#PakistanEconomy #IMFDeal #PakistanCrisis #KHABAR #MohammadMalick #PMShehbazSharif #AsimMunir
(Current Affairs)
Host:
- Muhammad Malick
Guests:
- Miftah Ismail
- Shahbaz Rana
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(Current Affairs)
Host:
- Muhammad Malick
Guests:
- Miftah Ismail
- Shahbaz Rana
Follow the ARY News channel on WhatsApp: https://bit.ly/46e5HzY
Subscribe to our channel and press the bell icon for latest news updates: http://bit.ly/3e0SwKP
ARY News is a leading Pakistani news channel that promises to bring you factual and timely international stories and stories about Pakistan, sports, entertainment, and business, amid others.
Official Facebook: https://www.fb.com/arynewsasia
Official Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/arynewsofficial
Official Instagram: https://instagram.com/arynewstv
Website: https://arynews.tv
Watch ARY NEWS LIVE: http://live.arynews.tv
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NewsTranscript
00:00Assalam-o-Alaikum, you are watching Khabar Lahariya, I am Muhammad Malik.
00:28First of all, Imran Khan's call on November 24th is obviously dominating the political news.
00:34And now news of all kinds of means have also started.
00:37Some channels, some publications are saying that Bushra Bibi has directly been involved in politics.
00:44She called the MPs of Punjab and also held a meeting.
00:48Then when Aleema Khan Sahiba came and made an announcement,
00:53then there are a lot of people on it.
00:55Then there are talks that there is a grouping among them.
00:58So if one comes, the other will come.
01:00All things are happening and big questions are arising that will this be a success?
01:05There is a deadline of 10 days.
01:07In 10 days, such a big movement, will it give results?
01:10But today I want to see it from a slightly different angle.
01:13Our economy is in a very nascent stage of recovery.
01:18In fact, it is a fluctuating economy.
01:20And the government shows us only one thing every time.
01:23Look at the stock market.
01:25It has gone to 96,000.
01:27It has gone to 1 lakh.
01:28It is a country of 25 crores.
01:30And there are 2.25 lakh accounts of the total stock market.
01:33And these accounts are not all individuals.
01:35These are multiple accounts that people are doing.
01:37Is this a scale?
01:39I have always argued that the stock market is not a scale to handle our economy.
01:43And when the alarm bells rang, the IMF fund that was coming,
01:47which was already in March,
01:49also landed its staff mission.
01:51Mr. Nathan Porter came.
01:53And you know that he is a very strict kind of man.
01:55We will talk about that too.
01:57But I am looking at it from this angle that if on 24th November,
02:00what is expected is that different cities will be closed in the whole country.
02:04And when the business is closed even for a day in Pakistan,
02:07there is a loss of tens of billions of rupees.
02:10And if this goes on for 3-4 days,
02:12then it will already be a loss of hundreds of billions.
02:15What will be the impact of this on the economy?
02:18Let me tell you a small thing.
02:20For example, the amount that we have agreed with the IMF,
02:23is 13 trillion.
02:2513 crores.
02:276.25 billion for 6 months.
02:30The first report that came out,
02:32this is for 4 months,
02:34there is already a shortfall of 190 billion plus.
02:37And what is projected,
02:39when the figure comes by December,
02:41then it is possible that there will be a shortfall of 230-240 billion.
02:45People are also talking about a mini-budget.
02:48And there is a reason for a mini-budget.
02:50The IMF has also decided that
02:52if your target of tax,
02:55if there is a shortfall of more than 1% in revenues,
03:01then you will have to bring a mini-budget.
03:04And when this was being discussed in the Senate committee,
03:08then he said to the Senate,
03:10that I will give you a briefing in camera.
03:13Where are we financially?
03:15Because it seems that the IMF is more concerned than our leaders.
03:19Some are in Switzerland, some are in London.
03:22The finance minister is also out.
03:24Everyone is going for 4-4 days.
03:26The IMF is sitting here.
03:28Where are we economically?
03:31And the mega-trends that are told to us every day,
03:34and the big figures are told,
03:36these are half-truths.
03:38These are whole lies.
03:40What is our exact economic situation?
03:43We will talk about this.
03:45We are joined by Dr. Mufti Ismail,
03:47former Federal Minister for Finance.
03:49And Mr. Shahbaz Rana,
03:51a very senior journalist.
03:53He also does his program on Express.
03:55It is a serious program on economy and all these issues.
03:58So Shahbaz, I will start with you.
04:00Because all the controversial news are yours.
04:03We read and learn a lot from them.
04:05First of all, tell us,
04:07why did you come here in March?
04:09Why did you panic so much?
04:11If there is a shortfall in revenue,
04:13then it is okay.
04:15First of all, congratulations to you.
04:17I came to your show for the first time.
04:19You are late, but I am not late.
04:21May Allah make you successful.
04:23Look, this program,
04:25in the past,
04:27we always say that this will be the last program.
04:29But at the end of the IMF,
04:31they have had enough of Pakistan.
04:33And this time,
04:35the mission statement of the IMF,
04:37after the approval of the program,
04:39there was a statement of the directors,
04:41the board members,
04:43in which they emphasized
04:45on implementation.
04:47This is the reason,
04:49when the first session ended,
04:51we started reporting from here,
04:53that they are getting off track.
04:55And their own internal assessment
04:57of the Ministry of Treasury,
04:59that all the goals we have set,
05:01we will collect the tax.
05:03In the beginning, we used to say
05:05that this is impossible.
05:07So why are you surprised
05:09when there is a shortfall?
05:11Look, you must remember,
05:13when I asked the Minister of Treasury
05:15at the post-budget press conference,
05:17he was very angry.
05:19He said, you have made up your mind.
05:21I told him a simple thing.
05:23You give a commitment.
05:25You have imposed new taxes on history.
05:27So now give us a commitment
05:29that this mission has to stay in Pakistan.
05:31More importantly,
05:33your tax shortfall is there.
05:35And we have already signed
05:37that when the shortfall is more than 1%,
05:39then the mini-budget will come.
05:41The second issue is that
05:43we need a loan of $5 billion.
05:45And this loan,
05:47apart from the IMF program,
05:49we had committed in three years,
05:51in which $2.5 billion will come
05:53in this financial year.
05:55There is slow progress on that.
05:57We are talking about a new debt rescheduling
05:59with China.
06:01That has not happened.
06:03Then the provinces are not cooperating
06:05in that way.
06:07Khyber Pakhtunkhwa is very blamed.
06:09I often say that they are cooperating
06:11in a very good way.
06:13And they gave a surplus in the budget.
06:15They gave a surplus and are cooperating
06:17in other things.
06:19And they are not complaining
06:21in that way in front of the IMF.
06:23They did not do like Punjab,
06:25I remember Mariam Nawaz's statement
06:27that it will be of Rs. 43 billion.
06:29The finance minister said two days later
06:31that it will be of Rs. 90 billion.
06:33Then it will be of Rs. 65 billion.
06:35We are talking about Rs. 55 billion.
06:37And this is only for two months.
06:39And now they are giving us all the expenses.
06:41They are giving us all the expenses.
06:43See, there are two or three big problems in Punjab.
06:45One was this.
06:47Then they retired the commodity operation.
06:49The loan they had taken to buy wheat.
06:51They have retired it, which is fine
06:53If you have money, you can return it to the banks.
06:55No, tell me this first.
06:57Why did they come now?
06:59Why did the IMF come now?
07:01There are three big things.
07:03The loss of FBI tax.
07:05We have to take a new loan of $5 billion from abroad.
07:07Tell us where it is.
07:09You have promised that we will get it from the Indians.
07:11I was reading your news.
07:13There was a very interesting information
07:15which I would like to share with the audience.
07:17You have written that the Saudi oil
07:19that we have to get,
07:21it will cost us another $600 million.
07:23So the show that we have to do,
07:251.2 billion,
07:27if it happens after four months,
07:29where will we get that $400-500 million from?
07:31Till now, it has not even been five months.
07:33There is a doubt that it will happen.
07:35So 600 million is gone.
07:37Half of it is gone.
07:39If there is a deal,
07:41take out 600 million from 1.2 billion.
07:43The deal will basically be that
07:45you will get $100 million per month.
07:47I don't know what they say in Saudi,
07:49but you will have to pay that $600 million.
07:51The most expensive loan in Pakistan,
07:53which I had informed you about,
07:55ran away.
07:57I don't know if they will take it,
07:59but they have to do this kind of emergency work.
08:01So these two issues have happened.
08:03Then you have the morning issue.
08:05In the morning, there is not only a cash supply issue.
08:07There are many other things.
08:09One problem is that the rate of income tax
08:11on agriculture is still very low.
08:13I was also looking at the Punjab government.
08:15That bill has come in Punjab.
08:17But you will have to see
08:19the reaction of the members of the assembly
08:21in Punjab.
08:23If they try to push through,
08:25what will happen?
08:27Sindh is another big problem.
08:29There is a problem in Sindh as well.
08:31Sindh has a problem at a rate of 45%.
08:33So where there are good people,
08:35there is government, there are allies,
08:37Punjab, Sindh, there is a problem.
08:39Where those useless enemies are sitting,
08:41those PTI people are doing the work.
08:43They are cooperating genuinely.
08:45They are not doing politics.
08:47They are not crying in front of the IMF.
08:49The bill has been passed in Punjab.
08:51Punjab's bill has been passed.
08:53Balochistan's bill will also be passed
08:55in the next 2-4 days.
08:57Sindh and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa are left.
08:59The provincial cabinet of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa
09:01has cleared it.
09:03They have passed a bill to show the IMF.
09:05They have a lot of pressure.
09:07How long will the mission sit here?
09:09It will go tomorrow, hopefully.
09:11This is not the kind of mission
09:13where you have to get a list of new loans.
09:15You have to identify the gaps.
09:17Is the mini-budget coming or not?
09:19I will quote Ali Parvez Malik's statement.
09:21He spoke in the evening
09:23and this is the development till the evening.
09:25He said that the IMF
09:27has not yet told us
09:29whether the mini-budget will come or not.
09:31So he is not ruling it out.
09:33Yesterday, when you mentioned
09:35Rashid Angryal, the chairman of the FBI,
09:37when he was asked, he said,
09:39we can talk to you in camera.
09:41He did not say that it is coming.
09:43What will you do?
09:45Will you put taxes on it?
09:47The fact is that the IMF is listening to them.
09:49They have listened and asked questions.
09:51They have not yet shared their minds.
09:53But they will have to.
09:55Let me share a small figure with you.
09:57In the last four months,
09:59the salary class,
10:01they have paid
10:03a tax of 111 billion.
10:05And the retailers
10:07and shopkeepers,
10:09they have paid a tax of 12 billion.
10:11111 and 12.
10:13It was the same in the last year.
10:15All their taxes
10:17are paid by the taxpayers.
10:19And where the situation is bad,
10:21where there is no money to eat poison,
10:23in the same year,
10:25the government's current expenditure
10:27has increased by 21%.
10:29And a package of 35 billion
10:31is coming under the
10:33reformation of the FBI.
10:35Its break-up is also very interesting.
10:37Dr. Mifta is coming to you.
10:39I was reading it.
10:41He says, keep listening, keep washing your hair.
10:43I was watching it.
10:45A package of 32.5 billion has been approved.
10:47Out of that,
10:495.6 billion,
10:51plus 5.5 billion,
10:53is only to buy 1087 cars.
10:551087 new vehicles.
10:57Why is that?
10:59Because the 17th and 18th grade
11:01will be given incentives
11:03to buy cars.
11:054 extra salaries
11:07for 2.5 billion.
11:09One incentive is that if you don't work,
11:11you will be fired.
11:13In the private sector,
11:15they fire you if you are useless.
11:17They don't give you a new car.
11:19They will give you a new car,
11:21two salaries, you work.
11:23All this is going on.
11:25This is the approach of the government.
11:27I have run a government organization.
11:29I am in the position
11:31that vehicles should not be kept.
11:33The government spends a lot of money
11:35on maintenance.
11:37It costs more than a new car.
11:39If you change your car every 30 years,
11:41believe me, it is financially viable.
11:43Instead of maintaining old cars,
11:45it is destructive.
11:47But they are giving incentives
11:49because you will work.
11:51This was a side.
11:53Let's talk to Dr. Mifta also.
11:55Mr. Mifta,
11:57what is the economic situation?
11:59They show us the stock market.
12:01When you were a minister,
12:03you also quoted the stock market.
12:05When you come to the opposition,
12:07you say that the stock market is nonsense.
12:09Where do we stand?
12:11On 24th, the country will be closed.
12:13We are talking about hundreds of billions.
12:15This will be a loss.
12:17Can the economy bear this shock?
12:21We have seen that
12:23there is a lot of power
12:25to tolerate us.
12:27Even now,
12:292.5% of Pakistanis are below the poverty line.
12:3110.5 crore Pakistanis
12:33are below the poverty line.
12:35Unemployment is increasing.
12:37You have 2.5% population growth.
12:39I don't think we will reach 3%
12:41growth this year.
12:43It is difficult to find a job now.
12:45You need at least 6% growth
12:47in which you create 2.5 million jobs.
12:49More than 2.5 million people
12:51come to the job market every year.
12:53Unemployment is increasing every year
12:55due to which poverty is increasing.
12:57The economy is in a very bad state.
12:59One positive thing
13:01in the economy
13:03is that oil prices
13:05have fallen in the world.
13:07Due to this,
13:09we have found a room
13:11where the dollar is
13:13falling.
13:15The state bank has
13:17managed to keep the dollar stable.
13:19Secondly,
13:21we have found a room
13:23where inflation has decreased.
13:25Inflation has not decreased.
13:27The rate at which inflation
13:29was increasing has decreased.
13:31Last year,
13:33inflation was 25%.
13:35This year, inflation will be 12%.
13:37People say that
13:39inflation has decreased.
13:41Dal and chickpeas
13:43have decreased by 450 kgs.
13:45People say that
13:47inflation has decreased but
13:49inflation has not decreased.
13:51For example,
13:53last year,
13:55dal was Rs. 80 per kg.
13:57If dal was Rs. 80 per kg,
13:59last year,
14:01dal was Rs. 100 per kg.
14:03Inflation has increased by 25%.
14:05This year, inflation will increase
14:07to Rs. 112 per kg.
14:09The second problem is that
14:11not only are things increasing,
14:13but people's incomes
14:15are not increasing.
14:17Unemployment is increasing.
14:19Businesses are not increasing.
14:21Consumers have been
14:23poor for the past two years
14:25since COVID-19
14:27and post-COVID inflation.
14:29Pakistani consumers
14:31have become poor.
14:33If the purchasing power
14:35of a country
14:37is reduced by 15-20%,
14:39the country is broken.
14:41This leads to political anger
14:43and political upheaval.
14:45If you want to see
14:47the macro,
14:49the government
14:51has imposed
14:5338.5% tax
14:55on people
14:57who work.
15:01This is a direct tax.
15:03When you buy things
15:05from the market
15:07and they spend
15:09indirectly,
15:11the tax is reduced by 52%.
15:13You are right.
15:15I am talking about
15:17doctors and
15:19chartered accountants.
15:21You have imposed 50% tax on them.
15:23You are asking a doctor
15:25or a cardiologist
15:27to give you half of
15:29what you are earning.
15:31He is asking you
15:33and not the government.
15:35They earn more in cash.
15:37It is not a matter of doctors
15:39and others.
15:41When you impose
15:43such a high tax rate,
15:45evasion will increase.
15:47What services
15:49are you providing?
15:51Tell me.
15:53In summers,
15:55your electricity load
15:57is reduced.
15:59In winters,
16:01you don't get
16:03electricity anywhere.
16:05I live in Karachi.
16:07There is less electricity
16:09in Islamabad.
16:11You don't come home
16:13and your mobile phone
16:15service is not good.
16:17Shark cuts our wire.
16:21If a person dies,
16:23it is difficult to find a grave.
16:25Do you see the danger
16:27of a mini-budget?
16:35There was no drinking water
16:37in Karachi.
16:39We thought this was
16:41because of the people's party.
16:43But there is no air
16:45to breathe in Punjab.
16:47You should go to Switzerland.
16:49You should go to London.
16:51You should go to Punjab.
16:53You should go to Geneva.
16:55Your leadership is amazing.
16:57Half of your cabinet
16:59has gone.
17:01Learn from them.
17:03If you can't breathe,
17:05go to Geneva or London.
17:07I would like to request
17:09a mini-budget.
17:11I want a mini-budget,
17:13but it should be different.
17:15You have put tax on milk,
17:17children's clothes,
17:19milk and stationery.
17:21You haven't put tax on graves.
17:23I request you to reduce
17:25the extra Rs. 350 billion
17:27you had kept in the PSDP.
17:29I request you to reduce
17:31the amount of Rs. 700 billion
17:33you gave to MNAS and MPH
17:35in the ADP projects.
17:37I request you to cut
17:39only 3% of the 22%
17:41you had increased.
17:43I assure you,
17:45you won't need a mini-budget.
17:47When Shabaz Sharif
17:49repeatedly says
17:51that we will sacrifice,
17:53we are ready to sacrifice.
17:55You should also sacrifice a little.
17:57What was the need of 22%
17:59to increase the additional expenses
18:01in a country with 12% inflation?
18:03You said that we will do
18:05but we didn't.
18:07You said that some ministries
18:09will give to the provinces,
18:11but we didn't.
18:13You talked about the National
18:15Finance Pact,
18:17that BISP and other expenses
18:19will be given to the provinces,
18:21but you didn't.
18:23You said that agriculture
18:25will be taxed,
18:27but it hasn't happened yet.
18:29The IMF is coming,
18:31so they have passed 2-3 bills.
18:33I have been hearing
18:35for 4 years
18:37that there are 32-33 lakh
18:39shopkeepers in this country.
18:41This time also,
18:43the target was 5 lakh retailers.
18:45I am coming back to this,
18:47but I want to ask one thing.
18:49What is this new trend
18:51to discourage solar?
18:53Solar is friendly
18:55and cheap.
18:57If their electricity is not being sold,
18:59will the IMF impose
19:01restrictions?
19:03What will happen?
19:05The process of discouraging solar
19:07has started in silence.
19:09Check the solar panels
19:11on the roofs of houses.
19:13Check the rates
19:15that were given to the government
19:17before.
19:19The incentives have been reduced.
19:21It used to be net metering
19:23in Punjab, not in Karachi.
19:25Now it is gross metering.
19:27The rate at which electricity
19:29is being sold has changed a lot.
19:31That work has started.
19:33The problem is that
19:35more than discouraging solar,
19:37the IMF is asking a fundamental question.
19:39The electricity shortage in Pakistan
19:41has reduced by 9%.
19:439% less than projected
19:45and 7% in 3 months.
19:47The Punjab government says
19:49that they want to promote
19:51solarization, they will give incentives,
19:53subsidies, and cheap loans.
19:55The government of Wafaa says
19:57that there is a contradiction
19:59between the two governments.
20:01The IMF is objecting to this.
20:03This is a different party.
20:05Have you forgotten?
20:07There is a family in the same family.
20:09There is a family in Punjab.
20:11You have left the Muslim League.
20:13You don't know about it.
20:15Mr. Miftah is being mischievous.
20:17He is talking about two parties
20:19in the same house.
20:21I have a small objection
20:23to Mr. Miftah Ismail.
20:25He says that we are ready to make sacrifices.
20:27They will be ready, but we are not.
20:29You have also mentioned about Rs.111 billion.
20:31Why should I ask you
20:33if you are ready or not?
20:35If you are ready,
20:37we will also support you.
20:39Listen to me.
20:41Mr. Shahbaz Rana,
20:43are you a shopkeeper?
20:45Do you have the property
20:47of billions?
20:49Then you be quiet.
20:51Who are you?
20:53Who are you?
20:55You can backstab me.
20:57You can backstab me.
20:59Mr. Miftah,
21:01you were the finance minister.
21:03There is a big crisis
21:05of electricity.
21:07There is a reaction on solar.
21:09They say that electricity is not being sold.
21:11What will happen if solar is encouraged?
21:13How much electricity can the government sell?
21:17I have done a PhD in economics.
21:19I have done business for 20-30 years.
21:21It is simple.
21:23If you want to sell more,
21:25you have to reduce the price.
21:27There is no need for long-term philosophy.
21:29You have to reduce the price.
21:31If you are selling the most expensive electricity
21:33in the whole region,
21:35India, Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Maldives,
21:37Thailand, Indonesia,
21:39Malaysia, South Africa, Tanzania,
21:41Kenya, you are selling the most expensive electricity.
21:43You are selling the most expensive gas.
21:45It is possible that there is something wrong
21:47in our system.
21:49Let me point out something.
21:51A report was published
21:53in which the same kilowatt per hour
21:55that was used here
21:57and in Kenya and India,
21:59at least 30-35%
22:01was over-invested.
22:03So, here,
22:05you have to sell the most expensive electricity
22:07when there is a shortage.
22:09If you reduce the price of electricity,
22:11your circular debt increases.
22:13That is why I am asking
22:15if you sell the cheapest,
22:17the cheapest electricity in the world,
22:19what will happen?
22:21First of all,
22:23I would like to say that
22:25in Pakistan,
22:27the fixed cost
22:29of electricity
22:31is Rs. 18.
22:33If you are getting electricity
22:35for Rs. 60-70,
22:37the question is
22:39where is the remaining Rs. 52-42 going?
22:41Because the variable cost
22:43is Rs. 12.
22:45So, you should have
22:47an average of Rs. 34.
22:49Where is the remaining money going?
22:51Have you reduced the line losses
22:53in the last 5 years?
22:55Have you reduced T&D losses?
22:57Have you improved the bill collection?
22:59For some time, there was an improvement
23:01in power in the bill collection
23:03when the caretaker government was there.
23:05After that, when Rashid Langrial
23:07touched the wrong places,
23:09he was removed at that time.
23:11Shahbaz Rana will confirm this.
23:13The fact of the matter is
23:15that you have not allowed
23:17those people to touch
23:19the people who had the bill.
23:21You are selling 5-10% electricity
23:23to those people
23:25who are not paying the bill
23:27in the current months.
23:29Someone will pay the bill.
23:31You have taken electricity sales
23:33for Rs. 70.
23:35You are giving the industry
23:37for Rs. 50.
23:39You are saying that
23:41you need to sell more electricity.
23:43The way to sell more electricity
23:45is to reduce the electricity
23:47cost of all the people.
23:49Your solar issue will also reduce.
23:51You have to sell more electricity.
23:53Sell it closer to the variable cost
23:55where possible.
23:57But what about the IMF?
23:59I will come to this, Shahbaz.
24:01You have done a lot of stories on this.
24:03If you reduce the electricity cost,
24:05the IMF says that you will not
24:07touch the petrol and electricity prices.
24:09Economics 101 is very simple.
24:11Will the IMF allow this?
24:13I will give you a solution.
24:15You don't have to force
24:17any investor.
24:19You don't have to renegotiate
24:21any contract.
24:23I am not saying that you should not do it.
24:25You should do it.
24:27Muhammad Ali himself said
24:29that our SAPM is renegotiating.
24:31He said that the saving
24:33to renegotiate the contracts
24:35will be Rs. 2-3 per unit.
24:37In your electricity bill,
24:39Rs. 16 per unit subsidy
24:41will be given to the poor.
24:43Is this a social welfare contract?
24:45Why didn't the government
24:47reduce its expenses?
24:49The government itself
24:51agreed to the Rs. 52 tariff.
24:53In the winter package,
24:55they said that it will be reduced
24:57by Rs. 51.
24:59What is the break-up of Rs. 51?
25:01Rs. 18.50 is the idle capacity
25:03payment.
25:05In the winter package,
25:07the cost of electricity
25:09is Rs. 11.50.
25:11In the winter package,
25:13the cost of electricity
25:15is Rs. 16.
25:17The profit margin
25:19is Rs. 3.50.
25:21If the government
25:23reduces the electricity bill
25:25by Rs. 1.50,
25:27the IMF will not object.
25:29The winter package is good
25:31and not bad.
25:33Your consumption
25:35as a residential consumer
25:37has been incentivised
25:39by the government
25:41by 25%.
25:43I would like to take a short break.
25:45I would like to elaborate on this.
25:47People's biggest concern
25:49is the cost of electricity.
25:51Secondly, the PIA issue
25:53is a very detailed issue.
25:55You have repeatedly tweeted
25:57and given statements.
25:59I would like you to explain
26:01to the viewers
26:03who has polluted this issue?
26:05Is it the government's fault?
26:07Is Rs. 12-13 crores
26:09being spent every month
26:11and Rs. 900 crores being spent
26:13every year?
26:15Is there a solution?
26:25Welcome back.
26:27I would like to finish
26:29this discussion.
26:31Mr. Miftad,
26:33you said earlier
26:35that such packages
26:37can be made
26:39for a small consumer.
26:41Please tell us
26:43about your proposal.
26:47Sir, we have reduced
26:49the electricity bill
26:51by Rs. 10 for
26:53100 units of electricity.
26:55If a consumer
26:57buys 101 units of electricity,
26:59the bill will be Rs. 15.
27:01The bill will be Rs. 15,
27:03as opposed to Rs. 1000.
27:05A consumer
27:07has to pay Rs. 515
27:09for 101 units of electricity.
27:11The bill remains within
27:13100 units of electricity.
27:15Similarly, the bill
27:17remains within 200 units
27:19or 400 units.
27:21If we change this
27:23policy,
27:25will the bill
27:27be reduced?
27:29Yes, the bill
27:31will be reduced.
27:33We will increase the bill
27:35by 25%
27:37so that the consumer
27:39can consume more electricity.
27:41In Pakistan,
27:43electricity consumption
27:45is very low
27:47compared to India.
27:49Have you given
27:51an update on
27:53the bill?
27:55Yes, we have.
27:57The bill remains
27:59within 100 units of electricity.
28:01The bill remains within
28:03100 units of electricity.
28:05The bill remains within
28:07100 units of electricity.
28:09The bill remains within
28:11100 units of electricity.
28:13The bill remains within
28:15100 units of electricity.
28:17The bill remains within
28:19100 units of electricity.
28:49The bill remains within
28:51100 units of electricity.
28:53The bill remains within
28:55100 units of electricity.
28:57The bill remains within
28:59100 units of electricity.
29:01The bill remains within
29:03100 units of electricity.
29:05The bill remains within
29:07100 units of electricity.
29:09The bill remains within
29:11100 units of electricity.
29:13The bill remains within
29:15100 units of electricity.
29:17The bill remains
29:19within 100 units of electricity.
29:23IPCC
29:25IPCC
29:27IPCC
29:29IPCC
29:31IPCC
29:33IPCC
29:35IPCC
29:37IPCC
29:39IPCC
29:41IPCC
29:43IPCC
29:45No, no, no, I am agreeing with myself. I said, yes, this was the change in our government in 2014.
29:50Sir, I want to move to the last comment.
29:53Basically, the IMF has finished it.
29:57This is the policy of the IMF and the World Bank of Pakistan that it is stuck in this trap.
30:02And you can de-incentivize it as much as you want.
30:04Mr. Miftad was talking about Punjab. The prime consumer of electricity is Punjab.
30:09Our four Punjab companies and one distribution company in Islamabad carry the burden of the whole country.
30:14And relatively well-being and better people are in economic conditions in Punjab.
30:20So, if this consumer leaves, then they will know.
30:23This is a very difficult situation.
30:25And the last comment on this is that you were talking about line losses and theft.
30:30The loss in the last half year was Rs. 591 billion in electricity theft and line losses.
30:36And since the government of Prime Minister Shahbaz Shahbaz is doing a very good job and I want to praise him,
30:41this year's projected loss is Rs. 637 billion.
30:44It is going from Rs. 591 billion to Rs. 637 billion.
30:46It is a very good job.
30:48It is a very good job.
30:49It is growing.
30:50Sir, account for the inflation as well.
30:54Whose inflation? Is it the one of corruption or the other one?
30:58Okay, let's come to the PIA.
31:01The government is increasing its own expenses.
31:05Leave that.
31:06The rest, line losses, theft, this has also increased.
31:09Leave that as well.
31:10One of our thoughts is that this loss of Rs. 800 billion has been accumulated.
31:14Every year, Rs. 90 billion is added.
31:16Okay, the PIA will be sold.
31:18What is the dirt of the PIA, Mr. Mifta?
31:21Please tell us that quickly.
31:23Sir, look at the PIA.
31:26The PIA has incurred more than Rs. 700 billion in losses in its history.
31:31And nowadays, it is incurring more than Rs. 100 billion in losses.
31:34The PIA has a total of 35 or 36 aircraft.
31:38Some are leased and some are owned.
31:41Out of these, 15 are capable of flying and the rest are not ready to fly.
31:45I am giving you the background so that people can understand.
31:49The third thing is that since Mr. Ghulam Sarwar's statement came,
31:53civil aviation has not been considered a fit and proper regulatory agency in the world.
31:58So, the licenses given to it are not considered in Europe, UK, Britain and America.
32:04So, the routes are not guaranteed.
32:06The routes are not guaranteed for the buyer.
32:08No.
32:09The airworthiness certificates given to it are not considered.
32:13So, it is not possible for him to go to Europe or England because his system is now separate.
32:18And it is not possible for him to go to America at the moment.
32:21In this background, Rs. 100 billion, just to give you an example,
32:26the cost of running the government is Rs. 600 billion.
32:32So, Rs. 100 billion is a very big cost.
32:34With this, you can build as many hospitals as you want.
32:37You can build as many universities as you want in the whole of Pakistan.
32:40And you can build more than 1200 schools.
32:42We waste that every year.
32:44The PIA, which they wanted to exploit, they had no intention of exploiting it.
32:49What the Caretaker did, they had no intention of doing it.
32:52So, in the beginning, they had four very good parties of Pakistan.
32:56One was the Omni Group and the Pak Ethanol Group.
32:59They had a Swiss company with them.
33:01There was a consortium of Arif Habib.
33:03There was a Lucky Cement Group with them.
33:05Pegasus Airline was of Turkey.
33:07And there was a group of Lexen.
33:10Fly Jinnah.
33:12Air Arabia, with whom Air Arabia…
33:14Fly Jinnah Group.
33:16Fly Jinnah and Pegasus Group.
33:18Fly Jinnah, Air Arabia and Pegasus Group.
33:20Till the end, Lexen and Lucky Cement were serious.
33:24These four were serious.
33:26There was one more with them.
33:28Blue World, who were not so serious, but they were working together.
33:31They did not work so hard in due diligence, but qualified them.
33:34They did not qualify people like Jerry's International, but qualified them.
33:38Now, when they started asking questions,
33:41they gave such answers that all four parties were fired one by one.
33:45Then you said to Blue World,
33:47you stop, you have to deposit only 50 crores, which is your refundable.
33:51And then you bid, you will not get a bid,
33:53you go back with your money,
33:55so that it does not seem that we have fired everyone.
33:57But the truth is that they fired everyone.
33:59In PIA, the balance sheet they have given,
34:02the balance sheet of April, which was given in August,
34:04there was a hole of 50 billion rupees in it,
34:06who also believe that from 50 billion rupees,
34:08your liabilities were more than your assets.
34:10So, whoever was taking, was taking a liability of 50 billion rupees more.
34:13He was taking a liability of 200 billion rupees.
34:15And he was taking assets of 155 billion rupees.
34:17Number one.
34:18The assets that you had given,
34:20you did not include in it that
34:22at least 150 billion dollars will be spent on
34:25to air those aircrafts that you have.
34:28Which today are part of different airports,
34:31mostly in Karachi airport, which are not capable of flying.
34:34In addition to that, you also did not write that
34:36this liability is another one,
34:38that to return the leased aircrafts,
34:40you have to spend about 8-9 million dollars
34:43to get that aircraft reconditioned and leased.
34:46And then he does not even know that
34:48he will be able to take an American aircraft,
34:50or he will be able to take flights to Europe.
34:52And after that, you are not saying,
34:54give us 80 billion rupees also.
34:56First they said that our director will have a veto,
34:59our director will be able to make major decisions.
35:02After that, they came up with a very good thing.
35:04That we will sell you 60% of the company,
35:0640% will be with us.
35:08But you will have to put 300 million dollars,
35:11we will not put the money.
35:13But our 40% shareholding will not be diluted.
35:16They were talking about not selling.
35:19See, even in 2015,
35:21Mr. Dar made an agreement with PTI,
35:23under which he said that
35:25we will only bring minority stakeholders in PIA,
35:27we will not let anyone come to the majority.
35:29So in the world, they did not find anyone
35:31who would invest in PIA and not take the majority.
35:34After that, a loss of 4-500 billion rupees was made.
35:37After this decision, they will have a loss of 200 billion rupees.
35:40If they had given 10 billion rupees instead of 85 billion,
35:43will they get 95 billion rupees next year?
35:45Who is responsible for the loss of 100 billion rupees next year?
35:48So they did not have to do it.
35:49You can see the history of Mr. Dar,
35:51that he has never privatized,
35:53nor has Mr. Shahbaz ever thought of shrinking the government.
35:56Until last year, he was opening new branches
35:58of his Utility Resource Corporation.
36:00He has made a thousand companies,
36:02when will he shrink the government?
36:04So they had no intention.
36:06Eight months have passed since he came to power.
36:08What else has he done?
36:10Has he done the same with FASCO or IASCO?
36:12So they do not have to shrink the government.
36:14Their aim is to keep control over the government.
36:17So what will happen now?
36:19What will happen with PIA?
36:21I was looking at the daily figure.
36:23Last year, it was 11-12 crores.
36:26You are probably saying that
36:28a loss of 20 crores a day is being made.
36:31So we are looking at a gain.
36:33When this year ends,
36:35there will be another loss of 20 crores.
36:37So who is responsible?
36:39When this year ends,
36:41there will be two parts.
36:43One is the PIA Airline,
36:45and the other is the PIA Holding.
36:47The PIA Holding will have to pay
36:49a loss of 72-75 crores to the government.
36:51Because 600 crores were taken from there,
36:53and here it will be 40-50 crores.
36:55So if it does not sell,
36:57and they close it,
36:59what will happen?
37:01There are many national airlines
37:03The request is that
37:05the steel mill in Pakistan is closed.
37:07We have been paying people
37:09their salaries for the past 6-8 years.
37:11In the first two years,
37:13we were also paying overtime.
37:15So the direction they are taking us
37:17is the same.
37:19If they make a sincere effort.
37:21If the steel mill was closed,
37:23why were they paying overtime?
37:25I don't know this,
37:27but I know that
37:29they paid overtime for two years.
37:31Brother, answer me.
37:33No, Mifta Ismail.
37:35Thank God, Mifta Ismail was not
37:37the Finance Minister at that time.
37:39No, I am talking about every year.
37:41This summary comes every year.
37:43Where is the overtime coming from?
37:45No, I am talking about overtime.
37:47The payments keep going.
37:49You must have talked to a lot of people.
37:51Where is the PIA now?
37:53I will just add one thing.
37:55Mifta Ismail is absolutely right.
37:57About a year ago,
37:59I spoke to the Secretary of Finance.
38:01At that time,
38:03there was a proposal in the KTKR government.
38:05The total loan on PIA
38:07is Rs. 825 billion.
38:09No buyer will take such a big loan.
38:11Take out Rs. 625 billion from it
38:13and give it to Parker.
38:15It will be the responsibility of the government.
38:17There will be some assets in it,
38:19like Roosevelt.
38:21Give the buyer a liability of Rs. 200 billion
38:23and give him an asset of Rs. 150-160 billion.
38:25By the way, that asset is on the book value.
38:27The actual value is much higher.
38:29At that time, I told him that
38:31all this is happening
38:33not for privatization.
38:35I told him to mark my words.
38:37It will not be privatized.
38:39The plan is to take out Rs. 625 billion
38:41and put it on the taxpayers' burden.
38:43Put the loan of Rs. 268 billion
38:45of commercial banks
38:47in the pocket of the Fakir government.
38:49From there,
38:51they will keep giving interest.
38:53PIA will say that
38:55the burden of Rs. 13 billion
38:57which was a monthly loss
38:59has reduced to Rs. 4 billion.
39:01Have they ever thought of stopping it?
39:03Mr. Miftad, I feel that
39:05PIA is going in the same direction
39:07as the steel mills.
39:09Let's take a break
39:11and then come back to the closing comments.
39:13Let's take a break.
39:15Welcome back to the show.
39:17Mr. Miftad,
39:19last question.
39:21I read your tweets.
39:23You said that
39:25the SIFC should be involved.
39:27Call them and ask them.
39:29If you want,
39:31you can call the general
39:33and ask him
39:35what they have done.
39:37Will the SIFC handle it?
39:39Will the SIFC handle it?
39:43Sir,
39:45the institution
39:47in which we live,
39:49the environment in which we live,
39:51do they come to power without them?
39:53Whether the SIFC wants it or not,
39:55on the one hand,
39:57they are responsible for the SIFC.
39:59Today, the people are looking at them.
40:01When Mr. Shabaz Sharif,
40:03or Mr. Dar,
40:05or Mr. Aurangzeb,
40:07do not perform well,
40:09people look at the SIFC.
40:11The SIFC should intervene.
40:13This is a national interest.
40:15You should know.
40:17If you have four serious buyers
40:19and all of them leave,
40:21you may make a mistake.
40:23Introspection is necessary.
40:25You have a record
40:27that you have never allowed
40:29privatization in history.
40:31If the SIFC wants to do privatization,
40:33they should look at it.
40:35Sir,
40:37sector-wise,
40:39is the government
40:41taking big decisions
40:43on the political economy?
40:49I would like to comment
40:51very quickly.
40:53The SIFC is involved
40:55and is legally involved.
40:57The government has cut
40:59the SIFC's wings
41:01with the IMF.
41:03In the IMF's report,
41:05it is written that
41:07the SIFC cannot give
41:09tax exemptions,
41:11tax incentives,
41:13preferential treatment
41:15and many other things.
41:17The government has cut
41:19the SIFC's wings
41:21with the IMF.
41:23You can blame anyone,
41:25but you cannot blame
41:27the political leadership.
41:29They have destroyed
41:31a huge project in Karachi.
41:33It is going to be a zone.
41:35Believe me,
41:37it has been four and a half years
41:39and the annual revenue
41:41is $300 million.
41:43But the bureaucracy has destroyed it.
41:45Your question is about big decisions.
41:47There are no big decisions.
41:49Fundamental drastic steps
41:51are not being taken.
41:53Procedural things are being done.
41:55Mifta, closing comment.
41:57What should happen immediately?
41:59The government is not
42:01reforming a single penny.
42:03It is not reforming a single penny.
42:05Our system is the worst.
42:07We are the same country
42:09that was the richest in 1990
42:11and is the poorest today.
42:13We will have to make
42:15wholesale changes and
42:17surgical strikes.
42:19The business as usual
42:21will go back and forth.
42:23The government of Shahbaz Sharif
42:25is not reforming a single penny.
42:27They are only working
42:29to save their seats.
42:31Mifta, thank you very much.
42:35It is very simple.
42:37For example,
42:39tax is not increasing.
42:41People are being taxed again and again.
42:43Optics of economics
42:45are increasing.
42:47If you look at the press,
42:49everything seems to be great.
42:51We have given two or three examples.
42:53PIA is a glaring example.
42:55The losses of 1991 were billion.
42:57How much is it now?
42:59It is projected to be more than 600.
43:01It is projected to be more than 600.
43:03Everything is down.
43:05They show us only one thing
43:07and that is the stock market.
43:09It is so easy to manipulate the stock market
43:11in this country.
43:13We have seen it again and again.
43:15I remember
43:17that one day the stock market
43:19fell by 450 points.
43:21The next day, it rose by 600 points.
43:23Then, they went back.
43:25This is how the stock market is.
43:27In English, it is said,
43:29Walk the talk.
43:31If the government does not walk the talk,
43:33then we will be out.
43:35May Allah have mercy.
43:37May Allah have mercy.
43:39May Allah have mercy.