The Hollywood Reporter's Brande Victorian sat down with director Kelsey Mann and screenwriter Dave Holstein to discuss 'Inside Out 2' in a THR Q&A powered by Vision Media.
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00:00Yeah, the first film like
00:032015 yeah, I think you know it's like nine years ago, and I
00:07Naively was like let's just get let's just get joy out of the digital box like where she at
00:12And my visual effects supervisor was like Kelsey Kelsey
00:17Things have changed so much even in nine years
00:20We literally have to start over with joy, and she's gonna take a year to make I'm like whoa
00:30Everybody's emotions in check we ready for this
00:33Please join me in welcoming director Kelsey man and writer Dave Holstein
00:40But hello, thank you both so much for being here
00:43Yeah, I feel like I'd be remiss if I didn't just start with the success that inside out to has had
00:501.699 billion
00:51brought in at the box office worldwide
00:54highest grossing film of
00:572024 a highest grossing film of all time across genres the highest grossing animated film of all time
01:04And now yes as we're in award season
01:07critics choice award nominated BAFTA nomination Academy Award nomination
01:13You know for you. What has it been like seeing the response. You know from the audience the commercial set success
01:19Initially and now the critical acclaim
01:21Which is not easy to do for a sequel of a original movie that was so beloved
01:26It's incredible. I wish I could go back to when I began and could tell my own anxiety. Yeah, it's gonna be okay
01:35Cuz you know there's a little bit of pressure
01:37on this little movie that we made and
01:41the the I mean I
01:43Sometimes I feel like I'm in a dream when I hear all that coming out, and it's it's it's been
01:48enough time they're starting to seep in as reality, but
01:52Its success has been absolutely beyond seriously it's been beyond anything that I had ever hoped for and
02:01The other part you know we wanted to make a movie that was really fun and entertaining
02:05yeah, but I also wanted to make something that did a little good in this world and
02:10help people and I wanted to put that out there and
02:13That's the part that's been the most rewarding
02:15I can't tell me you can't tell you how many times people have
02:18Come up to me and just told me like how much the movie means to them
02:24And you know inside out you know the original in 2015 I mean seventh highest grossing film
02:31Of that year also Academy Award winner
02:33You know where do you even start when you sit down to think about doing a follow-up to that film and particularly so many years later?
02:41I started so Pete doctor directed the original film. He's our chief creative officer at the studio
02:48He came to me and said
02:50You know I think they didn't ever intend to do another movie even though it kind of feels like that
02:56Because there's a little setup of you know the puberty alarm, and you know the extension of the console and all that
03:03but Pete
03:05People kept coming up to him and telling him how much that that movie meant to them
03:10He's like wow this is really stuck around and there may be another story
03:14So then he asked me like hey, I think there might be potential for us another story
03:18I think you'd be a good person to go off and see if there is something and what I love about Pixar
03:23I love about Pete is that it always starts from having a really good idea, and so I just started to look at
03:31Myself and what I could possibly do and the idea of Riley becoming a teenager
03:37Came up, and I made a whole list of
03:40A
03:42New emotions that could show up and
03:45In that list I had written anxiety. Maybe it was a little bit. That's what I was feeling yeah at the time
03:50Yeah, I'm like it's funny now now. I'm like they're like. What was it like. What's the experience of this move?
03:55What's it been like making this movie, and I'm like oh my gosh. I put it up on screen
04:00It's my own battle between my my joy and my anxiety and that was
04:06Directing this movie because obviously I talked about the pressure and all that but the other side is the absolute joy
04:12I never thought I'd ever direct a movie
04:17Anywhere let alone at Pixar, and so I'm just so
04:21Grateful to have this opportunity and be able to work with fantastic people like Dave here next to me
04:27Dave I want to ask you about the writing process. I was reading an interview you did
04:32What did you say he said what did you say to quote probably true?
04:38It was like writing inside of a dishwasher while it's on
04:45You know what is it about this experience that was so different from other projects
04:50What was particularly challenging the dishwasher part? It's very challenging the
04:55It's um God. I mean, I've written in a lot of different
04:59Arenas and in television and in movies and live-action and and
05:03You really are thrown into this wonderful process where you are
05:08Writing you're you're shooting you're drawing and you're editing at the same time in different areas of the film
05:15So you're constantly trying to shore up different pylons of the movie whether that be in Act 3 or Act 1 and there's no
05:23often not a lot of order to it because
05:27The just just different story priorities to hit and when the movie has been in development for you know, four years five years
05:34It's just not the most linear process. And so it's exciting. It's really fun
05:39You're literally getting your steps in running from the story room to what we call the fishbowl
05:44Which is where the story artists are drawing, you know to the editing room and just constantly trying to just tighten and and make the
05:51the story more clear and and just you know, find the film and
05:57You know in TV, you're doing a lot of writing last minute
06:00You can write on set and all that but you're still pushing in a linear
06:03Train forward, you know, you don't always go back and work on episode 2 after you've done episode 8, you know
06:08And the great thing about Pixar is you're striving for perfection, which again very meta with this film
06:14and and you are anxious and joyful and all these things and writing about it and and and
06:21talking about it and
06:22It's until it ends. You don't think it's going to so
06:28Fascinating experience
06:31And I want to go back, you know that list of emotions, you know anxiety sounds like the first one you kind of jotted down
06:37How did you settle on you know in the embarrassment? I mean, you know being the core ones that you introduced in this film
06:44Yeah, that took a while. I I knew I wanted new emotions to show up
06:48I made a list of everything that I wanted because I I wasn't on the first film
06:52But I I was working at the studio at the time when we go to the screenings
06:56And so I got to see the movie from that perspective an audience's perspective. So I'm like, all right lean into that
07:02It's kind of close. I'm like I get to make what I want happen from that point of view. So I wrote down
07:09everything that I kind of wanted to happen or what I what I
07:11Expected from the audience's point of view and new emotions was one of them
07:15And so I made a list of all, you know
07:17Potential ones and our first screening we had nine new emotions show up
07:23I did this drawing of the console and the old emotions were there and there were all these other
07:29emotions and they're all like all and joy was overwhelmed and
07:33The console was being overrun by emotions because I'm like that that's what it feels like to be a teenager
07:39And so I did that and then it was overwhelming to the audience, too
07:43You're like you couldn't you could be like who is who and anxiety was in that nine, but she was completely lost in the crowd
07:51And so we had that was the first, you know, we do multiple screenings at the studio
07:55That's kind of what Dave's talking about every three months. We put the movie up in storyboards and we watch it
08:00We're seeing like how's the story? You know, are we entertained? Are we bored? Are we you know, and then
08:06The first note I got which was simplify so I had to cut them down and like well
08:11Which ones do I save you know, and I realized well the ones that need to stay are the ones that are important to tell
08:18Riley's story and enjoy story in that particular time in her life when she's a teenager
08:22Which is a time in which you become incredibly self-conscious
08:26So those were the emotions that stuck around the ones that drive when you're a teenager like, you know embarrassment
08:33I've my I've got two kids. There are 13 and 14 when we started this whole thing. So
08:39Embarrassment, there's a lot of it. There was a joke out
08:42I don't know if I told you there was a joke that I still think is hilarious where I wanted another
08:46Embarrassment to show up. I'm like, who's that? They're like, oh, that's secondhand embarrassment right over there
08:55Yeah loves Kirby enthusiasm secondhand embarrassment loves watching that show
09:01So but anyway, yeah, those are the ones that stuck around
09:04Well going from there, I mean, of course, you know this incredible voice cast brings those characters to life, you know, my hawk
09:12Io, eddie berry have both been nominated, you know for their voice acting. How did you match up?
09:17You know these characters with these actors and was everybody in you know, right from the start
09:22There's a really cool process we do at the studio with the casting department where we get together and talk about the character
09:28And what I'm looking for, you know
09:30And what I'm looking for, you know
09:33Sometimes it's a vocal quality, but it's always about the character and what they need to
09:38Express and feel like anxiety. I'm like she it's somebody who's like
09:44You know, she's always in fight-or-flight mode, right and she's very smart and she's like she's like one of those people
09:50That's like you can't keep up with they're thinking 10 things down down the road, you know
09:55And so I need somebody could talk really fast, you know
09:57So I talk about that kind of thing and then the casting will then come back and they have a whole they're like, okay
10:04we have
10:0515 actors, you know to present to you today and then I look at a design of the character and then they go
10:12Actor one and then you just hit play and I just hear a voice and I don't know who they are
10:17They don't tell me who they are
10:19Sometimes a little bit of a game because sometimes I'm like, I know exactly who that is
10:23She's wonderful and I love her. I thought about her, you know
10:26and so we listen to it that way and there's a big reveal at the end once I'm like
10:30I liked actor three and seven is kind of what I was feeling and then they kind of reveal like oh that's so-and-so and
10:37That's so-and-so. Yeah, and then from that, you know, we figure out if we need to do an audition or if we just you know
10:44Offer the role but it's kind of that first like that blind kind of voice casting role to it
10:50Okay, was everybody like yes, I mean once you you know went out to like hey we want you to be yeah a lot
10:56Yeah, there was there were people that
10:59auditioned
11:00Because I told them what I wanted the movie to be about and that resonated with so many people
11:06There were a lot of people that were like, I don't know if I'm right for the role
11:10But I'm so glad that you're putting this movie out into the world
11:14That's been it was really fantastic to be able to pitch to people and my Maya Hawk was wonderful
11:19she just like
11:21She's perfect for the role
11:22But she just talked about like when I when I talked about what this movie was really meant to me
11:28It really resonated with her and I remember just hanging up like she was she was crying
11:33I was crying like she was fantastic. I knew immediately and that was over zoom. That was just over zoom. Okay?
11:41That's the way to talk about Sheldon Freud. Oh, yeah, didn't make the cut
11:46I
11:48That Shadford predates me but is a is a terrific emotion on the cutting room floor
11:53That was a German emotion as we all know. Our emotions are from countries
11:59And it was a German emotion named schadenfreude who would just laugh when you got hurt
12:06Which was a pretty solid joke, I believe the first time and then probably had diminishing returns
12:14Yeah, he he he was in the first film and Pete was like try Sheldon Friday again I go I'll try it
12:20I'll try it. And so yeah, the whole joke was that you know, it's the feeling you get when you take pleasure in someone else's pain
12:26Yeah, that's the emotion. And so somebody like fear would get their head like hit and he would go
12:31Yeah, good eyes of pain amuse me
12:34He was hilarious
12:36But he'll come back
12:38Inside out three. Yeah, we keep every movie
12:42We try to get him back in but he always ends up on the cutting room floor. He's really funny
12:47I think if we want to get a little serious about it, like he just adds nothing to the story
12:52That was the problem. Like why is showing Freud here?
12:55why is the perfect person to tell Riley story at this given time in his life and
13:00He was a really good gag that was hard to get into the story and then the stall Joe once we had in the stall Joe
13:06We're like, well, she's hilarious
13:07She's kind of playing that role of the emotion that comes in has a really good joke and and is like, thank you everybody
13:14I'm out. So
13:16Nostalgia stole that role from him
13:21I'm going to talk a bit just about the look and feel you know of the film. I was
13:26Seeing some interviews with the cinematographers Adam would be I'm a Jonathan Pitko who just talked about
13:31You know the approach of how you wanted Riley's sort of real world to look versus in a world with the mind
13:37And what it took to even have, you know, all these new emotions in that space
13:41Can you kind of talk about the conversations you had, you know about look and feel?
13:45Yeah, you know a lot of us
13:48Drafting off the first film especially with the two different worlds
13:51you know the outside world is much more like gritty and real and kind of you know that the
13:56Scuffs on the chairs will be a little bit more scuffed and when you're inside. It's a little cleaner a little more playful
14:02we always said it's like inside an Apple Store, you know, or like
14:05Yeah
14:06It's a small world kind of whimsy. Yeah, you know feel to it
14:10And so we kind of carried that through
14:13Although I was more willing to like, you know
14:15mess up everything in the headquarters because you know
14:17I wanted a wrecking ball to come through because that's what while he's going through when she's a when she's a teenager, but
14:23you know the people we get to work with that the studio are fantastic and some of my favorite like
14:30cinematography that's
14:33Not only in this film but kind of in any film at Pixar
14:35I'm like, this is incredible work is all there at the end everything that Raleigh's going through
14:40With her panic attack is like everything is just like dialed up in that particular
14:46Moment and almost kind of surprises you where you're like, whoa, there's some absolutely gutting shots that are all so
14:53beautifully shot and and from a cinematographer point of view
14:57It's amazing what they're able to do with the the focal length and the the blow out of the lights and it's just absolutely stunning
15:05That's just a wonderful team. Yeah, I wanted to talk about that see more, you know
15:09a friend of mine saw the movie very early and she texted me she's like
15:12I took my daughter and then I ended up crying, you know through the film and once I
15:19When I saw it I said, oh, I know that's the scene it's the panic attack
15:23And you know, even you know the way the background kind of vibrates just yeah, it's a little shake to yeah
15:31moments and
15:32You know, I know the cinematographers talked about, you know, there's six different frames, you know from every shot and kind of going through that
15:40You know, what was the process like for you?
15:42It kind of sounds like you know with the writing of like there's so much to pick and choose from and and moving on the fly
15:48What just is that experience like for you on set?
15:51With that in and were there any kind of technological
15:55Advances from the original film to now they like allowed you to bring things to life a little bit more
16:00But the panic attack, I mean I can only say
16:04Very little because that was a lot of that was was in your court
16:08Wait, what was the last thing you ask us? There was something about technology
16:12Yeah
16:12because I didn't you guys have to rebuild the world like you couldn't use any of the
16:17Characters and props and things that you'd build as a whole. Yeah. Yeah the first film like
16:232015 yeah, I think you know, it's like nine years ago and I
16:27Naively was like, let's just get let's just get joy out of the digital box
16:31Like where's she at and my visual effects supervisor was like Kelsey Kelsey
16:37Things have changed so much even in nine years
16:40We literally have to start over with joy and she's gonna take a year to make I'm like, whoa
16:46Yeah, she's a very complicated character you can kind of see
16:51Up on the big screen, you know, she's made of particles and she's actually a light
16:55I say that again because I found that fascinating. She's made of particles
16:59Each of which emits light like talk about a cinematographer's dream
17:03Like the character is actually a source of light made up of a billion little sources of light
17:09It's incredibly complicated and she also needs to be affected by a light that's on her
17:15How do you light a light bulb, you know what I mean?
17:17It's incredibly difficult to be able to do that and a lot of the shading packets shading
17:24Technology had changed so much that they had to start over from scratch
17:28but we were able to
17:30Kind of go through and give them a little bit of a facelift and upgrade a little bit from the first film and we always
17:36Tried to look we always tried to think about what do I remember joy to be like, you know
17:41I'm trying to capture so it doesn't bump anybody in the audience that that they are different, but she's literally
17:47From scratch we had to start over
17:50How long was the process start to finish? I started January of 2020. Okay, that was at the beginning
17:56So these these movies typically take five years is pretty average
18:00So we did ours in like four didn't they think it would take shorter because it was a sequel
18:05There is that there is a little bit of like Oh sequels are easier
18:08You can go quicker and it's they're really hard
18:14Into the rules from the first movie. Yeah, you really want to tell a different story. You're limited to rules that were established for a
18:22Different story and they had no idea you would even be attempting this story
18:25So bringing in new emotions and and and there's so many complex rules just from the writing standpoint of trying to match
18:33You know the rules inside the mind the rules outside the mind
18:37Timing them so that the both stories climax at the same time. Like it's a very
18:43intricate little little web and
18:45Doesn't get easier
18:47With the sequel. So you tell us 2034 inside out three. Is that what I'm here?
18:5230 how many years?
18:55Starting now
18:58I'd like to start writing inside out seven and I just want to get it, right?
19:02Like I want to start it now and by the time it's like it'll just be ready
19:07Riley as a grandma, I just wanted I could spec that this week
19:14But do I'd be the kind of I know, you know, nothing's confirmed anything like that
19:18But you know, what are some emotions you might want to tackle, you know, if we are looking at it besides children for it
19:24Yeah, cuz he's yeah, he's definitely
19:26Yeah
19:28You know, this is gonna be a little weird when I think but
19:33shame
19:34Was an emotion that it predates me
19:37but it was something that I know that you guys worked on a lot in the first draft of this film and didn't quite click and
19:42but I've always just not having seen that as a concept have always been very emotionally moved by a
19:50concept that is
19:52You know about you know
19:54The difference between guilt and shame being that that when you do something when you do something bad
20:00Sorry when you when you feel bad about what you did that's guilt you feel bad about who you are. That's shame and
20:07That always felt just very rich in some form
20:10Maybe not the form that was tried the first time but I always like that idea. Yeah, we tried it was a pretty dark film
20:16I I still
20:19It's still in there, you know
20:22Because that's what I when I was talking about like talking to Maya Hawk about what the movie's about. It's a lot about that
20:28It's a lot about that voice that shows up in your head. It says you're not good enough. Yeah, I don't like who I am
20:36That's that's what I wanted to do the movie about and so we explored that as an actual character
20:44That anxiety was trying to stop and it was and we got really complicated. I'm gonna bore you
20:49Yeah, it's it's it got really complicated
20:51but it's still it's still a feeling that's in the film, but
20:56So people still hopefully can relate to that kind of that voice, but it's not delivered through this like horrible emotion
21:03It was we couldn't find a take on it. That was enjoyable to watch
21:07There's no positive element to that kind of shame
21:10No, and an anxiety at least you had a multifaceted approach where you there are you positive uses for anxiety?
21:18But I think my recollection was that the the experts could give us no no kind thing to say about no
21:25It's hard to show the positive side of shame
21:29Yeah, yeah, it's not really uplifting for a movie to send out into the world
21:37Thank you to those
21:40But you know in that in you know joy also kind of gets this lesson of you know
21:44All our emotions are necessary, you know and important and so I'm curious for you, you know, what has been
21:51Kind of the the best feedback you feel like you've gotten, you know on the film that it's just made you feel
21:56You know most proud of what you put out even just at the event
22:00we were just at I feel like at least two working therapists came up to us and just said how
22:07Practically useful the movie's language has been in talking to their clients and talking to children
22:16You know, I worked with the head writer of Sesame Street on a different project
22:20And he always had a great expression that they used on their show, which which was every pain needs a name
22:26And I feel like what we were able to do was give
22:30emotions faces, you know, and so
22:32emotional problems suddenly had
22:36Faces and characters you could talk in that language about your anxiety about your anger about your fear even with my seven-year-old
22:42You know, you'll be in the backseat of the car and I'll be like, you know Julian in its anger at the console
22:47He'll be like dad. It's just a movie but like still I think
22:51It's my best feedback
22:53Which is that you do have this way to talk to them and they have new ways to tell you you're wrong
22:57But it's a nice it's a nice back and forth
23:01I
23:07Can't tell you how many people it's just been absolutely incredible how many people have come up and said like
23:14How much it means to them, you know, and the part that I'm so like happy
23:18I got such an opportunity to direct this movie, but I also got a really I took the opportunity to
23:25Help a lot of people that I think I thought could use some help in the way
23:30I I really could have used a movie like this when I was a teenager
23:33as I thought that I was the only one thinking and feeling what I was thinking and feeling and you do not want to
23:41Vocalize it. Yeah, and I'm like, well, here's an opportunity
23:45Where I can tell a movie about a teenage girl and what she's going through that I can relate to and put it up on
23:51The screen so the people out there in this theater and also theaters all over the world
23:57Can go and go I thought I was the only one but seeing all this film
24:04I'm not alone and what what I'm going through and it's okay to be messy
24:10I mean, it's the whole point of the movie. I from the very beginning
24:14We do these multiple screenings
24:16I think we did did like nine screenings in total on this movie
24:21And the one thing that stayed consistent so much changed all around it
24:25But the last shot of the movie is Riley looking at herself in the mirror and loving what she sees flaws and all looking back
24:33That's what I wanted to put out into the world and so that people can feel a little bit less
24:38Alone and give them a so, you know a little more self-compassion. Yeah, I want to thank you for that
24:44And thank you both for being here and congratulations. Thank you all for being here as well. Enjoy your evening
24:51Thanks for coming out everybody. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks everyone. Thank you