"There are more Atiq Ahmads," says Rajesh Singh, the author of 'Baahubalis of Indian Politics - From Bullet to Ballot.' The story of how a man becomes a baahubali in Uttar Pradesh.
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00:00I think Ahmed was law unto himself those days. I think Ahmed was always politically well-connected in any case.
00:07Bahubali's also helped them with money. Bahubali's helped them in the field, in rigging elections.
00:12Author, a political and public affairs analyst, journalist and who was the media advisor to former Chief Minister of Goa, Manohar Parrikar, Rajesh Singh, welcome to Brute Talk.
00:22Thank you. I want to start of course by asking you first, the biggest thing right now is, you of course are the author of the book of Bahubali's of Indian politics,
00:36From Bullet to Ballot. I am going to start by asking you, you have written about eleven Bahubali's including Atiq Ahmed.
00:45And in your chapter on Atiq Ahmed, you've said, if Allahabad is revered for the confluence of three sacred rivers, it was also known for the confluence of Atiq Ahmed's politics and crime.
00:56Everyone in Prayagraj has heard of Atiq Ahmed. The younger lot may have escaped the full experience of those dreaded times, but the elders still recall with a chill going down their spine,
01:08the atmosphere that revealed when the dawn straddled the city and terrorized the public. You've spoken to people and gotten accounts from them,
01:18from Prayagraj during Atiq Ahmed's reign, time. Can you tell us about those times? What was Allahabad like and more specifically Atiq Ahmed?
01:30Atiq Ahmed was a law unto himself those days. You see, because of his political connections, he was close to the Samajwadi party for a long while.
01:39And the Samajwadi party was the ruling party. And even when it was not, Atiq Ahmed was always politically well connected in any case.
01:47Now, his way of dealing was, see, he was a Bahubali. He started off on a very small scale, small time pilferer of coal,
01:57which he used to pick up from the railway tracks. Those days you had coal trains running. And then he would sell it in a grey market.
02:03And then he got into the business of railway scrap and all of that. And he made some money. He got people around him.
02:09And he came from a very poor family. So, and so, when he started getting all that money, he expanded.
02:17He got into construction. And then he, and because of this foot soldiers around him, he started also arm twisting people,
02:26getting government contracts. A lot of government contracts in Uttar Pradesh, whether it was irrigation department, the PWD or whatever.
02:34Now getting government, in those days there were no e-tenders. So, getting government contracts was all physical.
02:41And he actually literally used physical means to get those government contracts. He tied up with people.
02:47He made sure that his people got the contract. And so, therefore, he continued to flourish.
02:53So, from pilfering coal small time, then getting into the scrap business and then from there looking at tenders, getting government tenders,
03:02when you say, there were, and for our young audience when you say there is no e-tenders, what was it like to be able to physically get a tender?
03:09What did you need in order to get the government tender? тАУ You see, the first thing is you needed to fill a tender form, right?
03:15And then you had to make sure that your tender was the lowest for you to be accepted. You had no way of knowing technically who is going to be the lowest tenderer.
03:25But so, but you had to fill in the form in the first place. Now, Ateeq made sure that the only guys who filled the form were his people, one.
03:35Two, even the others who filled the form quoted high, his people quoted low. He would get to know who was going to quote how much
03:45because of his networking with the officials of the government department. And also he made sure through
03:53intimidatory tactics that the guys who could get the contract or who wanted to get the contract backed out.
04:02So, there were many ways. Money was one, you tempted them with money, you tempted them, chalo, agla contract mil jayega.
04:09And if they did not listen to all that, then of course, you could always beat them up, terrify them, all of that.
04:16So, that is how he started his business. And he became famous and big from there on. тАУ So, this was on the business side of it.
04:24What was Allahabad like for a common man or a common person then operating a business, being, you know, maybe a real estate person, operating any kind ofтАж
04:35You could not. You could not do anything. As far as business is concerned, you could not do anything without Ateeq Ahmed approving it.
04:43For example, let's say you are in the business of developing real estate. Okay. Now, in those days, I don't remember.
04:51I don't think there were high-rise buildings in Prayagraj. Today, of course, there are quite a few. But even plots, vacant plots,
04:58if you wanted to do deal in vacant plots, you had to take Ateeq's permission. тАУ For anywhere. тАУ Anywhere to sell, to buy, whatever.
05:09Give him a cut. If you did not do that, his people would make sure that the deal doesn't go through.
05:18There will be hassles, there will be problems. People will come and squat on the plot. They would not vacate the plot.
05:25All sorts of things would happen to make your business and your transaction difficult to go through. So, you had to pay him.
05:33And during that time, you know, I mean, the question is, what was the administration or the police or the government thinking of or doing or not doing?
05:44They did nothing. They did nothing. At least from the 90s onwards they did nothing because the government belonged or the party which was in power
05:53belonged to the party in which Ateeq Ahmed was in power. That is one thing. The second is Ateeq Ahmed was also seen as a vote catcher
06:03from a particular religious affiliation. So, he was also not touched and possibly also because of the benefits that he was passing on to the party
06:15at some level or the other. So, nobody bothered to, you know, sort of interrupt his activities.
06:23And so, they let him continue. In fact, I have, if I remember right, I don't know if it is there in the book, but when he forcibly got a deal done,
06:37a land deal done by making the man sign on the sale deed, selling a land which he did not want to sell to Ateeq,
06:45he said that he would complain to the authorities, to the police, to wherever. So, Ateeq was in a generous mood that time.
06:52So, therefore, he did not beat him up. He just smiled and said, why don't you just go to the chief minister directly and see what happens.
06:58So, that was his audacity. That is the brazenness in which he used to function those days.
07:04Tell us a little bit, you know, without naming the people, you have quoted them in the book on, you know, of various age groups,
07:13on what it was like during Ateeq Ahmed's time, so to speak. Anything that comes to mind in terms of an anecdote that somebody told you?
07:23I mean, there was a police officer, of course, he cannot be named, he is retired now and he is living out of Praharaj, he is not there,
07:33but he was posted there and he once told me that our hands were so tightly tied that we knew what this guy was doing.
07:43We knew the terror and the havoc he was causing and we used to get repeated complaints, a string of complaints almost every day about his activities,
07:52across and not just Praharaj but in neighboring regions such as Kashambi, Chitrakoot, all of these places.
07:59But he said, we just couldn't do anything. And even the few occasions when we tried to intervene, the message came to us from the very top
08:09that we should not be too enthusiastic about it. So, let things happen as they are happening.
08:17So, he said that we were, you know, if the common man was helpless, that could be understood because the common man had no power.
08:25But we, with all the power of our uniform, we were even more helpless than the common man. So, that was his terror.
08:34So, even the police were, the hands were tied. Tell us a little bit about, you know, you've used the word darbar in the book.
08:44You've said Atiq Ahmed's darbar, he used to hold one. What kind of business did he conduct there?
08:51Why was it called a darbar? Give us a little bit of sense of what it looked like and what happened.
08:57The darbar was largely not for conducting any business. The darbar was basically to meet common people.
09:06People whom, you know, with whom he interacted on a regular basis. People from the neighborhood, people from Allahabad.
09:14Because you see, he also fancied himself as a Robin Hood kind of character. So, the darbar basically was to listen to the grievances of the people,
09:23try to resolve them in his own way and therefore make himself popular among the masses.
09:32Because you see, these all gangsters and this is not just about Atiq Ahmed, but even others, they used to have these kind of
09:40interactions with people because that is where they got their strength from. The strength to become a Bahubali came from the people who voted them to power, no?
09:52So, you had to be that and for that you had to interact with people, interact with the common man, you know, once in a while get the problems resolved.
10:00So, that he was seen as a people's leader. So, that was the kind of darbar he used to have.
10:06Almost sounds like a movie, you know, on what we have seen. Would you know, like, how many people largely would be in this darbar?
10:15What kind of issues that he would take up from time to time? тАУ The people, the number of people would vary. It could be a few hundred,
10:21it could be a little more than that sometimes. тАУ Few hundred or more.
10:25Few hundred or more depending upon where he was having his darbar, sometimes in his house, sometimes elsewhere, some office somewhere.
10:32And the kind of issues are, as I said, somebody has a problem with the neighbour or somebody has a problem with somebody trying to,
10:38having a problem with the wealth. The government for example, somebody can say ki, ki, I have applied for permission for something,
10:47for an NOC, for extension of my house or for the construction of an addition floor. I have not got the NOC. It's six months now.
10:56Or the guy is asking for money. Something like that. So, he would intervene and he would just pick the phone, call that guy and say,
11:04usa kaam kar do. You know, that kind of stuff which we see in Hindi films. тАУ Right. Exactly like that. тАУ Exactly like that.
11:10Usa kaam ho jaana chahiye. Usa kaam kar diye. тАУ How did somebody born into a poor family,
11:16pilfering of coal, getting into scrap like you have explained, really become a politician?
11:22A five-time, you know, MLA, a one-time MP. Tell us how, how did something like this actually come to being?
11:32Atik Ahmed in the 90s had already become, was already working closely with the, with the Samajwadi party at that point in time.
11:43See, we have to understand that the 1990s onward was a period when the regional parties were really flourishing.
11:52So, the Congress and we are talking of UP. Let's talk of UP specifically. The Congress had already declined in UP during that time.
12:00The VP Singh government had fallen. By 1991 it had already gone. And Mulayam Singh Yadav's party, Mayawati's party was already well-entrenched.
12:12The BJP then for a while was still relevant, though it would become irrelevant after 1995-96 only to become relevant in 2017.
12:20But that time, yes. But these two regional parties were the big parties. Now Atik Ahmed realised that
12:27he has to latch on to one of these two. And during that time it was, and so he decided that he should get in touch with either of that.
12:40And he got in touch with Mulayam Singh Yadav's party also because Mulayam Singh Yadav's men, as I told you earlier,
12:47found merit in exploiting his religious affiliations for party, for votes. So, that is how he got into it.
12:56But initially he became a worker, a fundraiser and at times a settler of disputes within the larger party organisation.
13:09People wanted, wanting something or the other, wanting a bigger pie in the infrastructure and he would be there to, you know,
13:15sort of explain to them nicely, you should not pursue this or you know, that sort of stuff.
13:21So, basically the dirty work he was doing quite a bit. And then, you know, many, and then he got this ticket
13:30from the Samajwadi party. But I want to add here that this happened with most other Bahubalis
13:39who realised that all these years we have been working to make sure that these politicians win elections and we use our expertise in that.
13:50So, why don't we use this expertise to get ourselves elected? So, that also was a turning point in the criminal politician nexus,
14:02in the crime politician nexus. And that's how it happened even with this man, Atik Ahmed.
14:09You know, both these points, you have said in your book in the North and you are referring to North India here,
14:14in the North, however, caste became an important factor used both by the Bahubalis and the parties that backed them.
14:20For example, Raghuraj Pratap Singh in UP and Pappu Yadav, Anant Kumar Singh and Anand Mohan
14:27Singh in Bihar came to represent their respective castes.
14:31The first candidate was co-opted by the BJP and SP to win over upper caste specially Rajput votes.
14:36The second by Lalu Prasad Yadav's RJD to consolidate its Yadav vote. And the third and fourth by various parties to
14:43who the Bhoomi are and Rajput electorate. Why is crime and caste so intertwined in the North?
14:50Was it always like this or was it during the era of this nexus that we saw, you know, from the 70s, 80s and 90s when it came to a boil between the Muslim men and the parties?
15:03Caste was always there, right? And caste conflicts were also always there. Now, what
15:08happened is the Mandal Commission recommendations when they were implemented,
15:13that created a huge churning in society, specially in North India and we are talking of UP and Bihar in the current context.
15:20And when the Mandal Commission recommendations were implemented, the other backward castes suddenly found themselves empowered.
15:28And when that happened, obviously, a clash between the upper castes and the backward classes grew and became more intense.
15:37Now, when that happened, the Bahubalis were already around, I mean, people like Pappu Yadav or, you know, all of these.
15:46The politicians were already there who were, who had been thrown as a, you know, who had become prominent as a result of the caste politics.
15:54Lalu Yadav, Nitesh Kumar, Mulam Singh Yadav, Sharad Yadav, Ram Vilas Paswan, not so much Ram Vilas Paswan because, but others, all of these.
16:03But the Bahubalis also belong to some caste or the other. Now, when the upper, when the Mandal Commission recommendations came,
16:11depending upon their caste affiliations, Bahubalis began to consolidate their positions. Anand Mohan Singh, Anand Kumar Singh rallied around the upper castes in Bihar.
16:25Stitched together an alliance of Thakurs and the Bhumihars. Pappu Yadav became the leader of the Yadav community.
16:33So, that is how, and Raghuraj Pratap Singh, Raja Bhaiyya's in Uttar Pradesh also was an upper caste guy.
16:42So, all of these people started flaunting their caste identities, basically, one, to present themselves as the Messiah of their respective castes
16:53and two, to also enhance their own reputation as Bahubalis. Because what is a, what use is a Bahubali if he cannot even protect his own caste man.
17:04So, that is how the caste conflict, specially in post-Mandal era started. And that's the connection between caste and Bahubalis.
17:14And now coming to, you know, politicians and Bahubalis, the, did this have, you know, why did it become such a symbiotic relationship?
17:24From the Bahubalis, was it more about, since they were a law unto themselves, it was more about sort of gaining more power at the end of the day?
17:33And for the politicians, because they needed the musclemen in terms of, you know, I don't know, ballot boxes, things like that.
17:39What was that symbiotic relationship between them? тАУThe symbiotic relationship was very simple. If the politicians had certain limitations,
17:48they could not dirty their hands doing things that needed to be done to get them votes, to sustain their power.
17:58So, those dirty, so, to get the, because they could not get their hands dirty, they got people around. They got the Bahubalis to do all the dirty work.
18:06So, the Bahubalis, casual people terrorized them, intimated them to help them, to help these politicians get the support.
18:16Bahubalis also brought in money because you see, muscle power also automatically brings in money. тАУMoney. тАУSo,
18:21Bahubalis also helped them with money. Bahubalis helped them in the field in rigging elections.
18:27Bahubalis also made sure that the rivals of that particular political leader was taken care of, not too active, not too enthusiastic.
18:38All of that used to be taken care of by the Bahubalis and that's where the Bahubalis became important to the politician.
18:46Talking about becoming important to the politician, you know, one of the biggest things was that you have spoken about is during the UPA,
18:57a bit on the Manmohan Singh government and the nuclear deal when the left parties had, you know, withdrew their outside support.
19:06So, your book says, he has a distinction on Atiq Ahmed. He has a distinction of being one of the Muslim men who saved the
19:12Manmohan Singh government from imminent collapse after the left parties withdrew their outside support
19:17to the regime in mid-2008 over the government's decision to proceed with a civil nuclear deal with the US.
19:23What did the Bahubali Netas do? How was this stitched together and this came to light after, much after?
19:31Yeah, here I would just like to add a correction. Atiq Ahmed, it is true that a lot of people, MPs who were behind bars
19:42during that time when the trust vote was to be taken in 2009, they were all furloughed and brought to
19:49parliament to cast their vote because Manmohan Singh's government was on tenterhooks that time.
19:56And they needed every vote they could to save the, save the government. But the
20:02correction here I would make is that Atiq Ahmed actually did not vote for the government.
20:07Although I have written that there. I learnt later because that is not something that you know immediately unless,
20:14you know, unless the records are. I learnt later that he voted against the government.
20:18Whatever the reason may be, he had fallen out by then with the SP in any case and the SP was supporting the government.
20:24But the larger picture is that these guys were brought. See, on the one side you have politicians saying that they oppose the
20:33Bahubali culture. They oppose criminals in politics. And on the other side,
20:38you actually call these Bahubalis, you get them a free passage from jail to
20:44parliament just to get their vote to shore up your numbers.
20:47So, that duality was evident in this. And it's possible that some of them must have voted.
20:55I mean, why would, why would the government take the trouble of getting all these guys to
21:01parliament to vote if they were not sure that a majority of them would vote for them.
21:04Right. So, I want to quickly ask you about the Rajoopal murder case. Tell us a little bit about how this became a turning point.
21:12In your book you say, you have called the scene straight out of a Tarantino movie.
21:16Yeah, yes. The Rajoopal case, you see, what happened was, when, I think Amar's ambitions were always growing by the day.
21:27And when the Samajwadi, when it was decided by the Samajwadi party that he should now move to a higher level,
21:34which means he should now enter parliament. He was in an MLA, many times, multi times MLA.
21:40So, it was decided that he should go to parliament. And so, he contested that election.
21:46And he used to represent Rahabad West, the constituency. Now, when he contested the election, the Rahabad West constituency fell vacant.
21:57And because he was vacating the constituency, the party said, you name the person. So, this man names, I think Amar names his brother Ashraf to the seat.
22:08So, Ashraf gets the ticket and he, and there is a contest. The contest is between Ashraf and Bahujan Samajwadi,
22:16Bahujan Samaj parties, Rajoopal. Now, Rajoopal had earlier contested against the same assembly elections against Ati Ganga and lost.
22:27So, Rajoopal was fielded against by the BSP and he won. Now, for a politician, winning and losing is part of the game, you move on.
22:42But Ati Ganga was not just a politician, he was a gangster. And if a gangster starts forgiving and forgetting, then his business is over.
22:50I mean, it's terror, no, that runs his business. So, then a few months after that and a few days after Rajoopal was married,
23:04maybe nine or ten days, I think, I don't recollect the number, exact number of days, he was going in a car in Allahabad,
23:12Allahabad with his friends. So, this whole gang, Ati Ganga's gang, Ati Ganga's gang and possibly he was also there,
23:22they opened fire on him, riddled him with bullets and when the vehicle tried to take him away, just to make sure that he doesn't reach the hospital alive,
23:33they pumped further bullets into him. And this was all happening in the open. So, the vehicles were running all over, the target was running all over,
23:41people were scattered all over, shouting, shrieking and it was all happening in open, in the open.
23:47On the road, in the midst of the traffic, people moving around and these guys were shooting left, right and centre.
23:55So, it was just, you know, out of the blue, a surreal kind of scene. So, he was shot dead and by the time he was brought to hospital, he was, he was dead.
24:05So, why I say that is a turning point and in fact now, after all that has happened, that indeed was a turning point.
24:14Because until now, Ati Ganga was a free man. He could terrorise people, you know, business, deals, this and whatever he was doing.
24:24But this really was a problem. It was, it all began with Radhipal, came to Umeshpal, advection, then went to Umeshpal's killing by Atik Ahmed, Asad,
24:37Atik Ahmed's brother, Atik Ahmed's brother Asad and all this. And finally, to Atik Ahmed's elimination in recent years.
24:45And became a real turning point where even the political parties had to distance themselves. It's the story of quite a few Bahubalis that you've written about.
24:52We've seen, you know, the killing that took place quite recently of Atik Ahmed as well. Most of them, you know, have quite a difficult end which comes in.
25:02Why do you think that is? How do you see all of this play out currently at this point in time?
25:08Are you talking about Atik Ahmed or in general? Yes, both. Atik Ahmed first and then in general.
25:13No, Atik Ahmed is dead and gone. So, that chapter is over.
25:17And what is left of Atik Ahmed's family is his wife and a couple of sons, I think. The wife is on the run.
25:26I do not think that, as most of his properties have been seized, razed to the ground, all of that has happened. I do not think Atik Ahmed's family
25:35will be able to rebuild that notorious empire which Atik Ahmed had. So, that I think the Atik Ahmed chapter is over and for good.
25:43Now, overall, what will happen to, and again, if we are restricting ourselves to UP, what will happen to the Bahubali phenomenon in UP?
25:53That we still have a long way to go. There are so many others. There are more Atik Ahmeds. There are more Atik Ahmeds.
25:59They may be less in stature right now. But there are more Atik Ahmeds and we have to wait and watch and see whether the enthusiasm of this government
26:09is sustained over a period of time or was it just selective.
26:14I want to come to a larger point, you know, on why do people vote for Bahubalis? We have understood who they are, how they came into being,
26:25the nexus between the politicians, them, the symbiotic relationship which was there and why do they prosper as politicians or why do people vote for them?
26:34What do people want from the government or from the administration? They want their
26:40genuine grievances to be addressed and addressed promptly.
26:44Most of the times that does not happen. Now, just imagine a common man from a village or from a small town or from even a city.
26:56He has no connections. But he has got to get his work done in a government office.
27:04Maybe the collector's office or maybe some other office. So, he goes there and to get his issue resolved.
27:12Who listens to him? In a huge government office unless you have contacts, unless you know people, it's very rare for you to be heard.
27:20You may have a land dispute, maybe your neighbour is creating problems for you. So, you go to the regiment authorities,
27:28you go to the police, you lodge a complaint, nobody listens to you. Then what do you do?
27:35So, you go to your next door Bahubali, your friendly neighbourhood Bahubali and tell him huzoor, this has to be done.
27:45I am being terrified. Now, Bahubali loves when people come with these complaints.
27:51One, because it gives him a chance to resolve and show to the world that he is close to the common man.
27:59And two, to reiterate that you need me to get your work done. And I am even bigger than these guys from whom you want to get work done.
28:12Because when you come to me, you believe that I can get the work done from these guys. I am not the collector.
28:18But I will make sure that the collector does your work. So, they love this. And when the work of the common man is done,
28:26then why would not the common man vote for the Bahubali? He will say, theek hai, it's all right.
28:32He must have murdered a few people, he must have terrified some people, he must have created problems.
28:37But my work was done. The collector ought to have done my work. The administrative department officer ought to have done my work.
28:45The police should have done my work. None of them did it. This man has done it. Why should I not vote for him? So, that's how.
28:53So, you are attributing it largely to a failure of the system when it's not working on time, justice delayed, is denied.
29:01Absolutely. When the system fails, the Bahubali's flourish. Now, if the system were to work correctly, were to be empathetic,
29:09were to be prompt, how would the Bahubali's flourish? At least in terms of handling public grievances and becoming popular and winning elections.
29:20See, it's one thing for Bahubali's to make money, even as a politician or as a businessman. But to win elections,
29:26the fear factor cannot be the only factor by which votes can be got. It has to be something more than that.
29:32Which means the public must feel that you have done their work. And so, therefore, these, if the people are, if the politicians or even the administration
29:44takes care of your grievances, the Bahubali's would have no role to play and they would not be that popular.
29:50You are saying that they almost saw themselves as social activists, you know, required and doing social good.
29:59The Robin Hood image that you are talking about. Was there an, do you think there was an era when this used to happen?
30:07Or do you think this is something politically we are going to be able to resolve at some point in time in India?
30:13The Bahubali phenomenon? тАУYes. тАУThe Bahubali phenomenon I don't think can ever be resolved. It can be contained.
30:20Because you will always have at some place or the other some Muslim man, you know, having a
30:27leverage in a political party or outside the political party but still a leverage for himself.
30:33So, that cannot be altogether resolved. But what is possible is to bring down the levels of
30:40criminal elements into politics. That is a possibility.
30:45Rajesh Singh, thank you so much for speaking to us. тАУThank you.