The Honorable Boris Johnson, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom (2019-2022), U.K. Foreign Secretary (2016-2018) and Mayor of London (2008-2016)
In conversation with: Geoff Colvin, Fortune
In conversation with: Geoff Colvin, Fortune
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TechTranscript
00:00We have no shortage of things to talk about, so let's start with the news, namely the election
00:07here just six days ago.
00:09Yes, I was absolutely refusing to comment about it when I was here six days ago.
00:14Yeah.
00:15But, yeah.
00:16Meaning you didn't know the outcome at that point?
00:19No, I thought it would be wrong of me to try to offer an opinion when it was a matter for the great people of the United States of America.
00:26Right.
00:27And, you know, we have a bad history in our country of recommending people to vote in U.S. elections.
00:33They don't take it well.
00:35Well, I suppose that's true.
00:38Now, the other thing in the news is the publication of your new book.
00:42Yes.
00:43God, that's kind of you to mention that.
00:44Very foolishly.
00:45I didn't bring a copy.
00:46I don't know what's got into me.
00:48It's unbelievable.
00:49It's called Unleashed, and it's so unleashed it's escaped my possession.
00:55Available at all good bookshops in New York.
00:58Yes, it is.
00:59And online, Amazon.
01:00Yes, and makes a lovely gift also.
01:02Oh, superb.
01:03Yes.
01:04In the book, you make a case in favor of Donald Trump.
01:10Well, look, I mean, this is why I was reluctant to get it to say very much.
01:16This is a very crucial time for me because my life hangs by a thread, my credibility,
01:23because I have been one of the very, very few in U.K. and, indeed, European politics
01:30who's been willing in the last year or so more to say even the faintest bat squeak of approval
01:38of Donald Trump in anything that he did.
01:41And I'm now watching and waiting to see whether my optimism is going to be justified.
01:49Right.
01:50And so it's a very nerve-wracking moment.
01:52But I haven't seen anything to discourage me so far.
01:56Well, what was the essence of your argument, in fact?
01:58So the essence of my argument was when I was Foreign Secretary of the U.K.
02:02and when I was Prime Minister, I had a lot of dealings with President Trump,
02:06and I saw how he operated.
02:09And you know what?
02:10I just didn't agree with the stereotype of some of my left-liberal friends,
02:18whether it was in the BBC or the other great organs of opinion in the U.K.
02:24I don't know whether you ever watched Channel 4 News in our country,
02:28but they all completely freaked out on Tuesday night.
02:33And I am more optimistic.
02:37I think that President Trump, when he was in office,
02:41did some things that were tough and decisive on the foreign policy side
02:46that I think promoted stability, actually.
02:51And everybody talks about him being unpredictable and so on and so forth.
02:55When I look at what actually happened in the four years 2016 to 2020,
03:01and I was Foreign Secretary and then Prime Minister for a lot of that period,
03:09on a lot of key files, he was substantially tougher than his Democrat predecessors
03:17and promoted outcomes that, in my view, were more conducive to calm and order,
03:22such as with the Syrians.
03:26Bashar al-Assad put chemical weapons on his own people under the previous administration,
03:32and we did nothing in the U.K.
03:34In 2013, in 2018, Trump bombed Assad.
03:40Similarly with Iran, he was tough there.
03:43And the reason I'm very tense now is because of Ukraine.
03:49And clearly the President listens to a lot of different voices.
03:55And I don't know where our audience tonight is,
03:59or what you guys all think,
04:02but I am absolutely convinced that it would be a disaster for the world
04:06if Ukraine were to go down.
04:09And I think there is a genuine risk that a deal will be done
04:12that is not in the interest of freedom and democracy.
04:17And I nonetheless cling to my memory of Trump when he was in office,
04:25when actually he was pretty tough on Putin.
04:28He was.
04:30He gave the Ukrainians the javelin, shoulder-launched anti-tank weapons,
04:34broke the taboo on giving such lethal weaponry to Ukraine,
04:40paved the way for lots of other countries to do the same,
04:44and helped the Ukrainians pretty decisively in that battle for Kiev, number one.
04:50Number two, when we had a big problem in the U.K.
04:54when several members of the public were poisoned with Novichok
04:59in a town called Salisbury,
05:02Donald Trump really surprised on the upside
05:05by expelling 60 Russian spies
05:08when we weren't expecting anything like that number.
05:11So look, all I'm saying is, based on what he did in the past,
05:16I hope that he will be robust when it comes to Putin and Ukraine.
05:23And I think the scope, by the way, sorry to interrupt your question,
05:26but I think there's a real chance that he has a political opportunity
05:33to be robust now
05:37because we're in this crazy situation
05:40in which the Ukrainians continue to be utterly heroic.
05:44You know, they've made this incursion in the Kursk region.
05:47They're fighting like crazy in Donetsk area.
05:52But we're not giving them the permissions they need
05:56actually to use the weapons that we've supplied.
06:00So in the U.K. case, it's the Storm Shadow cruise missiles
06:03that the U.S. have given the ATAKMS long-range missiles.
06:09And yet we're not allowing them to send those missiles into Russian territory
06:15where they could actually hit the bases
06:17from which Putin is sending the planes
06:21that are launching the glide bombs
06:23that are doing such appalling damage to Ukrainian positions.
06:26And look, I'm just putting it out there.
06:28If anybody's in touch with the president-elect,
06:31here is a golden opportunity
06:34to show that the previous administration has been weak
06:38because it has not given the Ukrainians the permissions they need.
06:41And I think that's the first thing we should do.
06:43Give them, give the Ukrainians the ability to use ATAKMS,
06:47use Storm Shadow, and defend themselves properly
06:51against Russian attack.
06:53Now, as you know, he said during the campaign
06:56that he could end the war there in 24 hours.
07:01He didn't say how he would do it.
07:03But doesn't it seem that any kind of resolution
07:06that is taken in 24 hours
07:09is probably not going to be very good for Ukraine?
07:13Well, look, I mean, one of the things I remember
07:16and enjoyed very much participating in from a distance
07:20was the former president's attempts to do a deal
07:23with North Korea, Kim Jong-un.
07:26We all loyally, you know, tried to support that process,
07:29which, again, was going to be the greatest deal.
07:31It was going to be fantastic.
07:33But it proved to be slightly more tricky
07:36to do at the kind of pace that President Trump wanted.
07:41So, you know, when he says he's going to do it in 24 hours,
07:44I don't think we should necessarily take that literally.
07:47But I think that he intends to do a deal.
07:51And, by the way, I think that's the right attitude.
07:54I think the world has had enough of this war.
07:56It's a terrible war.
07:58It needs to end and it can be fixed.
08:00I think that...
08:02And this is where I really hope that he and his associates
08:06or his advisers would share this analysis.
08:09I think it's going to be best fixed if America is strong.
08:13And the point about the Trump presidency, 2016 to 2020,
08:17the reason why I think it was more successful than some others
08:20is I think that America appeared strong in that period.
08:25And I think giving the permissions on the weapons
08:29would be one thing.
08:31I think that allowing the Ukrainians
08:34to use the frozen Russian assets,
08:37$250 billion, $350 billion worth of assets there are,
08:40a lot of it in Belgium for some reason,
08:43that would be a very good thing.
08:45The US could do that.
08:47Trump could get behind that.
08:49And there's a lot of other things he could do
08:53that would project strength.
08:55Yep. So I want to come back to that for just a second,
08:57but I want to ask you a couple of other things first.
09:01Regardless of how you felt about him,
09:04did you think he'd win?
09:07That's a very good question.
09:09And I have hands up in this audience
09:11who thought going into the last week
09:13that President Trump was definitely nailed on to the victory.
09:17I see my old friend Connor Burns up there
09:19who thought he was going to win.
09:21But he's a British conservative former minister,
09:24so he doesn't really...
09:26Who else?
09:27There were a few.
09:28There were a few.
09:29Hands up who thought that Kamala was going to do it.
09:33So interesting.
09:34Wasn't that a wonderful thing?
09:36Nobody knew.
09:38Not even the brilliant brains assembled here.
09:42With all your uncanny ability to peer into the future
09:45and see market trends and know where...
09:47You did not know.
09:49And that's just a wonderful thing
09:52because there are plenty of countries
09:54called democracies in the world
09:56where they have things called elections
09:58where they sure as hell do know who's going to be elected.
10:01But here in this amazing country,
10:03nobody really knew.
10:05And so I think a week out,
10:07when he was driving the garbage truck...
10:09Honestly, when he was driving the garbage truck,
10:11I thought he was absolutely cruising to victory.
10:14I thought that was fantastic.
10:17I thought he was unstoppable.
10:20But then, mysteriously, it all kind of went...
10:22It lost momentum.
10:23I don't know whether you agree,
10:24but it seemed to go a bit moldy.
10:26And so I was...
10:28On the day, I couldn't have told you.
10:30I couldn't have told you.
10:31As you mentioned, your time as prime minister
10:34and his time as president
10:35overlapped for about 18 months, I think.
10:38So you interacted with him.
10:40Yes.
10:41And I'm just curious,
10:43how did he strike you personally?
10:45He never struck me.
10:47I can assure you.
10:50He was entirely peaceful.
10:53And good-natured.
10:56And, you know, this is a terrible thing,
10:59but maybe it's some defect in my character,
11:02but I find it very hard to dislike people
11:04who are very warm and friendly towards me, right?
11:07I just...
11:08He, like so many Americans,
11:12in my experience,
11:14he was the soul of politeness and kindness.
11:17There you go.
11:18Shoot me.
11:19You know, that was just my impression.
11:21And on the economic front,
11:27you know, I think he genuinely offers
11:29some interesting ideas.
11:31And, you know, people worry about tariffs
11:34and what he might do on China
11:36and all the rest of it.
11:37Well, you know, again, we've been here before.
11:39And he ended up doing a free trade deal with China
11:42as far as I can remember.
11:43Didn't he?
11:45I think the tariffs are still in place,
11:48at least some of them.
11:49Sure.
11:50In fact, I know they are, yeah.
11:51Sure.
11:52But, you know, on the other hand,
11:53there's no question that China does produce
11:56a lot of stuff that substantially undercuts,
11:58that is produced, that is sold at below cost
12:02into export markets.
12:04And, you know, you've got to take
12:05countervailing measures where that's, you know,
12:08that's fair enough.
12:10I mean, it has appeared in many ways
12:14that Trump has a good relationship
12:17with Vladimir Putin.
12:21Such a good relationship that many people
12:23are kind of curious about
12:25what kind of relationship it is.
12:26Yes.
12:27What do you think it is?
12:28I don't know.
12:29I don't know.
12:31Look, I mean, you know, I get back
12:32to what I said at the beginning.
12:33This is a very nervous moment
12:35because, you know, now we're going to see.
12:37I don't think, in truth,
12:39that I think there is a sort of faction
12:42in the Republican Party
12:44that has a strange kind of, you know,
12:46weird sort of homoerotic fascination for Putin,
12:50which I personally don't share.
12:52You know, there's some of these people
12:57who think he's an all-round kind of stand-up guy
12:59and they love his manly Christianity
13:01and all this stuff.
13:02It's complete nonsense.
13:03It's complete nonsense.
13:04He's a tyrant and a kleptocrat
13:06and a murderer
13:07and a very, very dangerous and bad man.
13:10So I don't understand this stuff in the Republican Party.
13:13But there's no question
13:14that some of those people
13:16are in the 47th president's ear
13:20and they're whispering a lot of absolute nonsense to him,
13:24as is Viktor Orban.
13:26And there's a lot of dangerous, poisonous,
13:28pernicious talk at the moment.
13:30And I am hoping and hoping and hoping
13:33that that argument will not succeed.
13:35And I'm hoping that the argument
13:37for democracy and freedom will succeed.
13:40And I'm basing my optimism on what I saw last time around.
13:45Yeah.
13:46I gather that Vladimir Putin called you
13:48shortly before the invasion of Ukraine.
13:50Is that correct?
13:52Uh, yeah.
13:53I think we placed the call to him, to be honest.
13:55Oh, is that? Okay.
13:56We had two calls.
13:57But, yes.
14:00And it was a rather bizarre conversation
14:05in which he, you know, he just told lie after lie.
14:08Yeah.
14:09He said he wasn't going to invade.
14:11You know, the idea hadn't crossed his mind.
14:14I said, so what are these 118 battalion tactical groups
14:18doing revving up on the border with Ukraine?
14:21What's that all about?
14:22And he said, well, you know, Russia had to protect itself
14:25and there was a risk that Ukraine would join NATO.
14:28That was never true.
14:30Ladies and gentlemen, that was never true.
14:33And this is one of the lies that you hear,
14:36that there was some secret agenda
14:38to get Ukraine into NATO in the next few years.
14:42Yes, various threadbare promises
14:46had been made to Ukraine about NATO.
14:50But I can tell you categorically
14:52there was not a snowball's chance in Hades
14:56of NATO powers honouring those promises.
14:59The French would not have done it.
15:01The Germans would not have done it.
15:03The Americans would not have got Ukraine into NATO
15:07in the next 10, next 20 years.
15:09Absolutely no way.
15:11But now it's a different question.
15:15And, you know, now,
15:18Putin having done the things that he's done
15:21and having murdered hundreds of thousands
15:23of innocent Ukrainian civilians,
15:25tortured people, castrated the men,
15:27taken children off to be re-educated in captivity.
15:31I mean, he's done appalling things.
15:34Now there is no long-term solution
15:39to the problem of Ukraine
15:41and the fundamental ambiguity about Ukraine's status,
15:45which has been the basic problem.
15:47There is no long-term solution except NATO membership
15:52or a NATO Article 5 security guarantee
15:55for those parts of Ukraine that are stable
15:58and whose borders are secure.
16:00There's no other solution.
16:02Otherwise the Russians, otherwise Putin,
16:04will just keep coming.
16:06And that will be a disaster for the West.
16:09It will be a disaster for America.
16:11Yeah, the mention of NATO brings us back to Trump also,
16:15because as president he made some kind of threats
16:19of the US actually withdrawing.
16:21No. No, Jeff, no, no, no, no, no.
16:23I was in their room. No.
16:25I know what you're talking about.
16:27This was at the NATO summit in, I think, 2018.
16:29Yes.
16:30And I happened to be sitting behind him
16:32when he gave this tremendous extemporised speech.
16:35Yes.
16:36And I saw him, you know, he had his notes
16:38from whatever it was, the State Department,
16:41and he just threw them aside.
16:43And he gave this long harangue
16:46of the Euro-weenie leaders and, you know, told them...
16:52And you saw them all...
16:54You saw Angela Merkel and Emmanuel Macron
16:57looking absolutely, you know, their eyes,
17:00their jaws dropping as he, you know...
17:03But basically, if you listened actually to what he was saying,
17:06it was long-standing US government policy.
17:10And, by the way, it was long-standing UK government policy.
17:14What he was saying was that if we're going to be serious
17:17about the North Atlantic Alliance, which we should be,
17:20then the Europeans have to pay more.
17:22Right.
17:23And they should, and they can.
17:25And it's not...
17:26You know, one thing I feel very strongly is,
17:28we in Europe kind of...
17:31We slightly...
17:34We look at the American economic model,
17:36and we say, oh, it's brutal, you know,
17:38capitalism, red in tooth and claw.
17:40You know, look at their healthcare system and all the rest of it.
17:43They allow such huge disparities between rich and poor.
17:46But we're only too happy
17:48to use American taxpayer dollars to keep us safe.
17:52And I think the Americans have a perfectly good case
17:55to say that there needs to be proper burden sharing.
17:58And that was literally all Trump was saying.
18:00He wasn't saying he was going to pull out of NATO.
18:02OK, and during the campaign this time around,
18:05he did say that...
18:07This was hypothetical, but he did say
18:10that he would not come to the defence
18:14of a NATO member under attack by Russia
18:19if that country had not spent the...
18:232.5%.
18:25..the 2.5% of GDP on defence.
18:28Now, do you think he really meant it?
18:31I think that that was a, you know,
18:35kind of negotiating technique, right?
18:38I don't... I do not believe...
18:40I mean, I can only go back to what I saw
18:42when I was Foreign Secretary and Prime Minister
18:44and how he actually dealt with real, live situations.
18:47And he was very robust with Russia.
18:49He was very robust with the enemies of the West.
18:52I think if a country, a NATO country,
18:55genuinely faced an attack that invoked Article 5,
18:58I'm sure that the United States, under Donald Trump, would be there.
19:01But he's making a very good point.
19:04Right.
19:06He's making a very good point.
19:08He's making a very good point.
19:10He's making a very good point.
19:12He's making a very good point.
19:14He's making a very good point.
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22:22I don't think it's sensible.
22:24I don't think it's going to happen.
22:26Do you think it's sensible?
22:28Do you think it's really sensible
22:30to try and make everything in the U.S.
22:32that is currently made in China?
22:34Never happen.
22:36Would that be good for inflation?
22:38Would it?
22:40No.
22:42Bad idea.
22:44Not what Adam Smith says.
22:46Not what David Ricardo says.
22:48Right.
22:50Why have you?
22:52We could go further down that road.
22:54But there are other things
22:56that we ought to talk about also.
22:58One, people still ask about Brexit.
23:00One, people still ask about Brexit.
23:02And the latest poll I saw
23:04said that over half the people
23:06of the U.K. regret Brexit.
23:08Right?
23:10And you were its champion.
23:12That's what they said before Brexit.
23:14Why are they wrong?
23:16That's what they said before Brexit.
23:18And then the people of Britain voted for Brexit
23:20in the greatest numbers
23:22that have ever voted for any proposition
23:24in the history of our democracy.
23:2617.4 million people voted to leave the EU
23:28because basically
23:30they wanted to take back
23:32control of their own country.
23:34And one of the great...
23:36There are many reasons
23:38for loving the United States of America.
23:40But one of the most interesting
23:42is that for all the idealism
23:44of this great country,
23:46Americans do not share,
23:48do not adulterate your sovereignty,
23:50your democracy
23:52with any other international institution.
23:54You do not allow any other court
23:56to have any say
23:58on the doings of the United States.
24:00You don't submit to the jurisdiction
24:02of the International Criminal Court,
24:04to the U.N. Convention on the Law of the Sea.
24:06You haven't even signed up
24:08to the U.N. Convention on the Rights of the Child
24:10in the United States.
24:12I don't know why, but you don't.
24:14And that is basically
24:16because you believe in democracy.
24:18And you believe in the fundamental
24:20principle that if someone
24:22is set in authority over you,
24:24there should be some means by which
24:26they can be ultimately removed from office
24:28by someone that you elect.
24:30Right?
24:32And that's what...
24:34And unfortunately in the EU,
24:36for all its beauties and virtues,
24:38that fundamental principle
24:40is being slowly destroyed.
24:42And that's not right for the U.K.
24:44It may be right for other countries,
24:46it's not right for the U.K.
24:48And our people, the U.K.,
24:50they wanted to control their own borders,
24:52they wanted to control their own laws,
24:54and they wanted to control their own currency.
24:56By the way, anybody who thinks the U.K.
24:58is going to rejoin the EU ever,
25:00you've got to imagine that you could
25:02persuade the British people
25:04to spend £20 billion a year
25:06for the privilege of giving up
25:08control of all those things.
25:10Including the pound sterling.
25:12Not going to happen.
25:14You were a climate denier.
25:16You are not anymore.
25:18What changed your mind?
25:20Well, it took a lot...
25:22Is anybody else in this position?
25:28I doubt...
25:30What I doubted was that...
25:32I thought that anthropogenic climate change
25:34might well be true.
25:36What I doubted was that we could do
25:38it in real time.
25:40And...
25:42When I got into Number 10,
25:44I mean, I had a
25:46conversion on the way
25:48when I was Mayor of London,
25:50and we did a lot of stuff to clean the air
25:52and to reduce
25:54emissions generally.
25:56And we had a very thorough-going
25:58environmental program.
26:00But I've got to admit to you, I was always a bit hesitant
26:02about the big science of climate change.
26:04I'm not a scientist.
26:06It's been very warm, it's been very cold.
26:08You know all the stuff.
26:10But then when I got in, I had the scientists in.
26:12And they were very fierce
26:14in the way that they can be.
26:16And...
26:18Look, I mean, you know,
26:20they made the argument.
26:22There are 410 parts of CO2,
26:24429 parts of CO2
26:26per million in the atmosphere.
26:28It's turning itself into
26:30a kind of tea cozy.
26:32It's swaddling the planet.
26:34I don't need to explain all this to you.
26:36The sunlight goes in, then it can't get out.
26:38And it's getting hotter and hotter.
26:40And by the way, it's jolly warm in New York
26:42in November.
26:44I'm just saying, isn't it?
26:46What's happening?
26:48And you've got bushfires in New Jersey.
26:50I don't remember those lines.
26:52Isn't it normal to have bushfires in New Jersey?
26:54Look, I'm just putting it out there.
26:56I think there's
26:58a case...
27:00Look, my line on climate change,
27:02Blaise Pascal, the famous French philosopher,
27:04took a gamble, if you remember,
27:06a wager on the existence of God.
27:08He said, if I believe in God
27:10and he turns out not to exist,
27:12but I do all the right things,
27:14then I've lost nothing, really,
27:16because I've cultivated my soul.
27:18If it turns out
27:20that he does exist and I don't believe him,
27:22then I'm damned to eternity.
27:24And if...
27:26What's the third option?
27:28And if I believe him and he does exist,
27:30then I go to heaven.
27:32And that's my argument with climate change.
27:34If we're wrong,
27:36if we're wrong
27:38and climate change isn't really
27:40as big a problem as everybody says,
27:42then actually, what are we really doing?
27:44Thanks to the visionary Elon Musk
27:46and others, we're investing
27:48in fantastic green technology,
27:50which I think is going to drive lots and lots of green jobs
27:52and clean up pollution.
27:54It's fundamentally a good thing.
27:56I can see a strong techno-capitalist
27:58defence for the whole thing.
28:00If we're wrong,
28:02if we're right that it exists
28:04and we do nothing,
28:06then, you know,
28:08bushfires in New Jersey will turn into
28:10blazing infernos
28:12and, you know, a nightmare.
28:14And
28:16if we're right about it
28:18and we're doing the right thing, then fine, we're blessed.
28:20We'll fix it. And I sort of think
28:22that might be
28:24what's going to happen.
28:26It's possible that humanity can fix this thing.
28:28And David Attenborough,
28:30who I kind of respect
28:32more than all these other people,
28:34the BBC naturalist,
28:36that was what he thought.
28:38He thought we'd fix it.
28:40It could be fixed.
28:42A completely different topic,
28:44but I suspect many people here don't know
28:46that you were born
28:48here in New York City.
28:50I was. It was a very expensive decision.
28:52I wanted
28:54to be close to my mother at the time,
28:56as they say.
29:00They were students in New York.
29:02My father was studying agricultural economics
29:04at Columbia University for some reason.
29:06And I arrived.
29:08And I remained a United States citizen
29:10until I was
29:12mayor of London.
29:14I was in my, I don't know, my mid-40s.
29:16I can't remember how old I was.
29:18And then your brilliant
29:20is it Inland Revenue Service?
29:22Internal Revenue Service.
29:24Internal Revenue Service.
29:26Your Internal Revenue Service
29:28was told
29:30by my pathetic bank,
29:32Barclays.
29:34Any representatives of Barclays here?
29:36Cowering,
29:38craven sucker-uppers
29:40to the United States.
29:42They told the United States
29:44authorities that I had been born in New York.
29:46And therefore, upon the sale
29:48of my primary residence
29:50in Furlong Road, Islington,
29:52I was liable for capital gains tax
29:54payable to the United States.
29:56Even though I hadn't lived in America
29:58since I was five years old.
30:00And they said that if I didn't pay it,
30:02then Navy SEALs would come through the window.
30:06And I was absolutely furious.
30:08And I tried
30:10to make a big thing.
30:12I tried to make a big political thing.
30:14Make myself a martyr.
30:16Absolutely
30:18nobody sympathized with me in Britain
30:20or in America.
30:22And in the end, I just coughed up.
30:24I coughed up.
30:26I paid.
30:28My tax went to
30:30one of the amazingly good projects
30:32that your federal government spends its money on.
30:36I then decided I couldn't take it.
30:38I then thought, this is crazy.
30:40They're going to get me for more and more stuff.
30:42With a real, real sense
30:44of misery.
30:46Because I genuinely, although I was
30:48Prime Minister of the UK,
30:50I love the United States and think
30:52it's a fantastic country.
30:54But I thought I could no longer be a dual national.
30:56So I went to the
30:58embassy in Grosvenor Square
31:00and I held up my hand and I'm afraid
31:02I renounced the US.
31:04I had to.
31:06Because, like the guy in the Bible,
31:08I went on my way sorrowing
31:10for I had great possessions
31:12and everything I could do.
31:14But I could reclaim it.
31:16I could reclaim it
31:18if I can prove
31:20to the satisfaction of the
31:22US
31:24department.
31:26The IRS.
31:28Somebody else, I think.
31:30But I had to prove that I was of unsound mind.
31:34Which I think should be readily demonstrable.
31:36You would suppose.
31:40We've got to wrap up, but there's one more thing
31:42I want to ask you.
31:44In your new book,
31:46Unleashed,
31:48many people have wondered about the epigraph
31:50at the front,
31:52at the beginning of that book.
31:54The epigraph is
31:56Hasta la vista, baby.
31:58That's what it says.
32:02What does that mean?
32:04Well, I suppose
32:06it's taken to mean that
32:08like General MacArthur or whatever,
32:10I could envisage some return
32:12politically.
32:14But as Conor was there
32:16right at the beginning,
32:18I think there were particular
32:20circumstances when I was useful
32:22to my party in
32:242008.
32:26They'd literally run out of
32:28all, they'd exhausted all alternatives
32:30to be the Conservative candidate,
32:32and they came to me.
32:34Then in 2019, they'd more or less
32:36run out of ideas to be
32:38Prime Minister, to get
32:40Brexit done, and they came to me.
32:42So I did both things.
32:46At the moment,
32:48it's all in Unleashed.
32:50Read Unleashed.
32:52You'll find
32:56your appetite on this question will be
32:58glutted by Unleashed.
33:00And everything else, by the way.
33:02I don't think we've done justice
33:04to Ukraine. Please, please,
33:06United States, stay solid on
33:08Ukraine.
33:10If you come away with anything
33:12from this all-too-brief
33:14conversation, it's that
33:16the United States is still the arsenal of
33:18democracy. The world
33:20depends on you. I know it's a pain in the neck,
33:22and I know that you pay too much, and the Europeans
33:24should pay more. But
33:26in the end,
33:28it would be a total catastrophe
33:30if Putin is allowed
33:32to claim a victory in Ukraine.
33:34And it would be a financial catastrophe
33:36for the United States, because you'd
33:38have to keep paying for the
33:40security, not just in the Euro-Atlantic
33:42area, the threats to the Baltic states,
33:44everywhere else, but also
33:46the knock-on effects
33:48in South China Seas
33:50and elsewhere. Because if
33:52Putin wins, it legitimates
33:54aggression by
33:56nuclear powers against weaker
33:58neighbors or by anybody who wants
34:00to take a punt on an act of
34:02violence and think that they can get
34:04away with it. And so
34:06please, please, please. And that is
34:08a great note on which
34:10to stop. Boris, thank
34:12you so very, very much. Thank you very much. Thank you.
34:14Thank you. Thank you.
34:16Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.