The Roadmap To Full UAP Disclosure With Lester Nare | Unveiled Ep. 5

Name: The Roadmap To Full UAP Disclosure With Lester Nare | Unveiled Ep. 5
Uploaded: 2025-02-15T18:58:50+00:00
Duration: 1 h 17 min 10 s
Channel: WatchMojo
Description: Welcome to WatchMojo's Unveiled Podcast and today we're joined by UAP transparency advocate Lester Nare.

00:00:00The gatekeepers of UFO secrecy are inherently members of the deep state people are

00:00:08Summoning these craft, you know with these side capabilities if the UFO was a grift all of the people these media organizations

00:00:16need money and

00:00:18This sound I know this is like it's it's like it's so crazy that I'm like like

00:00:23Uncomfortable even sort of like saying it out loud

00:00:25Hello everybody, welcome back to watch mojo and the unveiled podcast

00:00:29I'm your host Rob and today's guest is Lester Narae. He is an advocate for UAP transparency

00:00:36He is also the creator of UAP caucus and the director of operations for the UAP disclosure fund and Lester

00:00:43I'm really excited to talk to you today. Thanks for joining us. Likewise pleasure to be here

00:00:47I'm interested in how you got interested in UAPs in the first place. I know you have a background in tech and real estate

00:00:54How did the UAP topic pique your interest

00:00:58Yeah, so it's I mean, I think a lot like many folks

00:01:02It was a little bit of a roundabout path

00:01:04But there are little elements throughout my life that kind of led me here

00:01:07The sort of I think three the three key factors were when I was growing up, you know

00:01:12I'm a child of Zimbabwean immigrants. So academics was really important

00:01:16I played soccer my whole life and so the number one memory

00:01:20I have growing up of things that didn't involve studying or playing soccer with my dad was we would fly around model rockets and

00:01:27model planes and so that gave me a little bit of exposure to the concept of aviation or aerospace at a young age and then I

00:01:35personally had a very very

00:01:37mundane

00:01:38What I believed to be UFO sighting in 2020. Sorry in 2012 when I was 21 22 and

00:01:44At the time I didn't really know what to do with it. It was weird

00:01:48But you know could have maybe been conventional but that had sparked sort of

00:01:52My own personal reference point because at that point I'd obviously seen a bunch of the lore around the UFO subject

00:02:00But it was just that for me lore

00:02:02and in 2016 when the WikiLeaks dumps came out that was really what took me over the edge because as a part of that there

00:02:09were a couple of emails between

00:02:12some folks within government etc talking about this concept of

00:02:16Disclosure as it relates to the subject of UFOs or UAP and

00:02:20having been a

00:02:22Sort of policy wonk of sort of politico

00:02:25That was like an arena that I felt like was was grounding for me

00:02:30I was like, oh, I understand how this ecosystem works and how like political incentives work

00:02:35so I was very curious by the sort of

00:02:39positioning of this idea of UFO disclosure and

00:02:42Once

00:02:442017 rolls around and the New York Times article comes out much like many folks

00:02:48that was kind of the straw that breaks the camel's back in terms of taking it from private behind-the-scenes conversations into sort of

00:02:56Speaking about it in a public context. Yeah, 2017 was kind of a turning point for myself also in terms of like really

00:03:04Taking a serious look at this and following it closely as things develop because it really kind of accelerated from there

00:03:10Can you describe that first encounter that you that you mentioned in 2012?

00:03:16Yeah, so I was I was living in North Carolina at the time

00:03:19And just in a suburb of Raleigh. I was out walking in my neighborhood

00:03:25It was maybe just just after dusk

00:03:28And it was sort of a classic

00:03:32Amber orb that you hear a lot of interestingly enough in with the recent New Jersey drone incursions quote-unquote drone incursions

00:03:39This amber orb

00:03:41Morphologies have actually been referenced on more than one occasion and that's actually generally across the US just not in New Jersey

00:03:47But it was it was you know, perfectly circular

00:03:52Moving in a sort of non-linear very

00:03:57weird pattern and the thing was it wasn't like a singular or be kind of

00:04:04I mean formed into multiple and then a singular one and it's really honestly hard to sort of verbally describe

00:04:11I could probably design like a little computer program to like

00:04:16Display like to show the simulation of what it was like

00:04:18But I think the thing that was so bizarre about was the movement to me

00:04:22I mean we lived on a flight path to RDU and you know having my history of knowing aviation from I knew what?

00:04:29conventional flight

00:04:32Looked like and it's not

00:04:35stationary and making a brough

00:04:37You know

00:04:38Changes and you know vector changes and it just was very very very bizarre

00:04:45You know to this day. I don't know what it was, but I always couch it as it wasn't close enough

00:04:50It was relatively, you know, at least 10,000 feet, you know distance

00:04:55Like or like it's probably flying around 10,000 feet or so. So like it was so far. It wasn't a close encounter

00:05:00It wasn't definitive. So it was interesting, but I've always ever couched it as being

00:05:06Interesting, but nothing really beyond that just because I don't have enough data

00:05:10right on the note of the New Jersey drones

00:05:13Do you see those as kind of like how do you interpret the the reaction from the White House?

00:05:19in terms of like the addressing those because it was kind of

00:05:23Unsatisfying the way that the Trump administration kind of said. Oh, yes. We know what all these are. They're

00:05:28FAA approved or whatever. I don't think anybody really buys that. What's your interpretation of that statement?

00:05:34It's it's interesting basically both the previous Biden administration and the current Trump administration effectively said the same thing with a different word salad

00:05:43Which is it's not our enemies

00:05:47But we can't be specific beyond that which

00:05:52again is

00:05:53It's just a very I mean

00:05:55This is part of the reason for a lot of folks who are

00:05:57Advocating this space that we touch on this is there is the anomalous aspect, but there's also the conventional

00:06:03Conversation around this right if you know, if you have kids you have a family last thing you want is some unknown aerial vehicle flying

00:06:10over your house

00:06:12you know

00:06:13Without cause and that's effectively what we were seeing with the Jersey drone explanation

00:06:17I do think unfortunately the initial response from the Trump admin was effectively trying to claim victory without

00:06:25Doing the work and you know, that's no one is really buying it

00:06:28obviously, it just doesn't comport with the facts, which is that the FAA

00:06:33literally created a

00:06:35No fly zone in New Jersey specifically for drones

00:06:39So you can't both have that be true and then also say that they were all FAA

00:06:45Approved so it's it's literally false

00:06:49based on what the FAA's actions were at the time and

00:06:53I mean just as another corollary to this

00:06:56This has been something that's been happening over the continental United States for several years at this point

00:07:02I mean the big one that was most recently talked about was over Langley Air Force Base at the end of last year

00:07:08But this is not new it is not exclusive to New Jersey

00:07:11It's also not exclusive to the United States as we saw obviously incursions over

00:07:15US military bases both in the UK and Germany, so there's clearly

00:07:22More to the story on the quote-unquote drone incursions

00:07:26Then you know what's been stated and one of the challenges with navigating this issue

00:07:31amongst members of Congress is sort of the the sort of

00:07:36intersection of

00:07:38conventional

00:07:39Unmanned aerial systems or UAS like drones with you know

00:07:43this term of art that we've come up with, you know UAP unidentified anomalous phenomenon, which is

00:07:50Meant to explicitly not include

00:07:53Things like drones if you were to look at the definition that was provided in the proposed

00:07:59UAP disclosure acts of 2023 and 2024 which explicitly said UAP do not include

00:08:06Conventional aircrafts like drones, right?

00:08:08And and it's a bit interesting how the term drones was the pride on

00:08:13Predominant term used to describe everything that was seen

00:08:17While this activity was happening over, New Jersey, whether it was and there were orbs

00:08:22There were all kinds of different things and there were conventional looking drones

00:08:25But it was all kind of lumped together and termed as drones, which is an interesting thing

00:08:30I think this is why semantics is it is really important

00:08:33which is why you know a lot of folks on the advocacy side have been really pushing to get a

00:08:38Statutory definition for UAP updated to be more specific because to your point

00:08:43We saw a variety of morphologies happening

00:08:46We saw a lot of conventional normal aircraft being misidentified as conventional drones

00:08:52We saw a lot of these fixed wing

00:08:55SUV sized, you know

00:08:58Conventional drones and then the sort of the third bucket was these orbs or other types of light phenomena

00:09:05which are

00:09:06Kind of like a whole like we're very weird and in a wholly separate bucket

00:09:10But to your point they all just got framed as drones even though some of them were planes and helicopters and some of them were

00:09:17luminous orbs

00:09:19You know flying at low altitude not not necessarily, you know at great distances

00:09:24So I do think that as we have this discussion and this is kind of the challenge again because and the reaction it was like

00:09:31Oh, we're gonna do something about this drone stuff. Oh and also let's just loop UAP into that same category and there are

00:09:39Uniquely different challenges as it relates to drones

00:09:43Or any other unmanned aerial systems and there's like important work to be done there

00:09:48For example, like dealing with the issue of what happened. We there's no authority to shoot them down over the US

00:09:55And so like that's a challenge. It's difficult to do over heavily populated areas

00:09:59But like there's a lot to do just on the conventional issue that has a different set of problems

00:10:04Then the UAP issue which has like a

00:10:08constitutional

00:10:09Crisis type of element that has a waste fraud and abuse element

00:10:14It has sort of conventional white collar and sort of you know, not white collar

00:10:20Criminal element it has a our place in the universe element. So there's like a whole slew of different questions. And so I think

00:10:28Interdigitating the two will be a challenge because they both have a large scope of work to address

00:10:32I think that since Trump took office

00:10:35there's been a lot of buzz that his administration would be the most likely one that we've had so far to

00:10:42fully disclose or disclose a considerable amount of the you know

00:10:47UAP phenomenon that we've been seeing increasingly unfold over the past few years. What are your thoughts on that?

00:10:53I guess this drone

00:10:56Explanation doesn't inspire much confidence in that happening. What's your take on what we might see from from Trump's administration on this?

00:11:03You know, I'll just preface this by saying this is a landmine a land like a field of landmines around people's existing

00:11:11political

00:11:13Persuasions and so I'll just

00:11:15my view is just on paper when you think about the history of the types the demeanor or the

00:11:23presentation of

00:11:24Like different recent historical presidents. None of them have chosen to really

00:11:29Be

00:11:31anti-establishment to the degree that

00:11:34President Trump has

00:11:35Signaled and taken action to be quote-unquote anti-establishment

00:11:40You know this the UFO UAP issue is one that maps very nicely on to the conventional

00:11:48Republican or GOP

00:11:50Narrative about this idea of the quote-unquote deep state, right?

00:11:54So the gatekeepers of UFO secrecy are inherently members of the deep state within that sort of political

00:12:02narrative structure, so

00:12:05Arguably the mandate that sort of Trump has put forward is we're gonna go after said deep state actors

00:12:12which would

00:12:15Signal that he is more better positioned to be someone to do something or take action on this

00:12:22Than previous administrations because he is really, you know

00:12:27And the anti-establishment president or the maverick president in a way that we have not seen in the last several cycles

00:12:34Now there's a whole list of caveats that then get associated with that

00:12:38Which one of which I talk about is, you know, the Republican Party's existing

00:12:42You know power centers have been looking for control of the Senate

00:12:47Control of the house and the presidency with a maverick president who was wish willing to push the norms

00:12:54beyond their current bounds for

00:12:56Conventional political things related to the LGBT Q issue or other culture war stuff the border, you know

00:13:03inflation the kovat

00:13:05Those are all very very much

00:13:08priorities for

00:13:10Trump's constituents. So the question becomes where does UAP

00:13:14Fall in the pecking order of importance and then that's just one variable

00:13:19the other variable is there's a belief that this is a

00:13:23move to

00:13:25sort of this what's the word that Steve Bannon uses a the

00:13:31Deconstruction of the administrative state in order to effectively replace it with the private industry

00:13:36Which are a bunch of the people surrounding the current administration as donors. And so it's a purely

00:13:42All of the

00:13:44messaging around going after the deep state is

00:13:47Some view as purely self-serving to the effect of being able to move these

00:13:52These contracts capital and services to a different set of sort of private industry or oligarchs, etc

00:14:00And so like all of those variables are at play here

00:14:03But I think it is it is fundamentally true that no previous administration has been on the record in a variety of different roles

00:14:11About having any position on the concept of UFO disclosure more than the current administration

00:14:18That's just factually true whether that means they'll do anything. That's ultimately in an altruistic

00:14:25public good sense about that is

00:14:28obviously yet to be seen but it is I think the view there's an opportunity for Republicans to

00:14:36Basically get the biggest win that would reinforce their whole core narrative about the deep state by

00:14:41Sort of bringing out to the public

00:14:43Arguably the biggest secret you could possibly bring out as it relates to this idea that the deep state is hiding stuff from you. So

00:14:52There seems to be the opportunity the political purely political calculus opportunity

00:14:59Which has nothing to do with whether it's the right thing to do or that the people of the world deserve to know

00:15:04that exists

00:15:07Even if you don't believe that they're gonna do so for the right reasons

00:15:10Right and to start he did make one of his first orders of business

00:15:15Declassifying the JFK MLK and RFK files

00:15:19so we have still yet to see what is included in that but that does seem like something encouraging in terms of his

00:15:27backing up his words about going after the deep state and whatnot how relevant those will actually be remains to be seen but

00:15:34You know, that's at least one indication that things might be moving in the direction of disclosure eventually

00:15:40What is so interesting about that note is literally so the deadline for they provided a 15-day deadline

00:15:46from that an initial executive order that came out now just over two weeks ago and

00:15:52Today as sort of a piggyback off of that move

00:15:59Chairman of the House Oversight Committee James Comer

00:16:03Alongside representative Anna Paulina Luna of Florida announced that they were going to be creating a new task force

00:16:10Under the House Oversight Committee. The task force name is the task force on

00:16:16declassification of federal secrets and the mandate for that task force is to follow up on and ensure the actual release of

00:16:25Information as it relates to the JFK assassination Martin Luther King

00:16:30Robert Kennedy

00:16:31kovat 9-11 and

00:16:34UAP or UFOs as an explicit core mandate for that task force

00:16:40and so with the and they made in statements today that there is

00:16:45some coordination

00:16:47Happening alongside with the White House and I think part of that is because having sort of muscle on the ground to push

00:16:54You know when these agencies, you know

00:16:57Ostensibly are gonna push back on releasing anything. It just creates another lever to

00:17:03force the issue

00:17:05you know in the context of you know, trying to get you know folks to bring that information forward or

00:17:11Leaning on the power of the subpoena to compel testimony

00:17:16Although I just got off call with

00:17:19Someone who does legal work in DC right now generally and they mentioned this really important note

00:17:25Which is we're unlikely to see

00:17:28You know the house

00:17:32Issue a subpoena the house, which is in the legislative branch issue a subpoena to the executive branch

00:17:37When they're both a part of the same party and they will just deacon try to deconflict that, you know privately. So I think

00:17:45One of the things we were touching on earlier was it would be so important that there's actually enforcement mechanisms for all this stuff

00:17:52the mandate coming from the executive office of the president is huge because they that's ultimately the end-all be-all Authority and

00:17:59you know the fact that the White House and

00:18:03The house are both of the Republican Party and they're the same team

00:18:07you won't necessarily see income a combative nature around this but potentially that creates the

00:18:13Collaborative environment for them to facilitate things coming out in an expeditious fashion

00:18:19It is all yet to be seen but that's it's an interesting

00:18:23It's interesting to see that the task force has been stood up in in in sort of

00:18:28Piggybacking off of the executive order that you just mentioned

00:18:31Right and with the establishment of such a task force to kind of enforce this

00:18:36These documents to be declassified speak to a kind of struggle that is happening within the government one to keep things

00:18:44You know close to the chest and the other to release publicly

00:18:46I've heard that this is the situation with the UAP

00:18:51Disclosure movement that there are elements within the government that

00:18:55Desperately want to keep things a secret and other elements that are ready to let things out and we've seen this with

00:19:00you know things that

00:19:02Whistleblowers have said Dave Grush, etc

00:19:04They're they're approved by people in the Pentagon to say certain things

00:19:07But then other other areas of the Pentagon will outright deny those things that he said

00:19:12So there seems to be a contradiction at play which is a little bit confusing don't you think

00:19:17No a hundred percent. I think I think you're spot-on. And I mean, this is one of the things that we're really trying to

00:19:24facilitate at the UAP disclosure fund is sort of

00:19:28navigating

00:19:29The variety of issues because the way I've described it in the past is there's there's almost this authentic organic

00:19:37Constitutional struggle between the executive branch and the legislative branch

00:19:41About who has sort of authority over UAP materials, right and this whole process

00:19:45and so there's a couple of layers like one issue is the the the friction between

00:19:52Congress the legislative branch they have the power of the purse

00:19:55They create the laws and then the executive branch

00:19:58They run all the federal agencies the armed forces the intelligence community there. They have to faithfully execute the laws

00:20:03So there's like a friction between those two entities because Congress is basically saying I have an oversight

00:20:10Authority as an article one power to have access to the information and the executive branch is saying go kick rocks

00:20:16Right, so that's like one thing and then not only that then within the executive branch itself

00:20:24Across these agencies. So you have one side of things which is like the military the of the other side of things

00:20:29Which is the intelligence community?

00:20:31within those

00:20:33individual sort of verticals you also have tension between

00:20:37middle management bureaucrats or you know staffers or people who are at the fingertips doing work and then

00:20:45Sort of people who come in as leadership at these agencies who are temporary to quote who are called

00:20:52Unaffectionately temporary employees. So just because you have a CIA director or a director of national intelligence

00:20:59Or a director of the FBI who may be pro-disclosure

00:21:03It's still predicated on or it's still necessary that those under the underlings under that director. Who's a political appointee?

00:21:12Pass the information upstream because ultimately if they don't bring the information upstream

00:21:17There can be a desire from the head of these agencies to do something

00:21:21But then not the actual follow-through from folks on the ground who are actually within these programs

00:21:28And so that's like those are there's the executive legislative friction

00:21:33there's the executive hierarchy friction and then there's obviously the the specter of national security as like the

00:21:40undergirding sort of we can't do disclosure because that means we have to

00:21:45Admit to past crimes and we have to figure out who has intellectual property rights over not

00:21:50material of potential non-human origin and how do we deal with profits generated from any derivative technologies and how do we prevent our

00:21:58adversaries from utilizing this to you know

00:22:01Have kinetic, you know impact on our you know armed forces across the globe

00:22:06What if it has energy implications?

00:22:09What do we do about the oil and gas and the petrodollar which has been a bastion of how we've projected global power

00:22:16since World War two

00:22:18You know, there are a lot of really legitimately complex issues as it relates to disclosure beyond just like getting the information out there

00:22:25I do believe that a lot of the challenges we've seen so far are not necessarily

00:22:30Purely about those difficult issues. It's all of this Byzantine bureaucratic, you know

00:22:36Shuffling and you know power dynamics

00:22:40As a probably leading cause within those underlying issues

00:22:44Which are legitimate sort of not even being able to be properly thought about because we're still in the sort of bureaucratic mess

00:22:51Stage it seems like a lot of people seem to feel that

00:22:54we've reached this sort of point of momentum where it's a little bit hard to get the genie back into the bottle so to speak like

00:23:02Disclosure is inevitable at this point and that we just need to find the the best and most effective way to do it

00:23:08And that seems to be where there's a lot of the struggle is coming from. Do you agree with that?

00:23:11I

00:23:12think that that's my personal view and I think there are a lot of folks who are in the sort of disclosure advocacy movement who

00:23:19View view it the same, you know

00:23:21I mean if you look at just polling data right around the

00:23:25Pulsing the opinion of the American people

00:23:27I think it's like two-thirds of the American people believe that we're not alone in the universe and that the US government is

00:23:34Potentially hiding information related to that fact. And so the people are already there you usually

00:23:41Government's action on stuff is a lagging indicator on stuff. They usually don't leave they follow so and we've we've sort of a

00:23:48Lot of times people will say oh well if this was this secrets too big to keep it was a secret

00:23:53You know, we would have heard about it. We have heard about it

00:23:56We've actually been hearing about it for decades and there's been people coming forward for a very very long time

00:24:02saying the exact same things that we're hearing from

00:24:05David Grush or Carl Mel or Lou Elizondo or Christopher Mellon or any of these figures that have been

00:24:12More popularly associated with the modern disclosure movement

00:24:15Which I couch is sort of anything either post 2017, you know, New York Times article or post OSAP which Harry

00:24:23former senator Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid set up in 2008

00:24:27So they're like the the substrate is there right?

00:24:30I mean, you know

00:24:31we've talked about this crash retrieval inverse engineering has been out for decades as a concept and it just appears to just be

00:24:37the lack of the political will to

00:24:41Move it out of the shadows of secrecy and into the public eye now

00:24:48I'll couch that by saying in the public. We also don't know what we don't know

00:24:52And so there are potentially like negative outcomes

00:24:58associated with that that are

00:25:00Reasonably grave that we just have no ability to understand but I think for a lot of folks

00:25:05It's the issue is so it's a it's a fundamental rights issue that you know

00:25:10not only the American people but the you know

00:25:13all of the people of the globe deserve to know the answer to one of arguably the two most fundamental questions, which is

00:25:21You know, where are we from and you know?

00:25:23Why are we here? Like this is you know, sorry

00:25:26We're like where we from and are we alone in the universe like these are fundamental

00:25:31questions to our whole human existence

00:25:33that seems to be something that

00:25:36Despite net potential negative outcomes

00:25:38We collectively deserve to know or you can have the opinion of that guy in the matrix who said ignorance is bliss

00:25:45So I guess it depends on your cup of tea

00:25:48Yeah

00:25:48I feel like that's a very individual thing and there's people who would fall on both sides of the fence on that one for sure

00:25:54Where do you stand on the idea that non-human intelligence is behind a lot of the craft that we're seeing?

00:26:00I think a large majority of what people believe to be anomalous or unconventional craft are a combination of

00:26:08misidentifications of conventional stuff and

00:26:11our own

00:26:12advanced strategic capabilities

00:26:14I do think there is a small percentage of stuff. That is truly weird

00:26:19and if you just look at the long history and it's this is not even like a history of modern society even if you go

00:26:25into antiquity like earlier like, you know

00:26:2813th 14th century like well into the humanist. I mean, this has sort of been a thing that has been

00:26:34defined using different words, but as almost persisted through the entirety of

00:26:40Sort of the history of mankind when you look at sort of the historical record, you know

00:26:44My I sort of look at this from like a Bayesian perspective like probabilities wise

00:26:48I think it's like over 50% like so 51 plus percent chance that the the small percentage of truly anomalous stuff

00:26:56Does represent some form of possible non-human intelligence and then when you get to like well, what does that mean?

00:27:02I think the usage of the word non-human intelligence is important as compared to using like the word

00:27:09extraterrestrial because it's actually not really clear to me personally that we're talking about a phenomenon that is that

00:27:17originates off planet and this gets into a whole series of

00:27:21potential

00:27:23Classification options, which we've actually put up a great

00:27:26Guide on UAP caucus to a variety of the different possible origins of UAP that include conventional explanations

00:27:33that include sort of more

00:27:36metaphysical explanations as well as some of the more popular ones the

00:27:40Extraterrestrial hypothesis being only one of over 90 possible options

00:27:45So I think we have a very limited scope and sort of the popular culture conversation about when we say

00:27:52Non-human intelligence usually people think oh, you know

00:27:55Biological creatures that arose from another rock traveling around another star

00:28:00Somewhere in the universe that flew here conventionally and arrived at Earth

00:28:07and there's like a whole variety of reasons that that the

00:28:11extraterrestrial nature of the phenomenon might be

00:28:14Not the originating use case. So this gets to are they you know ultra terrestrials?

00:28:20Have they always been here? Is it some?

00:28:22Proto-human planetary defense system. Is this sort of the Marvel explanation this interdimensional piece?

00:28:29Is it you know time travel like there's a whole slew of options

00:28:32And so I've I feel comfortable couching it as NHI because it's like there's clearly physical physical material

00:28:39Right. It's a matter of like where does the threshold of human capability end and and then it's what we're seeing above that line

00:28:46Right because clearly as a lot of folks will say our our black budget

00:28:51Intelligence and military programs are 20 years ahead 50 years ahead. That's fine, but they're not a million years ahead, right?

00:28:58I think we can all collectively probably agree. There's at some point because otherwise you you're saying

00:29:04Humanity has figured out everything there is to figure out about the universe and we are able to manufacture and engineer anything

00:29:10to do anything we want or

00:29:12There is some limit somewhere and if there's a limit somewhere there is a there's a there's a space above that which is

00:29:21Definitionally can't be us right and I believe that that space exists. I do not believe

00:29:27Despite how advanced we are in our black budget programs that we've figured out every single possible

00:29:33aspect of what you can do and

00:29:36Manufacture and engineer from a physics and engineering perspective about the universe

00:29:40So that that's how I would couch it a long-winded explanation, but that's you know, we're sort of in speculative territory

00:29:47So I have to make sure I give the appropriate caveats

00:29:49I love some good speculation and I was checking out the guides on the UAP caucus website. And

00:29:56Yeah, it just strikes me that the alternative

00:29:59Theories to extraterrestrial actually in a lot of cases seem even weirder than the extraterrestrial

00:30:06Explanation like we're talking interdimensional time-traveling

00:30:11You know

00:30:12Crypto-terrestrial like all kinds of different things

00:30:16It's the possibilities are endless but it's a lot to wrap your head around for people who especially aren't

00:30:23Ingrained in this or super interested and like watching all of the podcasts and YouTube videos

00:30:27Which is why I wanted to ask you about the public perception

00:30:31What's your estimation of like where we're at in society in terms of like being ready for a huge reveal like this?

00:30:37I don't think if you ask the average person that they're they may be passively interested, but I don't think the average person is like

00:30:45super informed on the UAP

00:30:49goings on so to speak

00:30:51There's there is an abundance of information online

00:30:54and if you are interested like it's now is the time like it's really it's really popping right now, but

00:31:00It doesn't seem like this has reached the mainstream like critical mass just yet to me

00:31:04I think I think you're right that intuition is right and that there are a lot of things to this question

00:31:11so number one is

00:31:14I think for a lot of people

00:31:17You know, they're they're at the stage where they've people have seen Independence Day or they've seen ET and you know

00:31:24They've caught enough of some scrolling and seeing UFO headline, even if they're not consciously engaging with it

00:31:30I think for a lot of people it's like roll out the bodies on a gurney

00:31:34fly the craft in front of the White House or

00:31:38Otherwise, my brain is turned off because I have to pay rent

00:31:41I have to take care of the kids like there's you know

00:31:44Genocides going on creepy like there's all these other things that are less abstract that are much more

00:31:51Tangible for or perceived to be tangible for people's everyday life that just take priority

00:31:55so I think like part of the challenge is a lot of what's happened so far is so

00:32:01It's like the bureaucracy aspect the like story of secrecy and the national security state

00:32:06It's not really like the beef and a lot of folks are like, where's the beef? So I think that's one one aspect

00:32:12I think another challenge and I said this to someone the other day the best time for this to have

00:32:17for this to have come out is actually probably between the Berlin Wall falling down and

00:32:249-eleven and

00:32:25so like

00:32:261990 to 2001 and the reason I say that is we're now in an era with the pervasive usage of

00:32:34Social media and algorithmic feeds as the primary source of where people get information

00:32:39Which are a hotbed for both miss and disinformation

00:32:44and it's also bifurcated us from a

00:32:48Sociological perspective into like these little sort of niche

00:32:53Cohorts whether it's politically whether it's gender identity wise whether it's racially where we actually have very little

00:32:59Fabric of a shared reality anymore

00:33:02So what we're trying to disclosure is about basically coming to a consensus reality

00:33:07That we're not alone in the universe and we're trying to have that arise in an era where we've had the most

00:33:13exponential decrease in the ability to actually foster

00:33:17consensus reality about things that are way less controversial than

00:33:23Not alone in the universe. And so the hurdle is actually like increasing as time goes by because of how

00:33:31Information like digital information and like these information spaces how they like are

00:33:38sort of programming us and then the added layer of complexity is the advancement of

00:33:44generative video and generative photo for AI in terms of muddying the you know in

00:33:51The in 1992 would be it's very difficult. Although some people did do so to like fake

00:33:57UFO media it is trivial to do so now, which is in part why

00:34:05You know like the work we do at UAP Disclosure Fund

00:34:09There is still a view that the government has a role to play in this issue

00:34:14because Adam at least for some people that is still a validating source of

00:34:20Defining what is consensus reality and in lieu of getting some kind of government?

00:34:25Like, you know cosine, you know

00:34:28The next closest thing is gonna be people's own personal experience because no matter how many times you have a craft

00:34:34Landing on the White House lawn on a news broadcast

00:34:37Depending on what channel it's on people are gonna have a certain interpretation depending on what political party says

00:34:43What about it people are gonna have a certain interpretation. And so I think it's it's a very

00:34:49complicated time to actually drive

00:34:52You know and it's why I like to call it consensus versus disclosure because in my view we've kind of already had

00:34:57Disclosure, you know, you know to some extent

00:35:02Particularly like the first point of which was the 20 2021

00:35:07UAP preliminary assessment from the office of the director of national intelligence

00:35:12Which effectively said there's stuff flying around that we don't know about that's in some cases beyond the capability of our stuff

00:35:17That's you know, that's government, you know bureaucratic speak for disclosure

00:35:21So I think really what we're asking for what we're looking for is consensus, which is going to require, you know

00:35:29The physical evidence piece to really come to for

00:35:35Again, because the allegation is that not only does the US government have in its possession along with other world governments multiple craft

00:35:42but also biologics

00:35:44So it's where's the beef is really I think where people are right and were that to happen

00:35:49I kind of see that as potentially being

00:35:53Exactly what the world needs right now in terms of a grand unifying

00:35:57Factor that will bring everybody together as as you mentioned in this time of extreme polarity and and differences of opinion and siloed

00:36:05siloing and and whatnot, but if there was

00:36:08Consensus as you as you say and it may take time as different pockets of people kind of like adapt and and accept

00:36:16But once once that happens

00:36:18Don't you think that would be good for the world to kind of like come together as as the human race and kind of realize?

00:36:24Okay. Yeah, we're we're all one here in this universe that is

00:36:28Potentially populated with you know, limitless other types of beings. I I I would hope that that's the outcome

00:36:36I I I would hope that that's the outcome. I really do

00:36:39um

00:36:40If not in totality at least in parts

00:36:43I do think it changes the reference point by which we like look at our own humanity, right?

00:36:48um, because basically the the

00:36:51even if for a lot of the population of the planet like

00:36:55There's the theoretical idea that we may not be alone in the universe

00:36:59There's a large sort of like distance between that and the tangible reality of like we're literally not alone in the universe

00:37:05And that other intelligence presence is actively

00:37:10with us

00:37:11And engaging with a non-zero amount of the population on earth on a regular basis

00:37:16Again, I think the abstract nature of this has been what's been so difficult for people to connect to historically

00:37:22And so when it becomes concrete, um, I do think it can have it sort of um, I think the recent

00:37:28Uh whistleblower that's come forward

00:37:30The in modern times the first firsthand, uh whistleblower to come forward jake barber

00:37:35Um, he mentioned calling it ontological relief as opposed to ontological shock

00:37:40so there's this viewpoint that

00:37:42The argument is like oh people are going to be ontologically shocked because it's going to be so paradigm shifting

00:37:47And it's going to they're going to be debilitated and it's going to shatter their perception of themselves and family and all these other things

00:37:54That's like one view of like how people respond to the information and jake put this idea out

00:37:58It's like well for me and for a lot of people. It's actually an ontological relief because

00:38:02deep down so many of us

00:38:05feel that there's more to this life and more to everything that's going on around us than kind of this box that

00:38:11You know the modern capitalistic, you know society has put us into so i'm hopeful that that is the um

00:38:19That is how the majority of people receive and react to the information

00:38:24my you know

00:38:25I think the challenge is going to be

00:38:28as is it always is with

00:38:30humanity

00:38:31is

00:38:32the

00:38:33sort of

00:38:36Self-destructive aspect of our nature as it pertains to the war machine

00:38:41The intelligence and national security state and the entrenched interests that have a lot of money

00:38:47that have a lot of power and are going to view this purely from

00:38:52The sort of

00:38:54strategic battlefield advantage perspective

00:38:57Which means the only value to this stuff is does it mean we can deliver payloads faster, right?

00:39:03uh

00:39:04Does it mean we have some sort of military advantage we can gain and anything beyond that is irrelevant

00:39:09And you know, it's it's it's that's that's the thing that worries me is this becoming a runaway arms race?

00:39:16because depending on the

00:39:18fundamentals of the underlying quote-unquote technology

00:39:21um

00:39:22it does

00:39:23Create a pathway to be sort of the thanos weapon the the end of the end game

00:39:30technology, uh, not dissimilar to uh

00:39:36Artificial general intelligence or artificial superintelligence being viewed in the same lens

00:39:41So I actually think there's a lot of parallels between how the ai conversation is happening

00:39:46and sort of the nhi conversation and like the impacts to

00:39:51Humans not being the only intelligence

00:39:53Again, it just sort of has a different

00:39:56suit

00:39:57And obviously several other different, uh things but the conversation currently happening in the ai space is almost the exact same conversation

00:40:04uh, you know around like what does human sovereignty mean and like

00:40:08How do we maintain free will and like all these other things?

00:40:11um

00:40:12so I I think it's going to require all of us to

00:40:15really push

00:40:17the the better nature of our humanity

00:40:20Uh as this continues to potentially unfold in that direction

00:40:23Yeah, it's very interesting how the ai development and the uap disclosure has kind of been happening in tandem

00:40:29And maybe that's not a coincidence. Um, I don't know. It's uh, it's an interesting thing to think about for sure

00:40:34There's also been some sort of like framing about uaps as being uh, a threat until until proven

00:40:41You know like like innocent right?

00:40:43You know that that's kind of the vibe that I get from some of the people who speak about this

00:40:47Um and many of them coming from military backgrounds, so that's kind of like the way that they're trained to think I suppose

00:40:52but what's your estimation of like

00:40:54Should we be worried about?

00:40:57them in any sense like my feeling personally is that they

00:41:02Wanted to do something terrible and malicious. It would have happened already because clearly they have amazing capabilities

00:41:07So, you know, I don't feel particularly stressed out about it. But there is this there is this kind of like, um

00:41:13Cautious language when referring to them like we don't know what they're capable of or what they what they might do

00:41:19Um, so where do you stand on that?

00:41:21I do think this is a really really complex issue. I do agree with you that like at the end of the day. Um,

00:41:28We are theoretically talking about something that is much more advanced than we are as as humans

00:41:33So it doesn't need like we're you know

00:41:35If it wanted to stomp out the ant farm, it could stomp out the ant farm at any time

00:41:40um

00:41:40Just because now saying that just because they haven't stomped out the ant farm yet doesn't mean that they will not moving forward

00:41:47and I think that's always the challenge when you are a

00:41:50Like in the hierarchy of being when you are on the lower a lower peg of that hierarchy

00:41:56I think the the the the the threat quote-unquote is always inherently going to be there because

00:42:03You're operating with something that has a higher consciousness functionality than you do and as such

00:42:08It's almost really I mean we can try our best to try to discern

00:42:12what the intent is because that's really the key question is like what is the intent and

00:42:18um

00:42:19There are two ways to think about this either

00:42:22There is a conscious understanding of us being here and there's an there's like an explicit engagement with us directly

00:42:28So there's a lot of people who are experiencers or who are victims of the abduction phenomena who you know

00:42:34Believe that their experience is actually actively having this very direct and personal, you know

00:42:40Like connection to and and actual shared space with these non-human intelligences, right? So

00:42:48for some people they view that as

00:42:50Like negative because that's kidnapping and they're taking being taken against their will and all this other stuff. Um

00:42:56Some folks would argue that's all a psyop in order to hide the actual true stuff happening

00:43:01By the non-human intelligences and all abductions are actually being run by the government. So without like addressing that distinction

00:43:08um, I I think it's

00:43:10We it is really hard to discern intent when you're dealing with some

00:43:15Thing that is higher on the hierarchy of being than you are

00:43:20And so and and sorry, so one aspect is like they are they have a conscious awareness of us and they're engaging with us

00:43:27From that conscious perspective

00:43:28The other aspect is we don't register at all because they're just doing whatever it is

00:43:33They want to do and we're like an irrelevant and again

00:43:36It's like you don't think about bugs when you're walking in your backyard and oh I might so it's like we could just be bugs

00:43:42And we brush up against each other occasionally

00:43:45But you know, I think lou elizondo has this good analogy where it's like, you know a jet

00:43:51You know could be a threat if you're standing behind the engine

00:43:54um

00:43:55But it's not if you're not and so it's very much about the frame of reference and what our relationship actually is to them

00:44:02Which is always inherently going to be difficult for us to truly assess

00:44:07Because they have more theoretical

00:44:10You know

00:44:11awareness

00:44:13power

00:44:14Control whatever than we do which I think brings up this issue around

00:44:21Why governments don't want to touch this because it really impacts the concept of

00:44:26Sovereignty as nations because we all sign up for this idea of i'm from this place. I'm from that place

00:44:31I pay taxes

00:44:33And it's a deal. It's like I pay taxes. I do all this work on behalf of my country

00:44:37In return for protection opportunity all this other stuff if you come out and say oh there's this thing

00:44:44That's more powerful than this entity

00:44:46You've put all your trust into and there's nothing that we can do about it and it can totally interface with you at any given time

00:44:52Anywhere and that's it. You know, what am I paying taxes for right?

00:44:56like it just it just unlocks that that door a little bit and really creates a little bit of friction around the

00:45:02the the value and power of the nation state and so

00:45:06Not to get into the way I could as you can tell I could keep going and i'm enjoying this

00:45:10But like I think there are complexities

00:45:13There with with with that aspect. Um

00:45:16as well, so I think it's it is it is a

00:45:19That's some like that. Those are some of the questions that I think like reed summers for example

00:45:23Who's also been on is really really?

00:45:26Uh well versed in that's a little bit sort of outside my lane where I don't spend as much time doing the thought leadership there

00:45:32But it is ultimately the next train stop right after

00:45:37the demonstration of existence permeates to more than maybe a couple million people or a couple tens of millions of people which is probably

00:45:44Where we are today, right?

00:45:46And uh, thank you for mentioning reed summers, but shout out to reed and he is the one who connected me with lester. So

00:45:52Thank you very much for that. Appreciate it very much. Um

00:45:56Yeah getting back to the you know

00:45:58One of the most fascinating things for me is is like beyond the question of are we alone?

00:46:02I think a lot of people have kind of moved past that at this point

00:46:05but going a layer deeper and we mentioned jake barber already one of the amazing things that he

00:46:11um that he mentioned in his interviews is that that the craft that

00:46:18the military has possession of or

00:46:21um, or are interacting with whether they're

00:46:24of non-human origin or you know

00:46:27military owned

00:46:28Are controlled through consciousness and he mentioned the military having

00:46:33psychics basically who can interface interact with these craft

00:46:37And that brings up so many questions about just the nature of consciousness itself and what are what are our capabilities and like what?

00:46:44What is this? What are we as humans? What are we as just beings in this universe?

00:46:49So that that is to me the most fascinating

00:46:52aspect of this beyond just are we alone and raises so many questions and and that might be something that

00:46:58People have a hard time grappling with because it touches on religion. It touches on so many different things in the way that we live

00:47:04our lives

00:47:05Um, so I feel like that could be potentially even more disruptive should that come to light the the reveal of this this potential that humans have

00:47:13much more so than just

00:47:15Are there other entities out there?

00:47:18the the psi the psi aspect, you know as it's it's sort of called of the of the uap phenomenon has always kind of been the

00:47:26uh, the black sheep of the disclosure conversation

00:47:29Um much to many people's chagrin who believe that it's it's fundamental

00:47:34um the joke is

00:47:36Anyone who gets who gets uh into the ufo issue starts at the nuts and bolts and ultimately ends in the same place

00:47:42Which is consciousness?

00:47:43um, if you look at

00:47:45Arguably the person who's spent the most the person in the private industry that we know of as the public

00:47:51That has spent the most money personally

00:47:54on this issue, uh, robert bigelow, uh former ceo at bigelow aerospace, he was the main contractor that was running the

00:48:02OSAP program the advanced aerospace weapons systems applications program

00:48:06Which was the predecessor to a tip the program that lou elizondo worked under which many people know

00:48:12He's probably spent more than any single individual human being on earth on this subject

00:48:17He started with the nuts and bolts and guess what his new thing now is it's a consciousness study program, right?

00:48:22And so that is the truth same if you look at you know

00:48:25Legendary researchers likes of like someone like a jacques valet same thing. It's a control system

00:48:31It's much much more complex than simply, you know beings from another planet

00:48:36Which goes back to the note that I was bringing up earlier

00:48:39If you're trying to incorporate all of the history of the ufo subject can account for every

00:48:44type of situation a perfect example of which is

00:48:48Why is it the case that when there's a sighting with multiple people?

00:48:51It's possible that one person sees one thing another person sees another thing

00:48:55Well there it's in part because of this apparent consciousness connection

00:49:00between the observer

00:49:02and the observed in this case the craft and and I agree with you that this is

00:49:08you know, you can even see in the reaction to jake barber coming forward and just the public response who

00:49:14Historically has been able to like follow along with grush and follow along with lou as they've kept it. Oh weird stuff in the sky

00:49:21We crash retrieval

00:49:22You know reverse engineering. It's it's independence day

00:49:26Just like the scene where they said, you know, that's not entirely accurate, sir

00:49:30And then they fly to area 51 that's people's viewpoint of it. But when you start saying oh

00:49:37Every human being has this sort of innate side capability

00:49:41There are a variety of ways that manifest one ways with remote viewing the other ways with this sort of psionics

00:49:47piece where

00:49:49Apparently and this sound I know this is like it's it's like it's so crazy that i'm like

00:49:55Like uncomfortable even sort of like saying it out loud

00:49:58As if it's just a part of the normal conversation, but that's where we're at where it's people are

00:50:04Summoning these craft

00:50:06You know with these side capabilities

00:50:09um, and then also after they've been retrieved it is the mechanism by which you actually navigate

00:50:16these things

00:50:18um

00:50:18And I do one of the one of the interesting aspects of that detail that's become that's always

00:50:25Existed within the ufo lore conversation, but has become prominent in the modern disclosure conversation because of the new whistleblowers that have come forward

00:50:33Is this idea?

00:50:34that like the term crash retrieval is actually a misnomer if

00:50:40Primarily the way that these have been acquired is by way of psionics

00:50:45Which means that's why they're not

00:50:47Happening in timbuk like wherever where there's a bunch of regular people if the primary way in which we've accessed

00:50:54You know the ability to get

00:50:56Close to these things is because we're summoning them

00:50:59then there is no such thing as a you know, a crash retrieval in the

00:51:04Conventional sense where it's like, oh, they're they traveled 90 billion light years and then what they're just gonna crash in our atmosphere

00:51:10And it's like well that might actually be not at all

00:51:13Close to what's happening and it sort of you know

00:51:18removes that like

00:51:20knee-jerk shut down

00:51:23Uh, what do they call it thought limiting thought restricting whatever like just it shuts down the conversation. What's like well

00:51:30if the and

00:51:32Not that saying they're not traveling 90 billion nightly years. Actually, we're just summoning them with our mind is any less

00:51:38Ridiculous, um, i'm not saying it's less ridiculous

00:51:41Um, but it would explain away that sort of argument about well

00:51:44We should be seeing these everywhere and blah blah blah and all this and that so it is

00:51:48a very difficult aspect

00:51:51To wrap your head around and what's fascinating is if you've looked at the interviews coming from this new batch of

00:51:58Sort of special operators that are really hitting the psionics piece heavily

00:52:03The biologics is almost never referenced, right?

00:52:06The there's so much to talk about and they primarily focus on

00:52:10this aspect because

00:52:13If you think about it

00:52:15If that's true

00:52:16And then there's a genetic disposition to people's capability set meaning

00:52:22You can be born with more ability to summon or more ability to navigate

00:52:28You're now having

00:52:30the actual

00:52:31Sub-rosa cold war around reverse engineering

00:52:34may be actually more about

00:52:36Quote-unquote, you know acquiring human assets, which some people might couch as human trafficking

00:52:42Uh or a breeding program to make sure that you're continuing these genetics

00:52:46Versus like this rush to go capture

00:52:50cash crafts as they fall

00:52:52Randomly, and you're sort of having to constantly monitor to get there. So this actually might be much more of a human story

00:52:59quote-unquote, uh, then it's sort of been framed as historically, which I find extremely

00:53:07uh

00:53:08Hard to wrap my head around and equally fascinating

00:53:11Yeah, the rabbit hole is very deep on this one

00:53:13And the the two previous guests that I had on the show were both remote viewing experts and they were fascinating to talk to

00:53:20and and and very knowledgeable about the the government's long history of of psychic programs that have been

00:53:27Even disclosed to the public like over a hundred thousand pages of documents detailing different things that they have done regarding

00:53:33remote viewing and and

00:53:36Telepathic, you know abilities and all kinds of things. Um

00:53:40But where was I going with this?

00:53:42Um, yeah, it's always been one of the easiest

00:53:45Arguments to make is like how could a craft travel 90 million light years whatever and then just crash on earth, you know

00:53:51Like how how lame is that? That doesn't seem plausible

00:53:53but as you said when

00:53:55you introduce the possibility of being able to summon and then

00:53:59Essentially hijack with your mind these craft and force them to land then it starts to make a lot more sense

00:54:04But then it also raises the question

00:54:06Are we pissing these guys off by doing this? Like are we playing with fire here?

00:54:12Right. I think this this speaks to in a small note

00:54:16There's an interesting overlap here with the launch of the telepathy tapes as being really popular in the same moment

00:54:20That psionics kind of rolls out as a part of the mainstream disclosure conversation, but I think I think that's exactly

00:54:28right

00:54:29in that

00:54:31Part of the argument right as to why disclosure is like a right right is because there are

00:54:38apparently unelected officials that are making decisions on our behalf

00:54:44As it relates to a non-human species and our relationship to that non-human species, which you know

00:54:51Yes, people make decisions on our behalf all the time as it relates to conventional special operations and you know

00:54:57Intelligence operations on all these things but generally speaking those all revolve around

00:55:02Conventional things where there's a little bit of a social contract to some extent even if we don't

00:55:07Agree with or understand all the details. It's like, all right, you're gonna go like cultivate assets

00:55:11Maybe you're gonna go assassinate some people

00:55:13Maybe you're gonna go like bomb some pipelines or cut some internet cables

00:55:17But like like the scope of work is is relatively well defined and understood. It's just when and where they do it

00:55:24This is a whole different opaque category

00:55:28and the implications

00:55:30Are equivalent to that of like the idea of mutually assured destruction in terms of the potential implications

00:55:36Which is like the eradication of the species as a whole which we just don't know but they're engaging

00:55:42With you know, it's basically sort of exo politics or whatever, right? They're engaging on our behalf

00:55:48and

00:55:49I'm not particularly keen on taking down because the allegations after they've been summoned they'll use, you know

00:55:56Microwave weapons when it's in a close-off proximity to disable it and that's what sort of leads to the thing actually coming down

00:56:04I'm, not particularly interested in kicking a sleeping dog. Um,

00:56:08you know

00:56:10unnecessarily

00:56:11and so

00:56:12Again, you could spin these wheels all day

00:56:14I was like well if they were pissed off then they would have done something by now and they haven't

00:56:18Are they gifts this and that so you could sort of spin your wheels forever, but it is I do not feel comfortable

00:56:25With the idea that there are shoot downs happening on our behalf as americans

00:56:31um, that is not being at least

00:56:35indirectly

00:56:36uh

00:56:37Brought to the attention of the american people. What about the idea of conducting?

00:56:43um these what

00:56:44Some have termed a ce5

00:56:47Like ceremonies where where they people get together and you know meditate or whatever and and invite

00:56:54Appearances from from uap steven. Greer is a big proponent of that

00:56:58There's the other organization sky watcher that both of us are familiar with who is that is headed by jake barber

00:57:04um

00:57:05Yeah, what's your stance on that? Some people think that that is

00:57:09Risky, um in that you don't know what you're going to get when you are trying to interact with these

00:57:15Uh other if you want to call them, well, just call them uaps

00:57:20Because again, we don't know what the intent is

00:57:23Um, it's it's not clear to us. So it may be an unnecessary risk to

00:57:28Kind of invite them into close proximity without understanding that

00:57:33I I do think it's

00:57:35It's tough. I think it's tough. Um

00:57:38The way I sort of couch it is like I I couldn't in good conscious tell a friend to go do it

00:57:45Because I don't know what I don't know

00:57:48and

00:57:49you know

00:57:50So so I you know to the extent that people do do it and have a positive experience

00:57:57and you know are able to

00:57:59glean

00:58:00information that can be sort of

00:58:03Disseminated amongst the public. I think great. I do think you know, it is a

00:58:08It I mean it is inherently a risk without understanding the intent and this kind of dovetails with

00:58:14What people have sort of said about this which is

00:58:18much like um

00:58:21Meditation or any of these other mindful practices

00:58:25uh

00:58:26or even people who talk about

00:58:28uh, how they use psychedelics or things like dmt

00:58:31Like what your mind state is prior to engagement is like of paramount importance

00:58:37And so there are people who have negative experiences

00:58:39But that's because they came into it with like pre-existing negative

00:58:44Energy or whatever and the same thing for people with positive experiences because they have pre-existing positive entry points. Um

00:58:52So so I think it's risky

00:58:55however, you know, I you know if it's the methodology by which we get more information being a

00:59:01Test pilot is risky right anything on the frontier of any subject is risky because there are unknowns

00:59:06and I think one of the aspects of humanity that has led us to where we are today is that

00:59:11We have for generations

00:59:14for millennia been willing to take that risk in any number of different arenas you could identify and

00:59:20Sometimes it doesn't pay off, but sometimes it does and so the question is are these the apollo astronauts who are gonna you know

00:59:27Help us get to the moon or is this another analogy? I'm not quick enough to think of that's the negative of of that example

00:59:35Um, I I do think though as a last note on this

00:59:39This is why religion

00:59:41Is continues to still be a key part of this conversation. It has always been and will be a key part of this conversation

00:59:47you know arguably the

00:59:49Almost every religious text includes the concept of non-human intelligence

00:59:54Uh, but it's in this sort of spiritual or metaphysical lens

00:59:59But ostensibly it overlaps with what people deem to be uap or ufo experiences at least in part

01:00:07But there's you know, obviously there's a clear

01:00:10um

01:00:12fear

01:00:13and uh push back particularly from

01:00:17uh sort of uh

01:00:19the the christian and western religious contexts that

01:00:23Ce5 and all these other things are effectively a practice in demonology and that you're engaging with demons

01:00:31um, and you're like bringing them into our world by

01:00:34Participating in that and that is not my personal viewpoint, but I do know that a lot of

01:00:41folks who have strong religious inclinations

01:00:44Feel very passionately about that. Yeah, perhaps not impossible. Um, who's to say

01:00:50I was hoping you could talk a little bit more about the organizations that you're a part of

01:00:54The uap disclosure fund has some some big players involved. Uh, lou elizondo gary. Nolan chris. Mellon among others

01:01:02Um, what is the what is the group's mission and like what can you tell us about what you're what you guys are working on?

01:01:09Yeah, so at uapdf I joined just about a year ago

01:01:13um as the director of operations and the the primary entry point is we're

01:01:17basically one of the premier civil society organizations that are really trying to help facilitate the

01:01:23Answering of the questions of how do we actually?

01:01:27Facilitate the process of disclosure. Um, if you think about any other

01:01:32Social or political issue, right?

01:01:34There is a slew of think tanks and these consulting firms and all these people who write white papers and bring together

01:01:42You know conferences and meetings such that all of the nodes for whatever that issue is are able to

01:01:48Have a conversation and ideate on like what is the solution?

01:01:52One of the things that i've learned in working in the special design

01:01:55There is no plan like there's no plan within the executive branch or legislative branch of like oh like here's the 15 step process

01:02:03Like that it doesn't exist. So in part like

01:02:06this sort of twofold

01:02:08Raising the awareness amongst particularly staffers and members of congress and the rest of the folks in and around the sort of dc

01:02:15Space, so it's like consultants the intelligence community armed forces. Um

01:02:20Like you mentioned earlier. There's not necessarily a high level of awareness of the fact that this is a real issue

01:02:26The pentagon has a ufo office that this is a normal political thing

01:02:30So part of it is that and then the second piece is like helping to think through the actual policy

01:02:36Like structure and implementation

01:02:38Of how do we now move forward? So for example

01:02:43two of our first policy briefs there one was um, lou elizondo put together an article about the importance of

01:02:50having

01:02:51Deconfliction with our advanced strategic capabilities and the uap issue and then our second policy brief was

01:02:59Arguably i've not seen otherwise the first legal scholarship in a peer-reviewed legal journal

01:03:05the harvard national security review on the history

01:03:09the modern history of congress's engagement in this ufo subject and like

01:03:14really sort of unpacking questions around something that's come up really frequently, which is

01:03:19Oh whistleblowers say they need protections to go talk to congress

01:03:24Based on what?

01:03:25Because there's never there's no nothing precluding

01:03:29It's any member of the government to go giving a protected disclosure to committees within congress

01:03:36With the way the ecosystem is there's nothing proclaiming

01:03:39So there's there's a perception that they can't do so but no one's ever been prosecuted for making a protected disclosure to congress

01:03:46and so part of it is like really sort of pulling the threads on these

01:03:51Narrative talking points and actually doing the work to say wait a minute. Is that actually true?

01:03:56Or are is are people just saying that because that's what's been said

01:04:01forever

01:04:01Um, so those are really kind of the two lanes that the ua pdf really operates in. Um,

01:04:08with the third piece

01:04:10which is now becoming a

01:04:12really key

01:04:14Variable is the pipeline for whistleblowers. Um, you know, they're they're historic. There's no

01:04:21If you look at the whistleblowers that have come forward historically at you know, the big ones it's grush

01:04:26Who came through ross colthart the australian journalist who now works at news nation?

01:04:30And jake barber and his sort of cohort who also came through ross colthart at news nation who's an australian journalist?

01:04:36So there we need to have the capability to help facilitate whistleblowers coming forward with some domestic entity

01:04:44Um, like some american entity should be the one at the tip of the spear of this issue

01:04:51We shouldn't be depending on a foreign journalist to be doing so which is not a knock at ross at all

01:04:57I think he's done great work in moving this forward. There's just a variety of

01:05:01strategic reasons

01:05:03Intelligence, you know issues right as a foreign national

01:05:07There's a variety of ways in which you know, it becomes complicated if he's dealing with you know

01:05:13Whistleblowers talking about classified information for the united states. So there's just a whole variety of issues there

01:05:19So I think more around that front from ua pdf will be

01:05:23Coming out in the coming months

01:05:25But that's become an increasingly

01:05:28large priority

01:05:29because of the contemporary events that we're seeing happen where

01:05:33I think again the sort of like you said the cat's out of the bag the the sort of toothpaste is out of the tube

01:05:40And I think more and more people who have been in and around

01:05:44the quote-unquote legacy program

01:05:47Are feeling more emboldened

01:05:50um

01:05:51You know now than they were even a year ago

01:05:53Uh that the environment is not going to be hostile to them coming forward

01:05:57Why do you think the american?

01:05:59Mainstream media hasn't been more active in in helping disclosure come forward

01:06:03It seemed like the doors were open after that 2017 new york times article like it was open season now now it's fine

01:06:10It's a legitimate thing to talk about but we haven't seen too much action from

01:06:15Uh legacy media, um on the in in bringing new information forward with regards to disclosure. Why do you think that is?

01:06:23It's a great question people have a lot of arguments about this and have a lot of ideas about what the cause is

01:06:28I think it's it's a combination of things. I think one issue is like a generational thing

01:06:34uh, so the the producers executive producers the decision makers in a lot of these newsrooms are from

01:06:41The you know the previous generation where this was always heavily ridiculed and total nonsense

01:06:46And would be the thing that ended your journalistic career

01:06:50which was

01:06:51uh, you know ostensibly

01:06:53uh a result that was

01:06:56Sought after by folks who've been pushing this sort of disinformation and the stigma out of the executive branch

01:07:03Historically so they were successful in doing that that's created a generation of producers who don't want to touch this regardless of new information

01:07:10And it's just their own personal bias. So I think who runs the newsroom matters and there's a generational gap there

01:07:16Um, so I think that's one. I think two there is still

01:07:20um access journalism is the thing and

01:07:23You know, the gatekeepers still have you know, their fingers in all of the pies across a lot of mainstream media

01:07:30So as soon as there's a you know trial balloon if someone may be writing a story on the issue, right?

01:07:35Well, it'd be terrible if you lost access to you know, this, you know new dod breaking news

01:07:41That's gonna be really valuable. It would be a shame if you didn't get that story. So, you know people

01:07:48Will always negotiate in favor of maintaining their access

01:07:51Which means they're not going to do things that are going to you know, rock the boat on that relationship. So I think that's

01:07:57that's that's the second piece and

01:08:00um, I think the third piece is

01:08:03That the information space is so complicated and the media has been so disengaged for so long that the hurdle to get into it is

01:08:11significantly high

01:08:13And that the pace of the news cycle is so fast that it's just like oh just as I was kind of getting my bearings

01:08:18Oh, let me go chase this thing. That's easier to deal with or chase that thing. That's easier to deal with

01:08:23So I think it's like the barrier to entry is like not low to

01:08:27establish a situational understanding of like all the moving parts because

01:08:31The subject has been flooded with a whole bunch of nonsense as much as there is legitimate information and like weeding through that it takes

01:08:39Real time and a lot of these mainstream media places like don't pay

01:08:44for

01:08:46Investigative journalism of that

01:08:48Variety anymore. It's just not what they do. It's topic of the day

01:08:53Opinion, let me just fling out some easy opinions and then we can call it a day. So I think I think those are all

01:08:59Sort of some of the main issues and what's funny is if you look purely from a profit motive perspective

01:09:07And you look at outlets that have done ufo stories. They are almost

01:09:12universally the most popular story of the year of the quarter or the most watched video on their youtube

01:09:19It's so there is a clear profit motive

01:09:23even if you weren't doing it altruistically to talk about the subject because

01:09:26It demands a lot of traffic and if you're an ad-based

01:09:30business

01:09:32And traffic is the variable that matters most to you. It actually is nonsensical that they don't cover this issue

01:09:38Given how much hunger for information there is so I i've just never been able to understand

01:09:45They're not even acting in their own

01:09:48personal financial interest by like there's a anyway, so I just it's curious to me

01:09:53It's curious to me. I understand why like it's all the reasons I said, so it's not like, um, i'm surprised but

01:10:01The thing that surprises me is that they don't do it just for the money

01:10:04Which I do find interesting because people talk about oh the ufo grifting grifting all the time and i'm like if the ufo was a grift

01:10:10All of the people these media organizations need money

01:10:14They'd be the first ones on it

01:10:16Yeah, they're not flush with cash. So if there was going to be a grift

01:10:20Uh, you know, they would be first movers on it anyway

01:10:24yeah, on the flip side, there's no shortage of of um,

01:10:28Movies and documentaries and other media coming out about the topic like I haven't seen so many

01:10:33Netflix mini series on uaps in the past year

01:10:37uh before uh, so clearly there's all the

01:10:41There's a hunger for for information about this out there and uh, people are getting it from all over the place

01:10:46I mean like look at we're doing look at what we're doing right now

01:10:49Like who would have thought and people are shocked in the comments like watch mojo is covering uaps where they're doing a podcast

01:10:55Oh my god, that's so weird

01:10:57But look, this is what people want to hear about because it's important and you know, it's it's worth talking about

01:11:02So so we have to do it. Um, I have one final question before we wrap it up

01:11:08Can you pinpoint?

01:11:09one single

01:11:11Roadblock that is hindering the disclosure process that that if removed would make things considerably easier

01:11:19That's a great question

01:11:21um

01:11:23I'm trying to think about which roadblock

01:11:27Uh, let me let me think on this first I guess a great question, um

01:11:32Can I can I give two i'll give you two I think one roadblock arguably is

01:11:41Past legislation

01:11:43So either the national security act of 1947 or the atomic energy act

01:11:49Because both of those are are legis are statutory. It's legislation. It's not an executive order

01:11:55and those have been alleged to be the

01:11:59the

01:12:00Authority by which all things relate to ufos or uap are born classified

01:12:05So those are like the original sin, right?

01:12:08Um, so I would count just like that and it's like how do you how do you like write that ship, right?

01:12:14Which requires legislative action which requires getting all of congress to be on board to like do something about it?

01:12:19And it wasn't specifically about uaps either of those two things and there's there's such they're so ingrained in the history of our sort of

01:12:27statutory

01:12:28Foundations that that's like a real hard nut to crack. Um, so that's one

01:12:34I think the second

01:12:36is

01:12:37uh the president of the united states

01:12:40um the president of the united states

01:12:43If there ever was one that wanted to prioritize this issue

01:12:47It could start and end with that person

01:12:50And so the will of the president to do it is number two. Um

01:12:55President trump has touched has spoken on this issue. He's already expressed that he doesn't really get it

01:13:02He doesn't really believe it, you know, but it's the number one thing people ask him. Oh, they always ask me

01:13:08Where are the aliens? So like it's something that's asked but he's not personally

01:13:12Super motivated. I will make a note that it does seem to be the case that bill clinton president bill clinton

01:13:19was motivated because if you look now at

01:13:23The cohort of jake barber and all these guys that have come forward recently. They they basically all kind of got spun up

01:13:30at this time in the 90s where it appears that

01:13:35Bill clinton was trying to basically set up

01:13:38his own people to go in there and figure stuff out and that was sort of the beginnings of the

01:13:44Unspooling where you now have sort of what's being couched as the black team the bad people

01:13:49the legacy program people the gatekeepers and the blue team, which is sort of this

01:13:54Newer cohort of folks who think that something should be done about this

01:13:57So I think that those are probably if I had to couch like the two biggest roadblocks

01:14:02It would be those two and I say

01:14:05Uh, I say the president

01:14:07because

01:14:09The information is housed within the executive branch

01:14:12And the president has the authority over all of that information

01:14:15And he has the sole authority to declassify

01:14:18So, you know and congress can ask

01:14:22the executive branch for the information

01:14:25They can draft legislation that creates requirements

01:14:29That the executive branch provide that information

01:14:32But there's a lot of leeway given to the president to rebuff that even if there was legislation

01:14:40Mandating that the president do so the president has the authority to say because of national security. I don't want to do that

01:14:46and so it really starts and ends with the executive office of the president, um

01:14:52As where the mandate needs to originate and then all the antibodies

01:14:57Through the executive agencies and then a collaborative a collaborative effort within congress can take shape

01:15:03now I say that that doesn't mean that efforts to bring congress up to speed are irrelevant because

01:15:11Some of those members are going to eventually run for president

01:15:14right

01:15:15And if this ultimately starts unraveling, they're going to be the body that holds hearings to unspool this publicly

01:15:23So it is a yes and not either or but those I think are the two biggest

01:15:27Issues the national security act of 1947 the atomic energy act and the will of the president

01:15:33That's a great answer and and I I know there's going to be a lot of people in the comments

01:15:37Theorizing about how much power the president actually has and what kind of nefarious forces are working against him and and blocking

01:15:45Different things but I think that's for another episode. So

01:15:50Maybe too big I'll leave you with this

01:15:52I don't I'll leave you with this if the president of the united states were to go make a prime time statement

01:15:57about this subject

01:15:59in isolation

01:16:01there's

01:16:02The u.s. Government is the one of the largest employers on the planet

01:16:05And if that mandate comes from quote-unquote heaven, I we've never seen that before and I think I understand people's

01:16:12Pessimism about what authority like will he get the information if he provides that mandate he or she whoever it may be in the future

01:16:18Uh that will change the calculus in a way we've never seen before

01:16:22Well, here's hoping that we get more and more information as the year rolls on and so far. We're off to a good start. I think

01:16:28absolutely

01:16:29Thank you so much. Lester. I really appreciate your time. It's great speaking with you and I hope we can do this again

01:16:34Likewise pleasure. Thank you for everybody who watched once again, please

01:16:39Leave a comment. I'd love to hear what you guys think I read all the comments

01:16:43And we'll be back again with more guests digging deeper into the uap phenomenon

01:16:48So until then stay curious and take care everybody

01:17:09You

The Roadmap To Full UAP Disclosure With Lester Nare | Unveiled Ep. 5

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