It was all glory and light(ness) when two-stroke streetbikes roamed the earth! But man did they make smoke. What would a modern two-stroke streetbike be like? Do we have the technology to make a high-powered two-stroke emissions legal? Technical Editor Kevin Cameron and Editor-in-Chief Mark Hoyer talk about what a modern two-stroke would need to make it to a road near you. Kevin's conclusions might surprise you!
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https://octane.co/flex/1?a=171
Illustration by Jim Hatch
Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/6CLI74xvMBFLDOC1tQaCOQ
Read more from Cycle World: https://www.cycleworld.com/
Buy Cycle World Merch: https://teespring.com/stores/cycleworld
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SportsTranscript
00:00:00Hey, it's the cycle world podcast. I'm Mark where the editor-in-chief Kevin cameras with me our technical editor our topic this week
00:00:08Is what if the two-stroke had survived?
00:00:10What if we could have road going two-strokes that met emissions and made all the power in the world? I was thinking Kevin about
00:00:18500 CC Grand Prix bikes you were talking about 125
00:00:22That made 60 horsepower at the end of that class 60 horsepower out of a single cylinder
00:00:27100
00:00:28close to it 125 CC engine that weighed mere pounds and I thought about you know, the heyday of
00:00:35500s when they weighed
00:00:36286 pounds and they were making less sometimes before the
00:00:42The limit was imposed. Yeah by the timid gentleman. Yes
00:00:47But a limit of 286 pounds and they were making to something to you know, let's call it, you know
00:00:54Call it to 30 to 40
00:00:57I mean imagine imagine and we you know kind of pipey, you know pretty broad power at the end. They were working on it
00:01:03You know, yes
00:01:06Several technologies. Yeah better than 1990 when everybody was getting spit off and oh, yeah
00:01:131990 was the beginning of the controls and
00:01:19The first thing they did was they imposed
00:01:22Torque limits in lower gears
00:01:24So that you wouldn't have the full spectrum
00:01:28From from zero to 190 horsepower in a quarter turn throttle. Yeah, there's some excitement for you
00:01:35Now that was racing though. That was racing and we are we are singing the benefits of
00:01:41An organ that plays one note, maybe two, right?
00:01:46Expansion chamber doing its thing
00:01:48But two-stroke street bikes, you know, we had the RZ 350
00:01:50That was the last thing that we could get of any note in the United States and a good running RZ particularly once you know
00:01:57They made it pass and it ran pretty well. They had catalyzers in the in the chambers and
00:02:03It was a yeah hot ones people people notice the heat but it ran
00:02:07Okay, and you know everybody was kind of tearing that stuff off and thrown on your Tommy Crawford's or your two me's or you name it
00:02:15Just put somebody's name on a a big sausage and bolted on to your two-stroke and start doing pretty nice
00:02:21No way you went and they were making tons of power. You know those 350s man, they ran great
00:02:26They were great street bike and they were so easy to get more. Yeah, really?
00:02:31I think about the two-stroke from the very beginning was that if you had some clue what?
00:02:37You were doing what two-strokes wanted
00:02:40What you were doing what two-strokes wanted
00:02:44You just could make yourself feel like a wizard
00:02:47It was crazy. Yeah, and of course it was intoxicating
00:02:52We loved it. Yeah
00:02:54and
00:02:56but what we wanted to talk about there was a you know as emissions were coming around and as
00:03:02manufacturers were looking for
00:03:04Emissions regulations were coming around and as manufacturers were looking for ways
00:03:09To make a lighter faster
00:03:12better operating more efficient car or motorcycle
00:03:17There was a ton of research done into two-strokes and there were some new technologies that came around
00:03:26We'll talk about orbital all that. There's direct injection. We're getting port injection from
00:03:32KTM and the transfer ports and
00:03:35Oiling but you know two-strokes have a we should talk about I guess the host of
00:03:39Difficulties that make a conventional two-stroke so hard to get through any emissions. Yes sniffing at all and then strategies to fix
00:03:48This and yeah, well, here's it here it goes the piston is sliding down the cylinder and
00:03:56The pressure is falling because work is being done on the crankshaft. So the
00:04:01Combustion gas is losing energy losing pressure
00:04:05temperature is dropping and now the piston edge begins to uncover the exhaust port and
00:04:11What the Germans call house poof house poof love to say that house poof. It begins and
00:04:21In a few degrees
00:04:23somewhere between 20 and 35 degrees
00:04:26The pressure in the cylinder is low enough that we could think about blowing in fresh charge
00:04:33well
00:04:35first early two-strokes were
00:04:38Made to be cheap made to be simple sell at a low price and when the FIM
00:04:45Admitted two-strokes on a displacement on an equal displacement basis in 1949
00:04:53The reason they did so was because
00:04:55These simple engines use the crankcase the motion of the underside of the piston
00:05:01They use the crankcase as the scavenge pump
00:05:05so when the piston goes up a port opens
00:05:09Air enters the carburetor picks up fuel. So the crankcase has air fuel mixture in it
00:05:16Piston comes back down
00:05:19closes off the inlet port the pressure in the crankcase rises and
00:05:23Meanwhile house poof is taking place the transfer ports open now
00:05:29You get this sudden inrush
00:05:33What's in rushing is mixture fuel and air together and
00:05:40The exhaust port is open
00:05:43So on the deflector piston engines that we talked about earlier
00:05:48a lot of
00:05:50Chain early chainsaw motors and outboard motors had a
00:05:55Deflector a fence on the piston. So that when the fresh charge came in it hit that and made a loop
00:06:03around the cylinder
00:06:05before it reached the exhaust port so that increased this the
00:06:09trapping efficiency the amount of charge that remained in the cylinder when the exhaust port shut and
00:06:14And
00:06:16Adolf Schneerle
00:06:18Made the flat-top two-stroke
00:06:21Concept he had a transfer port on either side of the exhaust
00:06:25Pointed away from the exhaust so that that directed the stream that made that same loop, but inevitably
00:06:32with
00:06:34fresh charge rubbing on
00:06:37Combustion cooled combustion gas
00:06:41Inert combustion product there's mixing
00:06:45when you when you move a
00:06:48Teaspoon back and forth in a cup of coffee with cream
00:06:52You can see the little vortices at the edges of the spoon. That's the mixing zone
00:06:58and so
00:06:59Well when you pour it in it's just like mixture going into a cylinder if you pour sure it makes that same loop
00:07:05Except rolling I always think of that when I pour cream into coffee
00:07:09In fact, I wish I were doing it now. You're special. That's what
00:07:15You have visions no one else has
00:07:18Anyway, no, I know there's a lot of two-stroke guys that feel this way. I mean they have the same the same view
00:07:26During this process
00:07:28The only way a two-stroke can work is to put the four
00:07:31necessary functions into two strokes, which means
00:07:35A couple of them have to be happening at the same time. So the exhaust port is open and we're trying to fill the cylinder
00:07:41We're losing
00:07:4330 or more
00:07:45percent of the fresh charge out the exhaust port and
00:07:50That's why if you have a really good running two-stroke
00:07:54it uses
00:07:56Its specific fuel consumption is 0.65 or in that range. Whereas a four-stroke is like 0.5
00:08:03And that is built in there's people have tried aiming the ports in all different ways and
00:08:12Probably they've used divining rods and consulted psychics
00:08:16but that charge loss is the big problem for two-strokes because it just comes smoking out of there and
00:08:24it smells like gasoline and maybe castor oil and
00:08:29Two-stroke people love that but the EPA is the sworn enemy of
00:08:36corrupt air
00:08:38so
00:08:39They have no choice but to say
00:08:41No way guys. You can't run this
00:08:44so
00:08:48People hit upon the idea of
00:08:53Scavenging with pure air and adding the fuel
00:08:57After the exhaust port has closed
00:09:01now a
00:09:03Swedish fellow named Hesselmann developed
00:09:08Back in the 1920s, I think a kind of
00:09:12Semi-diesel gasoline burner that
00:09:16injected fuel during the compression stroke and
00:09:20This is exactly what has had to happen with the orbital engine company
00:09:26Solution and the FICT injector is that they both spray into the combustion chamber?
00:09:33after the exhaust port has closed
00:09:37Every time you solve a problem
00:09:40It improves your view and as you look forward you see another problem holding you back and in this case
00:09:47that problem is
00:09:49that
00:09:51the exhaust port closes around 90 degrees before top center and
00:09:56Ignition is going to occur somewhere between
00:09:5930 and
00:10:0115 degrees before top center. So it's a very short time for those fuel droplets
00:10:08to evaporate and
00:10:10for that reason
00:10:12Special methods had to be developed to inject fuel in such a way that tiny droplets
00:10:19Hopefully around 10 microns a micron is 1 millionth of a meter
00:10:2610 micron droplets burn almost the same as
00:10:31completely evaporated
00:10:33fuel
00:10:35so
00:10:36You need this trick
00:10:39Injector to produce these tiny droplets that can evaporate before the spark comes because droplets can't burn
00:10:46There's no air in the droplet
00:10:49so
00:10:52The the orbital system
00:10:55was
00:10:56very clever it had a pre-chamber and
00:10:59the spray fuel in there and then a little poppet valve opens and
00:11:05The chamber is connected to the main combustion space by a small orifice
00:11:11That air entering the pre-chamber
00:11:14causes a speed of sound to be reached in that nozzle in that orifice and
00:11:20that breaks up fuel droplets like crazy and
00:11:25I once wrote a TDC about
00:11:28Picking through books that I have here that there's there's a book by Ludwig Prandtl
00:11:34who was one of the big aerodynamicists at early part of the of the 20th century and
00:11:40he produced he has a little formula for
00:11:43the droplet size
00:11:45resulting from entering an airstream at various speeds
00:11:49and you work through that and
00:11:51If you have a speed of sound you have 10 micron droplets, so
00:12:01That was one possibility, but it requires an air compressor to supply air for the for the little poppet valve that
00:12:09Reaches speed of sound in the orifice you have to have
00:12:13This pre-chamber that is you can't just drill a hole in your cylinder head thread it and screw something in
00:12:20For that kind of injector the Ficht F-I-C-H-T
00:12:27I think it was invented in Austria or
00:12:30overseas in any case and
00:12:33It has a powerful solenoid in it
00:12:36So that it it just pounds the fuel through a nozzle and breaks it down to about 40 microns
00:12:44Now at the time this work was going on
00:12:48Late 80s
00:12:50A
00:12:53Normal Napa fuel injector that you buy down at the store
00:12:57the droplet the size of droplets in there from coming from that are 50 to 150 and
00:13:03That just that didn't work. They didn't evaporate by the time the spark occurred
00:13:09The orbital system was bought by Mercury Marine
00:13:13Detroit
00:13:15Auto manufacturers bought orbital licenses because in the late 80s
00:13:22There were I counted
00:13:2426
00:13:25Automobile companies that were investigating two-stroke engines because they were 40% less bulky
00:13:33more powerful for their weight and
00:13:36In one respect they were outstanding
00:13:40in low emissions
00:13:43of nitrogen oxides and
00:13:44The reason is that every two-stroke has natural EGR. EGR is exhaust gas recirculation
00:13:52which means
00:13:54That exhaust gas from the previous cycle is
00:13:59Preventing the combustion of the next cycle from reaching
00:14:04the 2600 degree Fahrenheit threshold of
00:14:08Nitrogen oxide formation. So and nitrogen oxides are the are the hardest to clean up
00:14:15So
00:14:17the
00:14:20Yeah
00:14:21In the 1970s the Ford 460 460 cubic inch
00:14:25V8 pretty nice motor in 68
00:14:28It had 10 to 1 compression and by I think 72 is a single year. It was terrible low compression
00:14:33They had huge dog dishes in the tops of the Pistons
00:14:38the 79 Lincoln town car I think was rated at a hundred and sixty or a hundred and eighty horsepower out of a
00:14:45460 cubic inch V8 and it was they were you know, they were working with carburetors and vacuum and
00:14:52They wanted to reduce the compression ratio so that the flame temperature would not create a lot of nitrogen oxides, right?
00:14:59and so they found you know by the 80s I use this because I have a 460 and I've read about it, but
00:15:06They have an 8.8 to 1 in the injected motors and like the 89
00:15:10It's roughly 8.8 to 1 and they were able to bring the compression back
00:15:15What you know using an EGR system and EFI and so they're running that inert gas
00:15:21into the chamber at part throttle
00:15:24To essentially lower the compression when you don't need all the power. Yes. It's just it's inert. It's already been burned
00:15:31They're taking it from way down the exhaust system
00:15:33So it's relatively cool by the time it gets up to the intake and then when you mash it
00:15:40EGR turns off and you get all the 8.8 to 1 you want and you're pulling your trailer and it works great and then you go
00:15:46Part throttle and you get pretty good mileage and so forth. So it's not the worst thing ever. No now
00:15:52Here's the here's the crisis that faced the two-stroke makers namely
00:15:58Yamaha Suzuki and Kawasaki
00:16:01They
00:16:02Knew their engineers knew all about Hesselmann engines. They knew that in
00:16:091973 the French firm Motobunk, Bacon
00:16:13which
00:16:15Produced the Mobi Solek. Mobi. No, not the Mobi Solek. Mobilette
00:16:23Moped
00:16:24Millions built. Oh, yeah had one. Yeah and a Puk
00:16:29They built a
00:16:30350 Kawasaki basically, it was an inline triple
00:16:34Looked a lot like the Kawasaki and they gave it this
00:16:38direct injection system that injected fuel after the exhaust ports had closed
00:16:45and
00:16:47They didn't get it working to anyone's satisfaction
00:16:51But it was an important effort because someone had said let's try this on a motorcycle two-stroke
00:16:58and
00:17:01You can bet that there were a lot of dinos humming through the night with prototype this and prototype that
00:17:07Certainly the auto manufacturers were doing it
00:17:10But here's the problem
00:17:12The auto manufacturers have billions of dollars
00:17:17From which to draw R&D budgets to meet emissions
00:17:22Many fewer motorcycles are sold and they're selling prices lower in general than that of cars
00:17:29so in an R&D war
00:17:33It is the automotive side that is going to come up with a solution
00:17:39first if at all
00:17:42so
00:17:43The motorcycle companies sort of looked at there. They pulled their pockets inside out. Here's our R&D budget
00:17:49Yeah, do you think we're gonna spend all of this on?
00:17:54A gamble that we can solve direct injection emissions problems
00:18:01No way
00:18:03What we're gonna do is we're gonna go to the Napa store and we're gonna buy the solutions that the automobile
00:18:10Industries all over the world have already created and that's why the two-stroke
00:18:17after
00:18:181984 in the US
00:18:22ceased to exist as a new vehicle on the highways
00:18:27You could go on riding your your two-stroke because it was a
00:18:32Illegal vehicle it had been approved
00:18:36But two-strokes in general did not go forward from that point
00:18:45Yamaha tried on the RD 350
00:18:49the RZ 350
00:18:51Catalytic converters, which basically meant that 30% of the fuel was being burnt
00:18:57Just under your feet gets pretty hot. They did. They sold those in 85 as well
00:19:02So our last our last glorious year was 85 and nobody wanted
00:19:07to know how it would feel to
00:19:10Crash and tumble along and have the motorcycle end up across the back of your legs, for example
00:19:16so
00:19:18That was the end of that and
00:19:23The automotive manufacturers gave up their two-stroke research around 1990
00:19:30Because they came
00:19:31basically to the same conclusion
00:19:34Safety in numbers will stay together
00:19:38Will use the same solutions and the EPA will regard that as you know, they're doing all they can
00:19:46This is what results from it and of course same thing we have euro one two, three four and so forth so
00:19:58Yet there was
00:19:59There has always been interest in what if?
00:20:04We could develop the orbital system the fixed system some
00:20:10other system
00:20:12such that we could
00:20:14Inject the fuel either after the exhaust port has closed or
00:20:19Into a part of the transfer streams that can't reach the exhaust port by the time it closes. This is something that
00:20:26KTM and
00:20:28Bombardier I think have explored
00:20:31They call it indirect
00:20:33fuel injection
00:20:34giving it time to
00:20:36Atomize the fuel so it's yes a bit more time
00:20:40It's and therefore requiring a less
00:20:43Exotic and therefore less expensive
00:20:45injector injector, so
00:20:48If you look at high-performance like there was a period of time in world superbike
00:20:52Where Ducati was running their v-twins and we were seeing photographs of?
00:20:59these spectacular
00:21:01Injector systems and so there was an injector down by the valve
00:21:06That would run up to a certain RPM
00:21:08And then they would turn on the showerhead and that the trumpet would be sitting there in the showerhead was
00:21:14hovering over
00:21:16inches
00:21:17And the reason was is that an extremely high RPM?
00:21:20They wanted to inject the fuel farther away from the chamber to give it more time to mix up
00:21:27Yeah, and we all think of this stuff is happening instantly, but it doesn't happen instantly
00:21:31It everything takes a little bit of time
00:21:32just like you were talking about you have a very narrow window between the exhaust port closing and
00:21:37When you have to light the spark to get enough combustion pressure when the crank is turned
00:21:42to be in the happy place to take the best advantage of that pressure rise and
00:21:48These things take time so injecting the fuel
00:21:51Indirectly like into a transfer port where the velocity is very high very similar to a showerhead in concept
00:21:57Yep, and it's farther away from when it's being needing to be lit
00:22:01Yeah, and so there's time for it to kind of like mix up
00:22:04It's like we just pour the cream in the coffee eventually it will but if you get spoon in there, and you mix it up
00:22:11Homogeneous charge yes, so
00:22:16There were the people who have a lot of experience running
00:22:21Either direct or indirect injection engines the crankcase
00:22:25Temperature rises because there's no longer fuel evaporating in there and as you know
00:22:31A drop of alcohol on your palm to banish the deadly kovat virus is a cooling effect
00:22:39and
00:22:43Already
00:22:45Honda in their last NSR 500s had begun water cooling the crankcase not because they were using
00:22:54direct injection, but because
00:22:56The hotter the crankcase runs the lower the density of the air and fuel
00:23:03That enter the cylinder if the crankcase is cooler. You get a big
00:23:08Denser charge and therefore more power
00:23:11So there I was in the Motegi Museum looking at this thing with a stupid look on my face, and I'm thinking oh
00:23:20It has water cool crankcase
00:23:22So
00:23:24that's one thing that would have to be considered another thing to consider if
00:23:29We created a future two-stroke with
00:23:33Magic injection. How do we lubricate the bottom end and?
00:23:38Not have that lubricant appear as an unacceptable
00:23:43unburned hydrocarbon in the exhaust
00:23:46So for anybody you know kids if you've never done
00:23:49Pre-mix or you haven't poured oil in an injection tank a two-stroke relies on air fuel and oil mixed together
00:23:56and
00:23:58Passing through the crankcase so, you know with the piston comes down in the cylinder
00:24:03It's making a vacuum in the cylinder and that's how we're getting air fuel into the cylinder
00:24:08But as the pistons moving down in the crankcase, you have to think of the opposite effect. It is pressurized rising. Yes
00:24:15Because the piston is moving down and that's what's pushing
00:24:18the mixture through the transfer ports which are up the sides of the cylinders and blowing in and
00:24:23So the piston goes down and it's pushed all the mixture in and now it's coming back up and it's gonna cover the exhaust port
00:24:31And it's gonna squeeze and pop
00:24:32you know light that fire bang and it's gonna it's gonna make you popcorn sound and and as the piston is coming up to
00:24:40Close the exhaust port and make compression
00:24:43It's making a vacuum in the crankcase now
00:24:46and so however it is whether it's a disc valve or a reed valve something is allowing the air fuel to get into the crankcase and
00:24:53When you won't let it blow back out and won't let it so the reed valve is a check valve little flaps on it
00:24:59and it would
00:25:01And it would keep the stuff from coming back out the carburetor as the
00:25:06transfers were transferring into the chamber and
00:25:10That's where the oil was you put oil on your gas and it lubricated the bottom and all your
00:25:14Needles because the bottom end is all rolling element bearings
00:25:18It doesn't need very little they need very little oil. Whereas a plane bearing
00:25:24Such as the journal bearings in automobile and motorcycle engines of modern times
00:25:30requires pumped
00:25:32filtered cooled lubricant
00:25:36It rides on a wedge folks, you know what happens like that's the asperities podcast Kevin is very
00:25:43So got to keep that wedge tall enough so that it's off the asperities so
00:25:49That oil that is mixed with the fuel
00:25:52To lubricate the bottom end goes out through the exhaust port or it gets burned or it gets partly burned
00:26:00under
00:26:01Those conditions the people up in Ann Arbor the EPA are going to detect it as unburned hydrocarbons and
00:26:11The unburned hydrocarbon levels keep
00:26:15being reduced of course because
00:26:18They couldn't clean up automobile exhaust overnight it it's taken years and
00:26:24And
00:26:26They just want to keep
00:26:28Cities from turning into the I I stood in
00:26:321971 I stood in the paddock area
00:26:36That Ontario Motor Speedway and looked straight up and I saw these long
00:26:41slow moving fingers of greenish gas
00:26:46So people who think who think that auto emissions, it's all a hoax
00:26:54It's no method by those dirty greens. They tell you what they're mean. I grew up in California, Southern, California and
00:27:02We're my dad was a private pilot and we were flying back at dusk
00:27:07We were coming back into our local airport, which was Fullerton and a Cessna turbo 210 t2 10 retractable gear
00:27:16And we're we're descending at sunset and we're going through layers of different colored gases
00:27:23We're looking I'm looking out and I'm seeing oh, there's purple. There's in something that looks sulfury, you know, kind of a
00:27:31Sickly looking yellow
00:27:34And we're coming coming down and that's that's how it was and you know in
00:27:391978 and we would have times where we couldn't have recessed outside because of smog alerts
00:27:44And so it's really you know, that it's been game-changing the ability to to keep the tailpipe stuff clean
00:27:50We drive zillions of more miles the population is probably doubled
00:27:55Since then and and the air is significantly cleaner. So we appreciate all the efforts, although we still like putting a pipe on something
00:28:04Going racing just having pure, you know, here's here's an example in
00:28:101995
00:28:12year one
00:28:14The limit for unburned hydrocarbons was three grams per kilometer
00:28:20a gram a small
00:28:22And
00:28:24this year
00:28:26Euro 5 plus it's down to 1 10th of a gram
00:28:31Wow
00:28:3330 times
00:28:34It's 1 30th
00:28:37Now of what it what it used to be so you can be sure that lubricating the crankcase by
00:28:44squirring oil into the bearings with tiny metering pump
00:28:48It's going to be detected in Ann Arbor and they're not going to allow it so
00:28:54Yeah, even with the great oils that we have because back in you know when I was a kid you put two-stroke oil on something
00:28:59What did you get big plumes of mosquito fog like big white plumes of smoke?
00:29:05and you almost couldn't get rid of it and then they started getting all these synthetics and they
00:29:11Designed these oils that would come out really clean. You didn't have the big
00:29:15The big trail of smoke, but they're still there just because you can't see him doesn't mean it's not there. Yes
00:29:20So, how do we get rid of that?
00:29:23well
00:29:25There's no rule that says that a two-stroke has to get it
00:29:30Receive its air from the crankcase
00:29:33operating as a pump for example
00:29:36the 71 series
00:29:38Detroit diesel truck engines had those big
00:29:42Roots blowers on the side of them, which were such a big number in drag racing for years and years
00:29:48671 blower
00:29:50671 blower, that's right
00:29:52It meant six cylinders of 71 cubic inches each and that blower was driven by the engine
00:29:59Okay, we can do that with a two-stroke. We can have a separate blower
00:30:03We could have an electric blower as Honda showed at the recent EICMA show
00:30:09We could have a centrifugal blower. We could have all kinds of blowers
00:30:16DKW had a piston blower for a time in the late 1930s was much bigger than the power piston a big old
00:30:25Puffing away, so
00:30:28if we
00:30:30Supply the scavenger from a separate blower
00:30:34Then the crankcase doesn't have to have fuel going through it
00:30:38That means we can have a four-stroke style crankcase that is lubricated by
00:30:44pumped
00:30:45recirculating oil
00:30:49So when Ford was researching
00:30:52possible two-stroke
00:30:53Compact two-strokes for little cars of the future. One of the problems they identified was rusting of
00:31:01the crankshaft bearings
00:31:03During long periods of storage. Oh, I'm flying to Europe. I'm gonna leave my car in the parking structure for two months
00:31:10Yeah opening up a vintage two-stroke man. It's a gamble. You don't know what there's a water line in there on the flywheel
00:31:17Oh, man
00:31:18You don't know what people have done
00:31:21Anyway, I'm sure that's what happened to my RD 350s bearings is it came out of the Bay Area and
00:31:27I'm sure that once I got it running. I was running on rust
00:31:31Yeah, it ran along pretty good for a while
00:31:33And then it started making choo-choo sounds and if you've never heard the sound of bearings going out
00:31:37It's sort of this sort of I don't know. It's a maracas maracas meat
00:31:42Train sound sometimes there's a little squealing too with if there's cages breaking up. So
00:31:49I
00:31:51Imagine a future two-stroke that has a trouble-free
00:31:56Bottom end no more none of this stuff about oh, I got 850 miles on the crank
00:32:01I'm gonna have to change it which we did all the time in racing
00:32:06Instead what they say today is pull any engine
00:32:11Lately deposited in the junkyard and you'll find that the bottom end is no problem
00:32:18The failure that caused that car to be junked is somewhere else. So it's in the
00:32:25Long-lasting bottom end with a two-stroke top end and
00:32:32There's no need for a
00:32:35biconical
00:32:36expansion chamber or tuned pipe
00:32:39because now we're doing we're
00:32:43Moving air with an external blower
00:32:45so we don't need the combination of the crankcase as a pump and the exhaust pipe as a
00:32:52An acoustic supercharger who which are cooperating to move air into the cylinder
00:33:00So what is the power band going to be like if we no longer have the one note samba exhaust pipe
00:33:08our
00:33:10notional
00:33:12Future two-stroke is going to pull like a 671 diesel
00:33:18It's going to have torque everywhere
00:33:21Because we're blowing the air into it. We're injecting the fuel. We don't have to turn it at a tremendous speed
00:33:28Because the thing is going to develop some pressure
00:33:32Toyota
00:33:34Prototyped a two-stroke six-cylinder pickup truck engine and
00:33:40It outpulled V8s like crazy because
00:33:46V8 has
00:33:48four power strokes per revolution the two-stroke six
00:33:55Has six and
00:34:01It was
00:34:03abandoned
00:34:04But the way it worked was it had valves in the head and I think it had
00:34:11Cylinder ports down down near bottom center, but maybe not I'm not sure about that
00:34:16but at any rate they had developed this thing to a considerable level where it performed well and
00:34:24a modern two-stroke for
00:34:28motorcycle
00:34:30Would likewise perform well, it would be a torque monster
00:34:35I
00:34:37Remember talking with an old gentleman who had
00:34:41recently restored
00:34:44An ancient Indian and
00:34:47He wasn't accustomed. He was a modern motorcyclist. He rode modern bikes
00:34:54he wasn't accustomed to a
00:34:58Volkswagen or Harley Davidson like cam profile
00:35:02Camp timings which basically
00:35:06Open and close at top center bottom center
00:35:10Tremendous torque at the bottom
00:35:12So he said I'm I'm riding this thing around the yard and I began to fall over and I took a handful
00:35:18Because that's what your reflex tells you to do with the modern bike
00:35:22And he said I just nearly came a cropper in a big way because it just started pulling like crazy
00:35:30From close to zero rpm
00:35:35Because its cylinder filling process
00:35:38was not dependent on keeping the
00:35:42Intake valves open past bottom dead center or a lot of tuned exhaust header length and all this business
00:35:49it was just a big old air pump and
00:35:53That's what the engine we're discussing here
00:35:57would be like
00:35:58But would it please those?
00:36:01people
00:36:02who want
00:36:04Kevin Schwantz in some other reality
00:36:07to be winning races by doing wild and crazy things on
00:36:13a Suzuki 500 to show
00:36:18Probably not probably not
00:36:21because
00:36:22It may even be that in some future time. The motorcycle will be at risk
00:36:28for its very existence because you can be sure that in the
00:36:34in Brussels in some
00:36:37agency there they collect statistics on
00:36:41everything to do with motor vehicle fatalities and
00:36:45The numbers aren't good. So that's why the industry works hard
00:36:51to give riders
00:36:53The best vehicle the most easily controllable
00:36:57Most stable vehicle possible. I wish the people in Brussels Brussels wouldn't measure the rewards
00:37:03of riding. Yes. Well, that's that's the difficulty with with
00:37:10Bureaucrats is that they see
00:37:12They see the numbers and they act on that that is their reality
00:37:18They're not saying to themselves. Yeah, but what about Kevin Schwantz?
00:37:24People wanted to be him
00:37:27Yeah, I guess that's when we dream about a street going to stroke we think about
00:37:31having that, you know, maybe getting a little bit more torque off the bottom, but having that
00:37:37that point where the
00:37:40everything resonates in harmony and
00:37:43Things go crazy, you know
00:37:45750 the torque doubled at 90
00:37:489300 and that's why
00:37:50Mike Baldwin said ride it in the linear range. That is never let the tack needle drop below
00:37:569300 because then to get back you'll have to jump go through this steep torque rise
00:38:02Yeah, that is just rubbing its little hands together. I'm gonna put you in the gravel. Well, it's
00:38:08You know, let's see. What would you say about my RD 350?
00:38:12Seven to nine I think is what you said. We're seven to ten
00:38:1675 to 10 something like that, you know offhandedly told me I'd have to replace the ignition because the
00:38:23Big and heavy the rotors big and heavy and it'll walk off when you spin it past the red line the normal red line
00:38:29So yeah, great
00:38:33That torque curve thing is
00:38:37Interesting because
00:38:39We've talked about this before Don Kinney once told me I was wrong
00:38:42For Formula Extreme with a shortened chassis. Yep, rad grieves his bike and I was riding it
00:38:49At Willow Springs and it was completely overwhelming because it would come up in the power and it's a high boost engine. So it's
00:38:55It's pretty darn abundant, but this was pretty hopped up as well
00:38:58So it was terrifying because it was it would just come on, you know
00:39:03And Don said no no
00:39:06I'm not gonna do it. I'm not gonna do it. I'm not gonna do it
00:39:09Yeah, and Don said no no, he says run it a gear higher and
00:39:15It was genius because it's on the date to the downward slope of the torque curve at higher RPM
00:39:21Yeah, and therefore it wasn't as it was winding up. The torque was reducing so it had plenty of torque
00:39:26You're not gonna go slower and you could keep up with it. You were yeah, you were just lowering your risk
00:39:31So yeah having a torque curve double at 9,500 or within 2 rpm
00:39:36As they do or it just kind of goes
00:39:41Was another one who said the same thing that Mike Bowman did he said
00:39:45ride it above the
00:39:48Exhaust pipe threshold so that you're in the linear zone where the torque is is
00:39:54Doesn't do anything crazy
00:39:56Doesn't suddenly jump up like a bill spike that comes up out of your chair
00:40:01so
00:40:04These are these were top riders
00:40:08saying
00:40:09That these motors were not
00:40:11rideable unless you
00:40:14use special techniques
00:40:16now
00:40:18That's fun to read about
00:40:20it's it's
00:40:23The stuff of myth
00:40:26But
00:40:28It's not good for going down the street for
00:40:32Gummies bears
00:40:35Because it commands your entire attention and
00:40:43People
00:40:47It's charming for short periods of time absolutely yes, well and good old tall story he said
00:40:55something like
00:40:57A
00:41:00Continuous happiness
00:41:01Doesn't exist. We have to be satisfied with flashes of happiness and
00:41:08We remember and treasure them
00:41:11so in a way that
00:41:14To stroke era that's some of us. Why does suffering why does suffering make the best stories though? Why why?
00:41:22Because it's it's everyone's story
00:41:24Yeah
00:41:25Yeah, it's our it's our universal coming out of commonality. You're right
00:41:31So let's I would like to go back in inventory what we are talking about
00:41:36So we have a two-stroke the classic two-stroke, which is some roller bearings. It's pumping itself
00:41:42we put a lightweight pipe on it and we have a carburetor and
00:41:46It's incredibly lightweight and terribly simple
00:41:50So now we're trading we we are not lubricating by pouring oil in our gas where we're having a oil pump
00:41:57yep, and we're
00:42:00Carrying quarts of oil. So there's a you know, there's a mechanical weight penalty. They're a little bit more complexity. We're gonna probably
00:42:07Cool the crankcases liquidly maybe maybe and then
00:42:12Induction now, so the bottom end of the two-stroke is now like a four-stroke and we're not having our oil issues
00:42:18We're just pumping oil and and as we have, you know, I'll make sure in the crankcase. Yeah, I've got a terrible
00:42:24you know 2004 2000 2004
00:42:28Chevy Colorado with the five-cylinder in the bottom end is
00:42:33This oil tight doesn't burn a drop oil pressure is great like it's 205 thousand miles, which is a miracle
00:42:38Yeah, so yeah, it's crazy
00:42:40Yeah, so yeah, it's great. So the bottom end is four-stroke
00:42:44Essentially and we've added complexity and weight and then an induction we need now
00:42:49We need a supercharger could be electric if you haven't seen the the Honda electric supercharged v3 podcast
00:42:55It's in the past
00:42:56Go go check it out
00:42:58and we talked about all the things that could do which are highly applicable here because that's how I would want to do it as
00:43:03electric like it's
00:43:04The thing about this electric supercharger you may recall if you've seen that video is that
00:43:12The response time to the pressure you want is extremely small
00:43:18Because they've they've put this
00:43:22Switched reluctance motor on there that is can run to 80 80
00:43:29mm solid
00:43:32It's it's
00:43:36No, no turbo lag
00:43:38so to speak so
00:43:41This device is eminently controllable because it is electrical
00:43:46Electrical devices are controlled by little transistor switches
00:43:50Which are obeying commands from our fingers dancing on a keyboard or from sensors built into throttles
00:43:59so
00:44:00This is all eminently doable
00:44:05Yeah, so we're gonna add this motor maybe a little electrical to supply the amps necessary to make that
00:44:1180,000 rpm thing run the psi that we need which you know, probably moderate low pressure probably six pounds and do it
00:44:19and so six psi and
00:44:22Then how are we getting the mixture in to the cylinder and sealing it off? How does that working?
00:44:28Well, we're
00:44:30We can either
00:44:32carburete through the blower
00:44:34You know before the blower because that'll mix it up, right?
00:44:37That's what they did with aircraft engines on big radials as they put it in and the supercharger mixed it all up
00:44:43in fact at the end they
00:44:45Injected into a ring on the supercharger rotor that had little passages that went out
00:44:52To a part of the rotor while it's spinning
00:44:55That is just below the speed of sound so that those fuel droplets coming out kind of went
00:45:00Oh, where am I and we're immediately broken into tiny?
00:45:05Particles. So yeah, that was good
00:45:08Or we could we could inject the fuel
00:45:13It's there's so many options but the problem is
00:45:17Does anyone have this as a goal will it make anybody money
00:45:22Because things that don't make people money don't command a lot of R&D. We're just talking about art Kevin
00:45:32The art of the two-stroke the art of the future two-stroke so
00:45:38Are we using read valves, how's that working?
00:45:40How are we getting this the air into the cylinder and then we're having an exhaust port that we could use a power valve
00:45:46There's a trunk around the cylinders, which is kept at air at scavenger pressure
00:45:53so when the transfer ports open air rushes in from that trunk got it and
00:46:00That's the way it worked on on
00:46:03two-stroke diesels so
00:46:08So essentially we're maintaining the transfers, yep
00:46:13But there they may be a ring of ports completely around the cylinder and
00:46:20Quite load quite not sticking up too much from from bottom center because as you said everything happens so fast
00:46:28Yeah, so the air enters the cylinder. Okay, so we come up on compression
00:46:34We've got fresh mixture. We come up on compression and the the dome the combustion chamber could be the same as it is now
00:46:43Well, we might want to put the exhaust valves up there. Okay, so we're not gonna use anything about that
00:46:49the great thing about that is
00:46:52unlike
00:46:53the
00:46:54Cylinder wall port of a two-stroke which is open throughout the whole cylinder filling process
00:47:00We can close mechanical exhaust valves and blow positive pressure into the cylinder through the transfers
00:47:07hmm
00:47:08We can puff it up
00:47:10Okay, so we have a combustion chamber but it only really truly needs one valve to make get the job done
00:47:16whatever it needs to
00:47:19Operate at the speed we we need it to you know, I don't know what that would be at this point, but
00:47:29There have been engines with four exhaust valves in the head and
00:47:35That might be one way to do it that those huge marine diesels
00:47:40Have the valves exhaust valves in the head
00:47:42valve or valves and a ring of fresh charge ports at bottom center that are supplied through a
00:47:51through a trunk that encircles the cylinders and is kept flowing by
00:47:58external blower and
00:48:01Often in those big marine diesels, it's a turbo blower because otherwise that energy in the exhaust
00:48:07would just
00:48:09be lost
00:48:10This way it has been put to human purpose. Yeah
00:48:16And they're doing that they've done that in Formula One too, they've they've used turbos to drive generators
00:48:24During that sort of hybrid formula that they had for a while so
00:48:30There are all these technologies have accumulated since 1985
00:48:36That could be applied to a two-stroke motorcycle and that's what we've been talking about is
00:48:44Hmm. What might that be like?
00:48:46Well, I was hoping for was that we could just I think one of the charming things about a two-stroke is the simplicity of
00:48:52the cylinder head
00:48:53Yeah of a conventional two-stroke because you can just make the dome whatever you want and you can make your squish band
00:48:59You don't have to fuss
00:49:00You know, you put your spark plug right in the middle right in the middle and you make the squish band
00:49:05you know around the edge of the cylinder where the piston comes really close to the head and
00:49:10Squeezes in it and it's just a perfect ring and it just blows it all into the little kernel right around the spark plug in
00:49:15The in that little ball shaped chamber
00:49:18Yeah, it's a wonderful for combustion because for example with any number of four-stroke
00:49:26combustion chambers where the
00:49:30Bore is greater than the stroke by say 1.3 to 1.6 times
00:49:39We're
00:49:43Needing to ignite the charge between 40 and 50 degrees before top dead center, which means
00:49:50The engineers call it time loss. It's time
00:49:53during which heat is being lost from the combustion gas by by
00:49:59Being conducted away in the metal of the engine
00:50:04Whereas with the two-stroke the
00:50:08Ignition timing
00:50:10when you're in the torque band is
00:50:13Something of the order of 15 degrees before top dead center because there's nothing in the chamber. There are no valve cutouts
00:50:21there are no
00:50:22fences or
00:50:24Strange Alpine
00:50:26Structures on top of the piston so that the air is is
00:50:30The master of all its surveys and it whirls around in a mad dance that lights up very fast. I
00:50:38Was shocked when I got my first two-stroke
00:50:40And I was setting the ignition timing and I was reading up that it needed to be 10 or 12 or I'm like, wait
00:50:46A minute. I can't be right
00:50:49Because like, you know, I've been working on four strokes and you know, you're your typical
00:50:53Okay chamber four strokes 34 degrees my Bella said
00:50:58Take a drink. My Bella set was 38. That's the factory
00:51:02They want 38 degrees before top center and that's a that's a very classic 50s combustion chamber big dome piston
00:51:10valves can it out Brian Slark of the Barber Motorcycle Museum sent me pictures of
00:51:18Ferrari racing pistons and
00:51:21You wouldn't believe it 90 degree valves
00:51:23I'm sure of it
00:51:24But the but the wedge on top of the piston is just this giant mountain and then the valve cutouts are huge
00:51:31yes, and it's just
00:51:33It's so different. So you have to like that fire so far ahead because it's got all these impediments
00:51:38You know, the flame has to travel over the mountain call it kills the air motion
00:51:43Because the thing about the two-stroke chamber is it has an open area in the center of the chamber where the air can just do
00:51:49that mad dance whereas in the four-stroke it's like
00:51:54The pit and the pendulum where the walls come in
00:51:58Yeah, and then you've got you've got the valves which are changing the topography of the chamber because the valves have a certain
00:52:05Contour that you're not gonna really alter very much. So you don't have that open chamber. You'll have a
00:52:12chamber that is a thin layer of
00:52:15Mixture under pressure and it has spread over that whole layer. So good luck
00:52:23Well, that's what I was hoping we would maintain on my notional future two-stroke was the perfect combustion chamber like that
00:52:30But we got to put exhaust valves and we got to control them
00:52:33To keep we can't know that we can supercharge so we can so we can just blow it in there and then we have
00:52:39Then
00:52:41You have what you would kind of consider is that perfect linear torque like we get out of an electric motor where it's just
00:52:48Rheostatic as much as you want whenever you want it, especially with the electric supercharger just blowing it especially with the electric supercharger
00:52:55Yeah, that's pretty good. So what do you think like a 500 cc two-stroke?
00:53:02Probably looking at well, we kind of make whatever power we want can't wait for supercharging you just say like let's say 300
00:53:10Detonation limit. Yeah
00:53:12But an easy 500 CC. I mean we'd easily be able to make 200 horsepower
00:53:17Yeah, and we probably have a pretty clean 200 horsepower, too
00:53:20Yeah, and it would should it should be lighter than an equivalent four-stroke should be
00:53:27And of course, it doesn't have all those exhaust pipes
00:53:32Just as an exhaust manifold
00:53:36When I borrowed a Canadian
00:53:40RZ 500
00:53:42Yamaha I
00:53:44Took the exhaust pipes off and weighed them for exhaust pipes 42 pounds
00:53:50Stock one. Yeah, that's the stock ones. Yeah
00:53:53Yeah
00:53:53That's the penalty for riding on the street is that you've got to have all this stuff on your bike that's required for getting along
00:54:00with other people
00:54:02Mufflers so that their eardrums aren't burst
00:54:05directional signal so
00:54:08The old nice old lady won't say oh the young man, I I didn't see him and
00:54:15All these terrible stories you you have to defend yourself in traffic
00:54:21Primary defense, of course is your squirrel like alertness alertness and agility. Yeah
00:54:30Like all those all those people who are
00:54:33Dismayed in flight school when the instructor cuts the power every damn time they take off
00:54:42Because the instructor wants you
00:54:45To have a strong reflex that is correct. Yeah, because it is going to happen someday
00:54:55So
00:54:57So I'm afraid that that we've drawn a picture of a rather boring engine
00:55:01No torque everywhere
00:55:04No, I don't want torque everywhere. We want torque
00:55:08Frightening torque that arrives like a freight train
00:55:11But it is a thrill but it's nice. I mean, it's hard to race on that. That's the thing
00:55:16yeah hard to race and hard to ride and if
00:55:20You know we could get
00:55:23Because my most recent racing experience is Arma
00:55:27You know, I was racing a 70 horsepower BMW r75
00:55:33slash 5
00:55:35750
00:55:3670 horsepower beautiful torque curve
00:55:38The excess 650 Yamaha is able to make similar horsepower now you can make more
00:55:44But what do you lose you lose the torque that gets you off the corner?
00:55:49Yeah, it would be it would be more thrilling
00:55:51it might even sound better because you can like kick the compression up some more or
00:55:55You know that cams can really make an engine
00:55:59Well, we would say it sounds euphonious
00:56:04For some reason because we associate it with movement, that's why two-strokes, that's what isn't that why two-stroke sound good we associate
00:56:11the sound of it with
00:56:14Experiences. Oh, of course, and that's why it sounds good
00:56:19I went down to I made air quotes right now spot fires. I did I went down to the area of the
00:56:26turnpike
00:56:28One of my sons and I went to see the b29 that was there for a while
00:56:33And well, we were there
00:56:36a little
00:56:39Pre-war twin went taxiing by it had
00:56:43985s on it 985s and they have a lopey idle. That is just so
00:56:54Confident and
00:56:58Rhythmic and syncopated it's it's delightful and
00:57:02These these sounds these experiences you greens
00:57:07Are unknown to you and I'm sorry about it
00:57:11But we all have our little pleasures in life, hmm and these sounds
00:57:18Were not only stirring but filled with information
00:57:22Yeah, you could learn something about how your engine was running by listening to it
00:57:27You reminded me when you talked about the twin 985s
00:57:30Wobble wobble wobble doing their thing. Yeah, I
00:57:35flown on a b17 and
00:57:37And other twins dc3 or c47 is actually what it was
00:57:44And there's this magnificent
00:57:48What is it's that the rpm isn't perfectly equal so they're you're doing for pushing balls to the wall
00:57:55Which is where that came from the throttles go forward and they're ball shaped
00:57:58That's where it came from
00:58:00They're balls of the wall to get off the ground and those four things go forward and the rpm of the four engines is
00:58:07Just ever so slightly different and so you get this
00:58:10Overlapping all the ways then you get that wah-wah sound the twins do it. I used to work in a psychiatric hospital
00:58:17And I had a 1959 Austin Healey 106. So it was a 2.6 liter inline six
00:58:23Yes, lovely car. Nice running car pretty kind of a wagon underneath but
00:58:29inspirational wagon and
00:58:32Good sounding great sounding car and my friend Rob who I was working with
00:58:37Also had an Austin Healey
00:58:393,000 and we would leave together and we would go down the road side-by-side at midnight because we were doing 3 to 11
00:58:45shifts and
00:58:46Summertime in Southern California top down at night 75 degrees
00:58:50Wah-wah-wah-wah-wah because the rpm were similar but different
00:58:56Yeah, just you know everything our memory the smells right how powerful the smell is I mean if you
00:59:03If you went and smell smelled caster again
00:59:06I mean, it's gonna bring back a flood of
00:59:11Like nothing like scent. Yeah to trigger the mind
00:59:16so maybe we can get that out of our notional future two-stroke is have a
00:59:21scent candle
00:59:22well, I
00:59:24Thought exhaust pipes were beautiful. I made several sets of crossover pipes that were
00:59:30The right cylinder pipe went to the left side of the motorcycle and vice versa why because by
00:59:37Because by curving around the other pipe length was used up such that the fat part of that pipe
00:59:44Did not interfere with the drive chain. Yes. Got it. That's why they did it that way and
00:59:51it was
00:59:54Really a head down
00:59:56let's just
00:59:58Get this done
00:59:59Process to make it but when the pipes were done and all the brackets were in place and they were on the motorbike
01:00:06It was a very satisfying
01:00:08Moment because the pipes look nice the welds look good
01:00:12The curves were were as I had intended them to be it's nice
01:00:17And there's a there's a an aesthetic there and of course, that's not coming back
01:00:25Those those beautiful exhaust pipes particularly the titanium ones with all the colors
01:00:32There's no purpose for them now other than
01:00:36as at the barber museum when
01:00:39they started up Kenny's 1980 championship bike in the
01:00:45restoration shop and
01:00:48It sounded like it should sound no, it's still happening in Arma, buddy
01:00:52Yeah, it may not be coming back but it is not gone entirely
01:00:58Bits bits and pieces exist to this day, you know, I
01:01:04Couldn't afford my own exhaust pipe, so I don't have any
01:01:09Sometimes I felt like maybe I should make one but then I wonder if I could so
01:01:17But that was an era and
01:01:20It created a lot of powerful
01:01:29Influence on the people who lived through it and
01:01:34That's theirs it can't be explained to people subsequently
01:01:41It was very enjoyable at the time
01:01:43So if we got two strokes, then it isn't going to be the two-stroke that we're looking for in the in the classic sense
01:01:50Because what it is
01:01:52It is not life
01:01:55Rewound because it's it's so I
01:02:01Think about the two-stroke Enduros that I've ridden your 300s, especially because the 300 two-stroke is so light. Mm-hmm and
01:02:09They're making these big fat pipes and you're getting it, you know, you're getting bottom-end you're getting very
01:02:16significant
01:02:17immediate torque
01:02:19really growling just
01:02:21And it's wonderful. I don't think there's a better off-road engine than
01:02:28A 300 CC two-stroke
01:02:30But we're not getting that we aren't getting that back on the street. I'm sorry. I didn't I didn't want the podcast to be
01:02:36But we you know, we have to embrace what's coming and I certainly man I would love to ride a motor like we've discussed
01:02:44You know moderately more complicated than a standard two-stroke
01:02:48Significantly more powerful than a two-stroke or a four-stroke of the same displacement or even double. Yep, and
01:02:56Could be darn efficient very clean and
01:02:59Give us results that are better than a two-stroke
01:03:02Could be darn efficient very clean and give us results that are positively unreal positively unreal
01:03:10Yes
01:03:11one of those forward to non-statements, but yeah, that's um
01:03:18So I guess i'll keep my rd and and uh
01:03:21Enjoy that periodically fine weekends fine weekends
01:03:25And uh, that is a thrilling power band. I must say I have my td1 for the same reason
01:03:33I hope that i'll start it this next summer great
01:03:37Well, thanks for listening folks. Another one in the books. Uh, we appreciate you, uh taking the ride with us
01:03:43Hit the comments. We always enjoy that
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