjected to famine and starvation.
08:29People could die with famine more than with bullets.
08:32We have more than 2 million refugees.
08:36The plight of all these people has not been addressed.
08:39This is much, much greater than Gaza or Ukraine combined.
08:45And it's about to get worse.
08:46In June, the chief prosecutor at the International Criminal Court, Karim Khan, said he feared
08:51that in Sudan, we are on the precipice of something even worse.
08:57Do you share that view?
08:59Absolutely.
09:00Absolutely.
09:01You say that, but in April, you told an interviewer you were an eternal optimist.
09:05Absolutely.
09:06How on earth do you find optimism in the situation that you've just described?
09:14Where is this optimism?
09:15I am driven with that optimism.
09:18The moment that optimism seems to exist, it's a problem.
09:2368 years of coups, as you said.
09:25Yes.
09:26The misery, the killing, the starvation.
09:29I don't see where you find that optimism.
09:31Some people might say you've lost touch with reality.
09:34No, no.
09:35I was there.
09:36I was detained and all this.
09:37I have been.
09:38I lived through this all my life.
09:42You see, I firmly believe in the fact that crises come with opportunities.
09:49If you allow yourself to just lament, oh, it's bad, it's ugly, it's this, it's that,
09:56that doesn't take you anywhere.
09:58You need to have the courage to say that this will not pull us down.
10:02As a nation, we're capable of doing great things, and we've done it.
10:07You can go on saying this, but as the Secretary General of the UN, Antonio Guterres, said
10:12last month, your people are trapped in a nightmare of violence, hunger, disease, and displacement.
10:21And you say there's optimism.
10:23No, I'm not saying, I'm not describing the situation as optimism.
10:27But you have optimism.
10:28Yes, I am saying you cannot, look, to face this crisis, and if you are just complaining
10:35forever, that will not help.
10:37But there doesn't seem to be any sense of urgency.
10:39No, there is.
10:40There is.
10:41We have been doing the same things, and the killing goes on, and nothing stops.
10:46Nothing stops.
10:47Let me tell you one thing.
10:48You know, with all these miseries, we gave the world three very important and gratifying
10:57uprisings that toppled dictators.
11:00The military dictatorship was toppled by the Sudanese in 1964.
11:05We did it again in 85, and we did it in 2019.
11:11So the Sudanese people have accumulated very strong experience of resistance.
11:19It's an accumulated process.
11:22And very strong experience of human rights violations.
11:25Yes, yes.
11:27And war crimes.
11:28And war crimes.
11:29But with all this, this did not deter us from toppling these dictators.
11:35In the past.
11:36We did it three times.
11:37In the past.
11:38Not in the past.
11:39This is only three years ago, the last one.
11:42Where did this extreme level of savagery come from?
11:46Where did it come from?
11:49Is it part of your people?
11:51Is it part of who you are?
11:53Actually, this is a paradox, because as Sudanese character, we are very accommodative.
12:00We are peace loving.
12:02We are never violent at all, as a nation.
12:08And yet ethnic cleansing is now becoming a huge feature of this civil war, isn't it?
12:15But you see, all these issues are driven by a small minority.
12:18It's not really the nature of the wider population.
12:20It doesn't matter.
12:21It impacts everybody.
12:22Yes, true.
12:23Whether it's a small minority or not.
12:24But you see, the reality is that the majority of the Sudanese are peace loving.
12:29They live together in peaceful coexistence.
12:32Actually, diversity is a sense of strength, should not be a sense of weakness.
12:39Isn't ethnic cleansing the hardest of the motives to address?
12:43Because if you're the wrong tribe, you die, don't you?
12:46Rwanda being the prime example of it in 1994.
12:49In fact, Romeo Dallaire, who led the UN mission in Rwanda during the genocide, he said last
12:54month, we fear the Sudan crisis is on the road to becoming a repeat of the 1994 Rwanda
13:01genocide.
13:02And he should know, he should know, shouldn't he?
13:05I know, but I hope not we reach that point.
13:08What we are working tirelessly is to avoid that fate.
13:14And I think with the resolve and the determination of our people, our Sudanese people, and the
13:21support of our friends and peace loving people in the world, we will be able to avoid this.
13:28Let's talk about the work you're doing.
13:29You lead a coalition of democratic forces called Takadum, or progress.
13:35You try to organize peace talks, but negotiations have gone nowhere.
13:39In January, you signed a deal with the rapid support forces, including a ceasefire, but
13:44it was rejected by Sudanese politicians.
13:47You're talking to parties that have continually broken their word.
13:51And I'm wondering, what's the point of talking to people like that?
13:56You can't trust them from one day to the next, can you?
13:59Takadum, which is the acronym of the coordination of civilian democratic forces, is the largest
14:08alliance of Sudanese groups, which has brought together political parties, trade unions and
14:15professionals, civil society, resistance committees, some of the armed groups and all that.
14:21It's the biggest group.
14:22We had a very impressive founding convention in Addis Ababa in end of May, June this year,
14:32which we were pleasantly-
14:33But you haven't achieved anything approaching your goal, which is peace.
14:38You're nowhere near.
14:40I don't think that is-
14:42This group was founded merely four months ago.
14:46You cannot expect it to undo such a huge legacy.
14:50But we put forward a very sound vision, political vision, to address this.
14:59If you may allow me, I can just quickly outline the major element of it.
15:04To start with, we do not believe there is a military solution to this crisis.
15:09We have to go through a political process.
15:12But that's obvious, isn't it?
15:13There cannot be a military-
15:14It's obvious.
15:15It is obvious.
15:16But because there are people who think it's not.
15:18There are people who think they can win this war, which is totally nonsense.
15:24We think number one priority today in this vision is addressing the humanitarian crisis
15:32and address the protection of civilians as number one priority.
15:37Mr. Hamdok, in August, there were American-led peace talks that kicked off in Geneva,
15:43but Sudan's military didn't even send negotiators there, so they went nowhere.
15:48You can't even get a ceasefire.
15:49Isn't your priority to get a ceasefire and then talk
15:53when the guns have gone silent?
15:56Sure.
15:56Wouldn't that be the priority?
15:58It is.
15:58Give somebody some respite from all this.
16:00That is why we're saying in our vision number one priority is that.
16:06And you know, it's not only Alps in Geneva.
16:10There were a number of attempts before that.
16:12It was Jeddah, which started very well but got stalled quickly.
16:17Then there is Manama, which was much better, produced a very good document,
16:21shot down by the military.
16:23And then there is Alps, which the military did not attempt.
16:26How can it be a very good document when people go on dying?
16:29It doesn't matter whether it's a good document or not, does it?
16:32Unless you produce results and the results aren't coming, are they?
16:36That is true, but results cannot drop from there.
16:40Results have to be worked through negotiations, through discussion.
16:43You agree on a document, you put it to the test and all that.
16:48It has to be through negotiations.
16:51One of the things you said a moment ago, you talked about overthrowing Omar al-Bashir,
16:57who was president for three decades, ousted in 2019.
17:00He was indicted by the ICC twice on some of the most serious charges,
17:05including crimes against humanity.
17:08When you were prime minister, you announced September 4th, 2021,
17:13that the Sudanese Council of Ministers had agreed to extradite al-Bashir to The Hague.
17:20Why didn't that happen? It still hasn't happened.
17:23Do you recall that date? It's September 2021.
17:28The coup took place October 21, one month after that.
17:33One month? But why in that month didn't you send him to The Hague?
17:37It's not that simple.
17:40Since day one we came, we had opened very fruitful cooperation with the ICC.
17:48They opened an office, we started working, they produced three options for the trials,
17:54whether at home or in the region or in the ICC, and we were engaging with them.
18:01There was a coup, as you said, but in November you were back again.
18:06You returned again to the prime minister's office.
18:08Why didn't you send al-Bashir to The Hague then?
18:11I stayed one month and resigned.
18:14And in that month we were trying to put a break on the coup
18:19and undo so many decisions that were taken in the period of one month when I was in detention.
18:28But wouldn't it have been a huge symbolic achievement to send him to The Hague?
18:32I retained to that office as a prime minister.
18:35There was no government, there was no institutions, there was nothing.
18:39I was trying to put a break on that and retain to the transition,
18:46meaning bringing back institutions, doing all these things that were abolished by the coup.
18:52The effect of getting rid of al-Bashir was extraordinary.
18:57The crowds were euphoric around the country, suddenly art flourished,
19:01people were talking about politics, the West was offering to forgive your debts, even that.
19:09And yet you couldn't hang on to this euphoria. Why not? It didn't last. Why?
19:16The reason is, you know, the toppling of the dictatorship happened because we all united.
19:26We had a very strong united front and achieved that.
19:30But from the second day, we had a lot of, you could call it, divisions.
19:37People went back behind their flags and all this.
19:41And we had this, this is a legacy of 30 years.
19:45But this was your best chance in 30 years.
19:47Look, yes, it was our best chance after 30 years.
19:52We did a lot in two years on the economic front.
19:56We achieved so many issues on the political front,
20:02on the removal of Sudan from the state of sponsored terrorism, addressing so many issues.
20:12You cannot expect a government that has been just transplanted as a cabinet
20:18to undo in two years a legacy of 30 years.
20:23This is daunting. It's a nightmare.
20:26Do you wish you had done things differently when you look back?
20:32No, I leave that to the...
20:34You have no regrets?
20:35No, absolutely. My conscience is very clear.
20:38Because we worked and those who work and mop their hands are the people who make mistakes,
20:45who achieve some, could not achieve some.
20:49But there are reasons behind all this.
20:51History will judge that.
20:53You continue pressing for a ceasefire, for a formula that will bring an end to all the carnage.
20:59But you have plenty of enemies of your own in Sudan.
21:03The current government wants to put you on trial on a number of charges,
21:07including incitement to war against the state,
21:10undermining the constitutional order, crimes against humanity.
21:15You've denied all these accusations, but how can you be seen by all sides as an observer,
21:22as an impartial broker, when you have these charges hanging over you?
21:30This is a misconception. We are not brokers, we are not mediators.
21:35We are in the thick of it.
21:37We are totally aligned with the aspiration of our people.
21:41So don't think about us as people there mediating between two parts. No.
21:46And you can't do that with these charges hanging over you?
21:49This is false. What government are you talking about?
21:52There's no government.
21:53This is a government suspended by the African Union.
21:57This you can call it de facto government,
21:59because the international community wanted to deal with somebody there.
22:02But there's no government.
22:03The African Union hasn't been a lot of help in this.
22:06You mentioned that.
22:06No, they are. They are doing.
22:08Why? Just suspended?
22:10What?
22:10They just suspended their cooperation with the government.
22:13Not suspension of cooperation.
22:15They suspended the membership of the Sudan government
22:19because they have an instrument that any unconstitutional takeover of power,
22:24they cannot tolerate it.
22:25And they suspended Sudan from 21.
22:28But they also, when the war broke,
22:30they had they established a high level panel on Sudan,
22:34led by a very able former foreign minister of Ghana.
22:39They have established a committee of five presidents
22:41led by President Museveni of Uganda.
22:46We expect them to do more.
22:48We expect them to help us,
22:49particularly on issues relating to the protection of civilians.
22:53And we're engaging them on this.
22:55We know their deficiencies and all that,
22:57but I think it is our premier continental body
23:00and we are happy to work with them in addressing this.
23:04Well, they haven't had a lot more success
23:05in what they've set out to do than you have.
23:07I mean, they promised that the guns would fall silent in Africa by 2025, didn't they?
23:13It's not going to happen, is it?
23:15It's an aspiration goal.
23:16It can be achieved in 2025, 2030.
23:18There's no point when you keep missing these deadlines.
23:21You set the deadlines, you keep missing them.
23:23You know...
23:24It doesn't help their credibility, does it?
23:26One of the very distinguished freedom fighters in South Africa
23:31was asked in 1974 when this apartheid would fall.
23:35He said in 10 years.
23:36It went to 20 years.
23:38These are aspiration goals.
23:40We strive to reach them.
23:41We might not reach them in the set time,
23:46but the day will come to reach them
23:48with the resolve and determination of everybody.
23:52And new ideas.
23:54You need new ideas, don't you?
23:57Because everything you've tried so far hasn't worked.
24:01Nothing's worked.
24:02What we are outlining, we haven't tried.
24:04We have this vision of three parts.
24:09Protection of civilians, ceasefire
24:11and political process with a mechanism,
24:13which we call it Roundtable Conference,
24:16which would expect to bring together
24:19all kinds of affiliation, political parties.
24:23And we're working on that.
24:24And we are actually moving in the right direction.
24:28Teghaddum is reaching out to many others
24:30who are not inside Teghaddum.
24:31And I think we are not thinking about this as an event.
24:36It's a process.
24:37It will take time.
24:39Of course, there is a high sense of urgency
24:41because people are dying, but we will reach that.
24:46Very briefly, you can't go back to Sudan at the moment.
24:50Do you think there'll come a day when you can?
24:51Are you worried about your safety, even being outside?
24:55No, of course.
24:56They are talking all the time about
24:57not only the accusations,
24:59they are calling openly by killing myself,
25:05our colleagues in Teghaddum and all that.
25:09We are not different from what is happening
25:11to the Sudanese people inside the country.
25:14Abdullah Hamdok, thank you very much
25:16for being on Conference.
25:17You are most welcome.