Six filmmakers come together for the second annual Hollywood Reporter roundtable at the Red Sea International Film Festival (RSIFF) in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia including RSIFF 2024 jury president Spike Lee, Lawrence Valin, Hala Elkoussy, Meshal Al Jaser, R.T. Thorne and Sarah Friedland. The filmmakers talk creative influences, the importance of music, why words are "overrated" and the lasting appeal of 'Do the Right Thing.'
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00:00That's a beautiful thing to be a part of, to be a filmmaker, to be able to express that and then
00:06allow people from all different parts of the world, you know, I mean, I'm going to just take
00:11this opportunity and give, you know, Spike his flowers, you know, for me because it was, it was...
00:18Youngblood?
00:19Yes.
00:19You know what I mean?
00:21Excuse me, excuse me.
00:22It's just, it's a butter thing, a butter thing, a butter thing, a butter thing.
00:31Hello and welcome everybody for our second annual Hollywood Reporter Roundtable here
00:35at the Red Sea International Film Festival. We're here in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia with six
00:41wonderful filmmakers who have taken time out to talk to us a little bit about their career and
00:46their work. They're all game changers, they're all innovators, they're all trailblazers.
00:52And I want to start with the gentleman on my left,
00:55this year's touring president at the Red Sea Film Festival, a man who needs no introduction,
01:00the one, the only, Spike Lee. Thank you, Spike, for being here.
01:04Nice to have you.
01:04Thank everyone here at the table.
01:07Next to him with Hela El-Koussi from Egypt. She's an artist and filmmaker.
01:14She's here with a movie called East of Noon. It's a very experimental film, very surrealist,
01:21very challenging, talks about youth and yearning for freedom and many other things.
01:27If you haven't seen it, it's something that touches you a lot.
01:32Next to her, we have RT over here from Canada. Thank you for coming all the way as well.
01:38He's a multi-hyphenate. He can do it all. He can write, produce, direct.
01:43He's done music videos. He's doing features now.
01:47His film screening here at the Red Sea Festival is called Forty Acres.
01:51It's set in a utopian future, so to speak, and it's full of drama, full of emotion,
02:00and it has the wonderful Danielle Detwiler in it as well.
02:05Then I want to go over here, Lawrence Vallart. He's here from France.
02:10His parents are originally from Sri Lanka, and he's really an actor and a director.
02:18If you have not seen his film, Little Jaffna, that's here in the program,
02:22he's actually the lead actor and the director. It's about a policeman who has to go undercover
02:30to infiltrate a Tamil gang, and a lot of drama, a lot of emotional stuff happens,
02:36plus action. It's like a mix of a lot of things. Hopefully, we can talk about it a little bit more
02:42as well. Next to him, I want to welcome Sarah Friedland. She's here from the US.
02:49Where in the US?
02:50Brooklyn, New York.
02:54Which part of Brooklyn?
02:56South Brooklyn.
02:58Nice. Well, we have the New York connection here.
03:01Brooklyn's in the house.
03:03Sarah is a choreographer, has worked with dance videos, and she has her first narrative feature
03:08film here. It's called Familiar Touch. It's about a woman who gets checked into a managed living home,
03:15assisted living home by her son, and we hopefully get to talk about that as well.
03:21And then last, but definitely not least, we have here with us,
03:25Michelle Alchasser. He's the Saudi homegrown up-and-comer. He had a wonderful movie here at
03:32the Red Sea Film Festival last year called Naga. If you have not seen it, here it's still on Netflix.
03:38They're very happy with it. And it's a story, if you like stories of young women who go to
03:46secret parties in the desert, and they need to rush home to make curfew, but get chased by a
03:52crazy camel, that's definitely one for you. Thank you, Michelle, for being here.
03:57Thank you. Thank you for having me.
03:58Before we talk about all your backgrounds, I wanted to ask you, Spike, I saw you on the opening
04:02night on the red carpet, say hello to Michael Douglas, and there were all these other people
04:06wanted to take selfies with you. But I know you're not here to just socialize with people
04:10you already know. Tell us a little bit about why it was important for you to come here to
04:13Saudi Arabia, to the Red Sea Film Festival, be the jury president.
04:17I was surprised. I mean, it's something I didn't expect.
04:20I was surprised. I mean, it's something I didn't expect. And so when I got the call,
04:24I said, for sure. I love cinema. I love especially world cinema. And
04:32this gives me opportunity to see films that I probably never had seen. So we're halfway through.
04:40And a lot of surprises and there's talent all over the world, not just in Hollywood.
04:47See, that's wonderful to say this. One of the newer countries that's starting to make a lot
04:51of films, Saudi Arabia. Michelle, I wanted to ask you, a few years ago, the country started
04:56opening up to filmmakers and the box office has been on the rise. There's been a lot of
05:01young creative talent trying to make films. You started with short videos that I hear ended up
05:07on YouTube and then moved into features. Talk a little bit about how the opening up has kind
05:11of helped you move from the shorter to longer form content. You know, before cinema wasn't
05:17really accessible. So we were just trying to express ourselves in whatever medium is possible.
05:23And now that it's open, you know, it means that it's being embraced and taken seriously as a part
05:29of vital part of the culture and the economic system. And, you know, the government is doing
05:36so much to show support and take the industry in a serious manner in terms of, you know, grants to
05:46cash rebates to opening big studios, like studios in Al Ula and big time studios. And it's being
05:57really done fast and exceptional time. Now, for the rest of you, I don't know who's been here
06:04before, who's new to the country. And do you guys come here to just have another audience
06:09where you can show your movie? Do you come here and think, oh, maybe I could shoot something
06:13here eventually? What's going to be the exciting part? This is my third. First time was Malcolm X.
06:20Oh yeah, there's a scene in that that was produced. We were the first ever allowed to bring a camera
06:26into Mecca during Hajj. So I hired, not being a Muslim, I hired a Muslim crew. And a couple of
06:36years ago, we showed Malcolm X. He hadn't been shown here. So this is the third time.
06:41Nice. How about you?
06:43No, that's my first time in Saudi Arabia. I probably, let's say, I didn't imagine a future
06:50that would include me being in Saudi Arabia in a film festival. So let's say.
06:54Why is that?
06:54Because it was not forthcoming. Let's put it this way. Yeah, it's a surprise to the whole
07:00of the Arab world somehow, and also the world. So we're witnessing a big change here.
07:07Yeah, no, it's definitely my first time over here. And yeah, it was a beautiful opportunity to come
07:14and, as Spike said, just like seeing films from voices that, you know, you've never heard from
07:20before, see culture in a way that we've never heard before, you know, coming from a Western
07:26country like this. And then also, I'm just, you know, I'm a human. I love to travel. I love to
07:32meet people and experience their culture. So, you know, understand that and learn and then have a
07:39chance to share my voice and share what, you know, my story is and expose them to our side too. So
07:46yeah. Anything you guys want to add?
07:50You tell everything. I can just say the same. No, for me, it was like, you know, it seems like
07:56it's the beginning of something here and people, it's not used to go to the cinema. And in France,
08:02you have cinema everywhere. And at that time, I realized that we are privileged. They are like,
08:07OK, it's normal for us. But for those people, it's like, OK, it's the beginning. And I was like,
08:13wow, how they are reacting in the theater rooms. And one little boy surprised me because, you know,
08:19his phone ringing, he take his phone and he was speaking. And I was like, what? And at that time,
08:26I said, OK, he didn't have still the, you know, the used to, OK, they are like learning too.
08:32And it's normal because it's just a thing culture. And I was like, don't be the French guy. Oh,
08:37what are you doing? You know, just and that's the thing. It's good because it's like you're
08:44traveling other culture, other thing. And you are just experienced at the experience of
08:52cultural experience. I don't know if it's clear. Sorry. No, no, that's you know, that's like
08:56going to like, you know, back homes like this cinemas in Scarborough, you go to Scarborough
09:02late night cinema and people be yelling at the screens, you know what I mean? And like,
09:06it's just that's just a different type of culture to see how it is. So, yeah, it's beautiful.
09:13I look forward to that. Yeah, I just landed three hours ago. I'm looking forward to seeing.
09:19Oh, my goodness. Seeing what it's like to just got here. I just got here. Yeah. I mean,
09:24I'd heard beautiful things about Colleen's programming and that's part of what drew me here.
09:28But also for me, because my film centers on aging and the experience of a woman
09:34who's aging, the greatest privilege of the festival circuit has been talking to people
09:39about their experience of elder care in different countries. And I've yet to share the film in the
09:44Middle East. So I'm really excited to talk to people about their experiences of aging here.
09:48You know, what sort of care infrastructure exists? How do people sort of relate to our
09:55character, even if she's very specifically an American woman? So, yeah, I'm yeah, can't wait.
10:01And then maybe you guys can talk about your latest films. Some of you have them here.
10:08Michelle, you can maybe talk a little bit about Naga or any new project you want to talk about.
10:14I'm curious, people sometimes say, I think earlier this year, someone said to me,
10:19oh, I love myself a Spike Lee film. To my friend. Yeah, who's that?
10:23Oh, I'll give you his number. And a friend of mine, he says, oh, I'll watch a Spike Lee film.
10:31You know, and there's certain brand values. You go, oh, I know I get something that I
10:38will enjoy. Maybe it speaks to me. It's a voice that I like. And so I wanted to ask
10:41a little bit about cinematic voice and whether you guys think you have a very particular cinematic
10:47voice or not, or does anything that's important in your latest film that you say this shows
10:52who I am particularly strongly? As you said, I come from a background of visual arts and coming
11:00to cinema felt like something urgent that I needed to do because after a certain, let's say,
11:08level, like attaining a certain level of success as a visual artist, it felt to me like I wanted
11:14to reach out to audiences specifically in the Arab world. The visual arts are very elitist in
11:23this part of the world. Their dissemination, their consumption, their interpretation,
11:30it's all very limited. And so I had to revise my position, thinking like, why did I come to
11:36visual arts? I came to visual arts because I, let's say, had a vision to share with others.
11:42And now it feels like I'm sharing it in museums and biennials abroad. So what is it that I can do,
11:50because I still have many other things that I want to say, to reach out to my people,
11:56specifically, initially, you know? And then I thought, okay, cinema does not need a mediator
12:03in the sense that films, at least in Egypt, end up eventually pirated on the internet
12:10and everybody can watch. And it's actually something that I kind of feel is good,
12:14because they go everywhere. And then they live and they have different lives. But I wanted to
12:21bring my own voice as a visual artist to films. Egypt is a country with a very long history of
12:27filmmaking. But I wanted to make films as the visual artist that I am, because in the end,
12:32I did not start from zero. And in my visual art, I'm concerned with the idea that we have
12:39all this very, very long history of, like a cultural history, that deserves to be...
12:46Egypt, right?
12:47Yes. To be tapped into for not just inspiration, but for visual language. I mean,
12:53when I first started making art, I was likened to Western philosophers and thinkers and writers.
13:00This is what the Europeans needed to place my work. They had to relate me to Foucault,
13:07or they had to relate me to Godard. And I continuously continue to insist that I'm
13:14bringing my references from a local source and bringing them to this moment in time,
13:20so it's not like I'm not making folklore. I'm actually revisiting these, let's say,
13:27terms of visual language, the vocabulary of my visual language, to bring them to audiences
13:35everywhere so that eventually they will join in the international way of interpreting or seeing.
13:44Because we deserve to be there and we learn the visual language of others. And it is important
13:53that somehow this is how we appreciate each other, by having a presence that is our own.
14:00I feel that film is that medium. Film and music, those to me, in terms of the art forms,
14:10are the most accessible. They're inclusive, I think, inherently. You don't have to even
14:18understand the language of a song. You catch the vibe of the song, you feel it emotionally.
14:24This is very much the same thing, I think, in film. There's this opportunity in film to reach
14:30almost anybody and for you to be swept up in that. And I think what you said,
14:35just, you know, there's a humanity, I think, to film that it draws you in and gives you an
14:42experience with a certain person's life or a certain culture. And you get to live that.
14:49And that's a beautiful thing to be a part of, to be a filmmaker, to be able to express that
14:56and then allow people from all different parts of the world, you know, I mean, I'm gonna just
15:02take this opportunity and give, you know, Spike his flowers, you know, for me, because it was...
15:09Youngblood?
15:09Yes.
15:11You know what I mean?
15:11Excuse me, excuse me.
15:16But, you know, like when I was 16, I saw Do The Right Thing. It wasn't quite, I didn't get to
15:22see it in theater, but I saw it on VHS, so I'm still aging myself. Immediately I saw that film,
15:28I rewound it and watched it again immediately, you know, and it was the first film...
15:33What, the ice cube scene you kept rewinding?
15:36I rewound the whole film, you know.
15:44To say, you know, it was like, you know, it was the first film that clicked for me as a young
15:53man to see that, you know, especially movies that you get when you watch movies in,
16:00you know, in North America, you see a lot of entertainment and it was entertaining,
16:06but it also spoke to me on an emotional level. It taught me things, it brought me to realizations
16:15and that film can do that, can open a mind up while still entertaining, making you laugh,
16:22making you angry, making you cry. It can do all those things and you can walk away from it
16:26thinking for days, you know, and so that was the first film that did that for me as well,
16:31you know, so it's a beautiful thing to be a film, I guess I'm just saying,
16:36it's a beautiful thing to be a filmmaker. It's incredible. I think I will always say
16:40the same thing, but in a way, you know, the thing is, do the right thing, make me the same thing,
16:45but in another way, the thing is, you're a black American and it's a way that you have models.
16:51After you watch this film, you say, okay, we can do these things.
16:54Well, I'll say, I'll say, I'll say like, I'm black Canadian. So, you know, and we do have,
16:59we do have, and our cultures are very similar, but Spike's film showed me something. You're right.
17:04As an example, I said, wow, you can do something like that.
17:08It creates a path, you know, for, for me, as when I, when I started as an actor,
17:13there wasn't any parts, you know, I was like looking at Denzel Washington. I was like,
17:17okay, I want to do, but he's a black American and I was like a French
17:21Tamil man. And I have no models, nothing. And you have to create the paths. And when I,
17:28Little Jaffna, I always said, and it was the joke when they proposed me to do the
17:32round table with Spike, it was like, I tell everyone Little Jaffna is the, do the right thing,
17:37Tamil version in the, in the French, you know, because it's the thing.
17:40L'Aine.
17:42Little Jaffna.
17:45And you know what he said? He never saw do the right thing.
17:48Who?
17:48Both.
17:51All right.
17:52He said he never saw do the right thing.
17:57He said he never saw do the right thing.
18:01I saw do the right thing.
18:06But the thing is for, for us, it was like, okay, I have to create new representation
18:12because when you don't have any representation, it is very difficult to, to think that I can
18:17direct, I can act. And the thing is for me, it's like just new. I just did this debut film. It's
18:23like for every person, Tamil community in France, it's like, they were like, okay, we are doing
18:28something new and we don't know. And it's just the beginning. And it's, it's a...
18:32How did you get your film name?
18:34I get in the classical way. I have done all the studies in La Femmise. And before I was an actor,
18:41I get all the cliches role that the Indian guy, the Indian best friend, the fuck here,
18:46all the stuff. And even I started to speak English with an accent, which, you know, and to, you know.
18:53Let me hear you, let me hear your New York accent.
18:58I'm funny. You want to use it? I speak in French. No.
19:01You just say you practice the accent.
19:03No, I can speak like this and you, if you want, but I don't want to, you know.
19:09And the thing is, at one point I said, okay, I have to go to the other side,
19:15start writing, start telling stories that not without any cliche and represent my community.
19:20And in a way, you know, in Little Jaffna, there is very political stuff. And when I started
19:27searching films that seem like, okay, in an entertainment way. And in the same time, there
19:32is a very important message in it. For me, Do The Right Thing was the perfect film to say, okay,
19:37I want to do like this, but we are in France and in this community.
19:43Michel, I'm curious, this last year, I remember I walked the halls of the market, the Souk,
19:49and Netflix had this booth with pictures of your film, Lager, there. And I looked at them
19:56and I remember there were young kids walking by who were probably local, at least from the region.
20:01And they said, they were pointing at them. And I thought they must be thinking, oh, look,
20:06one of our guys did this. Maybe we can get a movie out there. Did you ever think about
20:12wanting to open the path for creatives in the region, or at least in Saudi Arabia?
20:17I mean, I just have a humble experience. I just started, the industry just started. So
20:24there's definitely a sense of privilege, but also responsibility and pressure to be part of this
20:29generation of filmmakers, because you know, your typical, I would say filmmaker journey,
20:35he comes in and a sustainable industry, and it's an individual journey for success.
20:42And for us, I think it's more of teamwork. It's a collective because it's not your own.
20:49It's not just if I should I, it's not an individual mission where I should just get the
20:54awards and not care. I have to be part of, you know, making sure that it's also a sustainable
21:01industry. It's both, you know, it's a high responsibility, but also
21:06really empowering and exciting. Thanks. Yeah, Sarah.
21:10Yeah. I mean, in terms of my, the films that I make, as you said, I'm coming from a background
21:15making dance films, but the dance films that I've been making aren't sort of from
21:20a lineage of stylized dance, but rather, I went to Brown, Ivy League.
21:26Yeah, so my films sort of look at social choreographies, that is sort of the movement
21:30of everyday life. And I think now moving into narrative work, I feel like my work is to sort of
21:38encode through movement types of stories that have previously been told through language.
21:43So this film that I've made, it's a character study, but it's really a character study
21:47that's sort of told through the physical perspective of our character. And that's
21:51what I really want to keep making, is films that really have this like language of the body
21:55and the choreographic. Yeah, I kind of pulled through choreographic patterns.
22:00Yeah, I noticed the first few minutes, no word is said, and I'm sitting there going,
22:05what's happening here? Who is this? What's going on? Is this a documentary? Or is this
22:10fiction? And immediately, I, you know, lean forward, it makes me think, oh, there's a good
22:15reaction, right? Because at some point, I'm thinking, what am I doing? I don't know,
22:19right? Because at some point, I'm thinking, what am I doing? Okay. And then, you know,
22:23things slowly emerge. But I thought, oh, yeah, this is how it would happen if you actually
22:27just looked into somebody's window and go, you don't have to explain what the guy outside is
22:33wondering about. The guy outside needs to figure out what's happening here. So words are overrated.
22:39I agree.
22:41We learn more about people through their gestures, their body language,
22:46these little interactions that I think we often do through dialogue.
22:50And that's, I mean, that's, to me, the cinematic language.
22:55Artie and Lawrence both have music in the films as well. And I think, Lawrence, you have some people
23:02dancing, moving quite a bit. And Artie, you have one of the characters, you know, putting on some
23:07music. And then talk a little bit about how you guys think about music, because we're talking
23:12about words. How important is music and movement to you since you're a producer?
23:17Yeah, maybe I start like that.
23:23No, for me, music, you know, I grew up with not Bollywood, but Collywood industry. Because when
23:33I was little, when I looked at French films, the hero wasn't my color scheme. And I was like,
23:38OK, I want to be like Alain Delon or Jean-Paul Belmondo, but it's not the same color.
23:45And the thing is, I grew up with Collywood. It's like Bollywood, but there is political stuff and
23:51music, every dance, everything. And I grew up with always keeping with the music. And the music,
23:57it's like, you know, a way for me to bring emotion that don't have to have, you know,
24:04the same level of what you're looking in the image. It's not have to be the same, you know,
24:09to, OK, it's sad. We have to put sadness. I mean, in other way, if it's very happy,
24:16I will put another thing to create another emotion. Just for an example, we are in the church
24:24and there is a procession scene with all the community. And people started to put a classical
24:29Christian sound like, OK, we are in the church. And I put like a rap metallic sound. And I was
24:34like, yeah, that's good, because it was like I never seen that before. And emotionally, it keeps
24:41me going another way. And that's the thing. It's like, you know, people, when they look the film,
24:46they say there is a lot of brown people and they say, OK, it's a Bollywood. And I always said, no,
24:51no, it's a French film. The thing is, I take influence of Collywood film and I mix it with
24:58the French style film. And I think the music is very important. I have to listen to it. You know,
25:03normally as some director in France, we say we don't want to hear just it's calm. And I always
25:10say to my compositor, I want to hear everything. What I would say is I started my career directing
25:16in music videos. That was my way into, you know, it's almost like being a filmmaker was a little
25:24too big an idea for me at the beginning. And I love music and I love being around, you know,
25:32artists and hip hop artists. And I would film them and go backstage and convince them to,
25:38you know, to let me do videos for them and stuff like that. So I always love that aspect. I think
25:44that's that's just being a young person. Like, you know, when you're young and you have access
25:49to music, the music speaks to you in a way that you can't express. It becomes your language. And
25:55so, you know, I had to be it's a part of my life and it's a part of all of my expression. So it has
26:02to be play a major part in my film. And, you know, in my film, one of the things that I had not seen
26:10was a black experience in this kind of a dystopian world. You know, really, truthfully, what would
26:17that be? Oftentimes when we do see if we do, you know, we're just getting to see black experiences
26:23in the future. Like we weren't really represented back then. We were always maybe some background
26:27player in Star Trek, you know, walking along the halls or something. But like now we're getting
26:31to see some. And for me, you know, we take a dystopian narrative about a family, you know,
26:38on a farm. Normally when you see black people on farms and in Western thing, we're slaves,
26:44you know what I'm saying? But for me, I wanted to do. This is a family that is
26:48not only surviving in the future, but they're thriving in the future. And what is their
26:53experience going to be like? And it's and it's also a it's a black and indigenous family. So
26:58it's again, you don't see that experience usually. So I wanted to see that. And what is the experience
27:04of a dystopian future for these people? It's it's going to be one that is culturally informed.
27:12So music is so important to to our cultures. I have a young teenage boy. You know, we have a
27:18pivotal scene in the movie. I don't want to spoil it, but, you know, where he's listening to
27:24something and and and everybody's had that moment where you you're listening and you're watching
27:29somebody and someone is dancing. There's a young woman dancing and he's transfixed in this moment,
27:35you know. And so I wanted to capture those moments of being a young person and experiencing
27:44that through music, even though it's in this horrible, dark, dystopian world. You know what
27:50I mean? I feel like those are all things that come from a personal experience and I wanted it
27:56to be in the film. So that that's how it worked its way into my film. Well, I it seems it's not
28:03a coincidence I'm seated next to you. So my protagonist is a young man, a teenager, I mean,
28:10older teenager. My film is a dystopia, but not in the future. And he rebels through making music.
28:18When I had to think about how this young person could express the fact that he wants change.
28:26The first answer was that he's definitely an artist. But what what kind of artist? And then
28:31it became obvious that it has to be music because music has this thing about it. It's you cannot
28:39stop music. You couldn't stop music in communist East Germany, going to West Germany and creating
28:45this whole scene. You couldn't stop music in Iran. So I kind of followed suit. But at the same time,
28:51since he had to be innovating through music, I couldn't have him adopt the established ways
28:58of making music that we have now. He had to kind of create something that was not,
29:03that does not exist. And to kind of create this distance between him and the establishment.
29:10So we kind of built him instruments from from this dystopian world. It's like this
29:18from from in this dystopian world. It's like the work on the music started when we
29:23had the first version of the script, because it took five years that we were working with
29:28a composer and the sound designer until we first build the instruments. And that was that was my
29:35only the only thing that I told the composer is that whatever sound you're going to make
29:39for this young man, it cannot come from an instrument that we know because I'm going to
29:45assign the established instruments to authority. You know, they would become the voice of authority.
29:51And then this young man has to have something completely different. So if you first had to
29:55build the instruments, then we had to tune the instruments because they had to be music had to
30:01be written for these instruments could not just be noise. Then then he composed for the instruments,
30:06recorded them. And then when we cast the actor, he had to practice playing these instruments.
30:12And what is this called? No, I mean, he kind of referenced them to already existing instruments,
30:19but they were made from junk. It's not. And then we had to create this whole wall behind him for
30:27how he could in an analog way sample his music, because otherwise it would not be inclusive for
30:34young people today. They could not imagine that this young people could could sample music. But
30:40he was playing with flip flops and tubes from what's called the sewers, plastic tubes and
30:48jerrycans and all sorts of stuff. So I feel I'm seated in the right place.
30:52I feel you are. You know, what's even more interesting is that my composer, Todor Kabakov
31:00from Canada, he he did something very similar to what you're talking about for our score.
31:07For our score, he didn't want to use established instruments. He went out and recorded bark on
31:14trees breaking and old steel drums. And he made the percussion and the sounds of our score from
31:22those recordings. My protagonist does this in the film. He samples the sounds of this dystopic
31:28environment in which he lives and then he puts it into his music. I wonder if my composer saw your film.
31:33No, but when you have one person doing something and then a second person doing something,
31:40then you feel you're, you know, it's good. The same. Yeah. So we kind of music. Music is important.
31:47We said words are overrated. So we're coming up with some kind of direction or not direction,
31:53but the feeling that this world is kind of looking for something else. Or at least that's how it
32:00feels. Spike was also taking notes. He was paying close attention.
32:03Spike, are you thinking about using some input from the music side?
32:09How do you usually approach thinking? Well, first of all, my late father is great jazz bassist,
32:15folk bassist. He wrote Bob Dylan, Judy Collins, Aretha Franklin and a whole bunch of people.
32:23So I grew up in a musical household, come out of film school. He did the scores for
32:27She's Gonna Have It, School Days, Do The Right Thing, Mo' Better Blues. I grew up in a
32:33again, a music household. I've always,
32:37even as a kid, understood how music could work, help tell a story. This new film
32:47has a lot of music in it too. Also, we're in post-production now with Denzel Washington.
32:53Can you talk about it?
32:54I'm getting there.
33:01It's not a remake, but a reinterpretation of a great Kierkegaard Showers film, High and Low.
33:10And we're in post-production and it's the fifth film with Denzel.
33:14My brother just saw him gladiator too, he's killing it. In order, Mo' Better Blues, Malcolm X,
33:21he got a game, Inside Man and this new one, it's called Highest to Lowest.
33:28And until someone mentioned to me, Inside Man was 18 years ago, so that's a long gap.
33:34But it was like we seen each other yesterday. He's amazing. And it's just
33:42Denzel, I mean, that guy, he is just, so I've just been very blessed with working with him.
33:52So just keep it going. Dynamic duo, you know, we call him D. So dynamic duo is D and Lee.
34:03What other art forms that you have not actually worked in, do you appreciate? Is there anything
34:09where you say, oh, I never talked about this so much, but there's some art form that I enjoy,
34:14or maybe it's some other hobby? I mean, I think for me, in terms of screenwriting,
34:19I get really inspired by other forms of writing performance. So like movement scores,
34:26other types of sort of experimental script writing, different types of notational systems
34:31really interest me. And so often when writing scripts, I don't write them first in the
34:35screenplay format, but I'll write out kind of maps or diagrams. So yeah, I think like
34:41performance artists who work in these sort of notational systems really fascinate me.
34:46I mean, being involved in music, music videos, younger, just like, you know, dance is such a
34:56pivotal part of expressing yourself when there is music. And even when there isn't,
35:04when there is music and even when there isn't music. And so, and I feel, I don't know,
35:09there's something about movement and rhythm that I think works its way into almost everything that
35:17we do as filmmakers. Like you, you don't know what it is, but you feel it in a scene,
35:23you feel the movement of a scene. It's kind of hard to explain it, but you know it when you're
35:30watching it, you know, and when you're crafting it, you understand that there's an inherent
35:35kind of rhythm. So a dance is very, I don't know, you know, in life, life is a dance,
35:40you know what I mean? So yeah. Yeah. I didn't, I didn't go to film school, but I did study
35:44choreography. And I almost think everyone who wants to be a filmmaker should study choreography
35:49because it's like the blocking is so much exactly what you're talking about.
35:55I collaborated with the choreographer on my first film, even though there was no dance,
35:59because I felt like some scenes, you really want to distill the movement in order to kind of get
36:06to the meaning, you know, you want to, you want to remove all the extra stuff that does not,
36:12that does not take you where you want to go. And, and in this film, I collaborated with
36:19the choreographer, there is some dance, but I also collaborate on scenes that don't have dance,
36:23where I feel that I, I just wanted to kind of, yeah, not, yeah, distill is what I want to say.
36:31Just as much as you edit out words that are not necessary,
36:35then sometimes with movements, you also need to do that.
36:40Lars, I remember there's some scenes in your film as well that, you know, movement is very
36:45important and, you know, acrobatic and dance things like, like, like how did you have a
36:51choreographer come in for that? Or how did you? I think Tamil people, it's natural.
37:00We just put the sound and it's, no, for serious, it's, yeah, I think that for me, you're talking
37:10about choreographer and dance, for me, it's the dress and it's very important for me. I think
37:16when I grew up, I grew up very from a, how to say, not rich family. And I think when I go outside,
37:23I need to have another kind of dress that build me like, okay, I have some prestigious. And when I
37:30come to the film making as an actor, when you put some clothes, you put it in, you come into the
37:36role. It's give you something special when you're, even you just, you put another dress, you have
37:42another way of looking, way of standing. And when I've done the film, I was like, every young
37:53boys in the hoods, they are like dressed black, gray and blue, dark. And they don't want to put
38:00color. And I was like, okay, we're going to put color on you and say, yeah, but you know, people
38:06will look us really close. I said, no, people would, I want you to look very cool. And for me,
38:12it's like, and even I start again, speaking, do the writing when I look the, and it's so,
38:21the shoes, everything. I was like, wow. You mean the Jordans?
38:26The thing is, and I don't put Jordans because I say, everyone say, you do like Spike Lee. And I
38:32say, okay, I put other stuff. But the thing is for me, it's very important because that give a
38:39unique way of, of, uh, yeah. Creating something that when they, when they put the dress, they were
38:47like, Hey, cool. Okay. We can be like that. And that is the thing that, that transform you in a,
38:54in another way. And for me, it was, that was the thing that I can control and put. And, and after
39:00I let that be, I don't have any, I think choreographer to dance or not, but this is my way
39:05of, uh, building stuff before. And after I let it, uh, leave.
39:13Michel, in Naga, I feel there's a lot of movement or it feels like there's a lot of,
39:18you know, uh, movement in it. Did you do this mostly through editing, cutting? Did you have
39:25a movement choreographer? You know, there's the camel chasing and the, you know, I remember
39:32thinking afterwards, wow, I'm exhausted from watching this. And I thought, uh, I don't know
39:36how he did this, but I felt like I needed a drink and the rest after, after watching that film.
39:41Uh, I did. I know. I'm sorry about that, but I never, uh, I never had a choreographer. No.
39:48I think I tend to, uh, just hire the person like, uh, like Mr. Spike Lee. I started with acting in
39:56the beginning and I tend to like to hire non-actors, you know, people that usually have no
40:02interest in cinema. And that becomes very challenging, especially, uh, with, you know,
40:07elder Saudi men and women acting with them. Cause they always, you know, they, they will be shy.
40:13And my goal is to really create a comfortable, uh, environment for them to express something
40:20genuine to capture their raw, uh, essence. Um, and, uh, I think with, uh, with the real,
40:28with the actual actor, um, you know, uh, he, he's always looking for the authenticity,
40:35looking for something real. So we can, he can give us the illusion that he's, he's actually
40:40the real deal. He's the character, but with a non-actor, you already have that,
40:43already have the authenticity and the substance and everything. And you just have to make sure
40:49they don't look at the camera too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course. But, uh, I would say one of the
41:02most difficult things to, to have like a, someone in his sixties, his eighties interested in cinema
41:09from Saudi that he's performing. They're probably a couple, you know, a handful of
41:13people that want to do that. And, you know, you end up with the mom being the mom in every show
41:18and every TV show. So you have to be creative. You have to attract more actors. You have to
41:26hunt them down. I understand totally because in France, it's the same thing. Tamil people
41:30thinks it's a hobby. It's not a real work. And when I go there, I say, yeah, we're going to
41:36shoot. Can you, can I take your daughter or your son to the film? They are like looking at me and
41:43they're like, now why? I want a real work. And I say, it's a real work. But it's very hard because,
41:51you know, it's like you have to work with non-professional actors to create that
41:56because we don't have anyone before. And that's the thing. And in that point, I feel connected.
42:04Exactly. Because they really care about privacy the most. And, you know, cinema is the total
42:10opposite. You're like, I want you to come into this thing that you're not interested in and be
42:14vulnerable. And, you know, so it's a challenge to hunt them down and just like convince them to
42:20do whatever you want to want them to do. That combo of professional actors and
42:24non-professional actors can be so exciting. Exactly. Like on my film, our lead actor is
42:30Kathleen Chalfant. She's like a legend of the New York stage. But then we shot in a real
42:35retirement community. So then everybody, other than the five main roles, everyone were real
42:40older adults and caregivers. And then our actors basically ended up sort of being in residence in
42:46this care facility. And then the exchange, my favorite is the exchange between the professional
42:51actors and non-professional actors. They always have something to add. Yeah. And the actors meet,
42:55the actors learn from the, you know, the non-professionals and the non-professionals
42:59learn from the actors. And that synergy is my favorite. Yeah, me too.
43:05I want to ask, I hear so much passion and so much, you know, like how we talk about how this
43:11is a profession, not just a hobby. If, God forbid, you guys couldn't make films, what job would you
43:20guys love to do? I did so many jobs over the years, so many different things. What have you
43:26done? I mean, as a visual artist, I kind of don't see that anything that I do is above, you know,
43:33like I, you know, like during Corona when I was, when I kind of was locked down, then I was a
43:38gardener, you know, and then gardening became, you know, I was, it became crazy about gardening.
43:43But, but to answer the question, so I don't, and I make my own costumes and I, and I'm,
43:48and I do my own production design. And I've always done that for the last 20 years.
43:53I get the co-editing credit for my films. I mean, basically, I'm, I started out doing
43:57everything myself. And then as I kind of got more means, you sort of let go a little bit.
44:03Yeah, I was filming also myself. So as I, so it would, I would be on like my first short film.
44:09It was just three people. This is the, this is the crew. And then a hundred extras. I love extras.
44:18Yeah, exactly. We were talking about, because, because extras, at least in Egypt sit between
44:22these two worlds of professionals and non-professionals, because most of them
44:29are not doing this all the time. They, they cannot rely on just this, but they love being on,
44:38you know, in front of the camera. But they don't necessarily have the skills to kind of progress
44:44and become a speaking character. But it's, it's a whole, so it was three people, me and two
44:50assistants and a hundred extras. And that was fun. But to answer this question very briefly,
44:56if I would have to not do what I'm doing in another life, I would just definitely
45:00appreciate not having a boss. I mean, this, the last three months are the first time where I'm
45:09filmmaking is my full-time job. I've had day jobs. And I, I mean, honestly, I would, I would
45:17continue doing some of those day jobs. I love them. I think the two that I've loved most,
45:21and that led to making Familiar Touch is I worked as a caregiver for New York City artists with
45:26dementia for about four years. And then that led to being a teaching artist and teaching in
45:31retirement communities and older adult centers. And I, I just, I love intergenerational relationships.
45:37So I think I would probably go back to caregiving and teaching work, although I'm continuing to
45:42teach. But if I like really had to go far outside of our field, I'd be an archaeologist.
45:52I think the digging, the material culture.
45:55I have a much shallow answer. I wanted to be a soccer player. And I think I speak for every
46:04Arab man when I say, it's always the A plan to become a soccer player, whatever.
46:10It's always a B plan.
46:14Is it the local Benzema team or is it the Ronaldo team that?
46:18It's actually none. It's Al Hilal.
46:27I'm interested in you say that, like, how is it in Saudi culture? Like,
46:31would the parents be very supportive of you trying to be a soccer player?
46:36No, I mean, honestly, I wasn't bad.
46:45But it's just, they just don't want you to be, you know, injured and then it's done. That's
46:50usually the excuse. When I did filmmaking, since they didn't know it was a real career,
46:55I just kind of faded into it.
46:57What do they want? What would they prefer you to be?
47:02You know, your typical, you know, obvious job.
47:07Doctor, lawyer, engineer.
47:10Something with a clear purpose.
47:14Yeah, very similar.
47:15They want to save you from existential anxiety. Because that's what I always say. It's like,
47:19if I were a doctor, I would never question why I'm here. But then I'm still questioning why I'm here.
47:27I mean, for me, I don't know. I couldn't.
47:37Would you have a boss?
47:39Oh, no, I can't.
47:39OK, we can work by exchange.
47:41Yeah, I mean, you know, my whole career has just been the hustle, the entire career. You know,
47:48with music videos, it started just chasing people down and convincing them you can do something.
47:54So I've been that type of a hustle for my whole thing. So I don't know how to work in that,
48:00under a boss, let's say. But yeah, I would say I'll put a twist on the question and say,
48:09because my film is a dystopian film, so in the future, there ain't no need for directors.
48:15You know, when the world is collapsing.
48:16But are you going to be directing people now?
48:19Well, I mean, I'm just saying that, like, I think
48:24I quite enjoy, you know, working with, you know, young people and trying to inspire them. And I did
48:34a lot of that in my earlier early in my career. So I think there's part of being a storyteller
48:38involved with being a teacher, you know, and speaking about, you know, whether it be
48:44our history or just telling stories that inspire. So I think I'd like to be somebody that
48:54teaches, you know, yeah.
48:56And I already know Mark's answer. It's the same.
49:01You and me, bro.
49:02No, man. The thing is, when you ask the question, I clearly don't know. Because
49:10when I entered as an actor, I was so focused to be an actor and that's it. And when I knew that
49:17in France, I cannot do that. I was like, what I can do? And I've been a director by
49:24I didn't have any choice because I know that there is no director in France give me the chance.
49:30I will give it by myself. And that's the way I started to work. And for me, I always said,
49:37I didn't have any other plan in my head. When people say, yeah, but if that doesn't work,
49:42director or actor, what you're going to do? I say, no, I won't just do that. And I don't have
49:48nothing. And for me, I cannot say and when I say teacher in the same way for me, it's like
49:56when I bring all those young adults in my film, the youngsters that in my film, I was like, OK,
50:02teaching them how to maybe an actor, a teacher, a professor, maybe it's how to create actors and to
50:13say, yeah, this is possible. And for me, that is very important because because, yeah, if you are
50:21not 100 percent on it, I think in this in this industry and if you are not a son of or your
50:30background, it's very difficult. You have to be like focused. And I was like, I don't know.
50:35I don't know. And when he starts speaking, I say, OK, I say the same thing.
50:39But we already I taught before. I taught photography before at university level. And I guess
50:45it feels like it's there was there's a lot in common with people in this group.
50:54Years of teaching. Yes. You know, I'm a professor at NYU film school where I went.
51:01This is my third year. Ang Lee and I were classmates. But really, I don't want to answer.
51:07I don't really answer hypothetical questions, you know, like what if, you know, if this is happening,
51:15I'm doing what I love. So I don't I don't really have to. I don't for me personally. Well,
51:21well, this didn't happen. This didn't happen. But but I think for me, stuff's happened for a reason.
51:29You know, family background. So I'm just blessed. I'm doing what I love.
51:35And the majority of people on this earth go to jobs they hate their whole life.
51:41So you can make a living doing what you love. You won. Well, I'm glad we could hear from all
51:48of you guys about the wonderful, great work you all put out there. I hope people watch it and go,
51:54oh, see, there's wonderful, positive, creative things to do in this world, not just destructive
52:00things. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it.