Samsung’s S25 Ultra and the end of the flagship phone | The Vergecast - video Dailymotion

The Verge

The Verge’s Allison Johnson joins the show to talk about the new Samsung Galaxy S25, what’s new in this high-end phone, and what it means for all the other smartphones coming this year. After that, Cooper Quintin, a senior staff technologist at the Electronic Frontier Foundation, talks us through how to think about the privacy implications of RedNote, TikTok, DeepSeek, and all the other tech that puts us in contact with China. Finally, we enlist The Verge’s Jennifer Pattison Tuohy to help us answer a question from the Vergecast Hotline all about the Meta Portal. Remember the Meta Portal?? If you’re missing yours, we have some ideas.

Transcript

00:00:00Welcome to the Verge cast, the flagship podcast of minor smartphone camera upgrades. I'm your

00:00:05friend David Pierce, and I am sitting here once again repacking my travel electronics bag.

00:00:11I've been traveling a bunch. I've had a lot of like 36-hour trips recently, which is a weird

00:00:16and sort of unique packing challenge, but I've gotten very good. I can do the whole thing in a

00:00:20backpack now, even if I have to bring a camera. And the trick, the key for me has been that I

00:00:26turned this whole gigantic bag full of cables and other assorted crap into two things. I bought

00:00:33these things from Amazon. They're these retractable USB cables. I got one that's six feet long

00:00:41and black, and one that's blue and three feet long. And these are now the only USB cables I

00:00:46carry with me anywhere. I can plug into walls. I can plug into other devices. I can plug them

00:00:50into almost everything. This thing where everything is USB-C is great. Like to be clear,

00:00:55I don't care how you feel about the EU. I don't care how you feel about like Apple wanting to do

00:00:58lightning, whatever. It's better that there's one port for everything. And I'm finally to the point

00:01:02where actually other than my AirPods, which I haven't upgraded in a long time, every gadget I

00:01:08own is USB-C and it's fabulous. So now instead of a giant bag, I just have this and it has made

00:01:13everything a whole lot easier. I'll link these in the show notes. They're on Amazon. I don't know

00:01:16if there's any like specific reason to buy this brand over any other, but they're great. Anyway,

00:01:23we are not here to talk about USB cables, although we're a little bit here to talk about USB cables

00:01:27on every single episode of this show. Today, we're going to do two things on the show. First,

00:01:31we're going to talk about the Galaxy S25 and all of the phones coming up this year. What we think

00:01:37is going to happen in maybe not the most interesting year ever in smartphones, but in a

00:01:42year where a lot of smartphone companies are going to make the case that your phone can be different

00:01:48and new because of AI. So we're going to get into that. We're also going to talk about China. With

00:01:53all of this stuff happening with TikTok and Red Note and DeepSeek, this question of how we as

00:01:58internet users should think about China and the Chinese government and apps that come from China

00:02:03and products that come from China, it's just complicated. And we're going to try to sort

00:02:07through it with somebody who actually knows what they're talking about. We also have a question

00:02:10from the Vergecast hotline. Lots of fun stuff to get to you. This is a particularly fun hotline

00:02:15question. I feel like I say that a lot, but I really enjoyed this one because it made me think

00:02:18about a gadget I haven't thought about in a long time. All that is coming up in just a sec, but

00:02:23first, I'm just going to... Do you see how fun this looks? It's a long cable and you pull and

00:02:29it goes back in. This is what the Vergecast is here for. Retractable USB-C cables. This is the

00:02:36dream. This is the Vergecast. We'll be right back. All right, we're back. Let's talk about some

00:02:42gadgets. So last week, Samsung announced the Galaxy S25 lineup. There's the S25, the S25 Plus,

00:02:49the S25 Ultra. By and large, I think these phones are not the most interesting things that have ever

00:02:56been launched, but they're going to be very popular and they are the first kind of big,

00:03:01mainstream, lots-of-people-are-going-to-buy-them phones that we've seen this year, which makes it a

00:03:08fun moment to, I think, look at the rest of the year ahead. We know pretty much what we're going

00:03:12to get. We're going to get new Pixels. We're going to get new iPhones. We're going to get more

00:03:16foldables. We're going to get more flippables. We're going to have a lot of new ideas about

00:03:20what a smartphone should do and how AI should figure in, and so I figured Alison Johnson and

00:03:25I should just get into what we think 2025 is going to look like and maybe a little bit what

00:03:30we're hoping for from smartphones in the year to come. So, let's talk S25. Let's talk 2025.

00:03:37Let's get into it. Alison Johnson, hello.

00:03:39ALISON JOHNSON Hello.

00:03:40TAYLOR It's phone time again. It's January 31st

00:03:43as we're recording this and somehow it's already phone time.

00:03:46ALISON JOHNSON It's phone season, baby.

00:03:48TAYLOR This is just the rest of your year now.

00:03:51ALISON JOHNSON Oh, don't say that.

00:03:52TAYLOR You got two weeks between CES and right now,

00:03:55and now it's just phones forever.

00:03:56ALISON JOHNSON Phones for the rest of time.

00:03:59So, okay, so because it's January, I kind of want to do two things. I want to talk about your review

00:04:03of the Samsung S25 Ultra, a phone I find both deeply boring and thoroughly fascinating, and

00:04:11I want to peel that apart a little bit. And then I want to look ahead to the year to come a little

00:04:15bit. I think it's going to be a really interesting year of phones, and I just want to talk about that

00:04:19a little bit. But let's start with the S25. You've reviewed the thing. You tried it. I would not say

00:04:27based on the little bit I've heard about your review, you seem wildly enthusiastic about this

00:04:30phone. Is that fair to say? TAYLOR Yeah, that's fair. And I've been using the S25 Ultra first

00:04:38for the past week. Yeah, it's complicated. It's like, it is a great phone. It's a very good phone.

00:04:45It's been a good phone, you know, for the past couple of generations. But it just feels like

00:04:52Samsung is kind of losing the plot. They call this phone the Ultra. It should be everything you

00:05:00could ever want from a phone, and it kind of is. But it feels like the past couple years,

00:05:05they've just been taking away little things. It used to have the 10x dedicated zoom, and then

00:05:11they're like, well, people didn't really use it that much, so we do a 5x. You're like, fine. And

00:05:18then this time around, they're like, we took away the Bluetooth and the stylus, and you can't do the

00:05:24little magic wand things anymore because no one was doing them. It's like, fine, I guess I'm not

00:05:31going to miss them. But then you end up with like, what have they been adding? And it's just kind of

00:05:38stalled out, I feel like. We've got all these AI features, which are a real mixed bag still,

00:05:45and they're on every other phone. They're on all the Samsung phones. They're on older

00:05:50Samsung phones. They're on Android phones. So I'm just sort of sitting here like,

00:05:55this is a great phone, sure, but what makes it so special? I don't know.

00:06:01So I'm of two minds about all of this, which is part of what I want to talk through with you. I

00:06:06think on the one hand, the thing that Samsung is describing where it's like, let's take

00:06:11all the confusing and complicated stuff out and just give you a phone that is good and is full

00:06:17of things that people like to do. I think it's good, right? It's a thing we ask for in product

00:06:23design all the time. Stop shipping weird shit and just make a good phone that does things people

00:06:29like. I think it's a not-wrong path. But then on the other hand, I do feel like either Samsung is,

00:06:38like you said, kind of losing the plot and running out of ideas, or this is just a sign

00:06:42that there is absolutely nothing left to do in smartphones, and that maybe our phones are what

00:06:48they are, and they have hit laptop territory of like, we pretty much know how this is supposed to

00:06:53go. The end. And then I think if you're Samsung, continuing to sell a phone that you call the

00:06:59Ultra just feels bonkers. The more I think about your review and your experience, the less I even

00:07:07understand why this phone exists. Because like you're saying, this is supposed to be the one

00:07:11that does all the things, and it's supposed to be the place where Samsung tests its weirdest ideas,

00:07:15and I kind of love Samsung for that. And for years, they were like, oh, most people don't want

00:07:19a stylus, but some people do. And so we make a note, and it's going to blow up on a plane.

00:07:24SHANNON But right.

00:07:26NATHAN But like, they did that for people,

00:07:28and there's something about that that I actually really appreciate about Samsung,

00:07:31that they're like, this is the one where we just said yes to everything.

00:07:35And now that it's not that, I'm not super clear on what it even is anymore.

00:07:40SHANNON Yeah, and it's like, I'm generally

00:07:44of the mind that phones are boring now, and that's okay. It's like, we've just kind of landed on

00:07:50what a phone is shaped like and what it does. We're not doing a bunch of wacky things anymore

00:07:55with cameras that pop up or little things that flip around. You know, bless LG.

00:08:01NATHAN Those were fun days, though. I missed those times.

00:08:04SHANNON They were fun.

00:08:04NATHAN What was the LG one that the screen, like, turned 90 degrees?

00:08:08SHANNON I think that was the Wing.

00:08:10NATHAN The Wing! I wish that had been successful.

00:08:13SHANNON You know, LG was just that too.

00:08:15NATHAN I don't think any person on earth bought that phone,

00:08:18but I loved that it existed.

00:08:19SHANNON Yeah, bless them. Yeah, it's like we just landed on the basic idea of what a phone is

00:08:29shaped like, what it does, and it's fine. And people, we use it for so many things in our lives,

00:08:35you don't want a bunch of, have to learn a bunch of different stuff every time you buy a new phone.

00:08:41So I think that's okay. But yeah, I think the problem comes when Samsung is like,

00:08:46here's the ultra phone, and it costs $12.99, and you definitely should pay that much money for it.

00:08:55And you're like, okay, what do I get? And it's like, well, you know, you get a 5x zoom,

00:09:01but you could get that on a Pixel phone, you get a little stylus that, like, used to do some special

00:09:07stuff, and it doesn't now. Like, I don't know, like, give us something, like, do something,

00:09:13make it a little bigger and double the battery life, or I don't know, you know? I'm sure it's

00:09:19that easy, you know, designing engineering phones. But yeah, I feel like there's something,

00:09:25like, there has to be something, and Samsung is just kind of, like, stalled out.

00:09:30WESLEY I know, I do think, I'm glad you mentioned the battery life, because I was thinking about it,

00:09:33and I'm like, okay, what would work as ultra for me? And it's like, twice as thick,

00:09:38twice the battery would do it, right? I think you could feasibly be like, this phone is like a thick

00:09:44boy with two Cs, but it lasts for five days. And I actually, I think that is, like, an incredibly

00:09:51interesting idea about a smartphone. Then on the flip side, I think the other one they could have

00:09:56done is really gone after durability. And, like, Motorola, I feel like, was really the last company

00:10:03to take a big swing at, like, we are going to make a phone that you can't break. And it didn't,

00:10:08it didn't really work, but I think that's more for, like, Motorola reasons than it being a good

00:10:12idea reasons. And so I think if I'm Samsung, like, I would have been interested to see if

00:10:17Samsung had poked at either of those two and been like, is this, is this a thing people will upgrade

00:10:22for? Because I think it is, but we have no evidence for it because no one has ever really tested it.

00:10:26But, like, I think if I could say to somebody, here's a phone that will last you from Monday to

00:10:32Thursday reliably, or here is a phone that you slippery-handed goofus, you can't even break.

00:10:40Like, that works. That is the most interesting new idea about a smartphone I've heard in a

00:10:45very long time. And I, like, I wish Samsung had picked something like that to do here.

00:10:49Yeah. I feel like we're going to end up with, like, the Fold, the Z Fold and the Ultra, like,

00:10:55merge into, like, here is the ultimate phone that does other things. And it's, like,

00:11:02cut somehow comes with the stylus and folds in half. And, like, if they upgraded the cameras

00:11:09on the Fold, like, that would be an Ultra phone, I think.

00:11:13Yeah.

00:11:14If, if such a thing exists. But yeah, as far as things that people actually

00:11:19want in their lives, like, battery life would be an easy one.

00:11:23Right. Yeah, I totally agree. So, the two things I'm particularly curious about on

00:11:27the S25 Ultra in particular, but kind of the S25 line in general is, as ever, the AI and the

00:11:33cameras. Brand new-ish version of Gemini shipping first on this device is supposed to be the, like,

00:11:41multi-step, multi-app action thing, supposed to be kind of the next AI experience on your phone.

00:11:48You've gotten to test it. How'd it go?

00:11:50Good and bad. So, I'll start with the good. I finally did the thing where it's, like,

00:11:55you have something on your screen and you want to put it on your calendar. And that has just

00:12:00not been a thing that Gemini or, like, any other technology in the world can do, apparently. But it

00:12:06finally happened. You, like, summon Gemini, which is now the default assistant on Samsung phones.

00:12:14Which we agree is, like, an extremely good upgrade, right? That is the correct, okay.

00:12:18It should be this way. Bixby is, like, hanging around in the settings menu,

00:12:22like, doing some stuff and that's fine. Like, that's, that's where Bixby belongs.

00:12:25I don't want to kill Bixby. I just don't want to, like, think about Bixby very often.

00:12:28Yeah. Bixby can just be hanging out.

00:12:31Yeah.

00:12:31Yeah. I had something on my screen. I summoned Gemini. And you get a little

00:12:36chip that's, like, ask about this screen or get help with the screen.

00:12:39And I was, like, add this to my calendar. And it freaking did it. And it was, like,

00:12:45the best thing. I was, like, finally. This is all I've been wanting. But

00:12:51it, it kind of falls apart in other ways when you're, like, I'm, I'm, I'm into Sudoku now.

00:13:00I'm in my Sudoku era. And I was, like, asking Gemini for some Sudoku solving. I was, like,

00:13:07find some videos on YouTube to help me learn Sudokus and add them to a note. And it can do

00:13:15that. Like, it follows instructions. It's, like, okay. And it goes and gets some videos

00:13:20and then opens a note app. It's, like, that is all cool to see that happening. But what it

00:13:26created in the notes app was just a list of video, like, headlines with no link.

00:13:32I did the same thing. I tried it when it first came out just, like, on Gemini web. And it was,

00:13:38I did the same thing. I forget. It was, oh, it was, like, GPU explainers. And it pulled,

00:13:44it pulled, like, five different Google Keep notes that were just the title of the video and

00:13:49nothing else. I was, like, what are we accomplishing here?

00:13:52I know. I was even, like, add hyperlinks to the videos. And it did not do that either.

00:13:59It's rough.

00:14:00Yeah. I have so many examples of just, like,

00:14:04you guys talked about last week, too, on, on the Friday Verticast of, like,

00:14:09when you're fighting with the tool, you're just done. Like, I had to fight with Gemini so many

00:14:15times that I was, like, I don't care that I can, you know, take this detail and have it email my

00:14:21husband or whatever. Like, I can't convince it that I'm leaving, that my flight leaves from

00:14:27San Francisco and not San Jose. It was, like, arguing with me for five minutes about this.

00:14:34And there's so many things in all of that that it feels very obvious that Gemini should be able

00:14:42to do it. And, like, I remember back when Siri could tell you some sports scores but not other

00:14:48sports scores. And there's a thing about that that just feels broken because it's, like, well,

00:14:52if you know the football scores, why don't you know the baseball scores? And I forget which order

00:14:56it was, but it was, there's just something about that that is, like, okay, this, this thing doesn't

00:15:00work. And I don't, I should not have to understand which specific, like,

00:15:04feature flags have been turned on. It just doesn't feel like it works. And I think,

00:15:08in reading your review, the experience you had of asking when someone's flight was landing

00:15:14was one of those where I was, like, this so obviously should work that it is just infuriating

00:15:19that it doesn't.

00:15:20KRISTEN Yeah, and it's one of those things that's, like, I know I can go to Google and just type in,

00:15:25like, Alaska Airlines flight Detroit to Seattle. When does it land? And it's, like, boom,

00:15:30gonna be there. Gemini does this whole dance of, like, oh, I don't know. I'm a large language

00:15:36model. And I'm yelling at it to Google it. I'm, like, I'm not gonna use this tool.

00:15:42BRIAN Yeah, it's like, you're Google. Like, if at the very least,

00:15:47it would just fall back on a Google search.

00:15:49KRISTEN Yeah, exactly.

00:15:50BRIAN Like, the thing that Siri does that sucks is it's, like, here's what I found on the web,

00:15:53but it's, like, always wrong. But, like, Google is Google.

00:15:56KRISTEN I know.

00:15:56BRIAN Just be like, oh, I don't know, but here's a Google search for all the words that you just

00:16:00said. Even that, we would be somewhere.

00:16:02KRISTEN Yep.

00:16:03BRIAN But it can't, okay. Yeah, I feel like this just continues to be the Gemini experience. The

00:16:08thing with the dates and the screen is, like, amazing. And there are just enough moments like

00:16:14that for me with even things like visual intelligence. And a lot of these tools are

00:16:19getting good at that kind of thing where it's, like, I'm, like, here's a list of stuff. Can

00:16:23you add everything on this piece of paper to my grocery list? And, like, it works, and it feels

00:16:27like magic. But then for every one of those, I have found three that it's, like, this is actually

00:16:32easier than the thing that you did that works, and it doesn't work. And I can't figure out why,

00:16:38and it just makes me want to use the tool less and less.

00:16:40KRISTEN I know, yeah. It feels like it does a good job when it has very specific parameters

00:16:46where, like, on the Ultra, it does a good job with, like, note summarization. I just was, like,

00:16:55my kid was sick, and I was trying to type out that note you make for yourself before you go to the

00:17:00pediatrician to be, like, here's when symptoms started, blah, blah, blah, fevers, and it was

00:17:06all just kind of, like, blah. And I used the summer, the, like, rewrite tool to, like, make it

00:17:13make sense. And it did great. And it picked up on the fact that it was, like, a child's

00:17:20illness progression, and it kind of, like, gave it a title like that. I was like, this is good.

00:17:25This is fine. You know, I wasn't asking it to go ask three other apps to do anything, but, you know,

00:17:33we're getting the handle on stuff like that.

00:17:35MIKE Yeah, that's something. I'll take that. So, the other one on the S25 Ultra is the camera.

00:17:40And I think Samsung made, as far as I understand it, two trades on the camera. It got rid of the

00:17:4710x zoom, and it added a 50-megapixel ultra-wide lens. My immediate read of that is I'm very into

00:17:55one of those changes, and I'm very unhappy about the other one. But what's your experience?

00:18:00MEGAN Yeah, the 10x was actually last year. So, the S24 Ultra is when they did the swap.

00:18:05MIKE Oh, okay.

00:18:07MEGAN Yeah, and they added the 5x, and they're like, well, you can just do,

00:18:11you know, digital zoom, remoxaic zoom to 10x.

00:18:16MIKE Which is not correct. It's called cropping.

00:18:18Digital zoom is called cropping. Anyone who says otherwise is selling you something.

00:18:22MEGAN Cropping without upscaling, which is something.

00:18:26MIKE Sure.

00:18:27MEGAN Yeah.

00:18:28MIKE But I do think, so, like, I bring this up in part because I, for the first time this year,

00:18:33went from an iPhone Pro to an iPhone, and so I lost the 5x zoom, and I miss it terribly.

00:18:40MEGAN Yeah.

00:18:40MIKE And I am consistently surprised at how often I miss the 5x zoom.

00:18:45And so, I guess this is, to some extent, now a year-old question, but do you miss the 10x,

00:18:51or does the 5x feel like it does the job for you?

00:18:53MEGAN I miss it because I'm a sicko, and I can see the difference. Like,

00:19:00there's just, I think the difference is that you just amplify the fact that you're using a crappy

00:19:07little lens, and you can see some of the aberrations from the lens more than you could see it with

00:19:14the 10x. This is my theory. I can see a slight difference. Does this matter to most people?

00:19:21Like, no, probably not at all.

00:19:23MIKE Yeah. I mean, I guess from Samsung's perspective, where it's like, okay, we can

00:19:28either add this very expensive thing that makes the phone bigger and all that stuff,

00:19:32or we can get rid of it and people can pinch with their fingers if they really want to.

00:19:35MEGAN Yeah.

00:19:36MIKE I guess I get that trade, but I absolutely, unequivocally do not buy

00:19:41that they are the same thing, and they aren't, and Samsung is lying and should feel bad about

00:19:46itself. But tell me about the ultrawide, because this seems like it's a good trade.

00:19:49MEGAN Yeah, yeah. They just kind of upgraded it from, I believe, a 12 megapixel to a 50 megapixel

00:19:57now. It's got a wider aperture, so it's an f1.9.

00:20:02MIKE Oh, I like that.

00:20:03MEGAN Yeah.

00:20:04MIKE So does that, in theory, mean that with a 50 megapixel ultrawide,

00:20:09you could shoot a lot more often in ultrawide and then just crop as you need to? Like,

00:20:14that's actually an interesting use case of like, you just shoot the most you can,

00:20:20and then because you have more pixels to play with. But then like the, I don't know,

00:20:24the ultrawides always get a little fisheye-y for me, so maybe that's not a perfect solution.

00:20:28MEGAN Yeah, I think you still get a little bit of that. And even like,

00:20:31even in kind of like dim light, the main camera is so much better for like,

00:20:37yeah, getting freezing action and all that. But the ultrawide, like, you know, apples to apples

00:20:43with the previous ultrawide, it definitely is better in low light. It can, it'll complete like

00:20:49a night mode exposure like a little quicker than the previous one. There's a little more detail.

00:20:57It's like, just kind of like check, check, check all the things you would expect from like,

00:21:02a more modern, nice pixel bin sensor. So it's like, yeah, good.

00:21:08MIKE Yeah, I'll take that. Okay, so the S25 Ultra, and I think we'll reserve judgment in

00:21:15case one of the other S25s blows your mind, but I think the story of these is going to be,

00:21:19they're very good phones. If you're in the market for a Galaxy phone, these are the best ones. But

00:21:25there's nothing here that's going to like, blow your socks off or change your life forever. What

00:21:31I'm wondering is, is that just the story of 2025? Like, is this, is this what we're in for? Because

00:21:36the thing that worries me is that this is supposed to be the year that AI does everything for all of

00:21:41our phones forever. And I think we can say with pretty strong confidence that that's not this

00:21:45year. It might happen someday. I'm not willing to rule out that maybe someday AI will get very good.

00:21:50I think it's very unlikely that it's going to happen this year. So what else are we in for this

00:21:55year?

00:21:55CARRIE I think, yeah, it's going to be a lot of, I think we're just in this, this like, headspace

00:22:03of, we're so focused on the hardware launches. And a phone is released, it does X, Y, and Z new

00:22:11things. And then the next year, new phone, you know, and we're in such a different space now of

00:22:19like, the hardware is just the less interesting thing almost. And it's about the software updates

00:22:26that are happening throughout the year. And like, in Samsung especially is like, they put a lot of

00:22:31the AI and the software in previous phones. So it's even less important if you have an S24 and

00:22:38S25, presumably. So I think that's just going to be an adjustment for all of us and just kind of

00:22:45how we think about these things and even how we cover them and use them. Because it's going to

00:22:51be a lot more like, what does this phone do six months later that it didn't do, you know, when it

00:22:58came out? So seeing things like Gemini getting better at a somewhat slow rate, but like being

00:23:09able to do more for us and trying those things out is going to be like, that's going to be my

00:23:15focus for the year, honestly. But like, in the other corner is the weird, like, the slim phone

00:23:22thing, which is like, okay. Like, we've reached a conclusion, I guess, in one side. It's like,

00:23:31the phone is here. Phones look like this. And then they're kind of doing a lateral move of like,

00:23:38what if a phone was really slim?

00:23:40Yeah. I'm into it, honestly. Like,

00:23:43any kind of new idea about what a phone should look like, I'm psyched about right now.

00:23:48Uh, where's your head on foldables and flippables coming into this year? I mean,

00:23:53Samsung kind of teased the tri-fold thing, I think, in that we saw like, an outline,

00:23:59and that's about all we saw. But, you know, we've been on the show for a while talking about,

00:24:05is this the time these things are going to come mainstream? And I do think it's possible

00:24:11to gin up some real excitement about one of those this year, specifically because there is not a

00:24:18ton of like, wild other cool stuff coming that's going to blow people's minds. Like,

00:24:23Apple intelligence is not going to convince hundreds of millions of people to run out

00:24:28and get new iPhones. But like, so does that mean there is potential for Google or Samsung

00:24:33or somebody to like, do the flip phone thing well enough to pull people in? Like,

00:24:38could this be the year that these things start to really take off? Or am I just wishful thinking?

00:24:43I don't know. I feel like I've kind of said that

00:24:46the past three years where I'm like, you know, I don't know, this could be the year. And I just

00:24:51have so many like, interactions with people. When I'm carrying a folding phone or one of the flip

00:24:56phones, so many people will be like, oh, that's that, you know, Samsung phone or Google phone.

00:25:01They're like, I almost bought that. But then I just got the whatever, like, regular slab phone.

00:25:07I think there's like, there's interest, but there's still like, a real hesitation from people

00:25:13because I like, I kind of chalk it up to the durability. I know, I know someone who has like,

00:25:21the third generation Samsung flip. And that thing doesn't look great. Like the inner screen is all

00:25:30like, peeled and gross. I'm like, girl, you need to trade that in. But yeah, that's the kind of

00:25:36thing I'm like, yeah, if I'm like, your phone just has to take so much abuse throughout the day. And

00:25:42I think there's a certain person who's willing to be like, yeah, I want all the benefits of this.

00:25:47And I'm willing to like, accept the risks of the inner screen might do something wonky. I don't

00:25:55know how they, how the manufacturers like, really address that. I think they've been pushing forward

00:26:01as much as they can with the waterproofing, dustproofing. Is that even possible? Like with

00:26:07the hinge, you know, I think they mitigate it as much as they can. And they're kind of like,

00:26:13been beefing up their repair programs. Like Samsung, if you buy their like, Care Plus plan,

00:26:22they'll just repair the inner screen as many times as you want for free.

00:26:25Or like, for not extra money.

00:26:28**Matt Stauffer** But never a great sign that that's a thing they have to offer.

00:26:30**Amy Hansen** I know, yeah. Yeah, they weren't exactly shouting that from the rooftops either.

00:26:36**Matt Stauffer** I will say the Z Flip 6 has appeared in the wild

00:26:44around me more than I would have expected. And I think part of it is like, I notice every one

00:26:48because it's so different looking. But they're out there. Like I saw one in a coffee shop this

00:26:55morning. It's just a person sitting there eating a bacon, egg and cheese, and they had a flip phone

00:26:59on the table. And I was just like, let's go. They were almost certainly an Amazon employee,

00:27:03because I was like at HQ2 at this coffee shop. So make of that what you will. But I think if

00:27:10it's going to be anything this year, there might be a folding phone that gets closer.

00:27:19I have no particular reason to bet on that, but it feels like that is pushing towards

00:27:24being the right size and shape faster than the foldable phones are. And I say that the Pixel 9

00:27:30Pro Fold, stupid name, kicks ass. It's a great phone. There's so many good things about it.

00:27:36But the problem with those is they're still $1,800. And so I wouldn't be shocked to see

00:27:41Samsung come out and try to knock that price down substantially. But also the fact that

00:27:50these phones now didn't go down substantially doesn't necessarily give me great faith that

00:27:54that's going to come.

00:27:55CM- I know. And they've been so stagnant on the fold. It's like every year for the past three

00:28:02years has been like, well, it's like two millimeters wider.

00:28:06PW- Right.

00:28:06CM- This is it.

00:28:08PW- Very slowly pulling at the edges of the thing.

00:28:11CM- They're just stretching it a little bit. I don't know. That's the only thing that's

00:28:16making me pessimistic about the foldables, particularly Samsung's foldables.

00:28:23I haven't seen it. I don't know. Is there really like a fire there to go out and capture the

00:28:32market for it? Or are they just kind of like, I don't know, people aren't buying these things

00:28:36like we thought they would?

00:28:37PW- It sure seems like it's that. But I think there is a chicken and egg thing going on there.

00:28:42Last question, and then I'll let you go. If there was going to be one phone company that

00:28:47shocks us this year, does something no one would have expected, who would you bet it's going to be?

00:28:52CM- I feel like, well, I feel like the wild card is nothing.

00:28:57PW- That's what I was going to say too.

00:28:58CM- Yeah. Okay. Because they've been kind of like not on the radar for a minute. I'm like,

00:29:04what might they be doing? I feel like it's a company with like enough interesting ideas

00:29:11and enough kind of like, they've established connections and supply chains. And I think

00:29:18maybe they're going to be in a place to like, flex a little bit. I would be really interested.

00:29:24I don't have any specific idea of what that could be. It just sort of feels like,

00:29:29yeah, they could do something.

00:29:30PW- Yeah. Yeah. Carl Pei, Nothing's CEO has always said that they did not exist to be a

00:29:36phone company. And it does seem like they're not like a real competitor in this space yet

00:29:44next to Apple and Samsung. But like you said, they're established. Like that company has proven

00:29:48they can do the thing. And I kind of hope this is the year that they're like, okay, here are our

00:29:54actual ideas. I'm with you. I think if anybody's going to do it in a way that is like cool and

00:30:00exciting, I would bet on nothing. I have high hopes on that one. All right, Alison, thank you

00:30:05as always. There's going to be so many more folks. It's MWC soon. Are you going to MWC?

00:30:10Yeah. I am booked. I'm ready for some jamon and phones.

00:30:15That is the one and only thing I miss about MWC is the jamon.

00:30:20It's a good, good thing.

00:30:21Well, we're going to have to hang while you're in Barcelona, but thank you as always. It's great

00:30:24to see you.

00:30:25All right. Thank you.

00:30:27All right. We got to take a break and then we're going to come back and talk about China.

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00:32:39All right. We're back.

00:32:41So one of the questions that has been swirling really in the last few weeks

00:32:43few years is this question about how we should think about China's role on the Internet.

00:32:50As we've talked about the TikTok ban, we've talked kind of ad nauseum about this idea

00:32:54of the Chinese government being able to get our personal data from TikTok and do something

00:33:01with it. Then people left TikTok and went to RedNote, which is an app that is much more

00:33:05straightforwardly connected to China. There have been all these questions about DeepSeek's

00:33:09connection to China and how we should think about using an AI model from China or an AI

00:33:16model from a company from China. This question of what we should be thinking about China,

00:33:23not like big macro politically, but like as people on the Internet, is the thing that

00:33:28I have struggled with and would love to have somebody just talk me through. So that's what

00:33:33we're going to try and do in the next little while here.

00:33:36I asked Cooper Quinton, who's a senior staff technologist at the EFF, the Electronic Frontier

00:33:41Foundation, to come on and just walk me through how he thinks about all of this. Cooper does

00:33:46things like help activists think about security training, and he works with nonprofits and

00:33:52vulnerable populations, all thinking about how to operate online in a safe and productive

00:33:58and private and useful way. He's also somebody who's been thinking about China specifically

00:34:03a lot for a long time, and he is just going to walk me through how we're supposed to think

00:34:09about all of this, how it should weigh on our decisions about what we use and what data

00:34:13we reveal and whether we want TikTok to be banned or sold or whatever. We're just going

00:34:18to try to make sense of it all. So let's just dive in. Cooper, welcome to the show. So I

00:34:23guess maybe the easiest place to start is like, let's just lay the land a little bit

00:34:26in terms of like, what are you thinking about and researching and talking to folks about

00:34:31right now as it pertains to China in particular, but also just kind of the Internet more broadly?

00:34:36Like, what's your angle on this space right now?

00:34:38So for me, there's two topics that I'm interested in and that I think both come up when we're

00:34:45talking about this. One is surveillance capitalism and this sort of industry of data

00:34:53brokers and selling your data and like all of this industry that the Internet has really

00:35:00been built on. And how your data flows and like whether you have control of it and what

00:35:06can be done with that. And there's some really interesting things in there like law

00:35:11enforcement buying access to that data so that they don't have to deal with pesky things

00:35:17like warrants. So that's all really interesting to me. The other thing that I've studied

00:35:23pretty extensively in my time at EFF is malware and spyware, specifically the types of spyware

00:35:30that are used to spy on activists, journalists, human rights defenders, and people who are

00:35:38trying to exercise free expression and trying to improve their lives and fight against their

00:35:47governments or governments of countries which they used to be a part of oftentimes. Oftentimes

00:35:52these are people who have left their countries for fear of repression and are still doing

00:35:57the work of fighting against corruption in the country that they left. And so in the

00:36:02conversations around TikTok and around Redbook and around DeepSeek, I see echoes of all of

00:36:08these topics.

00:36:09Interesting. How so? What echoes are you seeing right now?

00:36:13To go back a little bit, I think that the reaction to TikTok going away and people starting

00:36:21to join Little Redbook is really funny.

00:36:26The fact that Rednote is actually technically called Little Redbook is one of my favorite

00:36:30discoveries of 2025. Enjoyed that to no end. It is the funniest and most direct beyond-parody

00:36:38thing we could have possibly done in that moment.

00:36:40Should we break that down? Because I think it's really interesting.

00:36:44Sure, please.

00:36:45Little Redbook is Mao's Little Redbook. This was one of the main tracts of Maoism that

00:36:52was given out to people in revolutionary China. It'd be like calling an American social

00:37:02network the Federalist Papers or something like that. It's so on the nose. This is an

00:37:10application of the CCP. Absolutely, 100%. We're not pretending otherwise. But the reaction

00:37:20to me was so funny. It's such a prototypical reaction of a 13-year-old.

00:37:29We're going to have to ban TikTok because we don't want your data going to China. There's

00:37:34some serious privacy issues and national security issues here. People's reaction was,

00:37:40oh, you don't want me to like China, huh? You don't want me to like China? Guess what?

00:37:45I love China. I'm going to give China all my data. I am mailing a copy of my birth

00:37:51certificate to Xi Jinping right now. I saw videos of people pretending to put data in

00:37:59an envelope and mail it to the Chinese government. It's a really funny reaction because people are

00:38:07like, yeah, I know. I know that they're taking all my data. I don't care. Why should I care?

00:38:16You took all my data anyway. U.S. companies took all my data. Meta took all my data.

00:38:22Twitter took all my data. The U.S. government has all my data and is constantly being leaked.

00:38:28So why do I care if China has it? In fact, because you don't like that,

00:38:34it makes me want to do it even more, right? And it's so interesting to me.

00:38:40I'm forever somewhat compelled by that argument. I think it's so easy in this time that we live in

00:38:48to fall into that particular brand of nihilism, which is like, look, if China wants to know

00:38:52information about me, China has so many ways that are more efficient than developing a social

00:38:58network. I struggle with this personally. A, how much of this is real threat versus potential,

00:39:08maybe possible, several steps down the road threat? And what does it mean in a practical sense

00:39:16that someone in the Chinese government can theoretically find out what I watch on TikTok?

00:39:20Who cares? I intellectually know that that's an argument that will lead only to

00:39:27ruin and trouble, but I kind of understand how people land there.

00:39:31Yeah, definitely. I mean, it is a form of privacy nihilism, right?

00:39:36Yeah, yeah.

00:39:37At the end of the day, absolutely. But it's understandable that people have come to privacy

00:39:44nihilism, right? We don't have anything that anybody can do in terms of laws, in terms of

00:39:55litigation. There are no legal protections for people's data, right? Zero. Unless you happen

00:40:01to live in California, where there's some okay privacy laws, that still don't seem to prevent

00:40:10this data from ending up in the hands of these corporations. It just means that you can go

00:40:14request your data and remove your data, which is better than nothing.

00:40:16For sure.

00:40:17But I think it's understandable why people end up with this sort of privacy nihilism,

00:40:24right? Because we've accepted as a – maybe accepted isn't the right word, but as a society,

00:40:34this is where we're at, right? You will give up your data in exchange for some kind of crappy

00:40:41services from Facebook, and there's nothing you can do about it. Because if you want to

00:40:46participate in society, you have to be on these kind of crappy services.

00:40:50So how do you understand the difference between what it means to do that to a company like Google

00:40:57or Meta, and doing that with a country or a government like the Chinese Communist Party?

00:41:05Are those meaningfully different things? I think we have a hard time talking about

00:41:10what China is and what that threat looks like, and why that is dangerous in a way that having it in

00:41:15Google servers isn't or is differently dangerous. How do you think through the difference there?

00:41:21I always say it depends on your threat model, right? If you have family in China, if you have

00:41:26friends in China, or if you work in national security, or if your work is related to something

00:41:37that has historically been a target of Chinese espionage, then that's one very specific threat

00:41:44model, where the CCP actually should be in your threat model. You don't want to

00:41:52search for Taiwan or Tiananmen Square and have that come back to investigation of your family

00:42:03in China. And if you're in an industry that is the target of Chinese espionage,

00:42:10this information that you give could be used for phishing or other more targeted espionage attacks.

00:42:22Phishing is a really interesting one, by the way. I've heard a couple of folks mention that

00:42:27in this context in a way that I have actually found really instructive, because that's a good

00:42:31example of things you know about what I watch on TikTok become ways in which to appear to be

00:42:39someone I know or have information about me that you can then use to get other more dangerous

00:42:45information about me. And I think that, to me, is... Because it's like, if I'm not taking a

00:42:50picture of my bank account information and posting it on TikTok, the sort of direct threat there is

00:42:56lesser, but there's this data you can use to understand me better, which you can use to get

00:43:01other information out of me. That's the kind of step I think people often fail to understand.

00:43:06But it's still hard for me, though, to see actually a meaningful difference,

00:43:10right? Because this data already exists anyway, right? Meta has this data, Google has this data,

00:43:16right? And so do a dozen data brokers, right? Journalists keep showing that you can

00:43:26get people's location in near real-time just from the advertising bid stream, which is where, like,

00:43:34when you are using an app or whatever, and ads are showing up, people are bidding in real-time

00:43:39on who gets to sell you ads. And that data is... And there's data in there about your demographics,

00:43:45how old you are, what kind of phone you have, what your interests are. There's data about

00:43:49your location, right? All of this data is just flowing around the internet all the time.

00:43:54And there's no reason that the CCP can't just get that data from that source, right? Like,

00:44:02there's no reason that they can't get it by taking out ads in Meta, right? Like, there's

00:44:07no reason they can't create a US cutout and make a partnership with Meta or with Google to get this

00:44:15data. So, like, they can get it directly from, you know, Little Red Book or, you know, possibly

00:44:22from TikTok. There are easier ways to get the data, actually, right? Like, the target audience

00:44:29for Little Red Book was not, like, data collection of Americans, right? Like, this was, like, a

00:44:36kind of Pinterest-like application, like, kind of an intersection between, like, Pinterest and TikTok,

00:44:41right? That was primarily targeted at, like, people and women in China and people, like,

00:44:48talking to relatives or whatever in China, right? Like, this was targeted at Chinese people in

00:44:53China, right? So, like, there are other ways to get this data. And it's all, like, none of it is

00:45:01good, to be clear. I was going to say, you sound an awful lot like a privacy nihilist.

00:45:06Right. No. Yeah. It's so easy to go into privacy nihilism talking about this, right? But, like,

00:45:14and I think people are correctly frustrated with Silicon Valley oligarchs and, like,

00:45:19US surveillance capitalism, right? It's a bad industry that should not exist, right? Like,

00:45:27this is not a good thing. I don't think that trading in that for CCP surveillance is going

00:45:37to make anyone's lives meaningfully better, right? Like, they are both bad. Two things can be bad,

00:45:44right? They are both bad in different ways. And in a lot of the same ways, right? Like, in the end,

00:45:50the most useful, like, for 99% of people, the most lucrative use of this data is going to,

00:45:58for the CCP, is going to be to sell it and sell advertisements off it, the same way that it is

00:46:04for Silicon Valley, right? Like, surveillance capitalism cuts both ways for both organizations,

00:46:11right? Yeah. So, I guess, if the way of thinking about it is, it's definitely not a better choice

00:46:18to give that data to the CCP instead of to Google or Meta. Is it a substantially worse choice to do

00:46:25that? Again, I think we should carve out the people who have, like you were saying, the sort

00:46:30of obvious threat models. I think there's a set of people who should think about all of this,

00:46:36like, minute to minute and day to day more carefully. And we can talk about those people,

00:46:40but I think for the people who ask you questions like, who cares? I have nothing to hide.

00:46:45Is it that different a trade? I really don't think that it is. Like,

00:46:48I don't see any good argument that it's that different of a trade, right? And what we need,

00:46:55and maybe, stop me if I'm jumping the gun here, but like, we need desperately federal privacy law.

00:47:03We desperately need federal laws that let us control our data, that let us stop our data

00:47:10from being sold, that let us actually have meaningful opt-in consent into who we give

00:47:17our data to, an understanding of what's being done with that data, and a private right of action to

00:47:22sue when companies misuse our data or take our data without our consent. This would go a long

00:47:28way to solving the problem of the CCP stealing people's data. This would go a long way to solving

00:47:35the problem of Silicon Valley surveillance capitalism and Meta and Google stealing people's

00:47:40data, right? This would go a long way to solving the problem of the constant background noise of

00:47:45data breaches, right? And data being breached and then used in phishing campaigns and everything

00:47:52else, right? Data breaches are another angle. Like, one could argue that like, you know,

00:47:58Google and Meta have pretty good security teams and like, your data is safer from a data breach

00:48:04with them than it is in, you know, in the hands of some of these Chinese apps, right? But I don't

00:48:12think that that's a strong argument because data breaches still happen all the time in the U.S.,

00:48:17right? Like, there's all sorts of data breaches every day. And, you know, even if Google and Meta

00:48:23themselves aren't getting breached yet, and I think, you know, on a long enough timeline,

00:48:27the probability approach is 100% that there will be a data breach from one of these companies,

00:48:33right? But like, even if those haven't been data, like, breached yet, they still have that data and

00:48:38they still sell it in the form of ad targeting, right? So like, it doesn't need to be breached

00:48:43when you can just buy it. Right. So is it possible then that one reason to think about keeping this

00:48:52data in the United States is that, you know, in theory, we live in a democracy that can,

00:48:55in theory, pass laws and that if we are able to regulate this, at least we can like retroactively

00:49:02make some of this stuff better in a way that whatever you're dumping onto RedNote is gone and

00:49:07lost and there's nothing you can do about it? I feel like I just said like 11 glass-half-full

00:49:12things in a row to get to that point. But is that at least an argument that sort of makes sense?

00:49:18I think it's a very optimistic argument.

00:49:23Listen, I said theoretically a bunch of times.

00:49:25But yeah, I mean, you know, certainly if we one day have a functioning Congress and, you know,

00:49:35certainly if we were ever to get any sort of federal privacy law, right? Domestic privacy law.

00:49:42So yeah, it is possible that that could apply to retroactively gather data about you. And that is,

00:49:48I guess that is one reason. It's not, I mean, I think you yourself would admit it's not the

00:49:53most compelling reason. No, it's not. Yeah. There's another compelling reason not to have

00:49:59any of these apps on your phone, which is just that like, and the compelling reason is who do

00:50:05you trust to run code on your phone, right? Like who do you trust to have control of your phone?

00:50:12And I think a lot of people will say, I don't care if Meta or the CCP has control of my phone,

00:50:17right? As a form of, again, privacy nihilism. I don't know. I think each person needs to

00:50:23do a little bit of threat modeling and think about that, right? Like for whatever it's worth,

00:50:29Google and Facebook have pretty good security engineering, right? And like people have looked

00:50:35at these apps where I was like, so these other apps don't have as good a security engineering

00:50:39necessarily, right? So like the possibility that you'll be putting an app on your phone, which is

00:50:46poorly programmed and is not using things like HTTPS, is not using other kind of standard

00:50:53technologies and is therefore like leaking your data and causing potential security issues,

00:50:59right? Like that is a thing that I think people should consider.

00:51:03Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Can you walk me through how you think about

00:51:07kind of the average person's threat modeling? I mean, you mentioned kind of that first rung of

00:51:11people who have some direct threat in sort of the one degree removed from like a real possible

00:51:20threat. But I think that's a big group of people. I think that's a bigger group of people than we

00:51:25often give it credit for, but that's not everybody. And I think there are lots of

00:51:29people who are not even sure how to think about those threat models. Like how do you

00:51:34talk people through how to think about that stuff?

00:51:37Sure. Unfortunately for a large percentage of Americans, the US government is a very big

00:51:44obvious threat, right? Like anybody who is an immigrant here, right? Anybody who is a,

00:51:51you know, not a born citizen, but a, you know, on a visa or a citizen, you know, through a

00:51:58green card or anybody who is trans, right? Or gender non-binary, right? Like the obvious

00:52:08threats from the American government, unfortunately, are much more real than any, you know,

00:52:14sort of perceived threats, you know, future threats from the CCP. But like the way that I

00:52:19would kind of walk people through this is to, you know, first think about like what you know,

00:52:25where you work, what access you have that could be interesting to other people, right? Like,

00:52:30for example, if you work in telecom, right? Like if you work at AT&T or Verizon, right? Like,

00:52:36or one of those phone companies, look at what just happened with Salt Typhoon, right? Like you

00:52:41are definitely a potential target for espionage. You know, anybody who works for the government

00:52:47is a potential target for espionage, right? You know, obviously people that have family there,

00:52:51we kind of went over that, right? Like that's a pretty obvious threat model there. I think some

00:52:56of the less obvious threat models are like industry, right? Like anybody in any industry

00:53:02can obviously be a target. Like we know that, you know, there've been espionage from China on like,

00:53:08you know, the medical or, you know, the sort of drug industry in America, right? And like

00:53:13aviation industry and things like that. You might also not really care about that, right? Like,

00:53:19you might look at your situation being paid poorly in the drug industry and be like,

00:53:24what do I care if, you know, if Chinese spies want to use me to get to patent documents?

00:53:32Fish away, friends. Yeah.

00:53:34Right? Like they should pay me more if they want me to care about that. And that's pretty

00:53:38understandable. The consequences for you could actually be pretty severe, right? Like even if

00:53:44you were an unwilling participant. So I don't think it should be actually treated that cavalierly.

00:53:50Overall, I think that most people like don't face that severe threat of like Chinese espionage. And

00:53:58if you do, I don't think it's going to significantly matter whether you use TikTok or Little Red Book

00:54:04or not, right? Like the CIA existed long before the internet did, right? Espionage can be done

00:54:13just fine without this sort of data. This sort of data does help.

00:54:18For sure.

00:54:19So you think there are people who could do a pretty rational threat modeling of their own

00:54:26life and come out of it and say, I'm good. Let the CCP have my data. It's going to be fine. Like

00:54:34you think that there are people for whom that is like a reasonable, rational outcome?

00:54:38I don't think that that is totally reasonable. That is a rational outcome in the lens of privacy

00:54:45nihilism, right? Sure. The rational outcome is I don't want anybody to have my data, right? Like

00:54:52my data is mine. I want to control it. Nobody needs to know what I enjoy thinking about and

00:54:58looking at, right? Like that's actually just not data that needs to be out there because I don't

00:55:03trust the CCP to handle it any more responsibly than I trust Facebook to handle it, right?

00:55:09But for somebody who's looking at it through the lens of privacy nihilism and is saying,

00:55:12like Facebook already has all my data anyway, how is it different? I think that there's a large

00:55:18percentage of people out there for whom a reasonable answer is there's not a meaningful

00:55:23difference. Yeah, that's totally fair. So given that then, why do you think kind of societally

00:55:30we talk about China and data privacy and security so differently than we talk about

00:55:38companies like Meta and Google? And I do think there are maybe more examples than often get

00:55:43credit for of us talking about them the same way, right? I think the idea that these things are all

00:55:50collecting data they shouldn't be and using it in ways they shouldn't be is pretty true across

00:55:55the board. But even now, the way that people have worked themselves up about the personal

00:56:04data being shared on TikTok and collected by the CCP hit a fever pitch that I don't remember with

00:56:11Google or Facebook or really anything. Why do you think China is so different?

00:56:15I mean, I think there's a couple of reasons. One is the openness of government surveillance

00:56:25in China, right? Government surveillance and control of speech is done openly in a way

00:56:35that makes Americans very uncomfortable. With a strong First Amendment history, right? I think

00:56:43Americans are definitely uncomfortable with any time the government says you're not allowed to

00:56:50say these things. Anybody who's ideologically consistent should say that. Oftentimes,

00:56:56people are comfortable with the government truncating speech they don't like. People

00:57:02want to make it legal to run over protesters on highways or not to seem partisan here. People

00:57:10aren't comfortable with people talking about guns, right? But for the most part, we tend to not want

00:57:15the government to curtail that, right? We also, I think as Americans, like our government

00:57:21surveillance kind of hidden from us, right? We don't really want it in your face, right? We're

00:57:27okay with police having license plate readers, and we're okay with whatever the NSA has to do as

00:57:36long as it's to get the bad guys. In China, the surveillance is very much more in the open,

00:57:41right? It's sort of targeted at everybody, right? And I think that even if you could argue

00:57:48like surveillance in America is just as bad, right? Or it is just as prevalent, at least.

00:57:54I think that there's a difference in how it feels to Americans. And then the other part of this is,

00:58:01of course, just, you know, good old-fashioned xenophobia, right? China is scary.

00:58:07Like, you know, just all the sort of old, you know, like, well, you don't want to be like China,

00:58:13right? Like, this is America, this isn't China. We don't do things like that here. You don't want

00:58:18China to have your data, right? Like, it's just kind of like, well, that's those other guys. And

00:58:25like, you can trust us, but you can't trust them. Honestly, I think it's that, right? Like, I think

00:58:30that's a big part of it. At my most cynical, I'd say a big part of it is just is being mad

00:58:37that they're not getting a cut of the data or a cut of the profits, right? Like, you're like,

00:58:44we are okay with Facebook collecting this data and then China buying it from Facebook or buying

00:58:52ad targeting or whatever from Facebook because U.S. companies are getting a cut. We're not okay

00:58:59with it just going straight to China, right? Like, that would be my most cynical take on it, right?

00:59:06Yeah.

00:59:06Like, we got to get our cut?

00:59:08That's a good take. I hadn't heard that one, but that rings truer than I would like it to.

00:59:13It does, and I hate it.

00:59:14It does. I don't like it, but I'm going to keep hearing that in my head for a while.

00:59:19Let's end on a positive and productive note here.

00:59:22Yes.

00:59:23We want to keep people out of privacy nihilism. I think it is an understandable place to go,

00:59:29but it is a place we should all do our best to avoid going. In the absence of

00:59:34these kind of big structural improvements you're talking about that I think we absolutely are in

00:59:39agreement ought to exist, what can people do? Like, what's a useful thing that people can do

00:59:47to start pushing this stuff at least a little bit in the right direction for themselves?

00:59:50So, the privacy nihilism is so rampant right now. I think it's more rampant than I've ever seen it.

00:59:57And I'm going to say clearly and unequivocally, privacy is not dead.

01:00:03You can still have privacy. Surveillance capitalism is not an inevitability.

01:00:10And there are lots of things you can do. Getting off of meta products is a great place to start.

01:00:19Uninstall Instagram from your phone. Get off Facebook. See if this improves your life.

01:00:25There are a lot of really interesting social networks which are popping up right now which

01:00:30are not based on the model of surveillance capitalism and which are not owned by

01:00:35tech oligarchs. So, things like BlueSky, things like Mastodon, I think are really interesting

01:00:42models for what social media without surveillance capitalism could look like.

01:00:48And doing things like looking at what apps are on your phone. If you can uninstall most of the

01:00:56apps on your phone, and you can. That's a great place to start. Do I really need an app for my

01:01:02grocery store? No. No, I don't. And I don't need it and I don't want it. I think pushing back on

01:01:08those things, there are so many places now which want us to install an app just to get basic

01:01:14services. And just kind of refusing to do that. I'm with the boomers on this one, man. No, I refuse

01:01:20to install an app to eat at a restaurant. I refuse to install an app to shop at CVS. I will not be

01:01:27doing this. I think that that's a good place to start. Installing ad blockers. There are some

01:01:34really good ad blockers out there. EFF makes one called Privacy Badger. There's another one called

01:01:39uBlock Origin. Those are both great ad blockers. If you're a bit more technical, there's a

01:01:47project called PiHole that lets you set up your own ad blocking DNS on your network.

01:01:54This is something you can set up on your home network to prevent a lot of the

01:01:58tracking that goes on. If you want to go even a little bit more down the rabbit hole,

01:02:03things like turning off location services on your phone, unless you're using it for navigation,

01:02:08this is a great way to stop your location from ending up in these sort of data broker

01:02:14repositories. There are a lot of services which will delete your data off the internet and try

01:02:19to scrub your data wherever possible. Things like Delete Me. They all have pros and cons, but

01:02:25checking one of those out can definitely be worth it. If you're in California doing things like

01:02:30requesting copies of your data from companies using the California Privacy Rights Act, the CPRA

01:02:36laws, this can be really interesting too. Request copies of your data, request to delete your data.

01:02:44Yeah, there's lots of things you can do. Also, the biggest long-term thing you can do,

01:02:50because these are all band-aids, I want to acknowledge that these are all

01:02:55similar to telling people to turn off the lights to stop climate change. The privacy problem that

01:03:02we have is a systemic problem that's not going to be solved by individual piecemeal action. We

01:03:08need a systemic solution for this, and that is comprehensive federal privacy law. A good thing

01:03:16you can do is call your representatives, call your senators, call your congressmen, and explain to

01:03:23them how important this is, how important it is to you, why it's so important, and get them to

01:03:29understand that this is important. Get them to understand that this is important to their

01:03:32constituents, so that maybe one day we actually can have this systemic real solution to this

01:03:40problem instead of just having everybody try to solve it for themselves. But the important

01:03:47takeaway here is if you do give up, if you give up on privacy, they win. These companies win if

01:03:54you give up on privacy. And if it was impossible to have privacy, they wouldn't spend so much

01:04:00money on trying to convince you that it was impossible to have privacy and that it was a

01:04:05great thing to give up all your data. I like that. That's a good place to end on.

01:04:13You've just made me realize it's been a really long time since I did a full delete of all the

01:04:16apps on my phone. It's time to get rid of some apps. This is good advice. This is now my weekend

01:04:21project. I'm going to get rid of every app on my phone that I possibly can. And I assume that the

01:04:26answer to that is pretty much all of them. Yeah, I love deleting apps. It's my favorite thing. It

01:04:31makes me feel so good. Cooper, thank you so much for doing this. This is helpful. I learned a ton,

01:04:37and I'm very grateful for your time. Yeah, thank you for having me on. It was my pleasure.

01:04:42All right, we got to take one more break, and then we're going to come back and do a

01:04:45question from the Vergecast hotline. We'll be right back.

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01:05:55All right, we're back. Let's get to the hotline. As always, the number is 866-VERGE-11.

01:05:59The email is vergecast at theverge.com. We love all your questions. Thank you again to everybody

01:06:04who has been emailing and calling about how you use AI in your regular day-to-day life. It's been

01:06:10so interesting. I have enjoyed every single one that we've gotten. Please keep all your responses

01:06:14coming on that and on everything else. This week, we have a question about a somewhat surprising

01:06:20gadget that I haven't thought about in a very long time. Let's hear it. Hey, Vergecast. It is Rob.

01:06:26I might be the only power user of this device, kind of a pandemic holdover,

01:06:32but around the pandemic, I had children and thus was calling my parents, my kids' grandparents,

01:06:38quite often using the Facebook now MetaPortal. That device is kind of part of Facebook's push

01:06:44into hardware, and they've since deprecated it. It worked for about a year after the announcement

01:06:48was made, but has recently started dying. The main use case for us is literally just calling

01:06:55my parents at dinner when we're with our kids, kind of a nice hands-free

01:06:59FaceTime-type experience. I was wondering if you'll have any recommendations for

01:07:04other dedicated portal-calling-type devices I could use for my kids and me to call my parents,

01:07:11their grandparents. Yeah, that's pretty much it. Thanks so much. Appreciate what y'all do.

01:07:17All right. Jen Tuohy is here to help me. Hi, Jen.

01:07:19Hi, David.

01:07:20Did you ever have a portal?

01:07:22Um, I tested the Portal Go. I never owned one myself. I do have several friends who owned one,

01:07:29though, because it really did. I think it appealed to a lot of non-techie people during the pandemic.

01:07:35So I'm sad to hear that they're pretty much dead and dying now, though. That's really sad.

01:07:41It is a real bummer. I bought the Portal TV during the pandemic, and we used it a ton. I was so

01:07:48shocked at how good that thing was as a microphone, especially. We would just sit on the couch and we

01:07:54would play games with our friends over Zoom, which is, A, insane to remember and think about all of

01:08:00the time that we spent doing that. But the thing kind of worked, and I'm sort of bummed to hear

01:08:05that I, frankly, have not plugged mine in in a long time. But I'm sad that they're going away.

01:08:10And I will say, I looked this up, and Meta claims that it is continuing to support existing ones.

01:08:16So the first thing you can do is reach out to Meta. There is a,

01:08:20I would say, small but non-zero chance they might do something for you. But

01:08:25I'm curious where your head goes as far as replacement devices. I think of a couple of

01:08:31possibilities that we can get into, and I'm curious if there's anything that immediately

01:08:34comes to mind for you. CM- Yeah, well, I think the most obvious alternative, and probably the

01:08:40one I would actually have recommended to people rather than buying this in the first place,

01:08:44except for one reason, is an Echo Show. Because Amazon really has kind of perfected the Alexa

01:08:51calling experience, as much as it does still have some rough edges, but it is very universal. Like,

01:08:58the other person doesn't have to have an Echo Show for you to use it as a calling device. They

01:09:03just have to have the Alexa app on their phone. So you're not limited by hardware. And it works

01:09:10very well. And the new Echo Show devices have the kind of tracking. So if you're sitting,

01:09:16having your kids talk to their grandparents, you know, you don't have to make sure they're

01:09:20sitting right in front of the camera. And the Portal had that too. It has that kind of,

01:09:26the, what is it? It's got a technical term.

01:09:28CB- Yeah, it's like the automatic pan and zoom that keeps you in frame, which I find sort of

01:09:34unnerving in a lot of cases. But for this one use case, I think is like, exactly. Like chasing a

01:09:39child around is the one good use case for this technology.

01:09:43JG- It is. And the Echo Show 8 and Echo Show 10 would be sort of my go-tos. The Echo Show 8

01:09:49is the less expensive, similar size to the Portal, similar features. You know,

01:09:54it doesn't sound like he used any of the other features of the Portal, but you can, you know,

01:09:58it works as a photo frame. There are other things you can do with it. Obviously has the voice

01:10:02assistant built in. And the Echo Show, the current one has the framing, the auto-framing.

01:10:10And then the Echo Show 10 is actually on a robotic arm and will follow you around. So like,

01:10:15if you were having a conversation in the kitchen, it will follow you as you go. It's an older device

01:10:22now and it's still quite expensive though. It's $250. So...

01:10:25CB- Okay. I mean, the Portals are pretty expensive too. So I think on that front,

01:10:29that's not so terrible. Like it's definitely like $100 more than I'd like it to be,

01:10:33but I feel like that's still in the realm of like, if it solves this problem, so be it. Okay. I have

01:10:39two questions about the Echo Show though. One is like, convince me that Alexa calling is actually

01:10:45good. Because A, I used Alexa calling when it first came out and it was not good. Like not

01:10:49good to the point that I kind of stopped trying. And B, I do occasionally have to use Chime,

01:10:54which is Amazon's like own video calling service. And like the people who make Chime

01:11:02think Chime sucks. Like that is reporting. Like they don't like it. It's bad. Everyone agrees.

01:11:08But you're telling me Alexa calling now is good.

01:11:11JG- Yeah. I mean, is there a really good video calling service out there? I mean,

01:11:16maybe FaceTime. But the problem with FaceTime is everyone has to have an Apple device,

01:11:21and if grandparents have an Apple device and everyone has an Apple device, maybe use an iPad

01:11:27if you don't already have one. That's a good choice. We are hearing rumours that there's

01:11:31going to be an iPad on an arm that will move around one day. So if you can wait, wait and

01:11:36see if that comes out, if you're an Apple household, but you're limited with iPads to

01:11:41people that can use FaceTime. And Alexa calling with its universal aspect, I feel like is a good

01:11:49bet. And they've been refining it and making it better over the years. You can also use your Echo

01:11:54show to make phone calls too. So you can just call someone's landline or cell phone, not video

01:12:01calling, but you know, it's like a phone for your home, which, you know, it's kind of weird because

01:12:05we don't have those anymore.

01:12:07JG- It is true. And there is something to the phone that is just in a place on a table that

01:12:12you kind of go to when you want to, particularly for kids. It's like having them. It's one thing,

01:12:18I try to hand my two-year-old my phone and he just throws it on the ground and runs away.

01:12:21But there's something too, it's like, this is where the phone is and they go to it. That

01:12:25actually kind of works.

01:12:26CM- For sure. And when you have younger than you, but younger than my kids who don't have phones,

01:12:33but maybe old enough to be home alone for 30 minutes, they don't have a phone. So if something

01:12:39happened, you know, now you can actually use Alexa to call. They can say, call mum and call you,

01:12:45or call 911. You know, not having landlines in our homes has kind of opened up this kind of weird

01:12:53grey area, especially when you have kids at home. So I feel like an Echo Show is a good solution

01:12:58here. If you aren't a fan of the Amazon side of things, you know, I think the Apple option,

01:13:06the iPad is probably your best other choice. Video calling as a whole has kind of dropped off

01:13:12the cliff since the end of the pandemic. You know, when the portal launched, it had like

01:13:18seven different services you could use. So it had Zoom, you had WhatsApp, Facebook, all of that. I

01:13:23don't think there is any other way you can use WhatsApp or Facebook on a video calling device

01:13:28today that I can think of.

01:13:30JW That's right. I've done a fair amount of research on this now, because I assume

01:13:34the people, like, A, I think there are a lot of people out there whose main connection to family

01:13:40is through one of those two apps, Messenger or WhatsApp. And I also think there's a strong

01:13:44chance that if you are still now a portal user, it's because it works because of those two things,

01:13:50right? So my assumption, Rob, our caller didn't say, but my assumption is that the reason this

01:13:56is hard to replace is because of WhatsApp and Messenger. And on that front, you're just hosed.

01:14:03There just isn't a good answer.

01:14:05No, a laptop.

01:14:07JW Yeah, a laptop works fine, an iPad works fine.

01:14:10A Yeah, you could do an iPad for WhatsApp video calling.

01:14:13JW They're just such overkill. And I kind of feel like-

01:14:15A It's overkill, yeah. And movable.

01:14:18JW Well, yeah, true.

01:14:19A An iPad, if you think it's hard to take a cell phone out of your kid's hand,

01:14:23try taking an iPad. I mean, it'll get used for other things. Again, this is why I'm kind of

01:14:28excited about whatever Apple is going to come up with in terms of a home device. Because yes,

01:14:33you could use an iPad as a WhatsApp calling device if it was fixed somewhere in your house

01:14:39for children. Obviously, you can use it if it moves too. But the kid aspect is a tablet isn't

01:14:43going to stay fixed. Although speaking of, as we've mentioned this, I'm sitting here staring

01:14:49at my Pixel tablet, which could be another option. You could do WhatsApp calling through that. Again,

01:14:57it's not fixed, but you can take it off the speaker. But that would be another option.

01:15:05I just don't feel that comfortable recommending Pixel hardware right now.

01:15:09JW That is very fair. Well, I have another Google

01:15:12question, which we should come to in a second. But I will say, I think a non-ridiculous answer to

01:15:19sort of solving this problem is just to find the cheapest Android tablet you possibly can.

01:15:23A Yeah, yeah.

01:15:23Because the camera will be fine. It will run all these apps on Android, which is,

01:15:28I think, the way to solve your compatibility problem. It's not going to be nearly as clean

01:15:33and useful and dedicated as something like the Portal was. But if you're just like,

01:15:37I just need a thing I can prop on a coffee mug and put in front of my kid,

01:15:41a cheap Android tablet will do that job fairly successfully.

01:15:44A Yes, yes, that's true.

01:15:45So I think that's one way to go. But I do think the dedicated device experience is real. There's

01:15:51a reason people gravitated to things like the Portal in the first place. You have not mentioned

01:15:56a Nest Hub one single time.

01:15:58JW Oh, no.

01:15:58A Why? Yeah, okay. That was what I figured.

01:16:01JW They don't do that. They don't. They had some kind of calling feature at some point,

01:16:05but it keeps changing and going away and is not helpful. I mean, the Pixel tablet would be better

01:16:11than a Nest Hub at this stage, definitely. The Pixel tablet with its dock, speaker dock too,

01:16:17is a nice little device. I think it's about ready for an upgrade. And there were quite a few rumours

01:16:24that Google wasn't going to upgrade it. So again, if you've been burned by one device,

01:16:30dying and losing support, I honestly feel like an Echo Show is probably, or an iPad,

01:16:36are going to be, you know, those aren't going anywhere.

01:16:38JW Right. Yeah. With Google, it's like, can I interest you in another dead product that

01:16:43its company doesn't care about at all?

01:16:45A I mean, how you talk to the person on the other end is the ultimate decision here. And he didn't

01:16:51mention that. But as you say, but if they were using WhatsApp and Facebook Messenger, you know,

01:16:58Alexa app is going to work in the same way on your phone. It'll call. It comes through like a call

01:17:03on their end when you call them. I think I do think that's the simplest, most straightforward.

01:17:10Sorry, I have like seven of them around and I thought I muted most of them, but apparently not.

01:17:16JW So clever.

01:17:18A Oh, it's okay. I know why. Because you made me get the Echo Show 10 out. So this we didn't,

01:17:24we didn't come up. Yeah, we did not discuss this. But I should mention in case Zoom was the way you

01:17:30were calling because you could zoom through the portal, you can zoom through Echo Show devices.

01:17:36So if that was the way that they were communicating with the grandparents,

01:17:40although only the Echo Show 10 works with Zoom or the first or second gen Echo Show 8, the third

01:17:49gen Echo Show, the most new one, which you would expect to go by if that's what you were hoping

01:17:55to buy, you know, or buy the latest gen, does not support Zoom. So...

01:17:59JW What a perfect explanation of Amazon's entire product strategy.

01:18:03A No idea why.

01:18:05They have a grab bag of things that it does and somebody just reaches in and pulls out a bunch

01:18:09and that's what their devices are.

01:18:10JW And actually the Zoom experience on the Echo Shows is quite good. I tested it. I did a how to

01:18:16on our site if you want to check it out. And it was a good experience. We stopped using Zoom for

01:18:21work calls, but I actually used it for work a lot because it would just pop up and say,

01:18:25are you ready for your call? And I could just press it and it would be there. And that was

01:18:28what I used the portal for too. It was a good integration. It had a similar experience on the

01:18:33portal as it did on the show. So if that was the way you were going, then the show is definitely

01:18:39the best option. Just don't get the latest Echo Show 8 because it won't work with Zoom.

01:18:43CB Yeah, I think I'm increasingly convinced as you talk that the Echo Show Alexa calling

01:18:50is the way to go because the Echo Show microphones are going to be better,

01:18:54especially for like people moving around a room than even something like an iPad is going to be.

01:19:00The speakers are very good. The technology for calling is very good inside of those devices.

01:19:08And I think the pitch to family members of like, all you need is the Alexa app

01:19:13is probably doable. It's not great, but it's doable. And it gives you the opportunity of like,

01:19:21Christmas 2025 gift. Here is your own box for calling your grandchildren, which is like a

01:19:27spectacular victory of a device. I will put all pictures of your grandchildren and you can press

01:19:33this button and call them. Yeah, it's a win. Okay, I think that's it. So if we're doing

01:19:40calling, it means you can get any Echo Show you want. We're doing this all through Alexa.

01:19:44Which Echo Show would you recommend for our caller here?

01:19:47Um, I think 10 because of its rotating arm. I think the Echo Show 10, it is $250 though. And

01:19:58if the Echo Show 8 second gen would be a perfectly acceptable alternative and about half the price.

01:20:06So it just has it. I think the camera's not as good. The speakers aren't gonna be quite as good,

01:20:12but it will work in the same. The software is the same. So I would, yeah, I mean,

01:20:18the Echo Show 10 would be more fun, especially if your kids are moving around a lot, right?

01:20:22They can't run away from grandma as easily.

01:20:26But if you can convince your family to download the Alexa app, pick your favorite.

01:20:30Yes, yes. Well, I wouldn't do the five that's a bit too small. And then there's huge ones.

01:20:36There's like the 21 just came out.

01:20:39Now you're talking. Put that on your dining room table. See what happens.

01:20:42It's a bit large. I think these are better.

01:20:46All right. So yeah, I think the eight or 10 seems like the right place to live.

01:20:49All right, Jen. Thank you. I hope this helps.

01:20:51You're welcome.

01:20:55All right, that is it for the Verge cast today. Thank you to everybody who came on the show. And

01:20:59thank you as always for listening. There's lots more on everything we talked about in this episode

01:21:03from our S25 reviews to the rest of our phone coverage to all the stuff with TikTok and Red

01:21:08Note and Deep Seek and everything China at theverge.com. I'll put lots of links in the

01:21:12show notes. But as always, read the website. Lord help us. There is a lot going on right now.

01:21:18As always, if you have thoughts, questions or feelings,

01:21:20you can email vergecasts at theverge.com or call the hotline 866-VERGE-11. I have terrible

01:21:25news for you. The Slack room broke, but it also comes to the email and we're getting the Slack

01:21:30room fixed. So the hotlines keep coming. Don't you worry. And we love hearing from you.

01:21:34This show is produced by Will Poor, Eric Gomez and Brandon Kiefer. The Verge Cast is a Verge

01:21:38production and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Nila and I will be back on Friday to

01:21:42talk about all the politics, all the news, whatever weird stuff is happening at the FCC,

01:21:49more gadgets that are still to come and everything else. We'll see you then. Rock and roll.

Samsung’s S25 Ultra and the end of the flagship phone | The Vergecast

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