Amy Pascal ('Challengers'), Lucy Fisher ('Gladiator II'), Mary Parent ('Dune: Part Two'), Monique Walton ('Sing Sing'), Samantha Quan ('Anora') and Tessa Ross ('Conclave') join The Hollywood Reporter for our Producers Roundtable.
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00:00You're watching something that's different and better and luckier than even what was on the page.
00:06Then you say, I had the right career, I made the right choice, I love my work.
00:30Thank you so much for joining us at the Hollywood Reporter Producers' Roundtable.
00:40I'm so excited to jump into this conversation and to begin with, we're going to start with
00:46an icebreaker for everyone.
00:48What did your first job as a producer entail?
00:52It was one of the few movies that I had the luxury of shooting in Los Angeles.
00:57It's only happened a few times.
01:01The location scout came to me and said, they're asking us to pay again.
01:06And I said, what do you mean?
01:08And they said, well, there's people that don't necessarily want us to be here and they want
01:12us to pay again.
01:13And so I think I was sort of naive enough not to understand what that was.
01:18So I went and somehow talked my way through it and we got to stay.
01:23But it dawned on me halfway through that it was sort of a side deal they were looking
01:28for.
01:30So I sort of navigated through that.
01:33That's a hard one to jump right into the fire on that one.
01:39Amy, what about for you?
01:40Oh, thanks.
01:41I knew you were going to do that.
01:43Well, I worked for a man named Tony Garnett for a very long time, who was a producer.
01:48Then I became a studio executive and then I stayed being a studio executive for a really
01:52long time.
01:53And then I got fired and became a producer.
01:55So the first movie that I worked on as a producer, I had no idea when you were allowed to talk
02:02to the director.
02:03Right?
02:04Because, you know, when you run the studio, you like come on the set and everybody's like,
02:07yeah, hi.
02:08You can do whatever you want.
02:10But like schlepidic producer, right?
02:13So I would just go up to the director after, they're like, we're doing the master.
02:18You're not allowed to like give notes already.
02:21It's like, I had no idea when you were allowed to talk.
02:23So that's what I learned.
02:24That was my first thing to learn.
02:26I've just been watching Amy thinking, I think I have the least experience as a producer
02:30because I was an executive for so long.
02:33This whole.
02:34Yeah.
02:35So I feel like actually my experience of producing was watching other producers truthfully.
02:42So when I started a company, I was really lucky that one of my first films was to make
02:46a film with another producer.
02:48And that producer was a guy called Ed Geinie.
02:50What's the best thing that you learned from watching Ed?
02:53Everything, to be honest.
02:57So literally from how the production team worked, from his own team working with them,
03:01from budgeting to managing how we crewed up, just generally the on set stuff, because it's
03:07very different as an exec that you're involved so much in development and looking at what
03:12the budget might mean and what financing might mean and often delivering.
03:15So editing is a big part of being an exec as well.
03:18But as a producer, it was the on set experience that I just had no real knowledge of.
03:22Other than like you being welcomed like a queen, but really not knowing what to do.
03:26Being a queen was great.
03:27Yeah.
03:28Yeah.
03:29Yeah.
03:30Monique, what about for you?
03:31Well, I fell into producing in grad school and started producing all of my peers films
03:38because there were no other producers in the program.
03:41And so one of the projects that I worked on was a short film called Skunk with my creative
03:46collaborator Annie Silverstein, who I ended up making my first feature with.
03:50But on that, we were breaking all the cardinal rules.
03:54We were working with kids and animals.
03:56So already we were starting off challenging ourselves.
03:59And then I learned that if you are thinking you might have pickups, you should really
04:04store your set design because we, a couple of months later, we returned to the house
04:09that we were filming in, which was a location that was just someone's house.
04:13And we were reshooting part of this makeout scene and we needed the couch.
04:17It was very important.
04:18And so we said, and she was like, yeah, sure, you can come back and film.
04:21And we were like, oh, you still have the couch, right?
04:23And she was like, the couch.
04:24And we were like, yeah, you know, the couch that you had several months ago.
04:27And she was like, oh, that couch, it's out back.
04:29And I was like, out back?
04:30And she was like, yeah, you know, in the field outside.
04:32There was a field behind the house.
04:33Well, what was in a field?
04:34And it was, you know, exposed to all the elements.
04:37And so we had to grab, we had to pick up the couch and to pick up track and just like,
04:42you know, clean it, try to get all the, you know, whatever was growing on it by that point.
04:47So that was a big lesson for me.
04:48Pulling a couch from a field.
04:49You gotta learn.
04:50This is producing.
04:51Samantha, what about for you?
04:55Well, I am an independent film, which is a lot different than executive people, which
05:04I've done everything because my job is to make sure that the movie gets made no matter
05:09what happens.
05:10And I would say as a, as a full producer, we made Red Rocket at the very beginning of
05:20the pandemic, which was a very strange time.
05:22And yes, we made it with ten people.
05:26Ten people.
05:27Yes.
05:28We wore many hats.
05:29Yeah.
05:30And one of my jobs, I mean, we did everything.
05:33Whatever needed to be done, we made sure it got done.
05:36And one of those things was I would apply, when needed, Simon Rex's prosthetic penis.
05:44Yes.
05:45So I'd be running lines with him in the car.
05:49And putting his penis on.
05:50And then, and then it'd be like, okay, are you, are you ready now?
05:53And we'd go and we got very, very close.
05:57And yeah.
05:58And there was one point I was actually, it's funny, I was just talking about it yesterday
06:00where I'm just to make sure that it would stay on while he was running.
06:05I said, hey, can, I'm going to take a video.
06:08Can you just stand up and like do some jumping jacks?
06:11And so I had Simon Rex doing jumping jacks with a prosthetic penis on, but it made him
06:17look like he was naked.
06:18And so I was showing the production designer, I was like, so this looks good, right?
06:22And she's like, you need to take that off your phone now.
06:24It's off my phone.
06:25You're on public Wi-Fi.
06:26Exactly.
06:27Cloud what?
06:28Yeah.
06:29So, yes.
06:30Amazing.
06:31Lucy, what about, what about for you?
06:38I'm asked to follow that story.
06:40Any prosthetic penises in your, of all?
06:45I also was an executive for 25 years.
06:48So I would say the main thing that I learned about being a producer is as an executive,
06:53you can tell people you should fix this.
06:58But when you're the producer, you're the person you have to tell to fix the thing.
07:02And we did have the cat's asshole fall out and Stuart Little, I'm like, you've munched,
07:08you've munched the story.
07:09How does that happen?
07:12It prolapses because of stress.
07:17Anyway, it went back in and we continued to shoot.
07:22Wow.
07:23That cat.
07:24A trooper.
07:25A real trooper.
07:27But the idea that your job is to fix the problem as opposed to identify the problem for somebody
07:33else to fix was a big adjustment.
07:36And I think the hardest part of being a producer and the most fun part is trying to figure
07:39out the problems while on your feet, while 20 other things are going on and trying to
07:44remember what's the most important thing I should be paying attention to right now.
07:48So I'm not paying attention to the thing no one's going to care about.
07:51And I am paying attention to the thing that's going to ruin the movie if it doesn't get
07:55fixed.
07:57That's the hardest part.
07:59And I called Kathy Kennedy for advice many times.
08:03And she knew the answer to everything.
08:05About the cat.
08:06About the cat.
08:07Not about that one.
08:08But now you know so much about a cat's anatomy, so priceless information.
08:12Tessa, I was reading that you had the rights to Conclave for a while since the book came
08:20out.
08:21And when you decided to make the movie, ultimately you all made it outside of the studio system.
08:27You made it independently.
08:29I'm wondering, what was the choice behind that?
08:33Was it because of the subject matter?
08:34Did you ever try to go the studio route?
08:36Or did you know this is a film that requires...
08:39That's a very clever question.
08:40Yeah.
08:41Because you say you decided to make the movie and then you decided to go to the studio.
08:45And I think that's so generous of you.
08:47So I have any control at all of my choices.
08:51So it was the second turn of the financing that led us to an independent structure.
08:55Which is why it took so long.
08:57So I didn't option the book not to make the movie.
08:59But it did take me quite a long time to get through the rounds of making sure we made
09:03it right.
09:04And of course that meant we had a little less money and a little more stress.
09:07And having to have all those elements in place at the one time to be able to go out and sell
09:11the movie in the way that we had to to finance it.
09:14It actually, it again gave us the freedom that we needed.
09:17Which in the end turned out to be the right thing.
09:19It's that weird thing, isn't it?
09:20That everything ends up snowballing and you think that was horrible and that was horrible.
09:24But actually it all made for the right movie in the end.
09:27Yeah.
09:28Amy, you said something really interesting.
09:29I did.
09:30Yeah.
09:31When you read the Challenger screenplay, the quote is that it was very rare that commercial
09:38movies are about adult relationships and about sex.
09:42And I was so interested by that because there's been a lot of talk just generally among movie
09:46fans, among the industry about a lack of sex in modern movies, especially compared to cinema
09:52of the 70s, 80s and 90s.
09:54But I'm wondering how did you know you could get the script made knowing that?
10:01Hiring Luca to direct the movie.
10:03I knew that he knows how to make movies about people and he knows how to make movies about
10:10people's bodies and how people being free with their bodies and who they are.
10:16And because the movie is about athletes, it was really important to him that they treated
10:24themselves in the way they walked and the way they looked, the way that athletes do.
10:29And what I liked about the movie is it was a really modern story.
10:33It was a really unjudgmental story about how people love each other.
10:40The different ways that people love each other in the modern world that where they're allowed
10:45to and there's no there's no judgment and he has no judgment about things like that.
10:51And it really was him that made it a movie that it became.
10:58When you were taking it out to find potential studio partners, did you all hear any pushback
11:05about the amount of sex?
11:07No, because nobody knew how much sex Luca was going to put in the movie until we made it.
11:13The real pushback that we got was about the ending.
11:16That was like everyone we talked to is like, well, who won?
11:19Yeah.
11:20We're like, well, no one won.
11:21That wasn't the point of the movie.
11:23It wasn't about tennis.
11:24What are you talking about?
11:27And that was the thing that people, let's be honest, my first question to the writer
11:32when I read it was who won?
11:34So I'm a big liar.
11:37But then I got really confident about saying, well, it's just ambiguous.
11:43It's up to interpretation.
11:44Yeah.
11:45Yeah.
11:46Because the movie is about the thing that you fear the most, the thing that you desperately
11:54hope will never fucking happen.
11:58And then it happens and you survive it.
12:02And I thought that was, that really moved me.
12:06Yeah.
12:07Yeah.
12:08Samantha, you and your filmmaking team consulted with sex workers ahead of making Aurora.
12:15Oh, yeah.
12:16She has a bunch of sex.
12:17Yeah.
12:18Yeah.
12:19Yeah.
12:20She's just all over that.
12:21Yeah.
12:22I got it.
12:23I am wondering, what did that outreach look like and how did that consultation, how did
12:30those relationships ultimately inform what the movie became?
12:34Oh, it's everything because number one to the movies is authenticity.
12:44And I think the luxury that we do have is, I mean, I'm super lucky because in the situation
12:52that I'm in, I get to work with my partner and everything.
12:55And so that's pre-development.
12:58That's everything.
12:59And so working with consultants started from the very, very beginning.
13:05And then when we were in New York, because of the authenticity, Sean doesn't, because
13:12we cast two.
13:13So I was calling around to find real dancers instead of people pretending to be dancers.
13:21Yeah.
13:22And it was interesting because everyone involved ended up kind of being a, Sean is very collaborative.
13:30So if someone thinks that something is wrong or misrepresented, he's very clear about,
13:33hey, I want you to speak up because that's just the way that we work.
13:38We like it when people speak up and say, this is not how it is.
13:42It's more like this.
13:43And then there's a conversation and we switch it.
13:45I remember looking for the dancers.
13:48I had a consultant who would even connect me with as many dancers as possible.
13:52And it was interesting because some of them would say, oh my gosh, I really want to be
13:57a part of this because this is very similar to something that actually happened to me
14:01or this happened to a friend of mine.
14:02So then that made us know that we were being authentic in certain ways or on the right
14:08track.
14:09And then that informed certain parts of the story to be explored more.
14:13Monique, you also have people who have these lived experiences in your movie.
14:18And there's so much talk about the importance of physical safety on set, but it's also important
14:24to maintain a sense, I can imagine, of mental and emotional safety.
14:28And a lot of your cast for Sing Sing were formerly incarcerated performers and you were
14:34shooting in prison.
14:36Was that something that you were talking with them beforehand?
14:39Is it something that you were, you know, that you had in mind heading into production?
14:44And if so, what were those conversations like with your cast?
14:47Yeah.
14:48So that was, you know, the casting approach was something that we knew from the start
14:52that we wanted to work with professional actors and with folks from the community from
14:58this program and find that alchemy.
15:01You know, Greg was really interested in that and so am I.
15:04And so once we knew that we were going to shoot in a decommissioned prison, which, you
15:08know, we didn't have money to, you know, build a set or build a prison set, but also the
15:12movie was about, it was really about, again, similarly, like the authenticity and the truth
15:18of it and the truth of these institutions that are all around us.
15:21And so my very first thought was, okay, well, we don't want to re-traumatize our cast.
15:27You know, these men who are putting themselves out there, they're being vulnerable for us.
15:32They're really trusting us.
15:34And I knew that it was a big responsibility for us as filmmakers to take care of them
15:40as much as possible.
15:42So I said, how can we create a safe space for them to feel, because we don't know what's
15:46going to come up.
15:47Some of them hadn't returned to prison.
15:49Some of them, you know, they talked about how they don't even wear the color green because
15:54of the experience of putting greens back on would be traumatizing.
15:59So I started talking to a number of therapists and eventually found a therapist that had
16:05volunteered at Sing Sing before and knew a lot of the alumni cast.
16:10So, you know, we talked and we said what, you know, he said, you know, we don't, we
16:14don't know what could happen.
16:15And also, you know, it's a very masculine thing to really bury your feelings.
16:21So we invited him to set to be a resource and ultimately realized that our cast wasn't
16:28necessarily engaging with therapy in a traditional sense.
16:32But they shared with us that there were, you know, moments of catharsis, you know, I think
16:35that because they were all kind of coming together, it was almost like the movie was
16:39a reunion of this program, in a sense, so that there was a, you know, support system
16:47between a lot of the cast as well.
16:49And some of our cast said, you know, the importance of sharing the story with the world, you know,
16:53really surpassed any sort of apprehension they had around going back into prison.
16:58May I ask a good question?
16:59Yeah, please.
17:00Did you have to put kind of aftercare in the sense of all the people that you engaged with
17:03on those two films who were from another world, not the film world?
17:08Have you continued to support them?
17:10Is that something that you've had to engage with?
17:11Yeah, I mean, I think that the journey of the film is still ongoing even to this day.
17:17And so we're very much in touch and close and always kind of checking in with each other.
17:23Divine G, the real Divine G who Coleman plays in the movie, he calls everyone all the time.
17:28Like everyone calls each other and we try to have group gatherings beyond, you know,
17:33the screenings that we've been having.
17:35Brilliant.
17:36That's brilliant.
17:37Yeah.
17:39I mean, it's you, you really, after so much time and after so many people's generosity,
17:45we are so appreciative.
17:46So we do keep in touch.
17:48I mean, for every film, there are people from the Florida Project, like everyone, you become
17:54really close as human beings and you're just like, I'm not, I'm not coming in and taking
17:59whatever and jumping out.
18:01It's like, you keep going.
18:03You care about them.
18:04Yeah, that's wonderful.
18:05You become a family in a way.
18:07Yeah.
18:08It's not, it's not a curtain down situation.
18:10It's an ongoing conversation, it sounds like.
18:13Exactly.
18:14And we've talked about original productions, but there is, there is such difficulty into
18:20stepping back into another world.
18:23Lucy, you were diving into the world of Gladiator, you know, some two decades after the original
18:29film came out and it won Best Picture, you know, people have an experience with it.
18:34I'm wondering when you were heading into production, what were you most anticipatory
18:39of when it came to stepping back into the world of such a well-known movie?
18:46I think everybody was pretty scared.
18:48That's partly why it took 25 years.
18:52There was no version in which anybody wanted to rush a sequel because they were worried
18:57about seeming like a money grab for something.
19:00My husband who produced the movie, they killed off the two leads, which is if you're trying
19:05to make a sequel, it's not probably the first, not the biggest thing to do.
19:10And two of the other main actors had actually died.
19:13One died during the shooting, Oliver Reed.
19:15So that was, Mary was around for that.
19:17That was...
19:18I was a young executive.
19:19They advocated for that project.
19:20It was one of the first things I really fought for.
19:23A long history.
19:26But Doug called me on a Sunday to tell me that.
19:28I'll never forget that call.
19:30He won't either.
19:31It was a $90 million insurance claim.
19:34Yeah.
19:35They had a brilliant solution.
19:36It's a good example of producing.
19:37They did have a brilliant solution.
19:38A face replacement.
19:39At first, the insurance company said that Ridley would have to go back and shoot the
19:43whole movie, and it already shot more than half of it.
19:46And the idea for a director to have to go back and shoot, go back to Malta, go back
19:50to Morocco, reshoot the whole movie, they did come up with a great idea, which is a
19:55little CGI and a little bit of a different ending, but...
20:01It was, I would say, a challenge for everybody.
20:05Interestingly enough, Ridley, who I can't say enough good things about when you talk
20:09about a director.
20:11You can do everything right as a producer, but if you don't have a good director...
20:14You got nothing.
20:15You're screwed.
20:16You can plug a lot of holes, but he has the whole movie in his head.
20:23He storyboards the whole movie long before we even have a finished script, as we're sitting
20:27in story meetings, which we did for almost two years, trying to come up with a story
20:31that we thought was worthy, and a character that we thought would be worthy.
20:37And we gave him a birthday party for his 86th birthday, halfway through shooting, and we
20:43looked around the room, and all of the head of departments were the same ones.
20:50So, that's the loyalty that he had.
20:53The editor was different, but she didn't come to the party.
20:55So it doesn't count.
20:57And we had a female stunt coordinator, which was pretty great, who wasn't on the original
21:04movie, but we basically had all the same people, and everybody felt the same pressure.
21:10The cast was different, except for two people, but the pressure of walking onto the fully
21:17built Coliseum again, for people, and even people that had only seen the movie and not
21:24worked on the first one, was a lot of pressure.
21:28So they all felt they had to top themselves, and they were all pros, and they did, and
21:35they followed a fearless leader, and we found in our new cast of Pedro and Denzel and Paul,
21:44we were, and Fred Hechinger and Joe Quinn, we found the perfect cast.
21:50We all love each other, and they love each other, and they love Ridley.
21:54It was one of those things that, it was a really hard movie to shoot.
21:58It was a much harder movie to have to stop shooting.
22:01We had to close down for four months, which when I hear about your movies, and I think
22:06about the waste that we had to incur to shut down and leave a full-size Coliseum, 14 blocks
22:14of ancient Rome, 2,000 extras, costumes, props, 450 hotel rooms for the crew, and say goodbye
22:26one day to 2,000 people on the set, the next day dark.
22:32And I think about what it takes to do the movies that you do, and how much it costs
22:36just to rent the scaffolding to hold up the Coliseum for an extra four months.
22:41And Paul Mescal had to work out for the entire four months, because his body would have changed
22:46and we never knew when we were going back.
22:49So the not shooting was as hard as the shooting in our case.
22:57And working out for four months.
22:59Luckily he likes it.
23:00Good for him.
23:01It looks great.
23:02We were lucky.
23:03I say the real reason why it took so long is we had to wait for Paul to be born.
23:11And Mary, you have a similar situation where you were going back into a world for Dune
23:17Part 2, of course not 25 years, 25 years after I was reading, where you were.
23:23Right away almost, yeah.
23:24Yeah, right away you were beginning soft prep.
23:27I am wondering, when you have that, such a truncated period, what are you bringing
23:34from that first experience to the second experience of making the second movie?
23:38Do you have time to really evaluate and say, okay, this is what we can do better.
23:43This is what we can do differently as compared to the first one.
23:47How were those conversations, if they existed?
23:50First Denis goes back to, I mean, we are nothing without the writers, the directors, the talent,
23:54but he was very smart and said when we began the journey, we have to take this book, Frank
24:00Herbert's brilliant book, and split it into two parts because to tell it all in one film
24:06would be very difficult.
24:07So we sort of laughed through the first one and said, well, this is the hard part, really
24:11setting the table for what's to come.
24:14And then realizing for the rest of the book, it's like, okay, right now it's even more
24:19world building, going deeper, and suddenly realizing, okay, this level of difficulty
24:23now in sort of raising the stakes and taking these characters that we've introduced, because
24:28that's the thing about Denis, he's a really unique director in that he can tell, he works
24:34as successfully as an intimate character director as he does as somebody working and painting
24:39on a very large canvas.
24:40So he effortlessly is able to toggle back and forth between the two.
24:46And a similar theme here, so much of it is authenticity.
24:50Because of what I think Frank Herbert gave us, and was so much a meditation on power
24:55and human dynamics and those relationships, it's grounding everything, even though you're
25:00building something that is fictitious, it's grounded in real characters and real themes.
25:07So it's playing that out through.
25:09And the second one was really very much about going into that world.
25:12And you're touching on something that you also brought up with Ridley, and you said
25:17in an interview, which I found fascinating, where it's very easy to, or it's easier to
25:22work with a director who has a clarity of vision.
25:24Absolutely.
25:25I am one.
25:26Well, this is my question for everyone, is, you know, if you're working with a filmmaker
25:32who doesn't necessarily have that clarity, if you've ever come across that, how do you,
25:39is there a world where you can help them reach that?
25:42Yeah, hopefully they have other strengths.
25:43I mean, that's, I think all of us around the table have the luxury of working with some
25:47of the best filmmakers working, but then also I think it's equally as exciting to support
25:52new filmmakers, you know, and hopefully, you know, their discernible talents align with
25:58what the, you know, the needs of the movie are.
26:01But that's part of what's exciting is that you can support them in all the experiences
26:04you've had, you know, to help take their talent, but channel the experience they haven't yet
26:09had to help them sort of see the icebergs in the water and to help, you know, help them
26:14build that vision.
26:15But yes, I will always vote for, get behind the strong vision and support that, you know,
26:20be the sounding board for that and the guardian of that, always, yes.
26:24It's nice to have a map to know where you're going.
26:26I agree, but there are some directors who find their ideas as they're going.
26:35You know, I know that's not true of Denis, I know that's not true of Ed, I know that's
26:40not true of Ridley, I don't know.
26:44You'd have to tell me.
26:48But then there are other kinds of directors who find it as they're going and that works
26:55too.
26:56It's harder.
26:57Well, it's the best of both worlds, you hope, you hope that you can be prepared enough where
27:01you can go out there and you can do what, you know, what the director has planned and
27:05then you discover things.
27:06Yeah.
27:07Because that's the truth.
27:08Yeah.
27:09In ways that you can't always predict.
27:10Yeah.
27:11And then if you can, those are the best productions, I feel like, where you can create an environment
27:15where people can do what's planned, but also experiment, explore.
27:20And some of the best things in movies come from things that weren't planned.
27:23Yeah, but do you think people can make something that isn't them?
27:27I mean, it's so interesting to me that films usually are who's made them.
27:31Well, that's one of the first questions, right?
27:33We all ask directors, which is, you know, what is their reason for being, why are they
27:36making this movie and what is at the core for them, right?
27:39And understanding that DNA.
27:42And it may be disguised as something else, you know, or whatever it is within the genre.
27:46But hopefully they have, if they don't, that's a good red flag.
27:49Yeah.
27:50You know, if there's not really a reason or they don't know why they're making the movie.
27:54I think you're right.
27:55It's the meeting of a person with material.
27:58And sometimes that material comes from inside them.
28:00Sometimes it's something that you've given them.
28:02But actually it's the meeting of them with that story that makes something special or
28:05not really, doesn't it?
28:06Yeah, I think with Greg too, he was, he kind of knew, I think you have to understand the
28:12core.
28:13If you don't, it's really hard to find your way.
28:16And from there you blossom.
28:17And I think for him, I really understood the vision, but within that vision was this level
28:23of flexibility of like, you know, bring in these real people and their stories, their
28:28lived experience, be flexible around that.
28:30So there were certain areas of the draft when we had a draft that were just like, you
28:35know, they talk about their perfect place.
28:37Like it wasn't written in the script.
28:39And so knowing that there was space for life to come in to the film, but then we knew that
28:45we would kind of go in that direction.
28:47But definitely, I think.
28:48That's where inspiration can come from.
28:49Yeah, exactly.
28:50Yeah.
28:51You have to be comfortable with that process when you don't know the answer and they don't
28:56know the answer and it's still going on.
28:59Yeah.
29:00So you have to, like, be comfortable in the exploration, too.
29:06And sometimes that's really hard.
29:08I think that's key, though.
29:09I think a lot of this job is about being able to be comfortable in the uncomfortable.
29:15Yeah.
29:16And if you're not equipped for that, it's a very difficult job because I think to bring
29:20that energy, even when you're like, OK, we're at a cliff, we're at a precipice where this
29:24isn't working, you know, it's figuring out how to break through that and not bring the
29:29that energy in a way, like, if you're freaking out, it's going to freak everybody else out,
29:33you know?
29:34So even if you're really sweating it, you know, and knowing that you're in trouble,
29:38you've got to stay focused, figure out how you're going to get to the other side of it.
29:41I always say that, I don't know about you guys, but usually a film will be a moth before
29:46it's a butterfly.
29:47You know, when you're going through that phase, you have to remind yourself because you can
29:54be really sweating.
29:55You're like, oh, gosh, you know, we got to get through this.
29:57But if you start to panic, you know, that's when fear, I'll quote Dune, fear is the mind
30:01killer.
30:02You know, we're seeing a lot of that in the business right now.
30:05You know, so many people are driven by fear right now that, like, everyone's jumping ship.
30:08And that's one thing as a producer, you can never jump ship because if you panic, I think
30:12you start to make fear-based decisions, you know, knee-jerk decisions.
30:16And you just got to, you got to ride through the storm.
30:18You know, that's what I've learned.
30:20And especially now in this environment, it's just, you're like, oh, they just went out
30:23the door.
30:24Whoops, they're right off the side of the boat, you know?
30:26And you've just got to, while being honest, you know, and objective, stay the course to
30:31get through.
30:32And you will break through, you know?
30:33Not every film turns out the way that you want it to.
30:35Obviously, if we're not more right than wrong, we don't get to keep doing what we're doing.
30:39But that's the most damaging, I think, is when the producer starts panicking.
30:44I also think the opportunity for serendipity and to pivot is a huge part of our job and
30:51the director's job.
30:54On Gatsby, we all were looking forward to shooting the scene where Gatsby beats Daisy
30:58since it's a big part of the movie.
31:01And we drove two hours to our location, and it was pouring rain for the entire day.
31:06So we couldn't shoot.
31:07So we went back again, leaving trucks stuck in the mud.
31:11I mean, it was that kind of rain.
31:13We went back again, and it was pouring again.
31:16The third time we said, we'll shoot it in the rain.
31:20And it was not how it was in the book, but it was a great scene.
31:23Leo comes drenched in rain.
31:26That's what we had.
31:27And that's what we used.
31:28So I think part of it is...
31:30And I think it's a really fun problem-solving part, but you're right, it's scary.
31:36I also think the best producers and the best directors try to get the best from whoever
31:42they have.
31:43And so they listen to...
31:44It's a big part of your job.
31:45I think that with newer directors, at least in my experience, and there's some that are
31:49just geniuses out of the box, and God bless them.
31:53But some of them want to control it too much.
31:56And you think, listen to the DP.
31:59Don't do anything you don't want to do, but listen and learn.
32:03Listen to the production designer.
32:05The costumer can help you figure out so many things about the character that you never
32:10thought of.
32:11And for me, the biggest pleasure is when I can say, in a million years, I could have
32:17never thought of that.
32:20That's where you know you're in the right place at the right time, when the other people
32:25are bringing things that nobody else could have done, and even the director can't have
32:29all of it in his head, her head, her head.
32:33But even being open to that serendipity can make things even better than you ever imagined.
32:37Yeah.
32:38It can turn your negative into a positive.
32:39How many times does that happen?
32:40Like, this person's really funny.
32:41Yeah.
32:42Let me give them more to do.
32:44A lot of stuff like that.
32:45So it's thinking on your feet.
32:47I've had trucks stuck in mud.
32:49Revenant.
32:50Yes.
32:51Really, that is.
32:52And you pivot.
32:53A lot of mud.
32:54Filmmaking is 90% mud.
32:55Some of those trucks, I think, are still there.
33:00Left them.
33:01Tessa and Lucy, I love that both of you recreated Rome in your movies, but in very different
33:08ways.
33:09That's how similar we are.
33:11You have these massive set pieces in this movie.
33:13You have the Vatican.
33:14You have the Sistine Chapel.
33:15You have a Colosseum.
33:16When you are looking at the screenplay for the first time, when you see those massive
33:23set pieces, are you just going, oh my gosh, how am I going to do this, or does your mind
33:28immediately go into problem-solving mode?
33:31It's the honest truth.
33:32You know, reading the screenplay is for me always about story and character, and it was
33:36only once Edward started that, you know, casting and problems and, you know, the actual practicalities
33:43of how Rome would look.
33:45And then in the end, it was about how like Rome, he wanted as much of it to feel like,
33:51whilst also being able to bring a really contemporary feel against it, so that there was contrast,
33:55a kind of jagged contrast to the beauty that the modern kept hitting the ancient.
34:01And so what he did with Susie Davis, our production designer and a most wonderful location manager,
34:05we had the most amazing Italian crew, but Roberto was our location manager, and they
34:09pieced together this kind of amazing patchwork that was the Vatican of mostly Roman locations
34:14a little bit out of Naples.
34:16And then this set that was built at Cinecitta.
34:19Lucy, what about for you?
34:21Well, luckily, we had a movie that people already liked.
34:25So it was one of the few times, Mary heard me say this, where the studio wanted to make
34:29the movie.
34:30Yeah, that is fair.
34:35But we did have a lot of trouble holding on to some of the big action pieces, which obviously
34:41are part of why people see the movie, and part of it is the intimate, personal drama.
34:47And we always, whenever the studio got a little rough with us, we would say, well, we can
34:50always take out the naval battle.
34:52Yeah, sure.
34:53We know one way to save money.
34:56And they're like, no, no, no.
34:59And I said, well, then what about the rhino?
35:01I go, yeah, we could take out the rhino, because we couldn't shoot the rhino the first time
35:05because you couldn't, it was too expensive to do the CGI then.
35:10And so Doug called the rhino wrangler, such as it is, and said, well, what about bringing
35:18a real rhino?
35:19And he said, well, they're not that trainable.
35:21Once they start to run, they can't stop.
35:23So it was like a few deaths.
35:26Okay.
35:27We'll save the rhino for later.
35:31But our sets took so many months to build that I keep being embarrassed about our costs
35:40compared to the beautiful movies that you guys make for so much less.
35:44But it did take months to build it.
35:47And so our production designer is in another country just building away to his heart's
35:54content and nobody was there supervising.
35:57The first time when we went, we thought, oh my God, it's a little bigger.
36:00It's a little bigger than we thought.
36:05But that was also a privilege, because we did have the feeling you can't help but compare
36:13the end of Rome, which is our story starts at the beginning of the decline.
36:19And certain bells are ringing in contemporary life.
36:24Oh, really?
36:26We had a feeling that there may never be another build like this again.
36:31So we felt the privilege of the old-fashioned way of making a movie where you could build
36:36it, because now mostly so much is CGI, and we did do CGI enhancements, plenty of them,
36:41but we did actually step into the Colosseum and every single person felt it when we did
36:47it.
36:48Dean Tavalares told a story.
36:50I worked for Francis Coppola for a few years when he had the little studio Zoetrope in
36:54Los Angeles, and he told a story about how he put in hardwood floors in The Godfather,
37:02and then they decided to put carpet on top of the hardwood floors, and then somebody
37:06yelled at him and said, how could you put hardwood floors and then waste the money and
37:10put carpet on top?
37:11And he answered, the actors will act better knowing that there's hardwood underneath that
37:18carpet.
37:19And then he paused and said, and they did.
37:23I love that, and I believe it.
37:25I had nothing to do with that story, but I thought I'd share it.
37:28It's incredible.
37:29It is interesting talking about this tactile experience of being on set.
37:34Mary, I know Denis likes being a tactile filmmaker, doing things practically.
37:39When it comes to producing that, what does that entail?
37:44I know this movie, you were in the desert a lot more for part two than you just hate
37:49sand now.
37:51You know what, it was inspiring, but he was right.
37:53There was something he was also very clear about from the start, to really put boots
37:57on the ground, and nature and humans' relationship to nature is a big part of what the movie
38:04is, and it's impossible to replicate that.
38:06It was actually really inspiring and humbling, getting up in the morning and seeing the sunrise,
38:11and we were all in very good shape, hiking in the dunes, it was wonderful.
38:16Tremendous DP, Greg Frazier, and dealing with the elements in that regard.
38:20Knock on wood, we got very lucky, we didn't have a big sandstorm, we were able to get
38:24through it.
38:25The movie gods were in our favor.
38:27We did it, obviously, later in the year, just for heat, and for the actors wearing these
38:32suits and it was still very hot.
38:35But that was, again, it goes back to understanding, I think, the director's vision, the DNA of
38:40the film.
38:41You said a little bit, Amy, I think that's one of the key things as a producer, is to
38:44be able to, in collaboration with the director, what is the DNA of the movie?
38:50What are the key things that if we don't do this, obviously you want to do everything
38:53to the best of its ability, but what are the things that if we don't deliver on really,
38:58the film's not going to work, the story's not going to work?
39:01And being mindful of those things, because at the end of the day, there's a limitation.
39:05I've worked on films of small scale, big scale, there's never enough money.
39:11Obviously there's a lot more money on bigger films, but you're spending a lot more money
39:14too, and trying to be really cost conscious, not diminishing returns, but mindful of where
39:19you're going to put that money.
39:21So it's really, you've got to understand, what is the story we're telling?
39:26Where do we really need to spend the money here?
39:28Where can we find other ways to discover new people, bring more people up?
39:33And that's important.
39:34And those are the things to always be mindful of, because otherwise it's easy to get away
39:38from you, right?
39:39Great directors are always very mindful of that, but you've got to make sure you're figuring
39:43out constantly how to support them in doing that, and I find that directors aren't continually
39:48pushing.
39:49I like that tension, where they're, I want to do it again, or I've got to keep pushing,
39:52I've got to keep pushing, and then working with them to figure out, it's like, okay,
39:57now we've got to move on to this.
39:58But figuring out how to really push the boundaries, discover new things, and make sure you're
40:02delivering on what the essence and the DNA of the film is.
40:05Otherwise I don't think you really have a shot of making something great.
40:09And that's hard.
40:10It's a lot harder than it seems.
40:11If it were easy, every film would be great.
40:13If filmmaking were easy, we'd see a lot, the quality of the films would be a lot better.
40:18It's tough, especially in this environment.
40:21Yeah, it's that healthy tension can breed something beautiful.
40:24That's something Tony Garnett used to say.
40:27Tony Garnett used to say, you have to be a sort of a loving challenger.
40:32And it was that idea that you put your arm around your project, and that gave you the
40:36right, you say, look, I love this, and I'm completely behind you, and everything you
40:40want is what I want to achieve, and I'm going to be really tough.
40:43And he did that.
40:44Yeah, he did.
40:45He did, and I think it's interesting what you say, and also what Mary said, because
40:49I think so much of the job of being a producer, because the days are so hard.
40:55Once you, you know, six o'clock and you're starting, like, there's a million things that
41:00are happening.
41:01And even the director can get a little lost in just getting the day.
41:05So it feels to me like, at least for myself, one of the things that I find helpful is to
41:13talk to the director about what it was they meant.
41:16Right?
41:17What was it that you wanted this to be?
41:20And to try to say, remember the conversation we had when this was what that scene was about.
41:26Right?
41:27Because it can be about a lot of other things when you get on the set, rather than what
41:31it's actually about.
41:34Getting what it's about is actually what you want to get.
41:37You have nothing.
41:38Denise is a writer-director.
41:39Phil McGrath is a writer-director.
41:42Helps a lot.
41:43Yeah, the most disrespected people on the movie are the people that actually are the best.
41:47At that script, never heard a movie.
41:50That feels like a t-shirt.
41:52Yeah.
41:53Could I also just add, Lucy, I think that, yeah, whether it's $1 million or $5 million
41:59or $10 million or $300 million.
42:02There are always issues.
42:05We may not have had as much money as Gladiator, but I never had to get a rhinoceros.
42:11Or build a Colosseum.
42:14You know, it's all relative.
42:17And any movie is impossible.
42:20It's a miracle.
42:22Of course it's a miracle to even get a movie made.
42:24Exactly.
42:25Forget it.
42:26Get it off the ground.
42:27You're right.
42:28That's one of the biggest mistakes you can make.
42:30It's a miracle.
42:31It's a miracle.
42:32And it's a miracle that we better be able to continue.
42:35Because people have to go to the theaters and see these movies.
42:39And we have to make them good enough that they don't say, well, I don't see when I want to watch.
42:45And that's...
42:47But that goes back to turning a negative into a positive, right?
42:50And so challenging everybody to do their best work.
42:52Because I think as an industry, we got away with it for a long time.
42:56I also think you can almost do anything now with the effects.
43:02And special effects.
43:04The rhino was both.
43:06But if you don't protect your actors so that they can be real characters that you can empathize with and care about.
43:13You're going to have a soulless movie.
43:15And when directors are lost, sometimes they overdo the production design.
43:20Or they focus on the wrong thing.
43:23They lost the DNA.
43:25I'm stealing that from all of you guys.
43:28But...
43:29Soulless is a good word.
43:30Yeah.
43:31So I think that doing the spectacle and protecting the actors and making them your partners.
43:38And also, casting is so important.
43:41If you get the right actor, you're watching something that's different and better and luckier than even what was on the page.
43:49Then you say, I had the right career.
43:51I made the right choice.
43:52I love my work.
43:55Speaking of protecting actors.
43:58Monique, I would be remiss without speaking about Sing Sing's financing structure.
44:05Which I find so interesting.
44:11When you first told me about it, I fell in love with it.
44:14I found it to be incredible.
44:15But everyone on Sing Sing's set, from the PA to the star, were all paid the same salary.
44:22And then everyone was given equity in the film.
44:25Correct me if I'm wrong.
44:27I'm wondering, did you notice that structure affect behavior on set?
44:33And ultimately, why did you all decide to do that?
44:35Yeah.
44:36So the financing structure was something that Greg and Clint brought to me when they pitched me the movie.
44:41Because they had done it on their previous film, Jockey.
44:44And they said, we tried this model.
44:46We want to scale it up.
44:47Not much bigger.
44:49We're still on an indie budget.
44:51But with a 50-person crew.
44:52And do you think you can help us figure out how to do it?
44:55And I thought it was the right way.
44:58Just intuitively, I was like, this is the right way to do this.
45:01Because of the way we were building it as a community.
45:05And how much we were trying to create a space for exchange with the community.
45:11And so, yeah, the structure is that everyone, there's pay parity across the board.
45:16So from Coleman to the PA, through post, everyone gets paid the same rate.
45:23And we had SAG as our union.
45:27So we used the SAG rate for the budget level we were on.
45:30And it's the same daily or weekly rate.
45:32So everyone gets the same.
45:34And then everyone participates in the back end.
45:37And based on the period of time that they work on the film, the phase of the film.
45:42So, you know, the value proposition is that everyone has the same inherent value.
45:47The only variable is time.
45:49And we felt like that was the way to really kind of, you know, talking about the DNA.
45:56Really build the DNA in such a way that everyone felt like they weren't an employee, but they were a stakeholder.
46:02That's so clever.
46:04Yeah, because it's a small film.
46:06It's a small film.
46:07And also, you know, doing pay parity in that way for an indie film is just a way also to, the budget is lowered.
46:12Yeah, negative into a positive.
46:14Yeah, the budget is lowered.
46:16And also everyone knows they're going to have to really do the tank.
46:19Because we still have, you know, a 50-person crew is not a very large crew either.
46:22And so everyone is still, you know, going beyond to get the film done.
46:27But then they're also participating if the film is successful.
46:32Yeah, and one thing we learned too was that, yeah, it created that culture.
46:37It's like I think as producers we're always trying to nurture and create a culture on set that can bring out the best of everyone.
46:43Everyone's work.
46:44And that everyone can feel like they have ownership in some way of the story.
46:48And also creating a culture of exchange.
46:51Like Greg was very much like, I want to erase the line.
46:54He's like, I don't even want to see a budget with above the line and below the line.
46:57He's like, change the, you know, change the budget.
46:59I don't want to see above the line.
47:01He was like, there's no hierarchy here.
47:03I want everything to be, I want there to be an exchange between the cast and the department heads.
47:09That's amazing.
47:10And everything.
47:11But also kind of building it, yeah, building the financing with that in mind I think helped everyone come on board.
47:18And we found that people leaned into it.
47:20Also as a producer, it's like there's no negotiating.
47:24So we're like, it's selfish.
47:27It is what it is.
47:29Selfishly.
47:30Do what you want.
47:31And also it's just like, if you can't do it, it's okay.
47:34It's not for you.
47:35But then the people who wanted to do it leaned into it.
47:37Bravo.
47:38Bravo to you, bravo.
47:39It's like a barrier to entry at that point where you're like, okay, these people who are buying in.
47:44Yeah.
47:45And thankfully we were fortunate enough to sell the film such that we were able to issue checks to over 90 artists in the movie.
47:52That's so great.
47:53Yeah.
47:54Yay.
47:55Amazing.
47:57We have to change our financing structure to make our business functional, I think.
48:03Truly, because I think we won't be getting the most talented people attracted to it anymore if they feel like they're working for the man.
48:10And they're not working for their own work.
48:15And they're not compensated for their work, for getting whatever stupid high salaries some people get.
48:24Owners of companies are raking in much more, and I think until we, which is not a popular opinion among the people that finance movies,
48:33but until people can participate more, I think we will have a brain drain of talent that says,
48:40I don't want to work as a paid salary person for somebody else.
48:46I'm entrepreneurial.
48:48I'm an artist.
48:49It's the opposite of what all the, I'm about to say all the streaming companies have done because they pay you all this money up front.
48:57Right.
48:58And it was, I think if people could bet on the movie and do more what you're talking about, I think people work differently.
49:09I speak to a lot of young producers who talk about the difficulty of being in the space,
49:16where there's a lot of efforts happening, whether it's ensuring health care in between projects,
49:21or speaking to things about development fees.
49:24I'm wondering for you all as very successful producers in the space,
49:29what needs to happen in order to create a producing field as a sustainable profession?
49:40Yeah.
49:41Good question.
49:42Can you guys fix Hollywood?
49:46I was president of the Producers Guild for four years, and you cannot make a living as an entry-level producer right now,
49:54or as a struggling director waiting for your first movie.
49:59And the question is a question that everyone should be asking.
50:06The answer is we have to figure out a way to have people be able to live,
50:13except if their parents are paying for their apartment.
50:16That's not a way to have a healthy business.
50:19But it's the same thing that's going on in our country.
50:21The divide between people is so severe.
50:26Yes.
50:27And untenable.
50:29Yeah, I feel like that was one of my first questions coming into producing.
50:32I went to the Sundance Producing Lab, and my first question was like,
50:34so how is this sustainable?
50:36Yeah.
50:37Can someone please share with me?
50:39Because also the way I like to work is the development period can take years,
50:43but it's never.
50:45It does take years.
50:47You're working with a writer-director, and it's like maybe the idea is just a tiny little idea,
50:51and it's starting, and over time you build and build and build.
50:54And I think it's worth it.
50:56And especially in the way that I've made my previous films,
50:59you build relationships with the community.
51:01That takes time.
51:02So it's a really crucial part of the process, but it's not funded.
51:06So then you're kind of working.
51:08So I'm like, okay, I just joined another project,
51:10and I'm basically signing on to develop the project for who knows how long unpaid.
51:16And that was the impetus for me for joining Producers Union,
51:21which was started by Rebecca Green, and then eventually Producers United,
51:25because it's like we need a collective where we're all working to figure out
51:29how to make this more sustainable, how to talk to studios, how to talk to agents,
51:33and figure out how to create some sort of baseline standards of health care,
51:39wage minimums, ways for people to.
51:41Because also if you're not supported in that way,
51:45it also propels this structure of people not really having a diverse group of talent,
51:54and women, and people who can support their lives and also put energy into the work.
51:59Or making the wrong things.
52:01Yeah.
52:02The UK has a little advantage in that it's always had.
52:05Sorry, I don't want to interrupt, but it's had a bit of public money.
52:09And that public money has not necessarily paid producers.
52:12There's no such thing as a salary if you're developing a film for five years.
52:16But it has allowed some.
52:18Five years is short.
52:19Yeah, no, I know.
52:20I was taking it as a really happy moment.
52:22But it has made a difference that the public television companies,
52:25so Channel 4 and the BBC, and then now the BFI, but was British Screen,
52:31are committed to some form of sustainable investment in new filmmakers, producers.
52:39And so a little bit of overhead for young production companies.
52:42And that has made a difference.
52:44It's sort of shown that there's an intent for the diversity that you're talking about,
52:47for the inclusion of people who couldn't ever imagine a career in film might be possible.
52:52And I just think thinking that great art comes from risk,
52:56which is what we all believe, means that the risk money has to be available
53:00so that sometimes it can burst into the market.
53:02And America doesn't have that.
53:05We have guns instead.
53:08I'm so sorry.
53:09Well, for us it was different too because what we tried to do,
53:12we didn't have a big budget and we tried to put all of the money on the screen.
53:17And when we came to a situation where we needed a little bit more money,
53:22the first thing that went was me and Alex Coco, my other producer.
53:26Always.
53:27We had a cut in ours and we were like, okay, I don't have children.
53:32And he just had a baby.
53:35And I think it's something that we do this because we love it.
53:38We put everything into it.
53:40Like you said, development, everything.
53:43And sometimes it's hard to say, okay, well, we don't have this,
53:49but these are our babies and we love the art.
53:55And unfortunately sometimes the thing is the finances don't match that.
54:01Next time just say no.
54:07I've thrown in my salary many times as a producer doing it.
54:11It helps if you have a bigger salary to throw in obviously,
54:13but many times on a smaller film I did I paid for some of the pre-production
54:18knowing that there was a risk that it wasn't going to go.
54:21Sometimes you just don't have a choice.
54:25The producers always have to be the first person to cut their film.
54:29Why is it always the first one?
54:31Just another reason why every movie is a little miracle.
54:34For sure.
54:35It's incredible.
54:36And I'm so sad to say this, but we are at our hour.
54:41I know.
54:44I know.
54:45I can't thank you guys enough for joining us.
54:48And congratulations on all of your movies.
54:51They're all incredible.
54:52Thank you so much.