MEDI1TV Afrique : Zoom sur l'industrie avec Abdeslam Seddiki et Ryad Mezzour - 02/12/2024
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00:00Good evening everyone. Welcome to this debrief. Industrial acceleration, new jobs, industrial
00:20and economic sovereignty. So many words, concepts and strategies put in place by Morocco for
00:25the last 15 years, and even more, and which have anchored the kingdom as an industrial pole,
00:28promoter and in the future. The figures and the industrial situation of the country were
00:33presented by the head of the government, Aziz Akhannoush, on November 19, in front of the
00:37members of the Chamber of Councilors. We will evoke these figures and we will talk about them
00:41during this debate, but let us recall this sentence of Aziz Akhannoush. Our country continues
00:46to focus on the industrial sector through a renewed and sustainable policy that takes
00:51international transformations and the rapid evolutions of the world economy in order to
00:55achieve industrial sovereignty. However, the figures and implementations presented by the
01:00head of the government, to detail who they are, do not seem to have convinced everyone.
01:04Among the skeptics, Abdeslam Sderri, economist and former Minister of Employment of the Employment,
01:08who calls for clarification on these projects carried out by the sector of activity and also
01:12by the implementation site. The elements brought by Aziz Akhannoush in front of the Chamber
01:16of Relevant Councilors of the Industry, Abdeslam Sderri asks questions and raises
01:19issues for which he calls for a democratic debate. And of course, it is the Minister of
01:24Industry who is concerned, Syriad Mzour, who accepted the debate. So, we receive today
01:29Abdeslam Sderri. Good evening, thank you for accepting the invitation, but it is you who
01:35asked for the debate, you are there, you are former Minister of Employment of the Employment,
01:40you are a member of the Political Bureau of the Employment and you are an economist too.
01:45Thank you for accepting our invitation. Syriad Mzour, good evening.
01:48Good evening.
01:49Thank you for accepting the debate. You are Minister of Industry and Commerce, you are a member
01:53of the Executive Committee of the Stirlel Party and you are an engineer. So, before getting into
01:58the debate, before getting into this article that you wrote, Abdeslam Sderri, which you
02:03entitled Concrete Implementation and Questions to Clarify, we will first sacrifice tradition
02:09and bring definitions. So, when we talk about food sovereignty, when we talk about energy,
02:14pharmaceuticals, we know what it is, it is to respond to specific needs. But what does
02:18industrial sovereignty mean by the head of government? You have the answer, Syriad Mzour,
02:22to begin with.
02:23First, industrial sovereignty is a royal orientation. It was an orientation that was
02:28specified by His Majesty during the message addressed to the participants of the first
02:32National Industry Day and which encourages industry to enter a new era that will have
02:39sovereignty as a means and as an objective. So, what does it mean concretely? It means
02:46three things. The first thing is that Morocco has built itself industrially in recent years
02:53to respond to opportunities, to be able to attract investments and respond to market
02:59opportunities that are opening up. Today, beyond that, the industry must be able to
03:05respond to the needs of the Moroccans. And this is the first step of sovereignty.
03:12The second step of sovereignty is that Morocco has committed itself as an order-taker.
03:19This means that the decisions, most of the decisions concerning our industry, are taken
03:25outside of our country, outside of our control. It is about starting to work to start investing
03:34and taking control of certain industrial decisions and more and more control of our industrial
03:41decisions. The third is that the world is changing and our allies, like ourselves, are looking
03:50for more reliable sources of supply to strengthen our common sovereignty with our allies.
03:57We have seen this during the COVID-19 pandemic, with drugs or masks being torn off at auctions
04:03on tarmac. And today, we must determine the products we need, the sphere of influence
04:10in which we can obtain them, and work together to strengthen our ability to meet our needs.
04:17Do you have a quick supplement to add?
04:21I think that the issue of the industry is central for a country like Morocco.
04:30This is not a new issue. We have been asking ourselves this since the accession of Morocco
04:36to independence. Why? Because there is no development from our point of view, and I think
04:43it is also from the point of view of our friend Jordi, and also from the point of view of the
04:50Circle L'Aide, which we respect enormously. It is an ally.
04:55It is not really an ally.
04:57We cannot develop a country without democracy, without the industry.
05:06But the industry is not just any activity that can be considered an industry.
05:12I am an economist. I must say that the great theorists on the subject have defined the industry
05:22in the following way, without going into detail, so that we can address our dear viewers.
05:29A great man, a François Perrault, who said that the industry is a collective creation.
05:37It is not the creation of an elite. The whole people must come together.
05:43And the second definition, which also emanates from great economists,
05:49and this has been said in the words of Sir Yad,
05:55the industry is a structural transformation of an economy.
06:01It is the engine of…
06:03So, Abdel Salam, if you allow me…
06:05On this basis, to clarify a few things, I have called for a debate.
06:10And I thank the Minister for agreeing to debate.
06:15Debating is not playing ping-pong.
06:18Debating is not fighting.
06:20Debating is not fighting.
06:22Debating is releasing a consensus.
06:24Tell me in two words, please.
06:25Because we want to serve our country.
06:27What bothered you in the statement?
06:29What shocked you a little?
06:31What surprised you in the statement?
06:33Quickly, in a few words, why did you call for a debate?
06:36What do you not like about the statements made by the government?
06:41When I listened to the intervention of the head of government,
06:45who is a friend whom I respect a lot,
06:47I worked with him in the former government.
06:51And I re-read the text carefully, both in Arabic and in French.
06:57And I found a lot of contradictions.
07:01Numbers that I can't accept.
07:09That I don't find…
07:11And there is no logic.
07:13Too many numbers, little demonstration.
07:16And that bothered me a little.
07:18So I said to myself, we have to get someone from the government to come.
07:21So that the citizens understand.
07:23I don't make definitive judgments.
07:26You want explanations, clarifications.
07:28That's what we all want.
07:30So we're going to go there.
07:31Riyad Moussaoui, you immediately accepted the request for a debate by Syamslam Sderri.
07:35I can even say that you were a demander.
07:37I even asked for it.
07:38You see that we are frank and sincere.
07:40You were a demander.
07:42So what are the elements that have caught your attention
07:45that you consider incorrect or perhaps abusive in what Syamslam Sderri wrote?
07:49First of all, it was a great honor to be able to debate with Professor Sderri,
07:53who is a reference and whom I always read with a lot of attention.
07:57And I learn all the time by reading the articles that you write.
08:03Then it was important to give these clarifications.
08:06Because the head of the government brought a lot of determination and conviction.
08:14This sector.
08:16And I thank him.
08:18And I am quite proud of it.
08:20It is true that these figures may seem surprising.
08:23I will always remember the day I announced two years ago
08:28to one of my predecessors that 85% of our goods exports were transformed products.
08:36I won't tell you his answer, but he said,
08:39Stop saying nonsense, young man.
08:41You don't understand what you're saying, Judy.
08:44And yet, it's true.
08:46And yet, it works.
08:47So the figures are very simple.
08:49It is true that we tend to, by reading the exports of our country,
08:54we read the trade office report all together.
08:57We also contribute to help them structure their rubric.
09:02And we put sectors.
09:03So we put agriculture.
09:04We have the impression that it is agriculture.
09:06But in agriculture, there is a part of the food industry.
09:09Which corresponds to more or less to 45-50% of exports.
09:13We read the phosphates, we have the impression that it is only rock.
09:17On phosphates and derivatives, for example, last year,
09:20there were exports of roughly 77 billion.
09:23The rock means what is mechanically enriched,
09:26which is considered as the mining industry.
09:28It's about 7 billion in it.
09:30The rest is phosphoric acid.
09:32So it's industrial transformation.
09:34And fertilizers.
09:35It's industrial transformation that corresponds to 70 billion blocks.
09:40So we have the impression that it's the mining part,
09:43but it's the valorization part, like industrial valorization.
09:46And many other things.
09:48So I confirm.
09:49I persist and sign.
09:51I confirm.
09:52Figures to the support.
09:53You want us to make the addition.
09:54We will do it together.
09:56Industrial exports of transformed products represent 377 billion,
10:02400 million dirhams.
10:04Out of 430 million, 200 million dirhams of goods exported in 2023 in our country.
10:09Figures to the support.
10:11After the classification,
10:13I think that compared to the definitions of transformation and industry,
10:17is bulletproof.
10:20I mean, we can touch it, but it's surprising.
10:24And it's a number that is speaking, that surprises,
10:27because there is a trajectory in our country that has made us get to this.
10:31And it's good to affirm it, to confirm it.
10:34It's not the fruit of a single government's work.
10:36It's not the fruit of three years of work.
10:37It's the fruit of 25 years of government work,
10:40to which you have participated, to which we have participated together,
10:43and which we are harvesting, consolidating and going further.
10:48And it's good if we get together around the table and say,
10:51OK, we had a doubt.
10:53We look.
10:54It's possible.
10:55It may be the case.
10:56Now, that's what's missing.
10:58Indeed.
10:59Maybe it doesn't have enough impact on everyone.
11:01Let's see.
11:02Maybe it's not disseminated enough in all regions.
11:04Let's see.
11:05Maybe it's jobs that aren't qualified enough.
11:08Let's see.
11:09Maybe there aren't enough.
11:10Let's see.
11:11But on what has been affirmed in terms of figures,
11:14I guarantee you, one by one,
11:16and I don't think we're going to go through the missions of doing them,
11:19but we can do them one by one.
11:20We can do the additions, subtractions, multiplications.
11:23They are bulletproof.
11:24We'll make it simpler.
11:25We're going to let Abdeslam react to that.
11:28Maybe without going back to all the figures,
11:30because there are a lot of them.
11:31Indeed.
11:32I told him about my article.
11:35And I think that this figure emanates from a somewhat extensive vision
11:40of the acceptance of the industry.
11:45In my calculations, with all due respect,
11:50when I do my calculations,
11:52I don't pretend to be right.
11:54I don't find 87%.
11:56I suppose so.
11:57What is 87%?
11:5987% of industrial exports, including global exports.
12:04Of goods.
12:05Yes.
12:06I suppose so.
12:07I suppose that this figure is accurate.
12:11I have a problem.
12:13It means that we haven't diversified enough exports.
12:16And the others, what isn't industrial, what do we export?
12:20Good.
12:22You can say that after you react.
12:24No, no.
12:25Because there was a question.
12:26In the industry, there is something that is missing.
12:34I think it's integration.
12:38Because we leave out the figures.
12:40It's not a problem.
12:41We can have divergences.
12:43But I want a deep discussion about the nature of the industry
12:47that we are pursuing.
12:49What is its impact on the Moroccan economy?
12:52There are fixed objectives.
12:55During the launch of the IPR, the Industrial Acceleration Programme,
12:59I remind you, you know it very well.
13:01The first objective is to move the share of the industry
13:08in GDP from 15% to 24%.
13:1123%.
13:12And create...
13:1323%.
13:1423%, 24%.
13:15About a quarter.
13:16And create 500,000 jobs.
13:19I see, with regret, that these two objectives have not been achieved.
13:25And...
13:26We will let people react to this.
13:28We would like to know why.
13:30We stayed around 15%.
13:3215%.
13:33So since 2015.
13:34What you are saying is that from 2015 to 2023, it hasn't changed.
13:38It hasn't changed.
13:39So all the figures, all the billions, all the hundreds of billions,
13:42they are useless.
13:43All the data coming from the Ministry of Commerce,
13:46the Ministry of Finance, I think it's...
13:49On employment, I refer, once again,
13:53I only trust the statistics offered by the European Commission.
13:58It is the only institution in Morocco that has a vocation
14:02to give figures on employment,
14:04as it has a vocation to give figures on the cost-benefit index.
14:08No other environment can afford it.
14:11Otherwise, we are going to pose problems for our country.
14:13The credibility of the statistics.
14:15At this point, I...
14:18We will let people react to this.
14:20So it's two figures.
14:22Eric is in doubt.
14:2387% of the industry share in exports.
14:26And also the change from 15%.
14:30How much is the industry share in the country?
14:32It's an addition.
14:33148% of automobiles.
14:35Don't argue with that.
14:36Plus 43%.
14:37That's 200%.
14:38Of the food industry.
14:39Don't argue with that.
14:4070% of the acids and fertilizers.
14:42Don't argue with that.
14:43It's the industry.
14:44270%.
14:45Leather textiles.
14:4646%.
14:47Don't argue with that.
14:48316%.
14:49Aeronautics.
14:50Don't argue with that.
14:51340%.
14:52Electronics.
14:5318%.
14:54Don't argue with that.
14:55It's in billions of dirhams.
14:56Yes, yes.
14:57358%.
14:58Other industries.
14:5930%.
15:00Don't argue with that.
15:01These are figures from the Office of Commerce.
15:03These are the same figures.
15:04No, no.
15:05They don't argue with the figures.
15:06These are the same figures.
15:07They argue with the 87%.
15:08But yes.
15:09All the rest is 13%.
15:10No.
15:11Wait, wait.
15:12I'm done.
15:13The sum is 377, which is now unquestionable in the addition.
15:17And we add the 430, which are not unquestionable.
15:20377 out of 430.
15:22That's 87%.
15:24I'm not wrong.
15:25I don't have the time.
15:26I don't have the money.
15:27But I'm working on it.
15:28But we can.
15:29I'm going to give them to you.
15:31And they are clear and clear.
15:32There is practically no dispute.
15:34So now we ask ourselves the question.
15:36It's not a problem.
15:38Now we ask ourselves the question.
15:40What else should we export?
15:41Goods.
15:42I'm talking about goods.
15:4387% of exports are goods.
15:45As you know, a good part of our exports,
15:47we are at 430 billion in goods exports
15:50and about 200, 250 in services exports,
15:53which are another part of exports.
15:55So what is fantastic,
15:57we are told as a developing country,
16:00what do you export?
16:02What do you value?
16:03The goal is to maximize what we produce.
16:06And it turns out that 87% of what we export
16:10is valuing.
16:12These are valued products.
16:14These are transformed products,
16:15which is already exceptional.
16:16So a big industry is also in there.
16:18Yes, of course.
16:19And I'm going to tell you,
16:20the food industry in 2023,
16:23non-transformed is 43 billion
16:25and transformed is 37.
16:27So it's still not bad.
16:28There has already been a progress
16:29of transformation and evolution.
16:31Now we are told,
16:32do we export anything other than industry?
16:34What do you want me to export?
16:35Is it a raw product?
16:36It's not the goal.
16:37So behind the scenes,
16:38it's not, excuse me,
16:39services,
16:40we're not talking about services in there,
16:41services,
16:42I told you,
16:43it's another factor.
16:44Here we are on 430 billion in goods,
16:45and there are 250 billion in services
16:48and we can talk about it
16:49if you want us to be there.
16:51On the transformed parts,
16:53we are quite diversified.
16:55We have sectors,
16:56we have 6, 7 main sectors.
16:58We have the automobile,
16:59which is the first sector.
17:00We have the phosphoric acids
17:02and phosphates,
17:03which is the second.
17:04We have textile and agri-food,
17:06which are 3, 4.
17:07We have aeronautics and electronics,
17:09which are 5, 6.
17:11So there is a diversification that is there.
17:13I didn't interrupt you,
17:14I finished my demonstration.
17:15Behind the scenes,
17:16on services,
17:17we have a quantity of services.
17:19We started with outsourcing today,
17:21which employs 150,000 jobs anyway,
17:24and which is exporting
17:25for 20 billion dirhams.
17:26We even have the way of working,
17:29which is historically our textile trade,
17:33which is considered a service,
17:35because it is a human service,
17:36even if it is an industrial service,
17:38which is inside.
17:39We have financial services,
17:41we have engineering,
17:42which we are starting to export.
17:43All this is being diversified.
17:44That doesn't mean we are done.
17:45That doesn't mean we are done.
17:47That doesn't mean there are still
17:48a lot of things to do.
17:49There are still a lot of things to do.
17:51But we have reached this stage.
17:53And what is important,
17:54and that's why this debate is important,
17:56it is important that we agree.
17:58And I'm telling you,
17:59it's not the result of a single government's work,
18:01it's the result of a kingdom's work.
18:02What is important,
18:03which we all participated in,
18:05it's our work,
18:06all of us,
18:07what is important today
18:08is that we make the diagnosis reliable.
18:10And we say to ourselves,
18:11that's it,
18:12that's OK,
18:13we are there.
18:14What do we have to do?
18:15Where do we go?
18:16What did we miss?
18:17What needs to be done better?
18:18If you please,
18:19if you please,
18:20we'll leave it to you.
18:21Excuse me,
18:22I haven't finished answering
18:23because the integration rate is important.
18:24You mentioned the integration rate.
18:25The integration rate was important.
18:26But go on, go on.
18:27So that I don't use up your time.
18:29No, but to clarify,
18:30when I say the integration rate,
18:32I see the economy as a whole.
18:34And I situate the industry.
18:37If I want to make a map of Morocco
18:40with the industrial sites
18:43and the rest of Morocco,
18:45I find that the industrial sites are islands
18:48in the vast surface of Morocco.
18:50It's a bit like that all over the world.
18:52Yes, but there are still...
18:53Even the most industrialized countries,
18:55even in Japan,
18:56these small cities,
18:57are still islands.
18:59I'm a journalist.
19:00The data...
19:01I'm trying to understand.
19:05You're right.
19:07I share a lot of things.
19:08I'm not a nihilist.
19:10But I see, for example,
19:11the information sector is only increasing.
19:14It's contradictory.
19:16Because you have figures on the information sector
19:18which by definition is informal.
19:20Because the industry should normally absorb
19:23a part of the information sector.
19:25And I agree.
19:26I applaud.
19:27But the information sector is there.
19:29Well, I can try to answer one by one
19:32because you've raised a lot of questions.
19:34No, I'll finish like this.
19:36We're not among the great insufficiencies.
19:41The essence of this industrial dynamic
19:45that no one reads
19:47is the fact of foreign capital.
19:50Moroccan capital is very insufficiently...
19:55represented on the platform.
19:57That's what worries me.
19:59How can we talk about...
20:01It's important.
20:03It's important on this issue
20:05because we started the show
20:06with industrial sovereignty.
20:07If you say there's foreign capital...
20:09How can we talk about sovereignty?
20:11Tomorrow, they can still pick up the luggage.
20:15We'll let you react to that.
20:17What's our plan B?
20:19It's the small and medium industries.
20:21You're right.
20:22They keep complaining.
20:24We'll let you react to that.
20:25I'll try to balance the time.
20:27Go ahead.
20:28No problem.
20:29I'm listening with great pleasure
20:31and a lot of attention.
20:33Me too, if you allow me.
20:35And I'm learning.
20:36First of all,
20:38about foreign capital and Moroccan capital.
20:41It's false news.
20:43It's false.
20:45As you know,
20:47there's only one institution
20:49that has the right to give statistics,
20:51which I object to.
20:53We conduct industrial investigations.
20:55This institution often...
20:57You're talking about the HCP.
20:59You're talking about the HCP.
21:00This institution often...
21:02At the police station?
21:04No, because you're objecting.
21:06I object to the fact that it's the only one
21:08that has the right to give statistics.
21:10This institution often gets the results
21:12of our investigations.
21:13We feed it, of course,
21:15because it centralizes,
21:17and it's its job,
21:19what we can report as information.
21:21We conduct an industrial investigation,
21:23the last one we conducted
21:25in 2022 and 2023,
21:27on the overall
21:29exhaustion of industrial players.
21:31As you know, 75% of the capital
21:33of the industry is Moroccan capital.
21:36So it's false news.
21:39On the other hand,
21:41and you're right,
21:42in the last ten years,
21:4450% of the capital
21:46of the last ten years
21:48is Moroccan capital.
21:51This is good news.
21:53This means that as many Moroccans
21:55as foreigners trust.
21:57The second point you raised,
21:59which is extremely important,
22:00is territorial equity.
22:01And you're right.
22:03Territorial equity is an objective.
22:05Indeed, each region
22:07does not have the same economic
22:09and even less industrial
22:11vocations in general.
22:13And that's why,
22:15according to His Majesty's guidelines,
22:17in this new era
22:19in which we are entering,
22:21we have decided
22:23to make an approach and objectives
22:25and a regionalized industrial plan
22:28taking into account industrial vocations
22:30and industrial objectives
22:32of each region.
22:33Because today we are in a new
22:35country management scheme,
22:36with the region which has an economic responsibility,
22:38and we enter into a contractual framework
22:40with the region to develop
22:42the industrial vocation.
22:43Concretely, it gives a plan
22:45of industrial development,
22:46with infrastructures,
22:48objectives for each region.
22:49The third point you raised,
22:51and which is extremely interesting,
22:53is that the PAI has not reached its objectives.
22:55The PAI has set...
22:57The industrial acceleration plan.
22:58The industrial acceleration plan,
22:59which was in 2014-2020,
23:01has set the objective of reaching 500,000 jobs,
23:03of creating 500,000 jobs.
23:04So, depending on the police
23:06and the demonstrators,
23:07the demonstrators say it's UNED,
23:09the PAI says it's creation, etc.
23:11When we talk about creation
23:13and we look at the CNSS,
23:15I think that the objective
23:17of a state plan
23:19is to create jobs
23:21that are dignified and sustainable.
23:23When we look at the CNSS,
23:25we ended up with 505,000 jobs
23:27of raw creation.
23:29Indeed, when we look at the statistics
23:31carried out by the HCP,
23:33which are based,
23:35and I repeat,
23:37which are scientifically and academically reliable,
23:39I do not dispute...
23:41It's 120,000 jobs.
23:43I do not dispute their scientific
23:45and academic reliability.
23:47What I do dispute, however,
23:49is that it's declarative,
23:51it's by survey,
23:53it's according to a map of economic actors
23:55that has not been renewed since 2001,
23:57and you know it very well
23:59since you were responsible for the employment sector,
24:01and which is being renewed now.
24:03It means that the economic dynamics...
24:05Excuse me.
24:07It means that the economic dynamics
24:09of our country, which has been observed
24:11by the HCP,
24:13does not yet have these sensors
24:15at the level of the HCP surveys.
24:17But Loussa is still, at the level of the HCP,
24:19a rural commune with 1,500 inhabitants,
24:21while it houses the largest automobile
24:23industrial hub in the region.
24:25So you have to debate
24:27with Commissioner Leopold.
24:29That's what I'm doing,
24:31and I'm happy to be able to debate...
24:33He's not Commissioner Leopold,
24:35he's the former Minister of Employment.
24:37And I'm happy to be able to debate
24:39with Commissioner Leopold.
24:41And I'd like to make a remark, too.
24:43For you, it's...
24:45Before I react,
24:47you were Minister of Employment
24:49for four years,
24:51in 2013-2017,
24:53at the Buchanan government,
24:55and at the time,
24:57the figures were raining,
24:59so between 2015-2017,
25:01it was starting to rain.
25:03You were happy as Minister of Employment.
25:05You didn't question it.
25:07You didn't question the jobs
25:09that were created.
25:11We have always taken into consideration
25:13the jobs as they were displayed
25:15and reported by Commissioner Leopold.
25:17You might be alluding
25:19to the controversy
25:21that took place
25:23between the Minister of Employment
25:25and Commissioner Leopold,
25:27but it wasn't decided,
25:29it remained open.
25:31It's a bit like today's debate.
25:33So you don't question the figures
25:35at all.
25:37Logically.
25:39Because I always take up
25:41the intervention
25:43of the head of government,
25:45who gave a figure
25:47of the investments
25:49that have been made
25:51since the mandate
25:53of the current government
25:55until today.
25:57He said that
25:59they have made
26:01800 billion investments
26:03with the creation
26:05of sometimes 270,000 jobs.
26:07And sometimes we're talking
26:09about 500,000.
26:11If I were to calculate
26:13all the jobs that were created,
26:15I would end up
26:17with an unemployment rate
26:19of 10%, 11%,
26:21but not 13.7%.
26:23So these are fundamental problems
26:25that pose us problems.
26:27Even if the percentage
26:29is small,
26:31it's a matter of principle.
26:33As soon as a figure is wrong,
26:35the rest is wrong.
26:37No, but figures,
26:39they are thrown like that.
26:41I don't want to refer
26:43to Churchill's famous phrase
26:45that said,
26:47statistics are only true
26:49when I have falsified them.
26:51It's a...
26:53It's not bad, it's not bad.
26:55It can look like it.
26:57It's a bit like...
26:59I think there is...
27:01We are uncomfortable.
27:03There is a problem
27:05of coherence.
27:07Because whatever the figures are,
27:09there is a question of logic.
27:11When we make calculations,
27:13there is discomfort.
27:15We feel a certain discomfort.
27:17If you allow me,
27:19we will let him react.
27:21I will say the figures
27:23because the viewers
27:25need to hear them.
27:27The government says
27:29654 projects were signed
27:31for 78 billion dirhams
27:33and should create
27:3589,000 jobs.
27:37In 2012, industrial projects
27:39were treated by the regional
27:41investment committee
27:43for an investment amount
27:45of 800 billion dirhams
27:47and should create
27:49275,000 jobs.
27:51These are figures
27:53that you will confirm
27:55I know there are no international
27:57or national criteria,
27:59but these are figures
28:01of 3 million dirhams per job.
28:03How do you explain this?
28:05First of all,
28:07I will not insult you
28:09by confusing the jobs
28:11that were created
28:13and the jobs that are projected
28:15compared to the industrial projects
28:17that we have.
28:19We are in an industrial sector.
28:21What is good in this sector
28:23is that the investment
28:25that will be made in two years
28:27will begin to be built today.
28:29We have a very materialized
28:31visibility,
28:33project by project,
28:35of all the actors that come.
28:37When the head of government
28:39tells you that we have
28:41so many projects,
28:43674 signed,
28:45which are being implemented,
28:47which have announced
28:49the creation of so many,
28:51this is what is going to happen
28:53at 120%, statistically,
28:55when I look at the history.
28:57This means that it has been conservative
28:59in relation to its forecasts.
29:01Why? Because, as you know,
29:03our support system for industrial investment
29:05is conditioned by the creation of jobs.
29:07This is the major criterion.
29:09This is something that was put in place
29:11at the time of the PAI and that
29:13continued in the new investment chart.
29:15This is something that you know
29:17and master perfectly.
29:19The industrialist knows that
29:21he will only receive his bonus
29:23when he has created his jobs.
29:25In general, he is more conservative.
29:27In general, compared to what we have
29:29in the investment conventions,
29:31and this is what we are announcing today,
29:3397% of these conventions
29:35come to fruition.
29:37When we get to this stage of signing
29:39the convention, because we start
29:41with MOUs, it's a whole process
29:43of recruiting investors,
29:45it's like a commercial process,
29:47we have these chances of success.
29:49And these chances of success,
29:5197% of the projects that are signed,
29:53that means there are 3 that go bankrupt
29:55when we get to this stage,
29:57create 120% of the projected
29:59global employment.
30:01So when we come to announce this,
30:03we only announce 100% to be conservative.
30:05This is the first point to explain to you.
30:07So there is this part of projects
30:09that have been recruited within
30:11the framework of a project bank program,
30:13which is the substitution program
30:15of our imports, which is called
30:17the sovereignty program,
30:19to expand it to the new
30:21orientations of His Majesty.
30:23And there is a much larger program
30:25of industrialization with large projects,
30:27and this is where you see the costs.
30:29We enter into ultra-capitalist projects.
30:31What you need to know is that
30:33the first phase of our industrialization,
30:35we talked about integration,
30:37and I bounce back on what you said,
30:39because that's exactly what happened.
30:41The first phase of our reindustrialization,
30:43because we have industrialized ourselves
30:45to resume, was what we call
30:47the light export industry.
30:49We started with the assembly
30:51of light costs, and then,
30:53as we progressed, we began to
30:55do integration in depth.
30:57And the more we get into
30:59deep integration, the more we
31:01get into heavy capitalistic
31:03with little direct employment.
31:05But that doesn't mean that if we have
31:07a large hydrological complex
31:09or a large chemical complex,
31:11the chemical complexes are not monstrous,
31:13but it upsets an entire ecosystem,
31:15an entire province, and an entire city.
31:17Excuse me, I'll continue.
31:19I'm trying to notice,
31:21because what you're saying
31:23is almost true.
31:25I think that...
31:27I like the almost.
31:29An industry...
31:31No, no, but I like the almost.
31:33An industry that doesn't exercise
31:35training effects
31:37to create jobs
31:39after.
31:41So, precisely, I would like to come back
31:43to advance a little.
31:45We have minimized,
31:47in a way,
31:49rather than negligible,
31:51in part,
31:53maybe we'll come back
31:55in the debate.
31:57So, precisely,
31:59I wanted to come back to this.
32:01You're not going to reproach me
32:03after the show is over.
32:05You have 15 minutes left,
32:07and then you also said
32:09in this article,
32:11so you're talking about the investment chart,
32:13you have to specify, I quote you,
32:15you have to specify that the very small
32:17and medium-sized company, TPME,
32:19has not seen anything yet.
32:21As usual, you're the one who's talking,
32:23as usual, the big ones are prioritized,
32:25the small ones concentrate on the small ones.
32:27It's a direct charge.
32:29So, I'm going to answer you clearly.
32:31No, it's up to you to say that.
32:33Without Serocher,
32:35in politics,
32:37as it is currently,
32:39it plays the game
32:41of big capital,
32:43as they say.
32:45Not only in the industry,
32:47it's also valid in agriculture.
32:49The Moroccan plan
32:51and the Green generation plan,
32:5375% of public investments
32:55concern
32:57profit
32:59in capitalist agriculture.
33:0125%
33:03go to solidarity agriculture.
33:05In the same way,
33:07we have just adopted
33:09the new investment chart.
33:11It's an excellent
33:13text, I have nothing to say.
33:15It's already operational
33:17vis-à-vis the big investors,
33:19but when it comes to the small and medium-sized company,
33:21I learn that it's still
33:23under discussion to get the application text out.
33:25That is, we have started
33:27to serve the big ones first,
33:29and the small ones have to wait.
33:31I have discussed
33:33with the entrepreneurs
33:35of the small and medium-sized companies
33:37that nothing has been done yet.
33:39In other words,
33:41with the big ones,
33:43the unit of account
33:45is the billion,
33:47with the small ones,
33:49the unit of account is the million,
33:51or even the cent.
33:53We have
33:55a potential
33:57in Morocco, among young people.
33:59Once I was at the COP16
34:01that took place in Marrakech.
34:03There was a conference.
34:05COP22 in 2016.
34:07There was a conference
34:09for young people
34:11who came to
34:13present their discoveries.
34:15It's extraordinary.
34:17We must not be
34:19really
34:21how do you say?
34:23Packed.
34:25Packed by the genius of Moroccan youth.
34:27It is to this youth
34:29that we must address.
34:31We have graduates who want to
34:33set up start-ups or small businesses.
34:35We must come and help them.
34:37That's the problem.
34:39We neglect them.
34:41As usual, the big ones will be served first.
34:43The small ones will be content with nothing.
34:45It is conditional.
34:47They will be content with nothing.
34:49Will they be content with nothing?
34:51I will first answer the young people,
34:53because it is something that is important to me.
34:55I believe
34:57that you can only agree.
34:59As far as I know,
35:01the Sterklen party supports
35:03the small Moroccan company.
35:05Of course.
35:07If I can have the opportunity to answer,
35:09I will explain to you that
35:11not only do we agree, but we act.
35:13You go.
35:15No, no, I don't forget.
35:17Don't worry, I don't forget where I come from
35:19and I don't forget who I belong to.
35:21The first thing,
35:23the young innovators,
35:25is one of the first things
35:27this government has attacked.
35:29It came with a unique program.
35:31Unique.
35:33Unico-unique.
35:35Unique.
35:37It is a crazy success
35:39and it is not fully used.
35:41It is the program to support innovation.
35:43I will explain it to you
35:45because it is important for young people to know
35:47that it is there.
35:49We are touring all the universities to show it.
35:51First stage of the rocket.
35:53Each young person,
35:55each person who has an invention
35:57has a subsidy that can go up to
35:591 million dirhams
36:01to do his studies and patent it.
36:03Second stage of the rocket.
36:05Each young person who wants to make a prototype
36:07or a model of his innovation
36:09has a subsidy that can go up to
36:114 million dirhams.
36:13A subsidy, a donation per project.
36:15That is on paper.
36:17No, no, there are 108 projects
36:19and the fund is not fully used.
36:21Come and use it again.
36:23There are 300 million dirhams per year.
36:25It is the first time I hear about it.
36:27So I follow the news.
36:29And yet I talked about it
36:31in your show here with you.
36:33The last time I came on this set.
36:35How many were there at the time?
36:37There were 300 million.
36:39There were 12 that started at the time.
36:41Today we are at 108.
36:43And I tell you, I make a call to the project from here
36:45because it is still open and it is not fully used.
36:47And we are going to tour the universities
36:49to tell them all the time
36:51and I do not stop doing it.
36:53And that's why I'm taking advantage of the opportunity
36:55today to remind them.
36:57It is not yet fully used.
36:59Third stage of the rocket.
37:01Because once we have our prototype,
37:03we have to learn to industrialize it.
37:05Well, there are subsidies that go up to
37:075 million dirhams per project
37:09to industrialize the process
37:11and make a line of industrialization.
37:13No, no, I'm not answering aside.
37:15There is not only those who have prototypes.
37:17There are those who have companies
37:19who want to make companies
37:21at 10, 15, 100, 200,000 dirhams.
37:23The PME.
37:25I started with the young people.
37:27It's important, isn't it?
37:29Very important.
37:31No, you want me not to talk about young people.
37:33No, you talked about it.
37:35Let's talk about the PME.
37:37PME, 1868 industrial projects
37:39that we support.
37:41I'm going to tell you how many there are.
37:43In it, large companies,
37:45198 projects that will create
37:4760,000 jobs,
37:49investments of 60 billion dirhams.
37:51Where are we now?
37:53I'm telling you what we support.
37:55There are 674 that are being executed
37:57and there are the 1,200 that we support,
37:59others to bring them back to execution.
38:01Second phase.
38:03And it's the same distribution,
38:05don't worry.
38:07PME, 1,158 projects
38:09for 93,000 jobs,
38:11for 54 billion dirhams.
38:13Because we also count in billions of dirhams,
38:15only there are about seven times more.
38:17And TPE,
38:19because we also count the small ones
38:21that you talked about. TPE, I'm only talking about industry
38:23and I stay on industry,
38:25on these industrial projects that accompany us.
38:27435 projects for 19,000 jobs
38:29at 3 billion dirhams.
38:31So the support is done.
38:33Now you're right.
38:35The Charter,
38:37the support for the Charter,
38:39for the PME, took time.
38:41Why? And I'll explain why.
38:43It's not a technical question,
38:45it's not a question of political will.
38:47We arrived, the Charter
38:49was easy to develop
38:51because the quantities and the projects
38:53accompanied are identifiable.
38:55Well structured, well done.
38:57No, it's not important quantities,
38:59the bandwidth to accompany them
39:01and the process that we ask for
39:03is so heavy too,
39:05because we ask them to bring back
39:07the Charter, etc.
39:09So the PME?
39:11It's a blockade.
39:13No, no, no, it's not a blockade.
39:15And we wanted to come
39:17with a simplified device,
39:19with an accessible device,
39:21with a fluid device,
39:23not with a tool
39:25that was not going to be used.
39:27For the PME,
39:29it is finally ready.
39:31We are adjusting
39:33the small details.
39:35Excuse us,
39:37because we really wanted
39:39to insist and test it
39:41so that it is accessible to the PME,
39:43that it is not something that does not work
39:45once again,
39:47once again a false promise to the PME,
39:49and there were many.
39:51We wanted to come with something that works
39:53and God willing, it will work.
39:55Mr. Minister of Industry and Commerce,
39:57you are telling us that the government
39:59discovers this thing called the PME?
40:01No, it doesn't discover it.
40:03No, no, it is adapting
40:05a custom product.
40:07It is adapting a product
40:09because all the products that have been given to the PME
40:11until today, all the products that have been
40:13put in place for the PME
40:15have not known the success
40:17that was expected.
40:19So we had to learn the lessons
40:21and re-test products to offer them
40:23something that was up to their expectations.
40:25I have to understand that...
40:27Yes, but on 30 years of
40:29attempts, it's not much.
40:31The entrepreneurs and the middle class
40:33and the very small businesses
40:35who protest, who wait,
40:37they are wrong.
40:39No, they are not wrong.
40:41They are right,
40:43but we will be up to their expectations.
40:45Let's finish, let's finish.
40:47We must not hide
40:49the truth of things.
40:51The practice is that in all countries,
40:53those who are influential,
40:55who play...
40:57That's the reality.
40:59It's a process of attention, Mr. Minister.
41:01It's a process of attention, Mr. Minister.
41:03Let him finish, Mr. Minister.
41:05Let him finish.
41:07It's a process of attention.
41:09The government and the administration
41:11are there to support,
41:13to solve problems,
41:15to facilitate.
41:17What's the use of a government
41:19if it doesn't facilitate things,
41:21if it doesn't simplify procedures?
41:23That's exactly what we're doing.
41:25That's exactly what we're doing.
41:27Exactly what we're doing.
41:29No, no.
41:31It's not true.
41:33It's exactly what we're doing.
41:35It's exactly what we're doing.
41:37It's exactly what we're doing.
41:39In terms of financing, in terms of guarantee,
41:41the banks are very...
41:43We at the PPS,
41:45we have always asked
41:47the creation of a public bank
41:49of investment dedicated
41:51to the small and medium enterprises.
41:53At the limit, we must think
41:55about transforming the fund
41:57for investment into a public bank
41:59because it's a serious problem.
42:01If we really want
42:03to achieve our industrial sovereignty,
42:05it's with the small and medium enterprises
42:07that we can do it,
42:09with foreign capital.
42:11Why didn't you propose it when you were...
42:13No, it was proposed.
42:15It's true, our country...
42:17No, no, they've always proposed it.
42:19It's something that was in their program.
42:21Exactly, exactly.
42:23No, I'm being honest.
42:25When it's true, it's true.
42:27But the process of attention
42:29regarding the big ones
42:31because they're influential,
42:33I can't accept it.
42:35I can't let that happen.
42:37You said it, we heard it.
42:39A public bank of investment
42:41will solve a lot of problems.
42:43We can't be dogmatic
42:45in terms of economy.
42:47We can privatize when they do it,
42:49but we have to nationalize
42:51the old ideas of the PPS.
42:53Great Britain.
42:55They privatized the railway,
42:57now they're nationalizing it.
43:01Because it's management.
43:03Everyone talks about
43:05flexible management.
43:07That's flexible management.
43:09It's not being
43:11based on a principle, a dogma.
43:13The world is changing
43:15at a rapid pace.
43:17Our country must adapt
43:19to adapt to a change.
43:21It's an important thing.
43:23We're going to finish now
43:25because we have exactly
43:27four minutes left.
43:29Or maybe Siam Slams Deri.
43:31In short, billions are falling.
43:33The figures are there.
43:35We're happy with it.
43:37We are not questioning it.
43:39We don't need clarifications
43:41as you said,
43:43but there is unemployment
43:45according to the HCP institution.
43:47You have 4.5 million unemployed, unemployed, unemployed.
43:51No, no, no, you're going too far.
43:53That's the number of the HCP if you go up to 34 years.
43:56You're going too far, you're going too far.
43:57That's the number. Are you contesting this number?
43:59I didn't invent it, it's the number of the HCP.
44:01You're going too far.
44:02When they go up to 34 years, that's what's written.
44:04No, but go up to 55 years, go up to 80.
44:06No, at 80 we're not young, at 34 we're young.
44:09I can talk to you a little bit quickly.
44:11Quickly, in a minute and a half, because there will be two minutes left at this time.
44:14Quickly.
44:15The problem with unemployed people who are neither in employment, nor in training, nor in...
44:21In training.
44:22In training, in training.
44:23In training.
44:24Or unemployment.
44:25No, they are neither in employment, nor in training, nor in training.
44:30It's a societal problem that exists in all countries.
44:34Whether they are developed or underdeveloped.
44:37Not early enough.
44:38Maybe with different proportions.
44:42The number you announced is correct.
44:45But the most interesting number is the age range, 15-24 years, which is 1.7 million, 1.6 million.
44:54That's not bad.
44:55But when you go inside, it's different.
44:58Okay.
44:59I'm going to go inside.
45:01There will be two minutes left.
45:02We go inside.
45:03In this figure, three quarters are women and girls.
45:07Essentially from the rural world.
45:11And less than 20%, 15% have a higher education.
45:18The majority, they have a lower level at the college level.
45:24What are the origins of this?
45:26This work, please.
45:27It's the dropout and the dropout.
45:30In other words...
45:31The concerned ministers are doing the work.
45:33It's a problem of women's employment.
45:35It's a problem of women's employment.
45:37It's a problem of women's employment.
45:39It's a problem of women's employment.
45:42I'm going to make it very simple.
45:46We have spent 45 minutes talking about the observation.
45:49But the real observation is that the economy in our country is able to create, when everything is fine,
45:55200,000 jobs per year.
45:57We need to multiply this by 1.5, or even by 2, to be able to respond to this youth that is coming.
46:03That's the real observation, and we have to use and turn on all our engines.
46:07It's not by denigrating the engines that work and have the potential to go there.
46:11There is one that works, that has the potential to multiply by 1.7 its capacity to operate.
46:18It's good, we're going to push it, we're going to support it,
46:20and we're going to look for others, and we're going to deepen it.
46:23What bothered me in this call is that the observation is not good.
46:28We have something, we have something that has evolved, that has progressed,
46:32that has a monstrous potential with investments coming in,
46:35with a confidence that is made in Morocco that has never been made in its history,
46:39with a confidence that is made in Moroccans, in young people.
46:42I remember a time when they said that a Moroccan worker needed to be twice as competitive as a Romanian.
46:49Today, it's the opposite.
46:51The work is done, we have a monstrous potential, we have a future.
46:56No, we're better.
46:58We're at the end of the show.
47:00We're at the end of the show.
47:01Riyad Bouzour, Minister of Industry and Commerce, thank you.
47:03Me too, I'm a friend.
47:06You asked for a debate, you accepted a debate, you had a debate.
47:08We didn't answer all the questions, they didn't answer all the questions,
47:11but let's move on.
47:12Thank you for following us and see you next week.