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NewsTranscript
00:00The story of Pablo Cuchan, one of the bloodiest murderers in the history of Argentine crime.
00:06A femicide, someone capable of killing his 15-year-old girlfriend.
00:10He was 25, he killed Luciana Moretti at 15 years old.
00:15She was a girl and he burned her on a grill.
00:18Why is this news?
00:20This murderer who was convicted, then had several death sentences,
00:24committed other acts of gender violence for which he was also convicted.
00:29Why is this news?
00:31He just got out of prison.
00:33This is how we present the topic.
00:59Let's start at the beginning, Martín.
01:09For the story of this murderer, Pablo Cuchan.
01:12A man who, in addition to killing his 15-year-old girlfriend and burning her on a grill,
01:17had other acts of gender violence.
01:19Some did not die for minutes.
01:22For minutes.
01:23This one you see here, this smiling guy, is called Pablo Cuchan.
01:28And it would be a beautiful family photo of two newlyweds.
01:34One of them with a son, I think it's her son.
01:37It would be a beautiful photo if the one in the middle
01:40would not be one of the most ruthless femicides in Argentine history.
01:46A guy who has a visceral hatred of women.
01:51Hatred in every sense.
01:54It is true, as you said Marina, he murdered Luciana Moretti in 2004,
01:59dismembered her and tried to set her on fire.
02:02That later, we stop at the detail, at the review in detail,
02:06but that later he had a woman he met in prison,
02:09to which, among other things, he fractured her leg and hanged her.
02:14And now he marries for the third time.
02:17I honestly, and I say this stripped of any kind of prejudice,
02:22but the truth is that one here is difficult not to have it.
02:25What happens to that woman's head,
02:28who marries a guy who set a 15-year-old girl on fire
02:32and who hanged an ex-partner?
02:35I don't know how, I don't know, I don't understand.
02:38It is a phenomenon that is typified, it is a pathology,
02:41it is called hybristophilia, we will address it in a while.
02:44But I want to stop in the history of Pablo Cuchan,
02:47because the crime for which he is sentenced,
02:49first to 18 years later,
02:51he was sentenced to death for exemplary behavior.
02:55Well, the story of Pablo Cuchan is very curious.
02:57To a guy who dismembers and burns on a grill a 15-year-old girl.
03:01Exemplary behavior.
03:03Exactly, Marina.
03:04The story of Pablo Cuchan begins on October 16, 2004,
03:09in Ingeniero White, a very nearby town, in Bahia Blanca.
03:13He was 24 years old at that time,
03:16and he met, he was not a boyfriend,
03:18but he met a girl named Luciana Moretti, 15 years old.
03:21Luciana studied in high school, she was a divine girl,
03:23with a lot of dreams, with a lot of aspirations in life.
03:27She was Luciana, the oldest.
03:29He was 24 and she was 15.
03:32One day he invites her to his house,
03:34and finally, not to go into details,
03:37he murders her, dismembers her,
03:40and tries to set her on fire on the grill.
03:43More ruthless than that, I can't think of.
03:47What I can think of, more ruthless,
03:49is that after the crime,
03:51he, for a week, helped Luciana's search,
03:54and helped Luciana's family to try to find her.
03:57A pervert.
03:58Absolute pervert.
04:00It reminds me of the worst time of Mancheri.
04:02A psychopath, without moral conscience.
04:04Without moral conscience.
04:05The truth is that, a week after the crime,
04:09they put him in jail.
04:11Three years after the crime, in 2007,
04:15he was sentenced to 18 years in prison.
04:18Why 18 years in prison and not life imprisonment?
04:21Well, this was before the Femicide Law.
04:23Sure, before Mancheri, in the case of Ángeles Raúl.
04:26Before Mancheri, Ángeles.
04:27He was sentenced to 18 years in prison.
04:30They could forgive him.
04:31I think they could forgive him for 25 years.
04:33They could forgive him for 25 years.
04:35Perfect, yes.
04:36And there they made him a price.
04:37Totally in agreement with him.
04:38Quietly.
04:39What happens some time later?
04:41Casación reviews the sentence and says,
04:45Hey, here they considered twice the same aggravating
04:49instead of 18 years, 17.
04:51Well, there is not much difference,
04:53but a year is a year.
04:54A year is a year.
04:55A year is a year.
04:56They appeal that sentence.
04:59And of course, the justice, the higher courts,
05:02did not finish defining.
05:04Therefore, in the year 2016,
05:07I'm talking about 12 years after having dismembered
05:10and set Luciana on fire,
05:12they set the guy free.
05:14Yes, this is where they say,
05:15exemplary conduct within the penalty.
05:17An exemplary conduct within the penalty.
05:20There he has, from the year 2016 to the year 2019,
05:24that he returns to prison to finish fulfilling the sentence,
05:26at least three complaints of gender violence.
05:30Three complaints of gender violence.
05:32I remember one when he was going to live in Montermoso
05:35because they didn't want him in any city.
05:36Imagine that.
05:37They rejected him, they declared him an ungrateful person.
05:39But in Montermoso, I understand that he meets a woman,
05:42establishes a relationship,
05:44and in a very confusing context,
05:46that woman ends up throwing herself out of the vehicle
05:48that he was driving,
05:50evidently, or from what the investigation deduced,
05:53due to a situation of gender violence
05:55that occurred inside the vehicle.
05:56Well, and what happens there?
05:58He refuses to drink alcohol,
06:00and they say, well,
06:01since he refused to drink alcohol,
06:03we presume that he was drunk,
06:04and he has rules of conduct to be free.
06:06So we put him back in jail.
06:08What does he do with his free time in jail,
06:11Pablo Cuchan?
06:12He hates women.
06:14He hates them.
06:15He does this.
06:16He opens a Tinder account from jail.
06:19Oh, please.
06:20To meet women.
06:22And you know what's the worst of all?
06:24And here Franco is going to get angry with me,
06:26but I am outraged by this.
06:27No, I can't.
06:28That there are women,
06:29that there are women
06:31who know what he did,
06:33and they still want to give him another chance.
06:36In fact, that's what happened in 2021,
06:39when through social media,
06:41he meets a woman,
06:43gets in a relationship,
06:45and in one of those visits,
06:47he fractures her leg
06:49and even strangles her.
06:51That woman was a woman
06:53he came to live with.
06:54She kicks him out of the house,
06:56and once he returns,
06:57he is depressed in the house.
06:58Totally.
06:59And they catch him,
07:00they catch him strangling her,
07:02wanting to kill her.
07:03It is in the context in which he breaks her leg.
07:05Totally.
07:06He fractures her leg.
07:07What happens with that situation?
07:08The girl denounces him,
07:10denounces him,
07:11he is sentenced to three years in prison
07:13and now he is in prison.
07:14He was sentenced last year,
07:15from 2024 to 2027.
07:19This is the sentence he is fulfilling.
07:21This is the sentence he is fulfilling.
07:22Yes, it is three years.
07:23In the middle of that sentence,
07:25in the middle of that sentence,
07:27through social media,
07:29he meets a third woman.
07:32What happens to him?
07:33I don't understand it anymore.
07:35I don't understand it.
07:36He meets that third woman.
07:37Let's suppose that woman is sick.
07:38Let's suppose that woman is sick.
07:39I don't know.
07:40I don't know.
07:41That woman has to have a close circle,
07:43a friend, a sister,
07:44a cousin,
07:45someone to tell her.
07:46Because not only does he become a couple,
07:48not only is he going to visit him in prison,
07:50but he also marries Pablo Cuchan.
07:54I'm just going to tell you, Marina,
07:56a story prior to the murder of Luciana Moretti.
08:00The 15-year-old girl.
08:01The 15-year-old girl.
08:02Before the crime of Luciana Moretti,
08:04Pablo Cuchan had a girlfriend,
08:08whom he had no longer seen.
08:10They were separated.
08:11And he calls her to his house.
08:13He tells her,
08:14come, I have to tell you something.
08:15The girl had suffered gender violence,
08:17she is very afraid,
08:18she is accompanied by a friend,
08:19and he tells her,
08:20come in, I don't dare.
08:22The door of Pablo Cuchan's house was open.
08:25This friend of the ex-girlfriend came into the house
08:27and the walls were all covered in blood.
08:30The young man continues to enter
08:31and finds in the bathtub
08:33Pablo Cuchan's dog
08:35with a cut in the belly,
08:37agonizing,
08:38and he with his blood
08:39would have painted all the walls
08:40with the dog's blood.
08:42His own dog?
08:43His own dog.
08:44I mean,
08:45so that they are aware
08:47of how perverse and sinister this guy is,
08:50that for some reason that I cannot explain,
08:53there is a woman
08:54who continues to give him opportunities.
08:56As we are going to see in a while,
08:57there are many femicides,
08:58there are many women
09:00who continue to give him opportunities.
09:02It happened in the case of Monzón,
09:04it happened in the case of Tablado,
09:05it happened with Barreda,
09:06it happened,
09:07and it happens even,
09:08do you know with whom?
09:09With whom?
09:10With Farré.
09:12Ah, the one who killed the woman
09:14in the dresser
09:16of what was the family home, of course.
09:18He also receives messages from women
09:20and even men
09:22who want to establish a relationship with him.
09:24Well, here we have the cases.
09:26In the case of Monzón,
09:28perhaps he explains
09:29for having been a world champion,
09:31for his link with the ZZ,
09:33with Susana Jiménez.
09:35I remember
09:36that when they took him
09:37arrested in Monzón
09:38after the crime of Alicia Muñiz,
09:39people shouted to him,
09:41champion, champion,
09:42let's go champion.
09:43I remember that.
09:44I lived it in Mar del Plata.
09:46In that summer,
09:47on February 14th,
09:48Alicia Muñiz dies,
09:49the strip of the balcony,
09:50I'm going to say it like this,
09:51because this is what justice proved,
09:53and people kept shouting to him,
09:55let's go champion,
09:56hold on champion.
09:57Totally.
09:58Look, Barreda,
09:59who was given the letters,
10:01because at that time
10:02there were no social networks
10:03or cell phones,
10:04he was given the love letters
10:05in a cart,
10:06of the amount they were.
10:08Well, in fact,
10:09Apochi, who is the woman,
10:11knows her in jail.
10:12whose house he is going to live in
10:13and, well,
10:14who ends up denouncing him
10:15for gender violence
10:16and returns to jail
10:17for that episode,
10:18he knows her.
10:19He knows her
10:20and visits her.
10:21Farrello,
10:22who we were just talking about,
10:23and then Fabián Tablado,
10:24who stabs Carolina Lo
10:26116 times,
10:27and in jail
10:28he meets another woman.
10:29And what do you not know
10:30what happened to that woman?
10:31He had violent attitudes
10:32with that woman again.
10:33In fact,
10:34he has a complaint,
10:35a woman with whom
10:36he had sex.
10:37He had sex, yes.
10:38I say,
10:39but he was also violent
10:40with that woman.
10:41Yes, yes,
10:42he has a restriction.
10:43This also proves,
10:44beyond women,
10:45the little relocation
10:46or education
10:47that happens
10:49in jail
10:50with the homicides.
10:51Nothing, nothing.
10:52It's a failure,
10:53it's a failure
10:54of the penitentiary system.
10:55In addition to those
10:56that we want ...
10:57Penitentiary system in general.
10:58Well, of course,
10:59in general.
11:00In addition to those
11:01that we want to say
11:02about each individual
11:03and about each
11:04particular woman
11:05who falls in love
11:06with these individuals,
11:07that is a kind of
11:08first level of analysis.
11:09In a second level
11:10of analysis,
11:11who failed here?
11:12The state,
11:13the penitentiary system
11:14and the judicial power.
11:15Yes, it is also true
11:16that it is a phenomenon
11:17that happens in Argentina.
11:18There are series,
11:19there are movies,
11:20it happens all over the world.
11:21Well,
11:22Charles Mason,
11:23I think ...
11:24There is an industry
11:25that romanticizes
11:26murder in general.
11:27Of course, of course,
11:28but sorry,
11:29if there is no possibility
11:30of re-education
11:31of those people
11:32for their re-insertion
11:33in society,
11:34we have to review
11:35what the code says
11:36about this issue,
11:37because obviously
11:38it is not people
11:39who are prepared
11:40to link.
11:41It seems to me
11:42that they are two different issues.
11:43On the one hand,
11:44what depends on the system,
11:45on the other hand,
11:46I think that this list
11:47could add to Arquímedes Pucho,
11:48for example,
11:49who had a counter-success
11:50in prison,
11:51being the head
11:52of a murderous clan,
11:53counter-approved.
11:54I mean,
11:55no one grabs this one,
11:56Cuchana's girlfriend,
11:57now that she got married
11:58and says,
11:59no, it's out there.
12:00But, but ...
12:01He says no,
12:02not with this one,
12:03because he's going to hurt you.
12:04Yes.
12:05I want to remind you
12:06of one thing.
12:07Barrera,
12:08specifically,
12:09died with a filmmaker,
12:10a popular Argentine musician,
12:11mega-famous
12:12and another lot
12:13of well-known artists
12:14applauding him.
12:15I'm not going to give the names
12:16so that one of those people
12:17can call me.
12:18We all know.
12:19But the last days of Barrera
12:20were those.
12:21I mean,
12:22regardless of the women,
12:23a group of men
12:24who celebrated him
12:25to the last man.
12:26The same Monzón.
12:27The same Monzón.
12:28The same Monzón.
12:29The same Monzón.
12:30Of course.
12:31Well,
12:32we are already here
12:33on the floor
12:34with Sergio Grossman,
12:35who is a psychologist
12:36who is going to help us
12:37with all this
12:38that happens to those women.
12:39And I say,
12:40not only women,
12:41because I also think
12:42of Nair Galarza
12:43and the number
12:44of social networks
12:45every time there is
12:46a news about her.
12:47But it's called
12:48hybristophilia,
12:49I understand.
12:50What is it that
12:51goes through our heads
12:52when we know
12:53that the other
12:54is a murderer
12:55and so on
12:56we want to link
12:57and we are able
12:58to fall in love?
12:59Well,
13:00you have to think first
13:01that we have to
13:02run away
13:03from generalizations.
13:04Well,
13:05we are used
13:06to think of the other
13:07as if it were
13:08that he thinks
13:09and feels
13:10just like us.
13:11And that is
13:12in generality.
13:13And we think
13:14to be able
13:15to collaborate
13:16between humans
13:17that the other
13:18is good
13:19and that the other
13:20is more or less
13:21like me.
13:22But,
13:23not all people
13:24have the same
13:25psychic formation
13:26and then,
13:27among the women
13:28who fall in love
13:29with murderers
13:30of children,
13:31there are different
13:32examples.
13:33I mean,
13:34it's not a subject
13:35that is super studied
13:36scientifically,
13:37but there are
13:38in general
13:39cases
13:40where
13:42there are interviews
13:43that were made
13:44by forensic scientists
13:45and psychologists
13:46in different places
13:47in the world
13:48to these women.
13:49And they are
13:50different from each other.
13:51Some believe
13:52that with my love
13:53I'm going to save him.
13:54I'm going to transform him.
13:55I'm going to change him.
13:56They were just talking
13:57about the fact
13:58that the judicial
13:59and penitentiary
14:00system
14:01failed
14:02in reforming him.
14:03But the truth
14:04is that
14:05this type of people
14:06there is no evidence
14:07to support
14:08that.
14:09The majority
14:10of rapists
14:11and highly aggressive
14:12people
14:13and psychopaths,
14:14science
14:15does not have
14:16a way
14:17to offer them
14:18a real change.
14:19It may be that
14:20some change,
14:21but the majority
14:22don't.
14:23So we can't say
14:24that the penitentiary
14:25system
14:26is going to change
14:27when we don't
14:28know how
14:29to change
14:30the people
14:31from this.
14:32On the other hand,
14:33going back
14:34to the women,
14:35then,
14:36one is
14:37the one
14:38that says
14:39with my love
14:40I'm going
14:41to save him.
14:42Of those
14:43that are known,
14:4480%
14:45had experiences
14:46of sexual
14:47violence
14:48or physical
14:49violence
14:50in childhood,
14:51of women
14:52who fall in love
14:53with...
14:54Femicides
14:55or murderers.
14:56Femicides
14:57or serial killers
14:58and that.
14:59And that
15:00leads us
15:01to think
15:02that there is
15:03a group
15:04of these women
15:05that,
15:06in childhood,
15:07learned
15:08that love
15:09and violence
15:10go together.
15:11And it's hard
15:12for them
15:13to learn
15:14to separate
15:15that one thing
15:16is violence
15:17and another
15:18is love.
15:19Sure,
15:20the idea of
15:21healthy love,
15:22of love that doesn't hurt,
15:23maybe they don't
15:24have it so
15:25incorporated.
15:26We can understand
15:27rationally,
15:28but what they lived
15:29and marked them
15:30in childhood
15:31is I hit you
15:32or I rape you
15:33because I love you.
15:34And that
15:35leads them
15:36to form
15:37the way of loving
15:38in a different way.
15:39Now,
15:40it may be the
15:41conviction
15:42they have
15:43to wash
15:44that woman's head
15:45and say,
15:46I've already changed,
15:47I'm already different.
15:48Ah,
15:49that, of course.
15:50Which,
15:51clearly,
15:52in the case
15:53of Kuchani
15:54and so many others,
15:55we already know
15:56it's a lie
15:57because
15:58as far as
15:59the woman
16:00who crosses,
16:01hits her
16:02or wants to kill her,
16:03let's say,
16:04it's not the truth.
16:05It's the truth
16:06that you
16:07have to
16:08live in
16:09this
16:10life
16:11with
16:12special
16:13importance.
16:14Then you
16:15have it
16:16in the man
16:17in jail
16:18and you're not
16:19exposed to
16:20the reality
16:21of the relationship.
16:22What you're exposed
16:23to is your fantasy,
16:24you see it
16:25for a little while
16:26and,
16:27I don't know,
16:28during a week
16:29you fantasize,
16:30during an hour
16:31you see it,
16:32during a week
16:33little statistics in the world, there is no concrete information, but I did read about the possibility
16:39in certain women to seek to transcend or become famous, some unconscious mechanism, that on the one
16:45hand I want to ask you and on the other hand what can friends, family of these women do? What would you do
16:50if a patient of yours starts a relationship with a man like this? What happens is that one can
17:00advise someone, but the advice has to be received by someone who wants to receive them,
17:07you cannot force the other, so if the other is not willing to listen to you, you can
17:16tell him the best of the world, but there has to be a person sitting there who has an interrogator,
17:24who has a doubt, who tells you, I'm doing well on this path, now if the person is
17:31convinced that he is doing well and you tell him, no, this ends badly, it does not mean that you have
17:36someone there to listen to you, then he opens up to look for another path. The unconscious search for fame can also be in this case?
17:43Look, the search for fame can also be, I was also thinking, there is a subtype of cases that are
17:53those that come together to commit a crime, that is, people who also perhaps because they were formed as criminals
18:02or because they lived in a criminal environment, let's say they look for as Bonnie and Clyde, the couple that they are going to commit a crime together.
18:11Yes, yes, yes, it may be. Now I was thinking, these women, what level of consciousness do they have about the history of these jackals, right?
18:21Because one googles Pablo Cuchan and what Candalaf tells you appears to you with less detail, of course, but it appears to you, it is in sight of everyone, within everyone's reach.
18:31So what is it? That one refuses to believe that of the other or that there is some kind of enjoyment in putting oneself at risk, in putting oneself in danger?
18:40No, in general, it is more, as Candalaf was saying, he lies, that is, the detainee lies to them, treats them well, he pretends to be good.
18:51The bad ones are the victims.
18:53Of course, that's typical, right? So, no, he took me out of the equation, he treated me badly, I was going to treat you well.
19:02Besides, let's say that this man never recognized the first murder. He said, this did not happen, it is condemned, the justice tried it, but he never said, this happened.
19:10And the person who falls in love enters a process of justification and minimization.
19:16But there is also, doctor, a capture from the killer, let's say, that is, he also knows how, I believe that in his own pathology, he knows where to go and what kind of woman to reach.
19:31Because it also occurs to me that many of all these women must be women who, in this that we say, as the environment does not avoid it, should not have an environment.
19:38They have a lot of people, but they do not have an environment. They are alone.
19:42I would be encouraged to think that there are with environment and without environment, and yes, they use their seduction capacities, but you see, the guy opens Tinder and throws, throws, throws, throws, throws, throws.
19:56In the universe of trying with 10,000, one will find that he has these problems of self-esteem, these problems of feeling that love and violence are united.
20:11One is going to feel the need to save someone, to change their life and believe that I am going to change your life or that I am going to treat you well.
20:23There is also an admiration for violence.
20:26Yes, it is clear. It is clear. There are a lot of possibilities in terms of the explanation of the attitude of these women.
20:32We wanted to talk to you, Sergio, so that you can help us understand what is incomprehensible to us. Thank you for coming.