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00:00I have to be alright by myself to stand a chance of being, I guess, alright by anybody else.
00:04What's in a lot of the lyrics on the album and even in the album title is evidence that
00:09I don't find it easy all the time to feel calm and settled in with who I am.
00:22James, thanks very much for doing the music book session. It was fantastic and I'm very
00:25excited for readers to see it. So can we start by talking a bit about your fourth record,
00:29Changes All The Time, which came out in October 2024. So tell me a bit about the background
00:33behind that record and when you started writing it. At this point, I guess, so four records in,
00:38some songs seem to come from like years before. You know, you're collecting,
00:42I'm writing all the time and I think a couple of these songs are written like 2019, 2020.
00:49And I guess, well, that was a strange time. I made my third record through the pandemic and
00:53just a difficult sort of hazy time. But they didn't sort of make, or maybe they were written
00:59just after the third record was made or whatever. But there was a few kind of collected from that
01:03time and then the rest of them were written a lot closer to making Changes All The Time
01:08in 2023, sort of building up to when we recorded in November, December.
01:12So certain ideas you've sort of been sitting with for a bit or working out in your head and stuff.
01:16Yeah, yeah, definitely. And as most of them were written, like I say, it was in the months
01:21leading up to recording and I was getting, I guess, a clearer picture. Take the word clearer
01:26very lightly. And then three, I think three of the songs on this album were written, this is the
01:32first time I've ever done this. They were written while we were making the record, while we were
01:34recording, which is always quite a sort of frightening thing because essentially my brain
01:41and maybe sort of, you know, where I come from and how I grew up, it says,
01:45this record making is very expensive and we've only got so much time. What are we doing wasting
01:51our time writing a song that might not even get used?
01:53Well, one of them you wrote on the very last day of being in the studio or something.
01:57Yes, yeah. One of the ones that I played for you guys, Some People.
02:01We sat and it was this beautiful sort of sparse song and sort of lyric and notion and we wrote
02:06that and then I recorded it in the stairwell of Rack Studios. We wanted a sort of very kind of
02:11raw and echoey space and we didn't want to sort of fake the echo like you can and that's very
02:15normal to sort of use reverb or whatever. Anyway, yeah, we did that. Up All Night was written while
02:19we were making the album and Talk was written while we're making the album. But I say like,
02:27take like clearly with a kind of pinch of salt because really it's a little bit for me,
02:33like kind of herding what feel like the best songs all into this moment.
02:38Trying to work out how they all fit together.
02:40Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it felt like as I sort of sat with these songs, you know, I was thinking,
02:45what do I call this album? What am I saying here? And I recognised that in most, if not all of them,
02:51I'm grappling with the concept of change, which is something that is impossible to avoid.
02:58But particularly that period, I think. So you got married.
03:01Yeah. Had a baby. Yeah. And a lot of sort of big real life stuff. Also, something as simple as
03:09I've been doing this professionally at this kind of level for 10 years now. I signed a record deal
03:15in 2013. How old were you then? I was 22. Right. So, of course, I'm ancient now.
03:21I'm the same age as you, so please be careful. All right, I'll be careful. I'll retract that
03:24and I'll say that we're young and vibrant people. Yes. Plenty of years to come.
03:29Yeah, for many years to come. But yeah, change is always coming. And I find it
03:35pretty daunting at the best of times.
03:37There's a lot of questioning on there, like about your own sense of purpose, I think.
03:41Definitely.
03:42Where you're at, I think, both in life and in your career. Maybe more in your career than
03:45in life because I think we're all personal stuff.
03:48Just throughout, really, to be honest. It's hard when writing songs not to go into the deepest,
03:54darkest places. It makes these moments tricky because I don't want to talk about any of that
03:57stuff. No. But I love making music as a therapy and as a place to investigate what I'm struggling
04:05with or just what I'm dealing with. Do you ever like tussle while you're writing with the idea
04:09that people are going to actually hear this?
04:11A hundred percent. That's never easy. Yeah, that's never easy. But I guess one of my favorite things
04:17about songs, not my own, but songs in general, is how open they are to interpretation. Someone
04:23can feel something from a song that they're going through in their life that the song isn't about.
04:29Was there anything you were listening to when you were making the record that you connected with,
04:32not necessarily direct influence, but resonated with you as you were writing your own music?
04:37Good question. I found myself going towards some more lyric-less music, some classical stuff.
04:48Any one in particular?
04:49There's a Samuel Barber tune that's very famous called Adagio for Strings, which I've loved so
04:55much. I've really, really loved it. What moves you about it?
04:58Very literally the sound and the note choices. There's also a soundtrack too. There's a James
05:03Baldwin book called If Beale Street Could Talk. I made it into a movie.
05:06I read the book a while ago and then watched the movie in 20-whatever it came out, 18.
05:12Since then, I've gone back now and again to that whole soundtrack.
05:16It really moves me. A few soundtracks actually, the Interstellar soundtrack and the story of that
05:20movie. I was able to access my own emotions somehow easier and quicker when listening to
05:27that stuff. I found it inspiring because I didn't busy my brain with the words and how I would
05:31interpret them or what I felt like they meant. I would just feel. When you asked that question
05:35about Adagio for Strings, it's very literally the note choices and the crescendo and all of that.
05:40I had the band in with me for the first time. I'd taken my touring band into the studio.
05:45You had some cool collaborations on this record?
05:47Yeah.
05:48Noah?
05:48Noah and the Lumineers are people that I toured with and known for a little while now.
05:55They really emphasized and extended the potency and power of the song up all night,
06:00I think, because we wrote the song in the studio without those guys.
06:04And it just felt like a really good time.
06:06It sounds like a good time, yeah. It's like a really nice energy on it.
06:09Thanks. As a record, we thought, how can we heighten that experience? Well, let's see if we
06:13can bring, not just anybody, bring friends in, bring people who we hope will get it. So we sent
06:18them the song and they reacted like, oh, this will be lots of fun. I wrote one of the songs on there
06:23with the great Brandon Flowers, who's-
06:25How do you guys know each other? Or did you know each other?
06:27Mutual friend who told me a while ago, actually, in passing, because I think this friend of ours
06:33from my record label was asking if I would write with other artists. And I said, yeah, absolutely.
06:37But it came from him saying, because he'd worked a lot with the Killers, he said,
06:41Brandon always wonders why he doesn't spend more time or get more opportunities to write
06:45with newer artists than him. And I was like, I put my hand up.
06:48A volunteer's trivia.
06:49Please sign me up. So we made it happen. And that was-
06:51Did you meet up in person?
06:53Yeah, in Utah, where him and Ronnie from the Killers, they were there together.
07:00They were in a big house in Park City, in a ski town. A lot of snow.
07:07Right.
07:08Gorgeous views in this ski lodge thing.
07:10Do you ski?
07:11I do not. Or at least I haven't yet. They weren't there to ski as far as I'm aware,
07:14but they had this great double height hallway. They had a bunch of drums set up in there.
07:18It was very Led Zeppelin vibes. And down in the basement living room, they'd set up a whole
07:23recording desk and studio and speakers and everything. And we were just there living
07:26in that space for a few days with them.
07:28And you just get to know each other like chat?
07:30Yeah. And since we've very much stayed in touch. And he's a hero. I'm not ashamed to say,
07:36as privileged as I feel to know him in any capacity. When I was 13 or so and starting
07:42to play live in bands and play rock music in some capacity somewhere, guitar, drummer-
07:46It's like Pink Killers era.
07:47It was always affected by the Killers. They had such an impact on what me and anybody around me
07:54was doing as far as trying to be in a band. So it was an amazing experience to suddenly be
07:58in such kind of close proximity and collaborating. But we were an easy distraction. And I can really
08:04feel Brandon and something Killers. These are big words, but he's quite prolific and quite profound.
08:11Watching him writing in the room, we were working together, but we had moments where
08:15he'd kind of get out his phone where he'd scribble all kinds of different lines,
08:19lyric ideas. And we'd record a bunch of chords going around on a loop and he'd stand on a mic
08:24and just spit these things out. And they all sounded just very- Oh, I'd love to write that
08:29lyric into a whole song and that one and that one. It was amazing. He wasn't afraid. You're trying to
08:33get to a point with any art where you're less and less afraid to just express.
08:38And did that kind of embolden you to be a bit more-
08:40Definitely. You want to be able to express and believe in what you're doing and just not be
08:45afraid that it's anything other than worthy because there are no rules, are there?
08:49Yeah. As you talk about Dogfight, which is the last song on the record,
08:52which is one of my favorites, as I said. And you co-wrote that with Holly Humpston.
08:56Holly is a wonderful writer.
08:58Yeah. She's brilliant. And was Gabe producing?
09:02Yeah. Yeah.
09:03Do you have another co-writer on that?
09:04Phil Plested. Phil is a legend. I love Phil a lot. He's had lots of success with lots of
09:09different artists, particularly, I think, Lewis Capaldi. And I've written a few different things
09:12that I've released over the years with Phil. And he was really, I will say respect to Phil,
09:16he was in the room with two artists. And in his own right, Phil has the capacity to,
09:20he's toured and played live. But he held a great position, not even as like a mediator.
09:26I'm trying to say that there were moments when I felt like he was
09:30present, but letting me and Holly lead the writing.
09:33Run with it.
09:33Yeah. Run with it. Exactly.
09:34Yeah. And it feels like, I don't know, just to me, it feels particularly pertinent
09:38at the moment, I think, with everything, like Liam Payne's death. And just, I think,
09:43there's been quite a lot of music industry hand-wringing recently, and hopefully a bit of
09:48looking inward or whatever. But that is very much seems to pertain to your experience of coming up,
09:54being like the Wunderkind and like the new rising star kind of thing. And you were very much,
10:00the spotlight was on you for a very long time in a very intense way.
10:03Sure. You mentioned Liam. I knew the tiniest version of the kind of experience he had,
10:09I think. But it's a lot. Whoever gets however much of that, it's such a lot.
10:15Dogfight was about looking inward. It is about looking inward. It's about recognising a need to,
10:22I suppose, work on myself and accept that I'm a work in progress. And that can be,
10:31there is something a little triumphant that I'm trying to express in that song.
10:37But it is also expressing struggle.
10:40Yeah. It's all the doubt, I think, and grappling with a sense of self-worth that I think is very
10:45easily placed in the wrong hands. I think narrative shifts, which I think you, again,
10:52experienced, again, from being, I think, what's the lyric? It's like, is it blazing fire?
10:56Oh, yeah. Set me on fire, I was your blaze of glory. I was your favourite story, now I'm burning
11:01out. That's, if nothing else, it's all kinds of things. There's so many different emotions going
11:07to every lyric in a song. But in that moment, I'm growing up a bit and holding this new perspective
11:13on how puppy-like I certainly have been in the past and still can be in many ways.
11:20Do you think, because I was reading an interview that you did with us, actually, in 2015,
11:24and to me, you're already quite cynical. You're talking about the Brit Awards and
11:28obviously saying it's very nice to be nominated, but also the idea of that
11:32ceremony, I think, you felt like everyone's being herded into.
11:34And you said it wasn't exactly like a zoo, but not unlike one.
11:38Cynical. I was definitely holding up some guards and afraid, and I still have the capacity to do
11:44that in a big way because it's still daunting.
11:47But do you think that's protected you in a way?
11:49That sort of cynicism and fear, or let's say those guards, yes, to a degree. I tell you what,
12:00separate to and connected to that is the kind of need to keep your feet on the ground.
12:06Which I imagine is very hard when people are telling you you're amazing, you're huge.
12:11Yeah, because eventually that will quieten down.
12:14Or they'll find someone else.
12:16It might come back. That might come back again. And again, it might keep going away and coming
12:21back. It can happen.
12:22But you can't spend your whole career waiting for that.
12:24Or even trying to live in it. I think lots of people have experienced what I've experienced
12:30at younger ages, but I was still quite impressionable. Between 22 and 25, my life
12:35changed a lot. And suddenly a lot of people were telling me I was very good, simply put.
12:41And in the moment, it was a pretty great ride. And I've certainly experienced versions of it
12:47since then. But I'm older and in some way a bit wiser. And I think coming down from that
12:56and trying to understand and be at peace with, even for a moment, who I am in my own skin.
13:03Dogfight is about that, grappling with that. Because it isn't easy, at least in my
13:10experience. I'm very keen to be all right by everybody. That's sustainable.
13:20Yeah, as you find that, I think because you've got this thing where you seem to exist now slightly
13:25outside of all of the noise, if that makes sense, in the industry. And I think you've done very well
13:31to position yourself outside of that, because I think for a lot of artists, they remain in
13:37that eye of the storm kind of thing.
13:38Sure. I guess if that's the case, however I feel about that, and however accurate that is,
13:45I'm trying to say I have to be all right by myself to stand a chance at being, I guess,
13:50all right by anybody else. Does that make sense? And I think what's in a lot of the lyrics on the
13:56album and even in the album title is evidence that I don't find it easy all the time to
14:02feel calm and settled in with who I am. I'm not completely sure
14:10the sort of all the origins of why that is. And I know, interestingly, that it inspires me to make
14:16music and create and make art and write and perform.
14:19So it's not like you're rejecting it outright, it's more like addressing and acknowledging that
14:22it's there.
14:23Yeah, and I feel like I'm really, lately I'm having another chapter of really growing up with it
14:27again, maturing with it again. And that's a bit like a shedding of an old skin and a sort of
14:32stepping into a new, and that's a lot, at least deep down. Whether it looks like a lot on the
14:38surface or whether anybody cares or not, I guess I make art to grapple with and express that.
14:46And if anybody can relate, then there's the beautiful bit, because then we come together
14:51and share music and get to have live experiences.
14:54Which you've got happening, like 2025, you've got this big arena tour.
14:58Yeah, yeah. Well, it's the first UK arena I've ever done. I've done a very small
15:02handful of arenas in my career. I'm very excited. Going to Wembley in February. Yeah, thanks.
15:07Check out this rumored underground swimming pool.
15:09Yeah, right. That's what they're saying. It's a bit frightening down there, but I will. I will
15:14check it out with lots of people around me, lots of companies.
15:16Yeah, take some torches.
15:18And some torches and some shields. Yeah, that'll be fun. And a handful of different
15:24venues that I've been to before and ones that I haven't been to before. And we're going around
15:26Europe as well. We've got lots more touring to announce in 2025. I'm very excited about it.
15:32And more than ever, I have struggled not to want to put every single song from this new album in
15:37the setlist. I've been working on that for a moment.
15:40It's got four albums worth now. It's a lot.
15:42This is tough because I want these shows to be for the fans. As a fan of live music,
15:48I want to go to a show and get the stuff I hope for. And it can be a bit of an ask,
15:54to give so much new music. So I'm trying to strike a balance there.
15:58But the album would have been sitting with people for a good amount of time now. So hopefully,
16:02this is true. I'm sure fans will know all of the lyrics.
16:05I'm going to test them a little bit. Yeah. But there's going to be a whole bunch of earlier
16:08stuff in there as well. And all the, I guess, for want of a better way of putting it, all the
16:13obvious ones will be there. Because me and my fans have an unbelievable time every time that we share
16:19those oldest and most favorite songs. So yeah, I'm very excited for it. But yeah, I never found
16:24it harder trying to choose songs from a new album than on this one.
16:27It's a good struggle, I think, that one.
16:29Yeah, it's a good problem to have. That's for sure. And I can't wait. I really can't wait to
16:35get the new ones up there. I've been saying this, actually,
16:37I was working on the setlist the other day. And I think I've got there now.
16:41But I realized that I've been saying, people say, what can we expect? And I say,
16:46well, you know, I'm going to try. I think I even maybe made this up on time just to have
16:49something more interesting to say, which is dangerous. I said, I'm going to try and
16:53reinterpret some old ones. And I've actually worked out some ways in the last week or so to do that.
16:58Well, like a kind of a more upbeat version, because Palo Natini did that.
17:01Right.
17:02100 Club. It was just amazing. He did Pencil for Lead. But it was like
17:05this really dark, almost pure version of it.
17:09I love that idea. I love that approach. So in my own way, yeah, that's what I'm talking about.
17:14Awesome.
17:15So we'll see how that goes. And we haven't even done rehearsals yet,
17:18so they've got to make it through rehearsals first.
17:20Can't wait for the punk version of Let It Go.
17:22Exactly.
17:23Cool. Amazing. Well, thanks very much for the chat.
17:26It's been good.