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00:00to have you on the programme, General Hodges, this evening. First of all, just step back a second,
00:06because if I'm right in saying, you were one of the key signatories. You sent an open letter to
00:10British Foreign Secretary David Lammy, to US Secretary of State Antony Blinken. Two months
00:15ago, you called for a lifting of restrictions on weapons of the West to strike deep into Russia
00:20back then. So this is something you felt strongly about for a while. Tell us why and how you feel
00:25about the decision by President Biden this week. Well, obviously, I'm happy that President Biden
00:32finally did this. It should have been done two years ago. You can see how much the Russians
00:38dread Ukraine having this capability now that can destroy Russian headquarters, Russian logistics,
00:44Russian artillery. That's what the Russians have wanted to avoid. They know that they cannot win
00:52this war unless the West quits. The war actually started, as you know, and your listeners know,
00:57back in 2014. And after almost 11 years, Russia, with every advantage, still only controls about
01:0618% of Ukraine. Their economy is in tatters. They can only hope that we will quit. This is why
01:14they have launched this intermediate range missile. It's a sign to me of their desperation.
01:22We're going to talk about President Putin's response in a minute, Ben, but I'm really
01:27interested just to take your point a bit further. So you talk about these, what you call highly
01:31defended strategic targets. You talked about headquarters, ammunitions depots, sites that are
01:38key to launching offensives. You've said before, I think, to deal with the sheer mass, the bulk of
01:46Russian troops, which has that advantage over Ukraine, you can only really deal with that
01:50successfully through precision. Tell us about that. So, well, thank you. And you've touched on
01:56it very, very clearly. The advantage that Russia has of mass numbers. So like, think of the 50,000
02:04Russian and North Korean troops that are being assembled to attack the Ukrainian bridgehead in
02:10Kursk. Most of them are not well trained, particularly the Russian troops. So they're
02:16mass. And the way the Russians employ them is by pounding the Ukrainian defenses over and over and
02:24over with artillery and rockets. So to coordinate these things, you have to have tactical headquarters
02:30and you have to have the artillery and rocket launchers. And then you have to have tens of
02:35thousands of rounds of artillery ammunition. So if you can eliminate those three things,
02:41it really undermines Russia's only advantage. And that's exactly what the Ukrainians did
02:47on the first chance to use the attack. They struck a large ammunition storage point in Bryansk,
02:54which is about 180 kilometers inside Russia. So not exactly deep inside Russia. And then,
03:01of course, the storm shadows were used to strike a Russian and North Korean headquarters. So
03:07I think this is exactly what Ukraine needs to do. And it looks to me that that's what
03:12they are targeting first. And those storm shadows proved very effective in the past as well. Last
03:18year in Crimea, hitting HQ, 34 Navy Russian staff killed. They actually don't have their fleet
03:26in Crimea anymore. The Black Sea fleet is a result of that. From your perspective now, though,
03:32the US, the Pentagon saying today this wasn't an escalation. And yet we've seen the complete
03:38opposite in terms of rhetoric from Russia, aren't we? We're hearing from Vladimir Putin to say that
03:43this is a continuing escalation and this is our response, this intermediate intercontinental
03:48ballistic missile. Tell me your thoughts on that and why it's causing such consternation in Europe.
03:56Well, I think that the Russians know that they're not going to use a nuclear weapon. I mean,
04:02they're not going to start a nuclear conflict because Ukraine destroyed an ammunition storage
04:07point. I mean, let's be practical and think through what we're talking about here. They're
04:11not going to start a nuclear war because there are zero positive or upsides for Russia if they
04:18do this. Russia and, I'm sorry, China and India have both told Russia do not use a nuclear weapon,
04:24mainly because they don't want disruption of their access to cheap Russian gas. The United
04:30States has said catastrophic consequences if you use a nuclear weapon. And there's no effect on the
04:37battlefield that will give Russia any kind of advantage if they employ a tactical nuclear
04:42weapon. So they know that they're not going to do this. But they also know that there are a lot of
04:48people in Washington, D.C. and in some European capitals that are terrified at the idea that,
04:55oh my God, Russia might use a nuclear weapon. And so the Russians exploit that fear by doing exactly
05:02what they just did. It's a good point and actually echoes as we're speaking. Actually,
05:07we're just hearing from where you are in Germany, Annalena Baerbock, a German foreign minister,
05:12saying that, quote, the best protection for peace in Europe is supporting self-defense to Ukraine.
05:17She goes on to say, playing with fear is the recipe that Putin uses best. It's a recipe that
05:24he uses best, but seems to use it with some degree of success. Listen to the rhetoric of Donald Tusk
05:31today, the Polish prime minister, saying we are at a serious risk of heading towards a global
05:36conflict. What do you make of that? Because there is this careful balance, isn't there right now,
05:41of balancing rhetoric of fear versus a real reality. Do you see a mismatch in what Donald
05:48Tusk is saying, or do you think he's right? Well, I think that European leaders, especially in Poland,
05:55they live, you know, close to the threat. I mean, not only do they touch Russia in Kaliningrad,
06:02but they also have Belarus and Ukraine right there. And Poland has a history with Russia
06:08that's, there's nothing good about that history. So they, of course, they're concerned, which is
06:13why Poland is doing so much to build up their own defenses. They've really become a leader
06:19in the alliance. And I suspect that they are not quite sure what the new U.S. administration
06:25is going to do. So it seems to me that Prime Minister Tusk is one of the leaders in Europe
06:33that is going to represent a new center of gravity for defense and security. So I pay
06:39attention to what he says. Let's take a look, because you just touched upon very clearly,
06:44actually, the Storm Shadow, the ATACMS, the American missiles, plus this intermediate
06:50intercontinental missile from Russia. Let's just take a look at the details that we have of their
06:55capabilities. So if you're looking at the British-French made Storm Shadow scope, range of up to
06:59250 kilometers, speed of 1,000 kilometers an hour. And we look at the stronger, well, the ATACMS,
07:05suitably named the U.S. ballistic missiles, up to 300 kilometers range, 3,700 kilometers an hour.
07:12And then we go up to the Orishnik, essentially the hazelnut tree, the translation there,
07:15hypersonic intermediate range ballistic. The Russian used in Dnipro yesterday up to 5,000
07:21kilometers, a significant range, 10,000 kilometers an hour. Vladimir Putin say that's around three
07:28kilometers a second. So just talk us through militarily your thoughts around that and why
07:35there is such concern or whether there is credence and reason to be concerned.
07:43Well, of course, Russia has been attacking civilian targets from the beginning. I wish that
07:50the international community would be more concerned about Russia's daily war crimes,
07:55the killing of civilians. Every single Russian officer that is in the chain of command that makes
08:00targeting decisions or launches enemy strikes, their name should be public, their faces should
08:06be on milk cartons, and they should know that they are never going to live in peace until they've
08:10been held to account. So that's one part of this. The second part of this, and your graphic there
08:16was actually very instructive. The range of the weapons that the U.S. and UK and France have
08:23provided to Ukraine are clearly tactical level weapons. I mean, 300 kilometers. You can barely
08:32reach inside of Russia with weapons like that. And of course, they're used to take out the
08:38headquarters and the logistics, as we just talked about, or the way they use the storm shadows in
08:45Sevastopol, again, which you alluded earlier, to destroy the maintenance facility in Sevastopol
08:51as well as the headquarters. Exactly what these things are intended to do. The 5,000 kilometer
08:57range of this intermediate range missile, that's a completely different kind of weapon. So
09:03when we talk about who's escalating, first of all, there's no need or there's no benefit in
09:08getting into an argument over who did it first, who's responsible. This war could end tomorrow
09:14if Vladimir Putin said, you know, I was wrong. I violated Ukrainian sovereignty. I've been killing
09:19civilians. We're stopping it. We're pulling out. Of course, he's not going to do that unless he
09:24sees that the West is not going to give in to their scaremongering. We know this from history
09:31that if you look weak, that that's what provokes aggression. But if you stand up, if you're strong
09:37and you provide, we provide Ukraine, who, by the way, Ukraine's doing all the fighting. They're
09:41not asking any of us to do anything except give them the tools. This war could have ended last
09:46year, actually. Let's have a listen, General Hodges. This is Sergei Lavrov, foreign minister
09:51in Russia, just a few hours ago, and he was, well, publicly at least, calibrating perhaps what he
09:57called a difficult relationship, a bad legacy that Joe Biden is putting on what could come with
10:03Donald Trump. Let's take a listen.
10:05Regarding the reaction to our response, as I understand it, Zelensky got scared.
10:19He directly began to accuse his hosts of leaving him unarmed in the face of such an action by Russia.
10:27Well, this is probably a useful result because it allowed at least to be closer to reality.
10:35To feel it on your own skin, I would say.
10:39As for what to expect from Biden and his outgoing administration,
10:44well, attacking supplies and allowing the British and French to use storm shadows and scalp missiles,
10:51of course, is an act of leaving a bad legacy to the next administration.
10:58General Hodges, I'm going to put this point to you and I'll also bring in
11:01Emmanuel Shah as our correspondent in Kyiv as well, listening and bringing to this conversation.
11:05But General Hodges, just your thought there on the idea of the Trump presidency. I know one thing
11:11I've heard you talk about before in recent months, that if there are negotiations, there is a concern
11:15that Russia can just slow roll them effectively, continue pounding targets and say, well, we're
11:21trying, we're negotiating, it's not our fault. Well, of course, I expect that Russia will
11:27continue to deny responsibility for any of this, even though they obviously,
11:32and I think all serious people know, that Russia was the aggressor back in 2014 and has continued
11:39to be doing that. They're the ones that are killing civilians, not the Ukrainians.
11:45Now, I think that the Biden administration did a good job on keeping 50 nations, leading 50
11:53nations to stay focused on support for Ukraine. But the mistake that the Biden administration made
11:58was that they failed the critical test of clearly identifying why this is important for us, that
12:05this is not charity for Ukraine. This is for security and stability in Europe, as well as
12:11for the United States. It's about our economies. It's about making Russia live within its own
12:17borders. And also, of course, about deterring China. So if the president had been more clear
12:23about that, we would have had much better policies, capabilities would have been delivered by all of us.
12:29And like I say, I think this war should have ended last year. Listening to Foreign Minister Lavrov,
12:34who used to be one of the more, let's say, respected diplomats in Europe, he's the one
12:42that's going to have the terrible legacy because he's been continuing to push the lies and the
12:47false narratives from the Kremlin and a legacy of failure because Russia is probably only a year
12:56away from actually being completely done from an economic standpoint with this war.
13:02General Hodges, I want to ask you about Germany in a moment. I just want to bring in Emmanuel
13:05Shah as our correspondent in Kyiv. Emmanuel, just listening to Ben Hodges there, making clear
13:11just this fear game being played by Vladimir Putin as he sees it, as Anna-Lena Baubach in
13:16Germany. The Foreign Minister also sees this as well. Just tell me about the reality on the
13:21ground in Kyiv today. I understand there was a session in Parliament cancelled today because
13:24of concern of another attack. Yes, there were concerns that the Parliament might be under
13:33attack during an air raid alert. That's why it was evacuated. That being said, Ukrainians today
13:39are not more worried than they were yesterday. They know who is targeting them, and that's Russia.
13:44They have identified their aggressor since 2014, like Ben Hodges aptly reminded us. Of course,
13:54people here are very scared of those air raid alerts, of that risk of being targeted because,
14:00as we've mentioned, civilians are targeted by Russia here in Ukraine. However, they know
14:07what Russia is capable of. We also heard Volodymyr Zelensky, the Ukrainian president, saying
14:12in one of his latest addresses, our crazy neighbor has used a new missile against us. He cannot
14:19stand that people are living in dignity and freedom just in the neighboring country. He's,
14:26as usual, fear-mongering among Ukrainians. This just shows you how Ukrainians are feeling right
14:35now. Of course, there is fear. Is there more fear today than yesterday after the strike with this
14:43new missile, intimidating missile on Dnipro? No. Ukrainians perfectly know by whom they are
14:50targeted, and they are under no illusion that this is going to stop by the sole will of Vladimir
14:56Putin, who also, again, according to the president, has no real wish to stop this war.
15:03So we're hearing as we're speaking more information coming from agencies, from the Kremlin,
15:07suggesting that, quote, quoting Vladimir Putin, saying there's no other weapons like the weapons
15:11that we have. Also, as well, news agencies from Reuters and AP suggesting that Ukraine is looking
15:18to obtain better quality, what they call the FAD, the U.S. Terminal High Altitude Area Defense
15:24Systems, upgrading its Patriot systems again, and also saying that, this is a senior general in the
15:30armed forces, quoted, saying, according to our data, the number of these new Russian experimental
15:35missile systems are limited. So that will be some relief in Kyiv. You mentioned, Emmanuelle, as well,
15:41the attack on Dnipro. Do we know the extent of the damage there?
15:48Well, the army won't communicate on the extent of the damage for obvious strategic reasons. Now,
15:53the Ministry of Defense of Russia said that they had targeted the ammunition,
15:58the foreign industrial complex used by the Ukrainian military, and that the strike was
16:03successful. So there's no way that we can verify this because the Ukrainian army will not confirm
16:08this. But what it shows is that Ukraine still is in need of more air defense system, not just
16:15regarding the strike here in Dnipro, but we also have to keep in mind that Ukraine and Ukrainians
16:20have been targeted all across the country daily since this summer. The numbers of aerial attacks
16:30has really increased. Today, the city of Sumy was struck once again by kamikaze drones. And this
16:38time, for the first time in the region of Sumy, says its governor, there were shrapnel pieces
16:43in those kamikaze drones. They cannot carry huge explosive charges, but putting shrapnel pieces
16:50there, that means they can inflict maximum damage on people. And those are not military we're talking
16:56about, those are civilians we're talking about. And in doing so, Russia is committing yet another
17:01war crime as it targets civilians, which are not a legitimate target of war.
17:05I mean, Emmanuelle, great to talk to you. Emmanuelle Shah is our correspondent in Kyiv.
17:10Listening to that, General Bernhardt, I'm interested in two things. One, when we listen
17:14to the rhetoric of Vladimir Putin saying there's, quote, nothing else like this,
17:18this experimental missile, it seems on the face of it, it is propaganda. But what's your
17:24assessment of that? Well, first of all, I thought Emmanuelle's report was very good. And I mean,
17:31she's there. And she said exactly what I would have expected, that Ukrainians are not more scared
17:37today than they were yesterday. They have been getting hit by the Russians starting 11 years ago,
17:43but intensively starting almost three years ago, as you pointed out. And of course, Russia has been
17:50using nuclear capable weapons from the very beginning. So this is not, I mean, the headlines
17:57that came out yesterday and the day before, like, oh, my God, this is possibly an ICBM,
18:03nuclear capable, that's old news for the Ukrainians. But getting those kind of headlines,
18:10of course, is exactly what the Kremlin had hoped to achieve, is getting people alarmed. And I've
18:16seen Americans, some useful idiots talking about, we're closer to World War Three than ever. What a
18:25ridiculous statement by people that are not very well informed. The other point, closer to home
18:32where you are right now, is what's going on in Germany. You talked about the open letter you put
18:36out in the past to the Brits, to the Americans, to allow the use of long-range missiles. There's
18:41still a no from the Schultz, what's left of the remnants of the Schultz government on the
18:45tourist missile system, and their traffic light coalition has collapsed. What's your take on,
18:50first of all, the difficulty for the German government in doing that, and also what difference
18:55that would make? Well, this has been a massive letdown or disappointment by Bundeskanzler
19:04Schultz. I think most Germans would want to see, in fact, Germany is the second largest contributor
19:11of aid to Ukraine. But also, Chancellor Schultz is, I think, excessively afraid of doing something
19:20where Germany would be held vulnerable by the Russians. Unlike France and unlike the UK,
19:26Germany does not have its own nuclear weapon. And I think that figures, that weighs heavily
19:31on the Bundeskanzler as he thinks about what to do. But I think that this is all going to change
19:37in February. There's elections in Germany, of course. And you've got people like Friedrich
19:43Merz from the CDU, who has said that if Russia doesn't stop, that he would immediately give
19:48tourists to the Ukrainians. So he's going to be much more forward-leaning. And you've mentioned
19:54Annalena Baerbock a couple of times, she and Robert Habeck of the Green Party. I mean,
19:58they were arguing to provide weapons to Ukraine even before the large-scale invasion. So
20:06my view is that the majority of Germans want to see this done to help Ukraine. They understand
20:13the cost. If Ukraine fails, that Germany will probably be the biggest loser in terms of
20:19economic impact and refugees coming to Germany from Ukraine. It's just not going to happen as
20:25long as Schultz is still in power. A final thought, Ben, is if you were advising the NATO
20:31leaders next week in this meeting with Ukraine over the defence assessment and what's happened,
20:37what would you be saying? I would say that, number one, we have to be very clear about the strategic
20:44objective, about why we're doing this and what is the outcome that we all want. And the outcome
20:48that we all want is for Ukraine to defeat Russia, push them back to the 1991 boundaries. If you do
20:56that, that would secure the European security environment, that would improve the European
21:02security environment for decades. If we don't, we'll have missed a huge opportunity. Great to
21:09talk to you, Ben Hodges, former retired American general, lieutenant general in Afghanistan, Iraq,
21:14commander general for the US Army in Europe. Thank you so much for your time this evening on France 24.
21:20Thanks, Gary.