Nosferatu star Willem Dafoe is joined by the brains behind the horror film’s 2024 reawakening, Robert Eggers. Watch as the pair talk about early career influences, Robert’s stylistic approach to filming Nosferatu, and why Robert sees Willem as both a “core jester and an oracle.”
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00:00Oh, that wouldn't have been a good idea.
00:02No, it wouldn't have been.
00:04It's just about realism.
00:05I was being buried, and I was cold, and I was dying,
00:09and I was facing death.
00:11So no acting required.
00:22Here we are, by ourselves, just hanging out.
00:26No one's feeding us ideas.
00:29No.
00:29This is just coming.
00:30We enjoy sitting in these chairs at this angle with our cups of coffee.
00:37Here.
00:38Cheers.
00:39But is it coffee?
00:41Do you remember the first place we met?
00:43Literally, like, I remember I asked to see you after seeing The Witch,
00:48because I admired it so, and I thought, this guy's, this person's a filmmaker.
00:53And I was excited to meet you, and I arranged, and we arranged a meeting.
00:58Do you remember where we went?
00:59I remember that we went to an Italian restaurant, like, in the East Village, or Tribeca.
01:06I was, like, at the time, like, you know, barely able to pay my bills.
01:12So I was, aside from the fact that I was incredibly nervous to meet one of my heroes,
01:19I was also excited to, like, have a full meal, and I feel like I ordered a ton of food.
01:23It's hard to believe.
01:25That seems hard to believe, because The Witch did very well.
01:30Yeah, but it was, I hadn't gotten the residuals.
01:36I think, weirdly, the first thing that I saw you in was, I was probably in
01:44first grade when I watched The Last Temptation of Christ.
01:48Which every first grader should see, by the way.
01:51Wow, crazy.
01:54Yeah.
01:55Yeah, you're the guy that saw Nosferatu at nine years old.
01:59Well, there you go.
02:00So, you know.
02:01What were your parents doing?
02:03Well, my mom was, like, had a kid's theater company, and my dad was a Shakespeare professor.
02:10So, yeah, we didn't do The Last Temptation of Christ in the children's theater, but.
02:16And what did you think of it?
02:17Did you think it was cool, or?
02:18I thought it was super cool.
02:19Did you know Martin Scorsese movies?
02:22You watched Mean Streets at five?
02:25No, no, no.
02:26But, yeah, it's interesting.
02:27Like, that was my Jesus, not, like, Max von Sydow or something.
02:33Like, you know, so.
02:34You know, once I'm, I get to name drop here, once I met Max von Sydow.
02:39When was that?
02:39A guy I admired, because, really, my first, really, foreign films that I saw
02:44at a much later age than you were Bergman films.
02:49So, Max von Sydow was, like.
02:51Yeah.
02:52I met him once, and he was very elegant.
02:54And he said, it was after Last Temptation, and he said,
02:57we are both members of a very exclusive club.
03:01Which I, you know, one of those silly actor moments that you really love.
03:07Yeah, that's amazing.
03:08Yeah.
03:08That's amazing.
03:09I feel like some actors talk about actors who influence them, or you can, like,
03:15see them, like, clearly.
03:18You know?
03:18Like, you can see De Niro's grimace in There Will Be Blood.
03:23You know what I mean?
03:24But, like, is there actors who were, like, influential to you, either as a kid,
03:30but more interestingly to me, kind of, as you were maturing as an actor?
03:34Like, in your.
03:36Well, when I was a kid, I was, like, a normal kid, and I never thought I'd be an actor.
03:40I mean, I was in plays and things.
03:43I grew up in Wisconsin, and you don't, I didn't know anybody that made their living
03:48in any way in any, you know, as an artist, or a performer, or something like that.
03:54So I have lots of older brothers and sisters, and I'd hitchhike down to
03:59University of Wisconsin in Madison.
04:01And they had lots of cinema clubs at that time.
04:05So you'd see all these foreign films and stuff that you would never see at your local theater.
04:10Yeah.
04:10And that was the first, that was the beginning.
04:13And I remember one of the first films I saw was The Magician, also called The Face,
04:19which was an early Bergman film.
04:21Yeah, I love it.
04:22Yeah, that would be right up your alley.
04:25I mean, it's a very simple story, but I love that film.
04:28There's beautiful things in it.
04:30And the great performance by Max von Sydow.
04:33So really, like, he is, he was.
04:36Well, I think I like genre films.
04:38I grew up on horror films as a little kid.
04:41I loved Boris Karloff, for example.
04:44I loved Frankenstein.
04:45But, you know, I was more interested, I was interested in other things.
04:50Sure, yeah.
04:50And then later.
04:51And then once I thought, oh, maybe I'd be an actor.
04:54I always admired actors that didn't feel like actors.
04:58I mean, the classic one I cite is Warren Oates, you know, or Harry Dean Stanton.
05:04They were people that you didn't seem like they were trained.
05:07Yeah, yeah.
05:08Where other people that were interested in actors were usually interested in more
05:13celebrated actors or more theatrical actors.
05:17You know, Olivier or Charlotte Brando or something like that.
05:20Yeah, yeah, yeah.
05:21And I admire those people, but I didn't.
05:23I had a poster on my wall, but it wasn't of an actor.
05:26It was of Raquel Welch.
05:29And I came up to her once and I said, I had a poster of you on the wall, you know, in the
05:33and, you know, when I was a kid and her face went dropped and it was like, nice talking.
05:40Oh, man.
05:41Yeah.
05:41Because I'm Mr. Gaffman.
05:43I didn't mean to.
05:45I meant to flatter her.
05:47It's cool that you talk about that because with back to, you know, not being into the
05:52idea of like Olivier or Brando as like an acting ideal or whatever, but your performances,
05:59you have like Florida Project, obviously, like you're in a situation where you're working
06:04with a lot of non-actors, but you give that same kind of like naturalism to that world.
06:12But obviously, like from stage work and something like Green Goblin or even, you know,
06:18even some of the stuff you do in my movies is coming from like another style, you know,
06:25and is like more perhaps like indulging in the performance.
06:31But I don't see it as that.
06:33It's funny.
06:33I don't think I would.
06:35That's a cruel assessment.
06:36No, no, listen, I'm good with you because I know you know performing and listen, that's
06:42okay.
06:42I can take it from you.
06:44I just did an interview with a guy and he said, yeah, I liked your performance a lot,
06:49Nosferatu.
06:50But, you know, I talked to a friend and he said, wow, way over the top.
06:54I was quite surprised.
06:56And I'm always surprised when someone says something's over the top.
06:59You know, I'm really sold on this idea that one man's meat is another man's poison and
07:03sometimes a very naturalistic performance to me looks lazy and not engaged where I like
07:11it a little kicked up.
07:12You know, you always got to dial in, you know, between the two poles of, you know, being
07:17really loose and being really...
07:20But also I think the only thing in Nosferatu that is deliberately...
07:25Over the top?
07:26No, I mean, stylized is the fairy tale framing of things.
07:31Two things about this before we move on is that like, first of all, like if you're being
07:35chased by a vampire, like how are you supposed to act?
07:39Like chill, like a mumblecore movie, like you're going to be crazy.
07:43And then also like your character is an eccentric.
07:46Yes.
07:46Like look at Zizek.
07:48Like if someone did that without...
07:50It's true.
07:50Like you'd be like, come on, like that's over the top.
07:53Yeah.
07:53You know?
07:53I know what my intention was.
07:55Yeah.
07:55And my intention is to play the actions and I'm not thinking about size and I'm not thinking
08:01about selling anything and I'm not thinking...
08:04So, you know, the proportion comes from the energy, you know, that's all.
08:09Yeah.
08:09And you don't do any more than you need to do to accomplish what the character thinks
08:14you need to accomplish.
08:15Exactly, yeah.
08:16Talking about career progression is always weird, but is there a role that you felt like
08:22came at, you know, particularly the right time for you in your journey either as an
08:28actor or as a man?
08:32I don't know, because every time you do something, you think, how do you do this?
08:37You know, I really have that.
08:39And I feel good, you know, actors talk a lot about, oh, it's good to have fear and it's
08:45good to have uncertainty.
08:48And that's true.
08:49After a while, you shake hands with that uncertainty and that not knowing and kind of embrace
08:55it, you know?
08:56Yeah.
08:56But I don't know, it's fun to think about, you know, roles that I thought I wasn't really
09:02right for, but I thought, well, give it a swing, you know?
09:06Since you mentioned Last Temptation, I always think it's kind of funny that I had heard
09:11that people were auditioning for Last Temptation for a long time, and everybody and his brother
09:17was going for this thing, but not me.
09:20And then finally, in the end, I didn't even have a phone in my room, and the landlady
09:26type said, is it a call for you from a guy, you know, Martin Scorsese, you know, basically?
09:33And I'm like, yes.
09:34And it wasn't Martin Scorsese, it was my agent saying, listen, Martin Scorsese wants to see
09:40you.
09:40And I said, for what role, you know?
09:43And he says, Jesus, you idiot.
09:45And I thought, that's like a bad idea.
09:48But then I read the script, and then I got it, because I didn't know the script yet.
09:52But that's a case of the fact that I didn't think I was right for it was correct, because
10:00when I got there, it's a reactive role.
10:03It's a role of a guy that's not accepting what he's supposed to do.
10:08And it was the right time for, you know, me to start a kind of examination of the study
10:15of the Bible and things like that, and the way that different ways the story was told.
10:19So that's not really answering your question, but I thought that might be a fun story to
10:26tell.
10:26It's a great story.
10:27And how do you feel about early Christian Gnosticism?
10:33See, he can't help himself.
10:35If we're making a movie, I'll do a deep dive.
10:38But right now, I'm not your guy.
10:41It's funny, because I have had more than one journalist kind of point out the fact that
10:49in all three films, you've been cast as like the keeper of secrets.
10:55You know, and I was like, oh, yeah, you know.
10:57Because in my life, I don't have any secrets.
11:00I just spill, spill, spill.
11:01And what does that mean to you?
11:05Yeah, yeah.
11:05Yeah, that's good.
11:06I don't know.
11:07I don't know.
11:08Because I guess really, it's more a reflection of how I feel about you.
11:14Go on.
11:15This is blushing time.
11:16But you know, you have like this deep intelligence and a curiosity about...
11:22I'm blushing already.
11:25Deep intelligence.
11:26We could just go with intelligence.
11:29You're interested in so many things.
11:31Like a lot of actors are less interested in things.
11:36And also the kind of humor that you're able to imbue your characters with.
11:42You have the joke of life.
11:43You know, you have the joke of life.
11:45And I think that that's...
11:46That's the nicest thing you can say.
11:48Oh, well, let me see if I can do better.
11:50Who could be a court jester and, you know, an oracle at the same time?
11:58You know, not a lot of actors could do that convincingly.
12:01You give me fun things to do.
12:03That's for sure.
12:04That's for sure.
12:05Often they ask me, oh, why do you like Robin Eggers?
12:10And The Witch, it hit me so hard.
12:13I walked into The Witch.
12:14I didn't know anything about it.
12:16And it was so easy to enter that world.
12:20It wasn't pointed to.
12:22It was lived in.
12:24And I think every time I've worked with you, when you enter the set,
12:29the most impressive thing is everything has a function.
12:32And when you enter that and you submit to that,
12:37it makes the pretending or the being there so easy.
12:41That's the most perfect jumping off point to do anything.
12:46Because the world drops away and you have a new world.
12:49And as an actor, that's the place that you want to be.
12:52That place of being active and feeling an itch, you know, leaning into stuff.
12:58I like it so much.
12:59And I found that true every time I've worked with you.
13:03And also, the thing that people don't know, unless they're, you know, really studied.
13:09I mean, your average audience, people in cinema probably know is
13:12these incredibly long takes that there's no cutting away.
13:17The first thing, what I think a lot of people don't know is,
13:21when I first, we were surprised when Robert Pattinson and I,
13:25when we got there and we went to rehearsal, we assumed we'd rehearse the scenes.
13:31But in fact, we rehearsed the shots.
13:33Yeah.
13:34You and Jaron basically said, this is the way it's going to be, boys.
13:39And then we got to fold into it.
13:40And in some ways, that would drive some actors crazy.
13:44But I love it so much because that is such a strong structure.
13:48You've got everything at your, available to live in that structure.
13:54You don't have to find stuff.
13:56And I love that.
13:58Because I grew up in the theater where the technicians were like the actors
14:01and the actors were like the technicians.
14:03And I think that's a wonderful way to be because it makes everything fluid.
14:07And also, you know, it's natural.
14:10It's so collaborative.
14:11You depend on each other.
14:13I like it as a storytelling mechanism because the audience, I mean,
14:19there is scenes with cuts and there's shot reverse shots in my films, like whatever.
14:23But I think when you have these long and broken takes,
14:26like unconsciously, like you're just more into, in it, you know?
14:30And especially with the period world building and everything,
14:32it's just another layer to keep the audience engaged
14:37without anything pulling them out.
14:39But as you were saying, like experience of making the film,
14:44because everyone is so focused and like,
14:47and it is all about the technicians as well as the actors
14:50and the dolly pusher is as engaged as you, as Aaron, as Lily,
14:54as the carpenters who have to move the walls during the take
14:58to accommodate the camera movement.
14:59Every great creates a tremendous amount of focus.
15:02And they really, as you said, collaboration,
15:04like everyone feels like they're a part of really making the movie
15:09and the scene and the moment.
15:10And that is a good feeling.
15:12The thing that I always think about with the long takes too is,
15:16I remember reading, I think it was Walter Murch, you know, talked about,
15:20he always looked for a cut when people blink, blinked, you know?
15:24Yeah.
15:25Cut is always like a blink, you know?
15:27It is, yeah.
15:28Which is why I'm always asking everyone not to blink.
15:31No, which is, and I remember in the lighthouse,
15:35a lot of people were like,
15:37we have that one long speech that I have that's a, you know, a curse.
15:42And people were like, you didn't blink, man.
15:45Wow, you didn't blink.
15:46And it's like, yeah, I wasn't, you know,
15:48Robert told me not to blink so I can get it together and not blink for,
15:53I had stuff to do.
15:54I had a kind of complicated picture to paint with those words,
15:59with those beautiful words.
16:00So no reason I had to blink, you know?
16:03But that's a good example.
16:05That was one technical thing that I take on.
16:08And it makes a stronger commitment to what you're doing.
16:12I look at you and I always think about the burying in the lighthouse.
16:17Sure.
16:17I mean, that was like one of the most incredible experiences for me to do that.
16:24And it was painful, but I liked it.
16:28When Ryan Johnson did a Q&A at the DGA for the lighthouse and he said,
16:35oh, when you buried Willem, I presume you shot that on stage.
16:40And I thought, oh, that would have been a good idea.
16:43No, it wouldn't have been.
16:45It's just about realism.
16:46I was being buried and I was cold and I was dying and I was facing death.
16:52So no acting required.
16:54You know, the beauty of the lighthouse is,
16:56I always say, you can't play a red, you know, red skin.
17:01You can't play that kind of weather on your face.
17:04We were out there and that really, that told us what to do.
17:09And that's why it's so beautiful when you can shoot on location.
17:13Someone asked me the other day, they said,
17:16what do you think, you know, from working with him three times?
17:19How's he changed?
17:20I was like, same guy, you know?
17:22But maybe what I noticed about, I mean, the scale is different.
17:28But I think when I saw you on Nosferatu, the really beautiful thing was,
17:35nothing can be perfect.
17:37And, you know, you realize that so much a part of being a director is knowing
17:45when to hold and when to fold, you know, and you're so good at that now.
17:49There's a practical aspect that's not giving up, but stuff,
17:54the solution shifts, you know, without giving in.
17:59But you're also, you know, testado.
18:03Very, very kind, thank you.
18:05Hard-headed about, you know, getting what you need.
18:08Ellen asks your character, does evil come from within or beyond?
18:15I have the problem with what is evil?
18:17I mean, you can stop me right there.
18:19I don't have it all worked out because, you know, sometimes you do things
18:23and you don't totally understand what they mean.
18:26And they're going to mean different things to different people.
18:28But in retrospect, when I think about my character's relationship with Ellen,
18:33it's kind of beautiful because he's the one that sees her.
18:37Nobody else sees her.
18:39And you talked, when we were talking the other day,
18:42you talked very beautifully about that triangle, you know?
18:46And that's what's so modern about this.
18:49You know, you've got the dutiful husband.
18:52Well, you describe it.
18:53Ellen, like your character, she's an outsider,
18:57but she really has no one who understands her.
19:00And she's a modern person who sort of like is existing in the 19th century.
19:05And she has, yeah, this love triangle between her husband,
19:08who she does love, you know, and he loves her,
19:11but he cannot like fully see her and fully understand her
19:14and cannot like understand her connection to the dark side or the other side.
19:19And unfortunately, the one person, before she meets you,
19:23who does see that is a demon.
19:26You know, he's a vampire and he's an abuser.
19:28He's coming.
19:30And so that is like the tragedy that it's only in this
19:35like incredibly toxic relationship that's more,
19:39that's a love story, but really more about obsession.
19:42That's where she can find connection to this part of herself.
19:46So yeah, I mean, does evil come from within or beyond?
19:51We all have darkness inside of ourselves to some degree.
19:56And your character also talks about,
19:59you have to face the evil exists in order to fight it.
20:02And you tell Ellen to like crucify the evil within her.
20:08This is part of the reason why horror movies like are important.
20:14Like obviously there's, you know, entertainment,
20:18people enjoy terrifier movies, not my cup of tea,
20:20but like, you know, whatever rings your bell.
20:23These stories are deeply important to like,
20:26to explore what is the darkness.
20:30Not like, you know, it doesn't even have to be about you.
20:32It's like, it's in humanity.
20:34You know what I'm saying?
20:35The shadow side of all things.
20:37Yeah.
20:38You know, doing some press together.
20:39I really enjoyed hearing you.
20:41How far back this thing with not far to it goes.
20:47Nine years old.
20:49You're sitting in New Hampshire.
20:51New Hampshire.
20:51Yeah.
20:52You're, you've got a VHS.
20:54Yeah.
20:54Where'd you get that VHS?
20:56We had to go.
20:57Behind the liquor store.
20:58Yeah.
20:59We had to mail order it, you know,
21:02because there was no internet and no Amazon and all that.
21:05Yeah. So when it finally came, I was very excited.
21:07It's funny because the VHS had no sound.
21:11Like there was, there was literally no score on it.
21:13And I think that the movie might not have had the same effect on me
21:16had it had like a cheesy organ or synth score,
21:19but it was, I was watching it like utterly silent
21:22and it was made from like a poor 16 millimeter print.
21:25And so it kind of seemed real and, you know,
21:29Max, you can't see Max Shrek's bald cap in his grease paint.
21:33And there are certain shots where his eyes almost look like cat eyes.
21:36This is what gave the rumors that he was a real vampire,
21:41hence, you know, Shadow of the Vampire.
21:44But yeah, his performance and the atmosphere of that film
21:48and Murnau's and Galene,
21:51like taking Dracula and turning it into this really simple fairy tale
21:55with lots of enigma.
21:57Just, it hit me harder than any other Dracula I had seen before then,
22:02or since.
22:03And then when I was 17 with my friend, Ashley Kelly-Teda,
22:06who's now a theater and opera director,
22:09we did a high school production of Nosferatu on stage.
22:13Missed that one, too bad.
22:16I'll send you some pictures.
22:17I thought it was cool.
22:18I read that it was all in black and white.
22:21Yeah, it was black and white.
22:23We painted ourselves black and white.
22:24The set was black and white.
22:26Did you play Orlac?
22:27I did, yes.
22:29And then we, a local theater impresario named Ed Langlois
22:33saw the show and invited us to do a more professional version of it
22:37in his theater.
22:38And that kind of, you know,
22:41that made me sure that this is what I wanted to do with my career.
22:45So you played Orlac.
22:47Do you miss performing?
22:49Because you performed after that as well.
22:51Yes.
22:52You love to get me on the topic of me as an actor.
22:56Sorry.
22:57Better than talking about me as an actor.
23:00You know, I don't miss it too much.
23:04When we do a Q&A, I can feel the vibe from the audience sometimes
23:08and I'm like, I'm a little bit of a ham, I suppose.
23:11Oh, ham is being an actor, huh?
23:15But I think, yeah, if there was like an Elizabethan thing
23:18or an Edwardian thing where I think my look suited it,
23:21I might find a tiny thing for me to do.
23:24Okay.
23:25Can I be there for that?
23:26You damn well better be.
23:30It took a long time for this movie to get greenlit to find the right...
23:34What was the problem?
23:35The problem was...
23:38You weren't ready.
23:38I wasn't ready.
23:39Yeah. Thanks, Willem.
23:40Like, you know, whatever the problems were,
23:43I'm glad that there were problems because, as you say, I wasn't ready.
23:47And I wasn't.
23:48I don't know.
23:49It would have been different.
23:50It would have been different.
23:51I don't think it would have been, you know, possibly disastrous
23:54if it was greenlit the first time I tried to do it.
23:56But anyway.
23:57But no, I mean, like, we have such an incredible cast.
24:00I mean, really.
24:01Beautiful.
24:01We were taking pictures the other day and I thought,
24:03this is a good lineup.
24:05Yeah.
24:06And, like, lovely people.
24:08Like, everybody was so engaged because...
24:11But people always say that with you.
24:13No, yeah, I know.
24:14I know, I know.
24:14It's because, you know, obviously we're in the industry.
24:17And so we know the true story.
24:20And sometimes when I'm watching BTS, I know,
24:23like, that really they all hated each other.
24:25Right, right.
24:25But it's not the case here.
24:27Right, right.
24:28What's a film that you've seen or a play that inspired you lately?
24:32I saw a play in Naples that really inspired me.
24:36And it was a Pinocchio.
24:37Oh.
24:38I was so moved from the beginning to the end, not only by the performance,
24:42but also the audience's relationship to it.
24:45Naples is a great theater town.
24:47Yeah.
24:47These people are so connected to this production.
24:51I felt it.
24:52But the thing that was really interesting is I thought, why am I so moved?
24:56I mean, it was a beautiful script and beautifully staged and everything.
25:01And I thought it was interesting that there was such grace to what they were doing
25:06because they were not performers and they could only do what they were doing.
25:12Yeah, yeah, yeah.
25:12There was nothing extra.
25:14There's a beauty to it because nothing else is going on but that.
25:19It's in the same league why sometimes it's so beautiful to work with non-actors
25:23because they don't have an identity of an actor.
25:26So they don't overthink things.
25:27And they go to it.
25:29They do what they can do.
25:30And they get out of the way.
25:32They let nature roll.
25:35And I guess I was, once again, I was moved by that fact that how important it is
25:44to disappear into the actions.
25:47I don't know.
25:49The most beautiful things I see are usually when performers just commit to something.
25:55And it's like the grace of an athlete.
25:58What they're doing is what they're doing.
26:00And something happens to them.
26:02And then you can be with them because they aren't pushing you away with an idea.
26:06They aren't selling you anything.
26:07When it's a story about the Pinocchio story about what it is to be human, it was just gorgeous.
26:15How about you?
26:16Have you seen?
26:17Can you share?
26:18Can you share?
26:19Well, yours is cooler.
26:21But I weirdly have never seen the silent film By the Law until recently.
26:28Well, you got me, baby.
26:30Well, it's this Russian silent movie that's based on a Jack London novel.
26:35It's like it was made for me.
26:36It also feels like there's no way...
26:38You're going to be working on that?
26:40No, no, no.
26:41But it looks like there's no way that I couldn't have made The Lighthouse without seeing it.
26:44There actually are some images that it's like that is in The Lighthouse.
26:48On earth.
26:49But basically, what's really exciting for me is that is this American...
26:52Well, it's Canadian.
26:54But it's like this American setting made by Russians.
26:58And there's murder and cabin fever and desperation.
27:01But it has the heightened Russian...
27:06Expressionistic kind of...
27:08Well, but it's also...
27:10They aren't wearing makeup because Russians weren't really into that in the silent era.
27:13So it has a more raw feeling.
27:15But it has the like explosive, like Dostoevsky personality disordered conflict of ego.
27:24And it's very satisfying.
27:26By the law.
27:27The law.
27:28It's always great talking with you, Willem.
27:30But I look forward to the next time we actually get to work together properly.
27:35Good.
27:36Good.
27:36Me too.
27:37Me too.
27:37I can't wait because we got stuff to do.
27:40We got stuff to do.
27:41Yeah.