Business Insider Editor-in-Chief Jamie Heller and Axel Springer CEO Mathias Döpfner discuss the intersections of trade, democracy, and the rise of artificial intelligence.
Their conversation highlights challenges and opportunities for democratic nations in forming strategic trade alliances, the risks of economic dependence on authoritarian regimes, and the vulnerability of intellectual property in the AI era.
Döpfner is the author of “Dealings With Dictators: A CEO's Guide to Defending Democracy.
Their conversation highlights challenges and opportunities for democratic nations in forming strategic trade alliances, the risks of economic dependence on authoritarian regimes, and the vulnerability of intellectual property in the AI era.
Döpfner is the author of “Dealings With Dictators: A CEO's Guide to Defending Democracy.
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00:00There are so-called allies, but they don't treat us well.
00:04You write about this idea of a free trade alliance and democratic nations being part
00:09of that, including Canada and Mexico, but they were his first targets.
00:12We have to find out whether America first means America alone.
00:17Hello, I'm Jamie Heller.
00:22I'm editor-in-chief of Business Insider, and I'm here with Matthias Dapfner, who is CEO
00:28of Axel Springer, which is the owner of Business Insider, and therefore you are one of my bosses.
00:33Pleasure to be here.
00:34In addition to being a CEO, you're also an author of a book now republished as Dealing
00:40with Dictators, a CEO's Guide to Defending Democracy.
00:44The heart of the book is that democracy is crucially important and trade alliances between
00:50democratic nations can sustain democracies and keep autocracies in check.
00:55I needed a whole book to express that, but you have summarized it perfectly well.
00:59How are you feeling about things right now with President Trump in power a few weeks?
01:05Not exactly going out of his way to be friendly with his allies, even.
01:10I mean, I think the only thing that is predictable about Trump is his unpredictability.
01:16Of course, it looks at the moment very isolationist.
01:18He is a very transactional politician.
01:22I would not be surprised if, after threatening the Europeans with higher tariffs, we form
01:27an alliance that strengthens Europe and America and also achieves better results in dealing with China.
01:33You're hopeful that in the long run, your idea can still come to pass with him?
01:39Both is possible.
01:40I don't want to be naive.
01:41I mean, a lot of things look as if they would go into the exact opposite direction of what
01:45I think is reasonable.
01:47But we have seen in many cases that things turned around.
01:51China will be sooner or later the biggest economy in the world, and a non-democratic
01:56country as the dominating economy in the world will have a political impact.
02:03And so I think it is of overriding importance to change that.
02:08Trump took that tough stance to China, and now we have to find out whether America first
02:13means America alone, or whether the administration realizes that to achieve more symmetry in
02:20dealing with China and with other non-democracies, that you need partners.
02:24And here, the European Union is the first priority.
02:28If you sit at the negotiation table representing 800 million people, you're going to be more successful.
02:33One of the quotes from your book is,
02:35opportunistic economic and trade policies without share values have failed.
02:41He seems quite opportunistic in terms of what is best for America.
02:45You think this could still work overall?
02:47I think the overriding purpose is to strengthen the economies of rules-based societies, open
02:55societies, democracies, societies that respect the rule of law, that respect human rights.
03:01And if the biggest democracy in the world, the United States of America, is giving up
03:07all its principles and says, a fast deal, whatever it costs ethically, or whatever it
03:12costs with regard to our institutions, and I don't care about the rule of law, then I
03:16think we are in trouble.
03:18Tell us what's going on in Germany.
03:20Everything we're hearing is that the economy is in a terrible slump.
03:25Is politics a way out, or what do you see as the way forward for what was once a major
03:31economic power?
03:32There is recession, so the economy is in very bad shape.
03:35There is a lack of innovation, there is a big amount of unnecessary regulation.
03:40The German energy policy is particularly unreasonable.
03:44On top of that, we have made this mistake with regard to migration.
03:49Of course, we felt for good reasons victims of genocide have to be welcomed by Germany.
04:00The problem was that there was no criteria who is allowed.
04:04There were even initiatives that were embracing all forms of migration, regardless who and
04:12why and from where, and whether it's legal or not legal.
04:16It's now, in Germany, a moment where either we completely regroup and we really start
04:25afresh with a different mindset and with a determined reform policy, or the perspectives
04:32of Germany are very bad and it's not going to remain very long the third biggest economy
04:38in the world.
04:39Some people are saying right now that with a potential trade war between Europe and the
04:44U.S., which is exactly what you think shouldn't happen, China would end up getting the last
04:49laugh.
04:50I mean, Europe and America are successfully split because, I don't know, of failed diplomacy,
04:57failed trade negotiations.
04:59What's the alternative for Europe?
05:01Europe then has to lean towards China.
05:03That is already dependency.
05:05If China decouples from the German car industry, which they have partly done, the German car
05:10industry is suffering, the German labor market is suffering, it's catastrophic.
05:14If that can be continued, Europe becomes a colony of an authoritarian country like China
05:19where the Communist Party rules.
05:21Good luck for Europe.
05:22We will be then truly a theme park for Asian tourists, no value creation in Europe, really,
05:29and full dependency on China.
05:30That would be a different world order.
05:32Catastrophic.
05:33That may not happen.
05:34And if, again, America first means America alone, then I think it is not going to work.
05:39What did you think a couple of weeks ago when the China-developed AI chatbot DeepSeek hit
05:46the scene?
05:47What went through your mind?
05:49I was not totally surprised about it.
05:50Who is leading in artificial intelligence will lead economically and will lead in the
05:58long run politically.
06:00That is the big power question.
06:02China is great in copying and taking what they need and then developing further, faster,
06:09and with a different system of regulation.
06:12In China, the only criteria is what serves the well-being of the central Chinese state
06:19of the Communist Party.
06:21Long-term.
06:22Long-term, by the way.
06:23Very important.
06:24Long-term.
06:25They don't think in four-year terms next election.
06:26They don't care.
06:27Quarterly, anything like that.
06:28It doesn't exist.
06:29So they have decades, hundreds of years as a time horizon.
06:33So very long-term strategy and basically ruthlessly doing what serves this big project, which
06:40is, by the way, explicitly to be the dominant economy in the world.
06:44And given the fact that there are 1.4 billion people, they have data about their daily behavior,
06:49about personal views, health data, makes it very probable that China sooner or later is
06:55going to lead here.
06:56I think we should not overrate the DeepSeek phenomenon.
06:59And it was really quite interesting how the stock market reacted with one trillion basically
07:05losses in one day.
07:07Quite unique.
07:08It shows also the sensitivity and it shows that a little startup can basically shake
07:12up the entire capital markets world because it is a symbol for exactly that phenomenon.
07:18Oh, China could take the lead.
07:20When Trump and he had all the Silicon Valley folks at his inauguration and it was, let's
07:26go, we're taking AI, we're going for it, did you feel like great, good for democracy or
07:31whoa, bad for humanity?
07:33Potentially both.
07:34I really have these kind of mixed feelings here because in general, the approach to embrace
07:39the opportunities of AI is the right one.
07:42Naive regulation is very bad.
07:45Ideological regulation is harmful, but we need to define certain rules.
07:51If there are no rules, if everything goes, it's going to end catastrophically.
07:54And I'll just give you one example.
07:56It is about intellectual property.
07:58If in the world of AI, we do not find a solution for the protection of intellectual property
08:05through a new form of copyright, we will see horrible consequences.
08:11Intellectual goods are as valuable and should be as well protected as physical goods.
08:17Nobody would say you can just go into a car shop and steal a car.
08:21That's fine.
08:22That is catastrophic for journalism, of course, and that's why we have a very strong self-interest
08:27here that that is going to be solved.
08:29But it's also going to be catastrophic for music, for film, for the entire creative industry.
08:34The risks to intellectual property, I mean, that is your whole business as a media company.
08:39True.
08:40And you did a deal with OpenAI on behalf of Axel Springer Properties.
08:43I mean, do you feel like, how much does this keep you up at night?
08:48Do you feel like we're on the right track?
08:49You feel there's more to do?
08:50No, we are on the right track.
08:52And just to explain that deal in the shortest possible form, it was important to establish
08:56the principle that if somebody wants to use our content, our data, the company has to
09:02pay for that.
09:03There need to be a revenue stream.
09:05That was the decisive principle that can be either established by law or it can be established
09:09by deals.
09:11And since law takes too long, we thought we got to do it through a deal.
09:15That's just the first step.
09:17But I think in general, things are moving into the right direction.
09:20I'm really optimistic that AI can be a golden moment of journalism.
09:23We have to rethink journalism on many levels.
09:26My bet is very simple.
09:28If there is more and more unclarity, what is a fact?
09:31What is a rumor?
09:32What is an intentional manipulation or a deep fake?
09:36It helps to focus on investigative research and reporting and being there where nobody
09:42else is and seeing things that nobody else has seen.
09:44If we achieve to be the destination of trust, and there's a kind of guarantee that this
09:50brand gives that they have tried everything to inform as balanced, as correctly as possible,
09:58then I think we will be incredibly attractive.
10:01Thank you for your time.
10:02Great to speak with you.
10:03Thank you very much.