Creators/Showrunners Patrick McKay & John D. Payne talk to The Inside Reel on this edition of “Awards Track” about context, motivation, behavior, thematics and intent in regards to the 2nd season of their Prime Video series: “The Lord Of The Rings: Rings Of Power.”
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00:00At this moment, the great tale of our age is being written.
00:27I think it was only you who would put yourself in my power.
00:34Galadriel.
00:41It's about problem solving, too.
00:43Problem solving structurally, but also story-wise.
00:46You know, understanding what works
00:48because you're building it over such a long period.
00:51Can you talk with season two,
00:52what was the inherently the most challenging,
00:54but also the most satisfying ultimately?
00:57A really good question.
01:00You know, I think, you know,
01:02problem solving is potentially the best definition
01:05of what it is to be a producer.
01:07You know, you're hopefully, you know,
01:08identifying issues down the road
01:10and then preventing them from being issues
01:13in a way that would be catastrophic, right?
01:14Like, you know, it takes an army to make a show
01:17like the Rings of Power.
01:18You know, every kind of costume or craftsperson,
01:21you know, a camera operator, stunt people,
01:24you know, I mean, just goes on and on.
01:26Prosthetics, it is all the things, all the time.
01:30And that requires an enormous amount
01:32of coordination and logistics.
01:34In terms of season two, I would actually say
01:36one of the things we've really worked hard on
01:39is balancing all of our stories
01:41to try to make this season feel like it was all one story.
01:46And really working in editorial to have,
01:49anytime you're going from one story to another story
01:51that they're commenting on each other.
01:53The baton is hopefully being passed thematically
01:55or emotionally.
01:56You're going from, you know, a son lost in Middle Earth
01:58to his father over in Numenor.
02:01You know, or you're going from Sauron and Celebrimbor
02:04talking about Sauron, his aspiration to give rings to men.
02:09And then you're cutting to Farazan over in Numenor
02:12feeling that, boy, I'm king now, but I want more.
02:15So hopefully we're constantly, you know,
02:19not just answering questions
02:21and hopefully paying narratives off,
02:23but setting new things in motion
02:24and creating new connections between stories.
02:26And, you know, we've worked very, very hard
02:29to try and build this show to last.
02:32And if you like this season, or if you like the show,
02:35you know, maybe, you know, at some point you'll revisit it
02:38and watch it again.
02:39And hopefully there's more for you to see there.
02:41And, you know, we want it to be a meal
02:42that you can really sink your teeth into.
02:44And a lot of people work very, very hard
02:46to build that kind of depth into every scene,
02:48every frame, every episode.
02:49War has come to Middle-earth.
03:00This is the work of Sauron.
03:09Our armies cannot defeat him.
03:12Once the deceiver obtains a being's trust,
03:15he gains the ability to sculpt their very thoughts.
03:19No!
03:26But it's also about the thematics, the dynamics of power.
03:29It's called the Rings of Power,
03:30but it's about the power of responsibility,
03:32either, which is a producer as well,
03:34but also about the aspect of what good, evil,
03:38and just, you know, the in-between, the gray means.
03:42Either one of you, if you'd like to talk about that
03:45and how important that is to the progression
03:47of the whole entire idea as a series.
03:52Well, you know, power is an interesting question in Tolkien,
03:54you know, because there's sort of raw power
03:56in terms of, you know, armies and creatures and monsters,
04:02but that doesn't always actually win the day in Tolkien.
04:05You know, there's the power of friendship and fellowship,
04:08you know, which is characters staying true to each other
04:11over enormous odds and even having to forgive each other
04:15when there's been, you know, differences between them.
04:18And ultimately, that proves to be
04:20one of the strongest powers in Tolkien,
04:23is simple characters doing their best
04:25to, you know, shine in larger-than-life situations.
04:31That ends up being one of the greatest powers
04:33in Tolkien writ large,
04:35even when there are supernatural powers,
04:37you know, held by rings and wizards and Maiar,
04:40and, you know, very powerful beings.
04:45HALBRANK!
04:52Halbrank?
04:55Halbrank?
04:56Halbrank?
05:15Halbrank!
05:26Halbrank?
05:44I have walked through the dusts and the deserts
05:46of faraway lands
05:50in search of an artist
05:52possessing the craft to save all Middle-earth.
05:57A storm is coming, Celebrimbor.
06:02I can bring you the knowledge none other possesses.
06:06I can unlock your grandest abilities.
06:10And when our work is complete,
06:12never again will the world overlook you
06:15as the mere scion of Feanor,
06:18but forevermore revere you.
06:27The Lord of the Rings.
06:38Well, one thing I would say is, you know,
06:40one of the aspirations of the show
06:42from the very beginning
06:43and telling a story in this period
06:45of Middle-earth's history
06:47is that, you know, I think we feel like
06:50Lord of the Rings can sometimes get painted
06:52as white hats versus black hats, right?
06:54Hordes of evil creatures, you know,
06:56fighting good-hearted heroes.
06:59You know, but actually, you know,
07:00if you look a little deeper,
07:01Tolkien's really writing about temptation.
07:04He's writing about people struggling
07:05with the good and evil in themselves.
07:08It's not just all good versus all evil.
07:10There are, you know, even Frodo,
07:11the best of us all, is tempted by the ring.
07:14And fails.
07:15And fails.
07:16And this is an era of Middle-earth's history
07:18where peoples, whole races
07:20are being tempted by rings, right?
07:22In season two, Peter Mullen's character,
07:24the King of the Dwarves,
07:25he puts on one of Sauron's rings,
07:27hoping to heal his mountain and do good.
07:29He does do good, but there's a catch, right?
07:33Celebrimbor is one of the main characters
07:35of season two.
07:36He aspires to create beauty.
07:37He aspires to heal the world.
07:39He aspires to help the dwarves,
07:40to empower men.
07:42But his reach is exceeding his grasp
07:44and he's making a devil's bargain to do it.
07:47So we're really interested in a show
07:49that's exploring varieties of good
07:51and varieties of evil
07:52and good characters who are tempted to evil
07:54and evil characters who have noble aspirations.
07:57Adar is ostensibly an orc,
07:59but he wants a home for his people.
08:01You know, and that's a sticky question
08:03for an audience to think about.
08:04How do I feel about that?
08:06Maybe they do deserve a home.
08:07Gosh, what does that even mean?
08:10So we're trying to go into
08:12thematically rich territory
08:14and we feel like Tolkien goes there.
08:17The King of the Southlands
08:19turned himself in, Lord Father.
08:21Says he wants to negotiate.
08:30Let my people go.
08:36Or yours will die.
08:41My people defeated the men of these lands.
08:45We defeated the elves who came to their aid.
08:48We even defeated their allies,
08:51the men from beyond the sea.
08:59There is no one left for us to fear.
09:03There is one.
09:06Since Galadriel's defeat,
09:08she's sought out a new ally,
09:12an ancient sorcerer,
09:14to instruct the elves in forging a new weapon.
09:19One you first told her about.
09:22The power over flesh.
09:25But it's also the one thing like you mentioned, Adar,
09:28that aspect, the tragic flaw,
09:31about how much he loves,
09:32he almost loves so much it kills him.
09:35You know, could you sort of talk about
09:37looking at those tragic flaws
09:38where you're talking about Sauron, you know,
09:40because he has one himself.
09:42Galadriel, you know, even the elven smith.
09:46I always can't pronounce his name.
09:48You know, but all these things, you know,
09:50they're motivated by love and passion to a fault.
09:54Well, Adar, I think is a perfect example of that,
09:57you know, where, you know,
09:58he sees four moves down the chessboard.
10:00He knows that if Sauron, you know,
10:01is really allowed to come back to Middle-earth
10:03and come into full power,
10:04that it's going to be exactly what we know
10:06eventually does happen with the orcs,
10:07where they end up being cannon fodder,
10:09who are enslaved to the whims of an evil dark lord.
10:12You know, so he's trying so hard to make that,
10:14to prevent that from happening,
10:16that he ultimately alienates
10:17the very people he's fighting for.
10:18He alienates all of his children
10:19to the point where Sauron himself
10:21is able to manipulate his children
10:22into killing him.
10:23You work so hard to prevent it from happening,
10:25he forces it to happen.
10:26I mean, that's like the perfect irony, right?
10:28Like, you know,
10:29we're always looking for things like that.
10:31And the other thing too
10:32is we're dealing with Sauron.
10:33Sauron is such a great villain,
10:37where he takes your strength
10:39and uses it to his own end.
10:41He doesn't, you know, play upon your weakness.
10:43He, you know,
10:45Adar's love for his children
10:46becomes the way he undoes Adar
10:48and takes over his army, right?
10:49Celebrimbor's, you know,
10:50love of craft and desire to do good,
10:53it plays right into his hand.
10:55Galadriel's desire to defeat evil
10:57empowers Sauron.
10:59You know, so again,
11:01there's quite complex and naughty thematics
11:04happening with each of these characters.
11:05And Sauron's playing on all of them.
11:08Do you remember those words?
11:11A power that will allow him
11:12to use your children
11:13as slaves in his army once more.
11:17Set my people free
11:18and I will tell you where he can be found.
11:21So you can destroy him
11:23and rid us both of his evil.
11:27No.
11:29Your Majesty.
11:32You will tell me everything you think
11:34you know of this sorcerer now.
11:38Or I will spill the words from your throat.
11:41If I die,
11:43all that I know dies with me.
11:48You can't kill me.
11:52In time,
11:53you will beg me to.
11:55And my last question,
11:56if they'll let me, thank you,
11:57is there's an intimacy to the brutality.
12:00I've always said this.
12:01I said this when actually
12:02the original films came out
12:04to Jackson and everybody like it.
12:06There's an intimacy of brutality,
12:08but there's a brutality
12:09in the intimacy of all these characters.
12:12And the great thing that you guys are able to do
12:14is you create these large scale things,
12:16but then the intimate elements of the moment
12:18really come through
12:20to give you a little,
12:22a sense of empathy for these people
12:24on a very basic human level,
12:26even though it's a fantasy.
12:27Can you talk about that
12:28and the importance of that in the build?
12:30Yeah.
12:31Yeah.
12:32I think the prime example of that season,
12:34season two is the,
12:35I call it Brimbore Sauron story,
12:37you know,
12:38where there is a brutal intimacy
12:40to that sort of twisted bromance almost,
12:43you know,
12:44where Sauron,
12:45you know,
12:46it's a Faustian bargain.
12:47He comes into the workshop.
12:48He's like,
12:49look,
12:50you've been living in,
12:51in fan or shadow for all these years.
12:52You want to make something beautiful.
12:53I can give it to you.
12:54I'm your guy.
12:55Like I'm going to unlock your hidden genius.
12:56I'm going to turn you into the Elvin,
12:58you know,
12:59you know,
13:00you're going to be a fantasy.
13:01And,
13:02and,
13:03you know,
13:04by the time we're done,
13:05no one's going to even think about the Silmarils,
13:06you know,
13:07the rings of power are going to be the thing.
13:08And he gives them everything he promised,
13:09you know,
13:10but like,
13:11you know,
13:12watching the way he does it,
13:13you know,
13:14by systematically sort of manipulating him
13:15and gaslighting him and sort of like taking
13:16Caleb Brimbore,
13:17you know,
13:18down,
13:19you know,
13:20there's,
13:21there's an emotional violence to it.
13:22Yes.
13:23But then,
13:24but then when the physical violence comes,
13:25it's,
13:26it's quite gnarly,
13:27you know,
13:28and we're gone forever.
13:29And that's an important part of this,
13:30you know,
13:31part of middle-earth history.
13:32And it's an important part of the show.
13:33And we don't ever want it to be Pat or,
13:34or for shock value,
13:35or just for,
13:36you know,
13:37a kick,
13:38you know,
13:39it should be painful.
13:40And when Caleb Brimbore severs his own thumb,
13:41you know,
13:42we've watched it with an audience and it's like,
13:43you can't even,
13:44you can't even look at it.
13:45It's sort of the smallest act of violence in an
13:46episode with all these battles happening.
13:47But,
13:48but we,
13:49we,
13:50we want to have that.
13:51We want violence to have an impact.
13:52We want it to be upsetting.
13:53Sometimes it should be,
13:54you know,
13:55sort of like linked to violence across episodes.
13:56When you see collateral stream,
13:57Caleb Brimbore has nine arrows in him.
13:58There's nine rings for men.
13:59Caleb Brimbore ends up with nine fingers.
14:00Right.
14:01And so,
14:02I mean,
14:03there's like things that,
14:04you know,
14:05sort of like,
14:06you know,
14:07tell you what's coming before you see it.
14:08And then you actually see it.
14:09It's,
14:10it's,
14:11it's arresting.
14:12Salvan is my enemy.
14:13As much as yours,
14:14I can help you destroy him.
14:15I will not stop until he's dead.
14:16I will not stop.
14:17I will not stop.
14:18I will not stop.
14:19I will not stop.
14:20I will not stop.
14:21I will not stop.
14:22I will not stop.
14:24I will not stop until this is put right.
14:27Every soul,
14:28in the seen or unseen world,
14:30will know that it was you
14:31who was the architect of their demise.
14:34Don't cut the rope!