Bruce Lee's in-depth interview at the Pierre Berton Show, originally filmed in 1971, just a couple of years before he passed away. The footage was lost and would not be found and aired again until 1994
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00:00Bruce Lee faces a real dilemma. He's on the verge of stardom in the United States with a projected
00:13TV series on the horizon, but he's just achieved superstardom as a film actor here in Hong Kong. So
00:20what does he choose? The East or the West? It's the kind of problem most budding movie actors would
00:25welcome. It's the Pierre Burton Show, the program that comes to you from the major capitals of the
00:33world. This edition comes to you from Hong Kong. And Pierre's guest is the man who taught karate,
00:39judo, and Chinese boxing to James Garner, Steve McQueen, Lee Marvin, and James Coburn. The newest
00:46Mandarin superstar known in the West for his appearances in Batman, The Green Hornet, Ironside,
00:53and Longstreet. His name is Bruce Lee, and he doesn't even speak Mandarin. And here's Pierre.
00:59Well, how can you play in Mandarin movies if you don't even speak Mandarin? How do you do that?
01:04Well, first of all, I speak only Cantonese. Yeah. So, I mean, there is quite a difference as far
01:12as pronunciation and things like that. So somebody else's voice is used, right? Definitely, definitely.
01:18You just make the words. Doesn't that sound strange when you go to the movies, especially in Hong Kong,
01:23in your own town, and you see yourself with somebody else's voice? Well, not really, you see,
01:27because most of the Mandarin pictures done here are dubbed anyway. They're dubbed anyway? Anyway. I mean,
01:32disregard. I mean, they shoot without sound. So it doesn't, you know, make any difference. Your lips never
01:38quite make the right words, do they? Yeah, well, that's where the difficulty lies, you see. I mean,
01:42in order to, because the Cantonese have a different way of saying things, you know, I mean, different
01:46from the Mandarin. Yeah. So, I have to find, like, something similar to that, and keep a kind of a
01:52feeling going behind that. Something that's matching the Mandarin deal. Like the old silent days, but I gather in the
02:02movies made here, the dialogue is pretty stilted anyway. Yeah, I agree with you. I mean, see, to me,
02:07a motion picture is motion. Yeah. I mean, I mean, you got to keep the dialogue down to the minimum.
02:15Did you go to, did you look at many Mandarin movies before you started playing in the first one? Yes, yes.
02:21What did you think of them when you saw them? Quality-wise, I mean, I have to admit that it's
02:29not quite up to the standard. However, it is growing, and it is getting higher and higher,
02:35and going toward that standard, that what I would term quality. They say the secret of your success
02:42in that movie, The Big Boss, which was such a success here, and rocketed you to stardom in Asia,
02:48was that you did your own fighting. As an expert in the various martial arts in China, what did
02:57you think of the fighting that you saw in the movies that you studied before you became a star?
03:00Well, I mean, definitely in the beginning, I had no intention whatsoever that what I was
03:09practicing, and what I'm still practicing now, would lead to this, to begin with. But martial
03:17art has a very, very deep meaning, as far as my life is concerned, because as an actor, as a martial
03:26artist, as a human being, all these I have learned from martial art. Maybe for our audience who doesn't
03:34know what it means, you might explain exactly what you mean by martial art. Right. Martial art
03:39includes all the combative arts, like karate, or karate, judo, Chinese kung fu, or Chinese boxing,
03:49whatever you call it. All those, you see, like aikido, korean, I can go on and on and on, but it's a
03:55combative form of fighting. I mean, it's not... some of them became sport, but some of them are still
04:03not. I mean, they're used, for instance, kicking to the groin, jacking fingers at the eyes, and things like that.
04:08No wonder you're successful in it. Chinese movies are full of this kind of action anyway. They needed a guy like you.
04:14Violence, man. So you didn't have to use a double when you moved into the martial world here, you did it all
04:20yourself. Can you break five or six pieces of wood with your hand or your foot? I'll probably break my
04:25hand and foot. But tell me a little bit, you set up a school in Hollywood, didn't you, for people like
04:34James Garner and Steve McQueen and the others. Yes. Why would they want to learn Chinese martial
04:40art? Because of a movie role? Not really. Most of them, you see, to me, at least the way that went,
04:48when I teach it, all type of knowledge ultimately means self-knowledge. So therefore, they are coming
04:57in to, I mean, and ask me to teach them not so much of how to defend themselves or how to do
05:05somebody in. Rather, they want to learn to express themselves through some movement, be it anger,
05:12be it determination or whatsoever. So in other words, what I'm saying, therefore, is that he is
05:20paying me to show him in combative form the art of expressing the human body. Which is acting,
05:29in a sense, isn't it? Well... Or it would be useful, too, for an actor to have that. I mean, I might, it might
05:37sound too philosophical, but it's an acting-acting or acting-unacting, if you... You've lost me. I have, right?
05:47So what I'm saying, actually, you see, I mean, it's a combination of both. I mean, here it is the natural
05:53instinct, and here is control. You are to combine the two in harmony. Not, if you have one to the extreme,
06:01you will be very unscientific. If you have another to the extreme, you become, all of a sudden, a mechanical
06:09man, no longer a human being. So you, it is a successful combination of both. So therefore,
06:15it is not only, I mean, so therefore, it's not pure naturalness or unnaturalness. The ideal is
06:23natural naturalness or natural unnaturalness. Ying Yang. You're right, man, that's it.
06:31Yeah, one of your students, James Coburn, played in a movie called Iron Man and Flint,
06:37in which he used karate. Is that what he learned from you? He learned it after. Oh, he went deep.
06:44After he played in Iron Man and Flint. You see, actually, I do not teach, you know, karate, because I do not
06:51believe in styles anymore. I mean, I do not believe that there is such thing as like Chinese
06:58way of fighting, or the Japanese way of fighting, or whatever way of fighting, because unless human
07:06being have three arms and four legs, we will have a different form of fighting. But basically, we have
07:13only two hands and two feet. So styles tends to not only separate man, you know, because they have
07:21their own doctrines, and then the doctrine became the gospel truth, you know, that you cannot change,
07:26you know. But if you do not have styles, if you just say, well, here I am, you know, as a human
07:33being, how can I express myself totally and completely? Now, that way, you won't create a style,
07:42because style is a crystallization, you know. I mean, that way, it's a process of continuing growth.
07:48You talk about Chinese boxing. How does it differ from, say, our kind of boxing? Well, first we use
07:55the feet, and then we use the elbow, and use the thumb. You name it, man. We use it all. You have to, you see,
08:04because, I mean, that is the expression of the human body. I mean, everything. I mean, you know, not just
08:10the hand. And when you're talking about combat, well, I mean, if it is a sport, now you're
08:16talking about something else. You have regulations, you have rules, but when you're talking about
08:20fighting as it is, with no rules, well, then, baby, you better train every part of your body.
08:28And when you do punch, now I'm leaning forward a little bit, hoping not to hurt any camera angle.
08:34I mean, you've got to put the whole hip into it, and snap it, and get all your energy in there,
08:41and make this into a weapon. I don't want to tangle you in any darker light than that right now.
08:46You came at me pretty fast there. What is the difference between Chinese boxing and what we
08:52see these young men doing at eight o'clock every morning on the rooftops, in parks, called shadow
08:56boxing, which they're always... Well, actually, you see, that is part of Chinese boxing. It is. There are so
09:03many schools. Everybody here seems to be, you know, going like this all the time. Well, that's
09:09good. I mean, I mean, I'm very glad. I'm very glad to see that, because at least somebody is
09:16caring for their own body, right? Yeah. I mean, that's a good sign. Well, it's a kind of a slow
09:22form of exercise, which is called Tai Chi Quan. I'm speaking Mandarin just now. Yeah. Cantonese,
09:29Tai Chi Quan, okay? And it's more of an exercise for the elderly, not so much for the young. Give me
09:37a demonstration. Show me. Can you do a little bit of it? I mean, hand-wise, it's very slow. Oh, is it?
09:43And you push it out, but all the time, you are keeping the continuity going. Bending, stretching,
09:51everything. You know, suppose, you know, I mean, you just keep it moving. It's like a valley dancer
09:55there. Yeah, it is. I mean, to them, you see, the idea is running water never grows stale, so you
10:01got to just keep on flowing. Of all your students, famous, James Garner, Steve McQueen, Lee Marvin,
10:08James Coburn, Roman Polanski, which was the best? Who adapted best to this oriental form of exercise
10:14and defense? Well, depending, okay? Now, as a fighter, Steve McQueen, now, he is good in that
10:26department, because that son of a gun got the toughness in him. Yeah, I see it on the screen.
10:32I mean, he would say, all right, baby, here I am, man, you know, and he'll do it. Yeah. Now,
10:38James Coburn is a peace-loving man. I met him. Right? I mean, you've met him. I mean, he's really,
10:44really nice. I mean, super mellow and all that. You know, I mean, now, he appreciates
10:52the philosophical part of it. Therefore, his understanding of it is deeper than Steve.
10:57So, it's really hard to say. You see what I'm saying now? I see. I mean, it's different. So,
11:03that's, I mean, depending on what you see in it. Interesting. We don't, in our world,
11:11and haven't since the days of the Greeks, who did, combine philosophy and art with sport,
11:18but quite clearly, the oriental attitudes of the three are facets of the same thing. Man,
11:24listen, you see, really, to me, okay, to me, ultimately, martial art means
11:32honestly expressing yourself. Now, it is very difficult to do. I mean, it is easy for me to
11:40put on a show and be cocky, and be flooded with a cocky feeling, and then feel like pretty cool,
11:46and all that. Or I can make all kinds of phony things, you see what I mean? Blinded by it. Or
11:52I can show you some really fancy movement. But to express oneself honestly, not lying to oneself,
12:01and to express myself honestly. Now, that, my friend, is very hard to do. And you have to train.
12:09You have to keep your reflexes, so that when you want it, it's there. When you want to move,
12:13you're moving. And when you move, you are determined to move. Not taking one inch,
12:18not anything less than that. If I want to punch, I'm going to do it, man, and I'm going to do it,
12:24you see? So, I mean, so that is the type of thing you have to train yourself into it, to become one
12:29with the, you think? Yeah, this is very un-Western, this attitude. I won't ask you about your movie
12:36and TV career, but first, we'll take a break, and I'll be back with Bruce Lee.
12:40I've been talking to Bruce Lee, mainly about the Chinese martial arts, which include things like
12:46Chinese boxing, karate, and judo, which is what he taught when he was in Hollywood.
12:50After he left the University of Washington, where he studied, of all things, philosophy,
12:53if you can believe that. He did, but that, perhaps you understand why the two go together from the
12:59first half of this program. And you can perhaps understand how he got into films. He knew a lot
13:04half of this program. And you can perhaps understand how he got into films. He knew a lot
13:08of actors, but I'm told that you got the job on the Green Hornet, where you played Cato the Chauffeur,
13:15mainly because you're the only Chinese-looking guy who could pronounce the name of the leading
13:19character, Brit Reid. I made that as a joke, of course, and it's a heck of a name, man. I mean,
13:27every time I said it, at that time, I was super conscious. I mean, really now, that's another
13:32interesting thing, huh? Let's say if you learn to speak Chinese, and it's very, I mean, it's not
13:39difficult to learn and speak the word. The hard thing, the difficult thing, it's behind what is
13:46the meaning, what brought on the expression and feelings behind those words. Like when I first
13:51arrived in the United States, and I look at a Caucasian, and I really would not know whether
13:56he was putting me on, or is he really angry, because we have different way of reacting.
14:01See, those are the difficult things, you see. It's almost as if you came upon a strange race,
14:07where a smile didn't mean what it does to us. In fact, a smile doesn't always mean the same,
14:11does it? Of course not. Yeah, I just thought of that. Tell me about the big break when you
14:18played in Longstreet. I must tell the audience that Bruce Lee had a bit part, or a supporting
14:26role, in the Longstreet series, and this had an enormous effect on the audience. What was it?
14:33Well, you see, the title of that particular episode of Longstreet is called The Way of
14:40the Intercepting Fist. Now, I think the successful ingredient in it was because I was being Bruce Lee.
14:51Yourself? Myself, right, and did that part, just express myself, like I say, honestly express myself
14:58at that time, and because of that, I brought, you know, favourable mentioning in like New York
15:04Times, which says like the Chinaman, who incidentally came off quite convincingly enough
15:11to earn himself a television series, and so on, and so on, and so forth. Can you remember the lines by
15:16Sterling Sullivan, to the key lines? He's one of my students, you know. Was he too? Yes.
15:24But you read, there were some lines that expressed your philosophy. I don't know if you remember them
15:27or not. Oh, I remember that. This is what it is, okay. You're talking to Longstreet, played by
15:33James Francesca. I said, empty your mind, be formless, shapeless, like water. Now, you put water into a cup,
15:44it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot, it
15:49becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow, or it can crash. Be water, my friend, like that. I see, I get
15:59the idea. I get the power behind it. So, now, two things have happened. First, there's a pretty good
16:08chance that you'll get a TV series in the States called The Warriors, in which you use, what, the
16:13martial arts in a western setting? Well, that was the original idea. Now, Paramount, you know, I did
16:20Longstreet for Paramount, and Paramount wants me to be in a television series. On the other hand,
16:26Warner Brothers wants me to be in another one, but both of them, I think, they want me to be in a
16:33modernized type of a thing, and they think that western idea is out, whereas I want...
16:39You want to do the western idea? I want, because, you see, I mean, how else can you justify all these
16:46punching and kicking and violence, except in the period of the West? I mean, nowadays,
16:52I mean, you don't go around on the street kicking people or punching people, because if you do...
16:58Yeah. That's it. I mean, I don't care how good you are, you know. But this is true also of the
17:05Chinese dramas, which are mainly costume dramas. They're all full of blood and gore over here.
17:10Oh, you mean here? Yeah. Well, unfortunately, you see, I hope that the picture I am in
17:17would either explain why the violence was done, whether right or wrong or whatnot, but
17:28unfortunately, pictures, most of them here, are done mainly just for the sake of violence,
17:34you know what I mean? Like, you know, fighting for 30 minutes, get stabbed 50 times.
17:38Well, I'm fascinated. Let me give you your microphone back. I'm fascinated that you came
17:43back. I am a martial artist. You came back to Hong Kong on the verge of success in Hollywood
17:49and full of it, and suddenly, on the strength of one picture, you become a superstar. Everybody
17:55knows you. You have to change your phone number. You get mobbed in the streets. Now, what are you
18:02going to do? Are you going to be able to live in both worlds? Are you going to be a superstar here
18:07or one of the states or both? Well, let me say this. First of all, the word superstar really
18:14turned me off, and I'll tell you why. Because the word star, man, it's an illusion. It's something
18:21what the public calls you. You should look upon oneself as an actor, man. I mean, you would be
18:27very pleased if somebody say, hey man, you are a super actor. It is much better than, you know,
18:32superstar. You've got to admit that you are a superstar, you know, if you're going to give
18:37me the truth. I am now. I'm honestly saying this, okay. Yes, I have been very successful, okay,
18:44but I mean, I think the word star is... I mean, I do not look upon myself as a star. I really don't.
18:52I mean, believe me, man, when I say it. I mean, I'm not saying it because... What are you going
18:57to do? Let's get back to the question. Are you going to stay in Hong Kong and be famous, or
19:01are you going to go to the United States and be famous, or are you going to try and eat your cake
19:04and have it too? I am going to do both, because you see, I have already made up my mind that in
19:11the United States, I think something about the oriental, I mean, the true oriental should be
19:19shown. Hollywood sure as heck hasn't. You better believe it, man. I mean, it's always that pigtail
19:24and bouncing around chop-chop, you know, with the Iceland and all that, and I think that's very,
19:29very out of date. Is it true that the first job you had was being cast as Charlie Chan's number
19:34one son? Yeah, number one son, yeah. They never made the movie? No, no, no, no, no. They were
19:39going to make it into like a new Chinese James Bond type of a thing, now that, you know, the old
19:44man Chan is dead, Charlie is dead, and his son is carrying on. Oh, I see. But they didn't do that.
19:51Batman came along, you see, because... and then everything was started to be going into that,
19:57you know, that kind of... which you were in, but... I mean, by the way, I did a really terrible
20:04job in that, I have to say. Really? You didn't like yourself? I didn't see it. Let me ask you,
20:09however, about the problems that you face as a Chinese hero in an American series. Have people
20:17come up in the industry and said, well, we don't know how the audience are going to take a non-American?
20:22Well, such question has been raised. In fact, it is, it is, it is being discussed, and that is why
20:28the warrior is probably, is not going to be on. I see. You see, because, unfortunately,
20:36such thing does exist in this world, you see, like, I don't know, certain part of the country,
20:44certain part of the country, right, where, like, they think that business-wide it's a risk,
20:51and I don't blame them, and I don't blame them. I mean, in the same way, it's like in Hong Kong,
20:55if a foreigner come and be, and became a star, if I were the man with the money,
21:03I probably would have my own worry of whether or not the acceptance would be there, but that's
21:10all right, because if you, if you honestly express yourself, it doesn't matter, you see.
21:16Are you, how about the other side of the coin? Is it possible that you are, I mean, you're fairly hip
21:21and fairly Americanized. Are you too Western for oriental audiences, do you think? Oh, man, like
21:28how? I have been, I have been criticized for that. You have? Oh, yes, definitely.
21:35Well, let me say this, when I do the Chinese film, I'll try my best not to be as
21:48American as I, you know, have been adjust to for the last 12 years in the States,
21:53and but when I go back to the States, it seems to be the other way around, you know.
21:59Too exotic, eh? Yeah, man, I mean, they're trying to get me to do too many things that are really
22:05for the sake of being exotic. You understand what I'm trying to say? Oh, sure. So it's really, I mean,
22:11it's... When you live in both worlds, you, there's, it brings us problems as well as
22:15advantages, and you've got both. Time to go to a commercial. I'll be back in a moment with Bruce Lee.
22:22Let me ask you whether the change in attitude on the part of the Nixon administration towards China
22:29has helped your chances of starring in an American TV series?
22:34Well, first of all, this happened before that, but I do think that
22:43things of Chinese will be quite interesting for the next few years. I mean, not that I'm
22:48politically, you know, inclining toward anything, you know. I understand that, but I just wondering...
22:52But I mean, I mean, once the opening of China, you know, I mean, that it will bring more
23:00understanding. Yeah. More things that are, hey, like, different, you know, and maybe in the contrast
23:08of comparison, some new thing might grow. So therefore, I mean, it's a very rich period to be in.
23:15I mean, like, if I were born, let's say, 40 years ago. Yeah. If I have a thought in my mind, I said,
23:23boy, I'm gonna star in a movie or star in a television series in America. Well, that might be
23:30a vague dream, but I think right now, maybe. You still think of yourself Chinese, or do you ever
23:38think of yourself as North American? You know what I want to think of myself?
23:45As a human being, because, I mean, I don't want to sound like, you know, as Confucius say,
23:51but under the sky, under the heaven, man, there is but one family. It just so happened, man, that
23:57people are different. Okay, we got to go. Thank you, Bruce Lee, for coming here. Thank you for
24:02watching. Thank you. You've been watching Bruce Lee on the Pierre Burton Show,
24:10a half-hour program of conversation, opinion, and debate. This is Bernard Cowan speaking.