As the break looms this weekend, it's better time than any to take a look at Gatland's exit at Wales and Scotland's own coach
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00:00Hello and welcome to National World's Kick and Chase Rugby Union podcast, where we dissect
00:11all the latest news results from around the six nations. My name is Martin Simpson, joined
00:16once again by James Copley and Phil Bramley. And guys, obviously there's only one place
00:21to start this week. Warren Gatland is stepping down as Wales head coach with immediate effect
00:28following the disappointing result in Rome. James, come to you first, obviously, just
00:35what are your initial feelings to this decision? I think it's the right decision, but it's
00:39obviously tinged with a little bit of regret and sadness. You know, Warren Gatland for
00:44Wales during his first stint delivered three grand slams, another six nations title, two
00:50World Cup semifinals as well, completely changed the landscape of Welsh rugby, came back for
00:55a second spell that just hasn't worked despite getting Wales to that quarterfinal where
00:58they were defeated somewhat disappointingly by Argentina. Obviously, as discussed millions
01:04of times on this podcast, the systematic issues within Welsh rugby and the Welsh Rugby Union
01:10go far deeper than Warren Gatland. However, I do think that Wales team should be doing
01:18better. Obviously losing 14 is unacceptable. I do think there are the raw materials there
01:23to at least compete with Italy. I don't see Italy's squad as being loads better than Wales
01:29and let's face it, Wales were humbled and embarrassed by Italy really. The scoreline
01:35actually flattened Wales with the two late scores, one of which being a penalty try.
01:41So where Wales go from here now, I'm not sure will it immediately get better. I don't think
01:47so. I think there are a lot of forces and problems at play that need to be sorted out.
01:55And that's produced this sort of climate where a lot of people are reluctant to blame Warren
01:59Gatland and I can completely understand why because he's clearly working within a structure
02:03and an organisation which could be described as a shambles. But I think for a coach of
02:09his quality, he should be doing better with those plays. There are still some good raw
02:13materials in that Wales squad, I'm adamant. For me, some of his decisions have been a
02:17little baffling, leaving Anscombe at home. I think last season, Six Nations, where he
02:23blooded so many Wales players at once, it just hasn't worked. And you can argue that
02:27it's actually ruined some of them in the short term. You need to come in to international
02:33rugby to test rugby in and around experience. So it's been a long goodbye. I think it's
02:40been a very sad goodbye. But also one which sort of is of his own making as well. He cast
02:48your minds back to last season. He tended his resignation after the loss against Italy,
02:54which was an absolute power play. It was a power play to get more influence. It was a
02:58power play to get public opinion on his side. It didn't quite work. And unfortunately, the
03:03old war horse has fallen on his sword after having played all of the tricks in the book,
03:10really. But it's been sad to have him watch his press conferences, listen to him speak.
03:14He's clearly not right. I think his head's clearly spinning in terms of selection. But
03:20saying that, Warren Gatland's forgotten more about rugby than I'll ever know. So I think
03:24you have to respect him. You have to credit the work he did, credit him for coming back.
03:30I was interested to see that his daughter had had a veiled swipe at the ex-players in
03:34the media for getting stuck into Gatland. But what else were they supposed to do? They'd
03:38lost 14 on the spin. And I don't think people have got stuck into Gatland two-footed. I
03:44think they've critiqued him fairly. And there's also been a lot of talk about the state of
03:48the game in Wales. So I don't feel like the knives have been out. I just feel like this
03:53was the natural conclusion. I mean, where could Wales go? I mean, they could have kept
03:57him for the next games. Would that have made a difference? No. It's a mess. Who comes next?
04:04Obviously, it's looking like the Cardiff Blues head coach. Will he be able to affect any
04:09change? I don't know. Will he be able to get on the phone to a couple of players and get
04:12them in? Possibly. Will that make a difference? Wales have some tricky games coming up. So
04:17probably not.
04:18Did the timing strike you at all as weird, Phil, in terms of not seeing out the Six Nations?
04:24Or do you think it was probably better that he went now rather than announce that he's
04:29going at the end of the season and then make the next fortnight of press conferences and
04:34media about him rather than the match?
04:36Yeah, I suppose. But he's perhaps got one eye on not wanting to keep that losing record
04:41going on under his tenure. So at least they can draw a line on it and move on. It's, yeah,
04:47as James said, I can't really see any massive changes immediately. To be honest with you,
04:51I blame Eddie Jones because he was all going about, judge me on the World Cup, judge me
04:55on the World Cup. And it seems almost like so many head coaches now seem to almost view
05:00the Six Nations as simply a test ground where we'll get combinations right for the World
05:04Cup, which is great if you're Ireland and you can slot a couple of players here and
05:07that doesn't make any difference. But when you haven't got the raw materials across the
05:12board and the strength and depth that you have that Wales are struggling with, it's
05:15really odd. And, you know, I remember when he first took over and it all blew up about
05:21the potential player strike and all the rest of it. And then him sort of saying, oh, I
05:24didn't realise Wales rugby was quite as bad as it was till I got here. And that seemed
05:27ludicrous to me that he couldn't understand what was going on in the backgrounds. We've
05:31touched on before about the nature of the struggle of the club game in Wales more generally,
05:37whether or not they need to do something about the overseas players and bring those back.
05:41I do think though, yeah. And again, I understand why people are kind of had a pop at some of
05:45the likes of Jamie Roberts, who kind of had a go at him on TV, et cetera. But just looking
05:51at the selection, if you haven't got a great player pool, why are you not picking, you
05:55know, Anscombe, who's absolutely flying for Gloucester and playing with Thomas Williams,
05:59who's a club team mate. Yeah, there's combinations. It's absolutely no brainer. Max Llewellyn's
06:03been ripping it up. Why are you not playing him there? And then, you know, you're playing
06:07people out of positions, either Tomkins or Thomas. It just didn't make sense to me what
06:12he was doing. I think he would have a lot more sympathy. People said, I haven't got
06:16great players, it's struggling, but these are the best players in the best positions.
06:19Let's see how they go. But he doesn't really seem to have done that. And yeah, he blooded
06:23so many players before. And we touched on this last time that it's really unfair on
06:28a young player to be thrown in, you know, into the battle with a load of other new players
06:32who don't know combinations, don't know each other. It's much easier in the way that Ireland
06:36have done it to kind of introduce one or two players. If Prendergast is starting as 10
06:40in a team of completely unknowns, it's going to look completely different than if he's
06:44playing 10 with that experience pack around him and Jameson Gibson Park on his inside.
06:48So it's, it's about also being fair to those young players as well, who I think, you know,
06:52he might want to end up damaging some careers because he's thrown them into the mixer and
06:56then just spat them out the other side.
06:58Some of it's completely bizarre, like playing Ben Thomas at 10 against Italy. He's more,
07:02he's more of a center. He's more of a center by his own admission. And I haven't actually
07:06checked this out, but I was listening to a couple of podcasts and I'm sure somebody
07:09said something like he's played or started two or three games there for Cardiff at 10.
07:14And then suddenly he's expected to be parachuted into six nations rugby. And the point you
07:19raise about Eddie Jones, I'm always, I'm always a fan of blaming Eddie Jones for anything
07:23as, as you know, Phil, but you know, the, the point you make about him sort of changing
07:29the narrative around the six nations and it being a developmental tournament for the world
07:33cup, from a Wales perspective, it's absolutely ludicrous that that would ever even be considered
07:38because the six nations, those games in front of the home crowd in Cardiff at the Principality
07:43stadium, that's the cash cow. That's, that's, that's how the, you know, the, the WRU get,
07:48get their money. They can't change the systemic and system. They can't change the systemic
07:53problems with Welsh rugby without that cash. So, so to treat the tournament sort of with
07:58disrespect really and blood all of those young players last season, you know, the chickens
08:02have come home to roost and it's, it's nonsensical really.
08:06In terms of the next head coach, I find the, uh, the sort of initial list of names we've
08:12got quite fascinating. Um, obviously I'm seeing Michael Cheka's name quite high up and then
08:18I would compare him to other names on the list, like, uh, Verne Cotter and Joe Schmitz,
08:24um, coaches with lots of, with international head coaching experience. I think I saw Stuart
08:29Lancaster on there as well. So I'm wondering if that's the route that go down. Obviously
08:36I think the first name that came to my head was probably Simon Easterby, former Scarlett's
08:41head coach. So experience in the Welsh system. And then if he wins the six nations, but Ireland
08:46while, um, while Farrell's away on his lion's holiday, I would imagine that he would be
08:53a contender. Franco Smith, obviously he's been doing great things with Glasgow. He's
08:58been there. Steve Tandy is part of the Scotland, Scotland set up. I just don't know what, what,
09:04what direction do you think you go in? Do you go, obviously Franco Smith has experienced
09:09international level as well with Italy, but do you go with a experienced international
09:15coach like say Michael Cheka or Joe Schmidt or Verne Cotter, or do you go with someone
09:22who hasn't had the chance to be head coach at test level yet? Like Simon Easterby, like
09:28Steve Tandy, or do you maybe go for someone who maybe gets the best of both worlds? Like,
09:33like Franco Smith, um, whatever they do, I feel like you can't, you can't go into this
09:39cycle that Italy had for so long, where it was a coach was kind of taking a step forward
09:46and then regressing. And then they would kind of get rid of them before we really had a
09:51chance to see how they would cope with that. I don't know, what are your thoughts, James?
09:56I haven't got a clue, to be honest. And the worst thing is I don't, I don't think the
09:59authorities have a clue. It's going to be Matt Sherratt, isn't it? He's the new caretaker
10:02head coach for the rest of the Six Nations. You know, if he gets a tune out of them for
10:07the next couple of games and they improve, will they just plug for him? Will that be
10:10the right decision? I don't know. I don't have a crystal ball. My gut would point towards
10:16somebody like Cheka, who's got that experience, who can, you know, use his wealth of rugby
10:23experience to sort of turn it around. But again, whilst I think that Warren Gatlin should
10:28absolutely be making different calls and coaching the team to a better standard, it's going
10:33to be really hard for anybody that comes in. We're not shying away from the fact that Wales
10:37don't have a cattle, they don't have the play pool at the moment. The interest in the game
10:41in Wales is waning, the regional game struggling, all of these factors. So until the Welsh
10:46Rugby Union sort of get their act together and start maybe cleaning house internally
10:51as well and getting a proper structure and a proper plan in place, it's going to be extremely
10:55hard for anybody to come in. I mean, if your stock's quite high as a coach, you know, Easterby,
11:03would you come to Wales? Does it make sense? I mean, the ceiling is really high if you
11:08get it right and the credit you would get if you managed to turn the oil tank around
11:11would be astronomical. But with all of the problems you might be looking at and thinking,
11:16well, Warren Gatlin's gone there and he's a world-class coach and it's not worked for
11:19him. He's obviously not felt supported. I suspect Warren Gatlin is going to have a fair
11:23few things to say at some point. So watch out for that because I think he's going to
11:27have a few axes to grind. Why would you want to take it? I mean, it's still an attractive
11:32job, I guess, because it's Wales. But in the circumstances at the moment, probably the
11:36lowest ebb it's ever been. Who can they attract? I think it's a really difficult question.
11:40Yeah. I mean, we're just going to take a really short break right now, but we'll be back
11:46straight after. We're going to have a little bit more discussion on the stuff surrounding
11:51the Wales head coach and then we'll obviously move on to look ahead to the next round of the Six Nations.
12:05Welcome back. So I just want to really quickly follow up on what James was saying before
12:08the break there, Phil. In terms of maybe being a bit of a poison chalice, the Welsh job is
12:15huge, but if you are Steve Tandy or a Simon Easterby and you've got a comfortable job
12:24where also you're probably seen as the favourite to succeed the current head coach of the national
12:33team you're with, obviously Andy Farrell's not going anywhere anytime soon. Gregor Townsend
12:39will get onto that. But then again, that's probably why I think Michael Chekha is favourite
12:46with the bookmakers at the moment, because we know he's leaving Leicester Tigers at the end
12:52of the current season. And then obviously there are other names like Joe Schmidt. Again,
12:58these guys are going to be available, but then is Joe Schmidt going to move himself to the
13:05opposite side of the world again for this job? I can't see it personally. So I feel like that's
13:12probably why we're seeing Chekha at the top of the list. What do you think? I mean, if I was a WRU,
13:18I think the basic line is who's cheapest? Because let's face it, we haven't got a huge amount of
13:22coffers to go to. I do think quite often happens with these things. It does end up, you know,
13:27who's available in the window? Who's currently coming to the end of that? Well, let's take him
13:31because he's winning a contract. I'm not always sure it's the best way. It was interesting that
13:35when it was mentioned to Ronan O'Gara that he sort of turned his nose up about it and saying,
13:40well, you know, I want to coach a good team, which I thought was a bit of a low blow,
13:44but you can also understand it. I think it's perfect for someone new to come in because
13:49let's face it, it'd be really hard to get much worse unless the scorelines and the points
13:54difference, you know, it ended up being like, you know, a hundred nil as it has been in some
13:58World Cup games in the past with some teams. So, yeah, I think it's a great opportunity for
14:04a new young coach. Easterby, I think it will be interesting, particularly if he does end up
14:09winning a Grand Slam potentially. Although I do wonder how many people will say, well,
14:13how much of this is his team and how much is Andy Farrell just looking over his shoulder and, you
14:17know, let's not have that name, let's have that name there. But I think he's done well. There are
14:22a lot of young coaches coming through. I think it'd be great if they could find somebody from
14:27within the Welsh system, because I do think it makes a difference if you've got that kind of
14:30passion for your own team, you know, the bleeding Wales. I think that does make a difference to it.
14:38But from my point of view, I think the key thing is, and this is why I'm not sure Czech is such a
14:43good fit, because it's more a case of, if you're a club manager, you can go out, provided you've got
14:49a Czech book, you can buy whoever you like. I need a tight end prop, I'm going to get Tom Statoil,
14:53I need a fly off, I'm going to get whomever. In the international game, you've got who you've got.
14:57Yes, you can be a bit cute about it and you can argue about the way that Ireland and Scotland,
15:01to some extent, have gone about pathways and attracting players to some extent. But if you've
15:07got the team that Wales have got, I think it probably makes more sense to try and pick a
15:11coach that can coach those. And it probably isn't going to be a big, gnarly, nasty forward pack,
15:16which is what you associate with Czech a team of old. So maybe someone who's got a little bit,
15:20maybe a Stuart Lancaster might be more attuned with that kind of way that Wales want to play,
15:25although obviously Lancaster's record hasn't been much better than Gatland's of late.
15:30I think as well, you mentioned that which man can come in and coach the team and get a tune
15:36out of them. But I think that's only half the job with Wales. I think whoever comes in,
15:39they're going to have to be a politician. They're going to have to manage upwards,
15:41downwards, sideways. They're going to have to be a visionary. They're going to have to
15:44have clear thoughts about where the game in Wales is going to go. Does that person even exist? Can
15:48it be done by one person? Probably not. Warren Gatland didn't manage to do it the second time
15:53around. And you would think he would have known the game in Wales better than anybody else. But
15:59I honestly, I think it's such a tough job. I'm probably a little bit down because
16:03it's 14 games on the spin that we've lost. They've just got rid of their head coach. And I'm
16:08probably sort of catastrophizing things a little bit, but it just feels at the moment like,
16:13why would anybody bother? The flip side to that is, I would sort of compare it to my football
16:19team, Sunderland, on a lesser scale. When things are bad, it's awful. And the basement is so bad,
16:27but the ceiling's really high when it does go well because of the passion. But it's just,
16:32have you got a chance of reaching that ceiling? And I think the jury is very much still out on
16:37that. And I think probably the biggest thing for the new head coach coming in,
16:42the next two Six Nations need to be, it can't just be about development. They need to get results and
16:47they need to be very careful with the way they arrange their autumn fixtures because of the
16:52world rankings and the implications that's going to have on the next World Cup draw,
16:57where obviously they're expanding the tournament, which is why we're seeing Scotland,
17:02Scotland, England, and Australia in this kind of freeway battle to be in sixth place for January,
17:10next January. So we're talking 10 months now in order to be a pot one team. Scotland, of course,
17:18know what happens when you're not a pot one, when you're not in pot, sorry, when you're not in pot
17:23two for the draw even. So to be a pot one team, and Wales right now are at risk of not even being
17:31a pot two team. They're currently 12th, falling below Georgia, and they're not that far ahead
17:38of Japan and Samoa. So they do need to be very conscious of what their autumn fixtures look like
17:46and having to get a positive result out of that before the World Cup draw next year.
17:53And they really could be doing with something from one of their remaining Six Nations games,
17:59where that comes from. I don't know.
18:04That mentality that you mentioned, Martin, as well, you know, the double world champions
18:07the South Africans, I know they've got amazing players and an amazing squad.
18:10But Razi Erasmus, he picks players for those games. It's never with an eye on development,
18:14isn't it? It's with an eye on winning in the now and even being ruthless about that. I mean,
18:21Le Boc-Pollard situation in the World Cup, it's playing your best players and then worrying about
18:28the preceding events later. I just, I can't understand the mentality. I really can't.
18:33Moving on from a coach who has left his role to one that we're starting to see a few questions
18:39about in Gregor Townsend of Ireland come to Murrayfield. I think I mentioned in the show
18:45before that the sort of optimism was a bit more downplayed this time around. I think it was more
18:51just get the heads down and get the job done. We're not going to talk about winning the tournament.
18:56We'll talk about it once we win this game against Ireland. And obviously it didn't go that way.
19:01And much like that, there was a sort of 20-minute period either side of halftime.
19:06Scotland got themselves to within a score and you thought after that penalty from Kinghorn,
19:11you're thinking they could feasibly win this match. And probably that five-minute period was
19:17the only point where you're seeing that in the whole game. Apart from that, it never looked
19:20like anything other than an Ireland win. As pretty much every result in the past 11 of these games,
19:30it never really looked like Scotland were going to... I generalize in there,
19:33there's bound to be one or two games where you're thinking, but last year wasn't a good example
19:38because I know that ended in a one-score game, but that was a match where Ireland were on top
19:41of Scotland the whole 80 minutes. And if Scotland had have won that, it would have been daylight
19:47robbery. Well, it would have been a great defensive test display, but certainly Ireland
19:55never looked like losing that game. And Ireland never really, other than a very brief period,
20:00well, they never looked like losing and Scotland never looked like they could win even for a
20:04short period. And now Scotland have to go to Twickenham with English obviously buoyed by
20:12that win over France. And I wonder at the end of this Six Nations, if they lose to England and
20:17their only results are a win away to Italy and at home to Wales, when you actually start using
20:23the R words, are Scotland now regressing under Gregor Townsend rather than moving forward?
20:31I think that's really harsh. I understand why people are kind of coming out and asking those
20:36questions, but it is purely because of that Ireland record. If you look at his record against
20:41all the other teams, he has significantly moved Scotland forward. His record against England has
20:47been fantastic. Now, even against some of the other Southern Hemisphere teams, he's kind of
20:52moved them on and they've progressed. It's just, I think Ireland are just that hooded team,
20:56and let's face it, for the Scotsman, the Calcutta Cup, it's a good season. Who cares about the rest
20:59of it? You win in Twickenham, happy days. They're going to be building statues to him up again in
21:05Princes Street. So I'm kind of a little bit... And the other question is, again, to Gatland.
21:12Gatland question, who else do you think could come in and do a better job with the squad that he's
21:17got? I think he's been... I'll take Warren Gatland. Really? I'll take Warren Gatland, thank you.
21:25Maybe a swap. Yeah, I'll take that swap.
21:32For me, Martin, I just... I mean, how long have we been doing this podcast? I think it's like
21:37three Six Nations and a World Cup. And I've come to the conclusion now, and I've come to it recently
21:43that Scotland are a good side in the Six Nations. I thought Scotland were unlucky in that game in
21:47terms of some injuries at key times, which obviously never helps. They're a good side.
21:53They've made progress, as Phil mentioned. They could beat a France, they'll beat an England,
21:57they should dispatch Wales, and they should usually beat Italy. But when it comes to just
22:02competing at the top level against those top sides, I don't think they're there. I don't think
22:07the play pool, although very good and will yield some very, very good lines players,
22:12I don't think it's quite at that level of Ireland and France in terms of winning Six Nations.
22:18I was hoping Scotland would get there one day. I've sort of reached the conclusion that
22:22I don't think it's going to happen. I'd love to be proved wrong on that because I would love to see
22:26it. But I just think after three or four years of asking the question, just that's what this
22:31group of players is. And I think that's okay because it's a good Scotland crop.
22:36But I just don't think we're going to make that step up now. I can't say it.
22:40I think this is probably where we disagree in terms of, I just feel like if you look at like
22:46say talking about improvements, the improvements began under Verne Cotter and obviously Gregor
22:51Townsend gets huge praise for taking that ball and really moving Scotland right up the pitch,
22:59really moving them forward. But Verne Cotter had one world class player in his squad. He had
23:04Stuart Hogg and he sort of had Finn Russell just kind of emerging into the talent he would become.
23:09Gregor Townsend has players who you'd be talking about competing. He has more than one player
23:16who would be in the discussion of a world 15, I feel. But there's enough there for me
23:24to suggest, I think, that Scotland should not be losing 11 games in a row to Ireland,
23:31regardless of how good they are. They shouldn't be losing 11 games in a row to anyone when they're
23:38playing them year after year after year, ever really laying much of a glove on them.
23:44And I think that that has to be a concern. We need to take another short break now.
23:49When we come back, we'll be looking ahead to the next round of the Six Nations matches.
24:05Welcome back. So round three, we've got our off week and then we're straight back. We've
24:11obviously got the Calcutta Cup match between Scotland and England. Let's save that one for
24:16last. I think probably the most juicy tie. We've got Italy and France. I don't know how much we
24:23need to actually say about that one, to be honest. So let's just go straight into Wales against
24:29Ireland. I suppose without trying to sound horrible, I don't know how much we need to say
24:33about this one either. No, I completely agree. Moving swiftly on. Yeah. But OK, I'll tell you
24:44what, let's talk about Italy against France. You probably feel like the Italians,
24:51I don't know, France will be favourites for this one, but probably the most confident I've felt
24:56that Italy can get a result against France in quite some time. I think we'll be smart in France
25:02as well, though, won't we? Yeah, that'll be it. It's the worst answer I've had. Yeah, there's going to be
25:08a massive reaction. You can imagine Sean Edwards will be out there beasting them left, right and
25:12centre. He'll be putting superglue on people's hands saying, this is how you don't drop the ball.
25:17They're going to absolutely turn up because they're embarrassed, I think, for the week.
25:23And they will demand. I think what's changed for Italy is that they stay in the game. They
25:29manage a game much better. As they did last game, they take the points when they're on offer.
25:35They're a much more sophisticated team and a much more well-rounded team. I think, again,
25:41they have the chance to score some tries themselves. But if France can put to bed
25:47the horror show, the dropsies that they had last week and come out with a performance, I can
25:51quite easily see it being very one-sided and France putting 20, 30 points on Italy if they turn it on.
25:58I think that's the thing, isn't it, about France. They left a lot of tries out there, didn't they?
26:02It was almost like a little bit of a freak. I think England deserve credit for winning that game,
26:07actually, and the game management. But it did feel like France had lost that rather than
26:13England had really won it, in my opinion. I think I tweeted during the match. It was like,
26:20Antoine Dupont's human. He dropped the ball. I couldn't believe it. It was so weird. So,
26:26I think they'll be smart and I think they'll put a couple of points on Italy, for sure.
26:30I think the other problem, just looking at the way they approached it, I genuinely think there's a
26:34little bit of arrogance in there. I think they just thought... I'm not sure if Imanel Arnaud
26:40was regretting his comments about, I hate the arrogant English, because I thought there was a...
26:44I mean, just little things like Malvaca trying to line out one-handed. Yeah, fair enough. And then
26:48some cheeky little out-the-back passes, which look great if they go to hand, but when they don't,
26:52you look a little bit foolish. I do think there was a certain element about that France maybe
26:57believed a little bit of their own press. And let's face it, if two or three of those last
27:01passes had stuck, they would have been out of sight. I do think the second half was different.
27:05I think England, I think to be fair, Finn Smith actually understood what he needed to do to play
27:10a 10. He did admit himself that he was a little bit like a rabbit in the headlights in the first
27:14half. And then when England started to put a bit of pattern on it, they did look much more secure
27:18and much more of a cohesive unit. But yeah, I mean, France could have been out of sight by
27:23halftime, but they weren't. So yeah, it'd be interesting to see how they play, if they make
27:28any changes. To be fair, you look at the players that didn't perform and they are all absolute
27:34world beaters. It's not often that you get the likes of that team making so many mistakes.
27:40Pernod is world-class, drops balls, Dupont drops balls. It's unheard of. I don't think they're
27:46going to make those mistakes again. And I don't think that Italy have got enough of the skills
27:52and the ball carriers and those kind of harriers that England have to kind of put extra pressure
27:57on to make a difference. Yeah, I do wonder, I kind of have a lot of faith in Gonzalo Quesada
28:02after the performance at Murrayfield, just in the way he sort of, the way his side were able to react
28:09to the game live, which I just don't think we've seen from Italy before. They were able to apply
28:15pressure at the right times when they needed to. And I wonder if knowing that France are going to
28:20be pissed off from the England result, that they might just kind of, okay, let's see what you've
28:27got. And then if France do, there's another couple of handling errors in there. I think Italy are
28:31probably the team I would want most to kind of just kind of click into that right, here we go,
28:36here's where we can capitalize mentality. But you're right, at the end of the day, it's a
28:4080 minute game. And with the quality France have, you do kind of struggle to see beyond a France
28:47win. But I expect Italy to cause them some problems, although equally you're right, if France
28:53do just click and those errors don't come in, I could see this being quite a comfortable win for
28:59them. Similarly, I think, just to touch on the Wales-Ireland game quickly, are we genuinely
29:06worried here for an embarrassment, James? Or do you think there's going to be, the players are
29:14going to know playing at home with pride on the line, that no one's expecting them to win,
29:24but they can't afford to be losing by 30, 40 points at home? I mean, they can't afford to,
29:30but it could still happen. I think Ireland are superb. I suspect that Wales will put up a decent
29:36fight for 10, 20 minutes, as they did against France, and they'll probably succumb. I don't
29:41think Ireland will get out of second or third gear. I think that was the scary thing about
29:45Ireland against Scotland, actually, that I do think Ireland have another couple of levels to go.
29:50I was talking to my Irish friend, Michael, the other day, and I put the question to him. And
29:54it's interesting, if Ireland win a third championship in a row with two grand slams
29:59either side, does that make them the best team ever in the tournament? I think statistically,
30:04in terms of winning three in a row would, whether you agree that they were or are,
30:09given some of the teams that have played the Six Nations, thinking of the England slam winners
30:14before the World Cup and various other teams, as well as up for debate. But I can't see anything
30:19other than an Ireland where I would be stunned if Wales even were in contention coming into the
30:27second half, maybe even the second half of the first half. I'd be stunned if they're even close,
30:33I really would. And a quick word on Prendergast, actually, because we spoke, didn't we,
30:38about him, how him coming in. And I thought he was absolutely sublime. I mean, I know he's playing in
30:43front of a really good pack with a really good man alongside him. But I looked at him and thought,
30:48like, wow, he's almost born to be a Test match player. He was excellent, really, really good.
30:55Because I know we make comparisons to where Wales are now and where Scotland were when
30:59they were at their lowest. But even then, I don't really have many memories of Scotland being
31:07properly humiliated at Murrayfield. There were a lot of bad results on the road at Twickenham
31:13in Cardiff. I do remember a pretty hefty defeat at home to the All Blacks, sort of circa 2010,
31:232011 kind of time. But that was the 2010, 2011 All Blacks, one of the greatest Test sides of
31:29all time, which I think we could probably put this Ireland side in that category.
31:35But I don't recall Scotland ever properly being humiliated at home in a Six Nations match on the
31:42scoreboards. And I just wonder, are we talking about maybe one of the lowest points in Welsh
31:48rugby history if this ends up being 40, 50 points that the Irish put on the boards?
31:53Absolutely. Yeah, it really could. You'd hope it would be a watershed moment, but
31:59I don't know. I'm not convinced we've spoken about this already. It's actually interesting,
32:03who wins the misery stakes? Is it Wales or is it Scotland? Because obviously Scotland were bad for
32:08such a long time, but did they ever plump to the depths that Wales have? Probably not. But they've
32:14had a good team that have sort of never challenged, whereas Wales have actually managed to get to
32:20World Cup semifinals and win Grand Slams. It's like, which do you want? Do you want the purgatory
32:25of being in between not quite good enough and not quite bad enough? Or do you want some success,
32:30but then the basement is just so horrifically low that it literally endangers the game in Wales?
32:38It's a tough question, quite philosophical. We're actually running out of time before we've even
32:44spoken about the Calcutta Cup, but let's get into it. Phil, is this probably the most confident
32:49England have felt going into a match against Scotland over the past four or five years?
32:54I don't know. It's hard to say because, again, as we've touched on, it's really hard to work out
33:00where teams are. Yes, they had a great performance, but France were off. Is this the renaissance or is
33:05it just a blip? It reminds me a little bit of last year when England beat Ireland and everyone
33:10was so up and, I'm not saying they've turned the corner now, and then the results then went down
33:14and down and down and down and down. So it's hard to say. It'd be interesting because I think
33:19England will start as favourites, which they probably might not have done. I was there at the
33:24Calcutta Cup game two years ago, and I was relatively confident before that, and then
33:27Doohan just ran down everybody and scored tries for fun, which you can just as easily see happening.
33:33What I do think is, whether it's by luck or judgment, I think Borthwick's starting to find
33:40a bit of a template for how this team can play, and I think that is Finn Smith at ten, not Marcus.
33:45Marcus is a brilliant off-the-cuff player. He makes things happen. He has been England's best
33:49player at times, but he's been England's best player by just saying, I've got to beat somebody,
33:53I'm going to do something, and I don't think you can do that enough at international level.
33:57You need someone who plays with a bit of pattern and a bit of shape, and I think England look so
34:01much better in that second half against France when they start to play a little bit of pattern,
34:04start to put some shape onto it. They look really good. Whether he sticks at Marcus at
34:09full-back, I don't know, and it'd be really interesting because rumours are that Furbank
34:12might actually be back before the end of the tournament, and I personally would put Furbank
34:17backing because I think he's a better 15 than Marcus, and perhaps have Marcus coming off the
34:20bench. I thought the back row had a bit more balance to it, and the real difference, I think,
34:25in the France game is that the bench actually came in and did what it was supposed to do,
34:29but the difference was the changes that it brought. I thought Ben Curry was absolutely
34:33immense. Jamie George was really good, came in and secured the line-out, so the changes that
34:37he made actually made us better, whereas in the previous games, the bench has come on and
34:41significantly weakened the team. I think there was a template there. I think England should feel
34:46confident. They're at home. They're on the up. This team should feel full of confidence now,
34:52and if he sticks to that game plan, I can see it being a good game and actually taking it to
34:56Scotland. It felt like, with the Finn Smith-Marcus Smith stuff, it felt like you were seeing an
35:03in-game transition, didn't it, really, with the kicking? Obviously, Marcus missing his kicks,
35:07and then Finn Smith having to step up. I thought that was extraordinary, actually,
35:11in the way that developed because I listened to an interview with Finn Smith before the game,
35:16and he said, oh, yes, Marcus is going to kick because it's one less thing for me to think
35:19about, and it was deeply ironic the way that game ended up going in the end.
35:24But that is all we've got time for on this week's show. Unfortunately, there's so much more we
35:28could have gone into. Obviously, no games this weekend, so you won't see us next week, but we
35:32will be back the week after, hopefully, to discuss that round of Six Nations results and
35:38to look ahead to the next round of matches. Thanks very much for watching.