The mortgage landscape has changed dramatically over the past few years, and LOs are feeling the effects. Rising rates, shifting customer expectations, and increased reliance on technology have created a challenging environment. But success is still achievable for those who embrace the right mindset and methods.
In this webinar, Dale Vermillion, an industry leader who has trained tens of thousands of originators all over the United States, will provide insights and strategies you can immediately implement to help you thrive in 2025 and beyond. Whether you’re looking to boost production, strengthen partnerships, or improve borrower relationships, this session will equip you with the tools to tackle 2025.
In this webinar, Dale Vermillion, an industry leader who has trained tens of thousands of originators all over the United States, will provide insights and strategies you can immediately implement to help you thrive in 2025 and beyond. Whether you’re looking to boost production, strengthen partnerships, or improve borrower relationships, this session will equip you with the tools to tackle 2025.
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LearningTranscript
00:00I'm Allison LaForgia, the Managing Editor of the Content Studio at HousingWire.
00:11And today our topic is From Mindset to Method Strategies for the Modern LO.
00:17I am going to pass things over to the Director of the Content Studio, Zeb Lowe.
00:22Zeb, the floor is yours.
00:24All right.
00:25Thank you very much.
00:26Thank you, Allison.
00:27So before we really dive into it, let me kind of tee up our, kind of the context of this
00:32conversation and the framework that we're working out of today, because this is something
00:37a little bit different than how we normally do things at HousingWire.
00:42We're going to work within a kind of a hybrid framework.
00:46Dale and I are going to have kind of a free-flowing conversation and discussion that is inspired
00:55by previous conversations that Dale and I have had over the past couple of weeks.
01:01And so I went back and made a slide deck based off of some really good and important talking
01:10points from our past conversations that I hope could kind of steer or guide this conversation
01:18today.
01:20But what is paramount, what is most important is the conversation first.
01:25So we're not necessarily going to be bound by what's on the screen.
01:30They just kind of serve as general guidestones for us.
01:35So if we go down a few rabbit holes, that's totally okay.
01:39And if we don't get through everything that we've got prepared today, that's okay as well,
01:43because we want to make sure that we carve off some time at the end to answer any questions
01:51or as many questions as possible for those of you in attendance.
01:57So what we're hoping to do is first discuss the current landscape of loan origination
02:05in 2025, the current challenges and opportunities as well.
02:12And through this conversation with Dale, look at possible strategies, mindset shifts, opportunities,
02:21as mentioned earlier, and also provide some practical takeaways for those of you to implement
02:27into your business today, tomorrow, and on into the future for the long term.
02:36Looking at our attendees list and our registrants, we've got quite a few people that are first
02:41time attendees with us.
02:44And so that means I probably need to introduce myself a little bit, give a little bit of
02:49my background.
02:50As Allison said, I'm the director of the content studio here at HousingWire.
02:53I've been here for about 10 months, but my background is in the mortgage space.
02:58I've been an originator for about 15 years, not just origination, but content creation
03:03and training and onboarding specialists as well.
03:09But all that pales really in comparison to our speaker who really doesn't need an introduction,
03:16but he's going to get one nonetheless.
03:19So our speaker, who's with us as a 25-year mortgage veteran, award-winning trainer, speaker,
03:25and the author of Navigating the Mortgage Maze, Mr. Dale Vermillion.
03:29Dale, thank you for joining us.
03:32Zeb, it's an honor to be here.
03:33I'm super excited about today.
03:36So what I wanted to talk to you about and get your, I guess, kind of get a general overall
03:42analysis, the kind of the state of loan origination in 2025, because I feel like we've got a couple
03:51of things that are challenges for originators that have kind of compounded themselves right
03:58now that are really unique.
03:59So I think that originators are facing historical, like cyclical historical challenges, obviously
04:06like high rates and cost of living challenges for borrowers.
04:13They're all like inflationary challenges that are, depending on when someone got into this industry,
04:19this could be their first time riding something like this out, but this could be an old hat.
04:24Someone could be second or third time they've gone through the cycle.
04:29On top of that, though, we also have things that have never really happened before,
04:35which are fueled by technology, right?
04:38And the rampant rise and not just the rise, but the push from within our industry of the adoption of AI that is
04:48that's created a kind of a cultural shift as well in the way that humans interact and communicate with one another.
04:56This really pushed our industry, I feel, to, like I said, a major kind of turning point.
05:05And I don't know, I just I wanted to kind of get your thoughts on where we're at as an industry and where we're
05:13at kind of as a profession, the modern loan originator dealing with these set of struggles.
05:17Great opening questions, Zeb.
05:19So, you know, we titled this Mindset and Methodology for a reason, because really that's the only two things that
05:26matter at the end of the day when it comes to either a lender or an originator in their success.
05:29It's how you think about the business in yourself, and then it's what you do with what you think.
05:36In other words, your attitudes and your actions that make all the difference at the end of the day.
05:41So let's start by addressing, you know, kind of the state of the landscape of the market today.
05:48And it's amazing to me how we think about things truly dictates what we perceive and then what we accomplish.
05:59So let's start with the market.
06:00You said something really important, Monique.
06:01You said, you know, we've got some challenges in the marketplace today.
06:03We've got high rates.
06:05We've got customers who are dealing with a very tough economy right now with inflation, with prices at the pump, prices in the grocery line, prices in retail.
06:14We've got insurance costs going up.
06:16We've got property taxes going up.
06:18We've got all these things that on the surface would tell you this is absolutely a terrible market for mortgage.
06:25And I would tell you, Zeb, it's the opposite if you're looking through my eyes.
06:29And here's the reason why, okay?
06:32Let's go back to what we do for a living in the mortgage arena.
06:35I'm going to simplify this almost to be so simplistic it's going to be mind-warping, okay?
06:41I ask people the question all the time, what's our product in the mortgage arena?
06:46And I get a thousand different answers, and there's only one right answer.
06:49It's money.
06:50This is a money business.
06:52We provide people with the money and the funds to live the American dream, to own their home, to, if they own a home, use their equity in appropriate ways, to build wealth and to pay off debts and to create improvements and to grow assets.
07:06There's just so many things to do, but it's all based on money.
07:09Now, having said that, let's think about this for a minute.
07:12The economy is tough.
07:13There's no question about that.
07:16Isn't this when we're the most needed?
07:18Isn't this when we have the most opportunity?
07:20I believe it truly is.
07:22And here's the reason why.
07:23Let me give you a couple of statistics to kind of change people's thinking, Zeb, about the marketplace today, okay?
07:28Everybody talks about affordability and inventory and interest rates.
07:31Well, let me address things that are a little bit more important, then I'll come back and address those three in detail so we've got answers on those.
07:37But let's start with what is happening in the marketplace today that we need to know about that tells us there's a great opportunity to succeed.
07:45And here's the first thing that's happening.
07:46We are living in a marketplace where Fannie Mae just predicted we're going to have 4.25 million homes sell this year.
07:53That's the number of mortgage transactions we're expecting in the purchase market alone, okay?
07:58Now, I want you to think about something, all right?
08:00That's an increase again over the last three years, but we've seen the industry decrease by over 40% in the number of people that are working as originators to help those customers.
08:12So, if I'm an independent originator, I'm looking at this going, well, wait a minute.
08:15Okay, the numbers keep going up for the number of loans are going to close and the number of loan originators keeps going down, which means my pie is getting bigger, not smaller.
08:25So, when I hear a loan officer talk about the challenge of originations, what challenge are you referring to?
08:31Because as I see it, we've got more opportunity than we've ever had before.
08:33Now, let's take that a step further.
08:35Let's look at demographics, okay?
08:38If you look at the baby boomers and the generation after them, that was a combination of 133 million people.
08:46You look at Gen Y, Gen Z, it's 168 million people.
08:51We have so much demand for homeownership that is off the charts today, that is forging an opportunity for us for decades to come.
09:00And as I always like to say, Zeb, I've never met a fifth grader who if you ask him the question is going to say, when I grow up, I want to be a renter.
09:08Okay, that's not the American dream.
09:10Homeownership is.
09:11That's how you build wealth.
09:12Homeowners in America, according to Barry Habib, have 40 times the wealth of renters.
09:18So from a purchase standpoint, we've got all kinds of opportunities.
09:23Now, I know what people are going to say, what about inventory?
09:25Well, what about inventory?
09:27Let's talk about that for a minute.
09:28We're at a little bit over 800,000 units right now in inventory or somewhere around there.
09:32It bounces between mid 700s and low 800s for the last six months or so.
09:37Yet again, we've got a 40% smaller marketplace that we're dealing with.
09:41And if you think about a normal market, it's about 1.1 million units.
09:45We've got plenty of units that are out there.
09:47The problem is, if the inventory seems too small, the problem for the originator is probably
09:53not the inventory.
09:54It's probably more their network.
09:56How big is your network to create opportunities for you to augment inventory issues?
10:01Because here's what we know about purchase transactions.
10:04Many of them happen on what we call the front sheet.
10:06That's the MLS listings that we all see that gets sold.
10:09But a lot of them happen on the back sheet, where two realtors know about transactions
10:12of homes that are going to sell.
10:14They never hit the MLS.
10:15They happen through conversation with individuals.
10:18If you have a larger network, you get more access to that pie, and you close more loans
10:23as a result of that.
10:24So in the purchase world, there's so much opportunity.
10:27Let's talk about refinances for a minute here.
10:29This is really critical.
10:30As we set this whole conversation up, I'm going to give you a couple of stats that are
10:34absolutely imperatively important to know.
10:37If you ask most loan originators today, what kind of a market is this?
10:40They're going to say, well, it's a purchase market.
10:41There's no refis.
10:42Wrong.
10:43My best clients, 40% of their business is refi.
10:46In fact, my two top clients last year, 100% of their business was refi.
10:50But here's the deal.
10:52They're not doing rate and term refis.
10:54They're doing cash out debt elimination refis.
10:56They're helping consumers in this tough economic world really be able to come up for air.
11:03So let me give you three stats.
11:04Number one, the Ascent, who looks at consumer debt and non-mortgage debt every year and
11:09does a culmination of what the average household debt is.
11:12Last year, the average household debt, $104,000.
11:15You and I talked about this before.
11:18We were both like, wow, never thought we'd see that kind of a number for non-mortgage
11:23debt.
11:24When you consider the fact that consumer debt, personal debt, non-mortgage debt typically
11:28has a payment of about 2.75% of the balance.
11:32That means if you've got $30,000 in debt, you're paying almost $850 a month.
11:37If you literally got a hundred thousand, you're paying $2,700.
11:40And you know what?
11:41It doesn't matter what your mortgage rate is.
11:43At 7%, you could combine all that, lower your payments absolutely substantially.
11:49Let's look at another stat, equity.
11:51The average loan to value today is 42%.
11:53According to CoreLogic, that's $305,000 in gross equity.
11:58So here's what we've got.
11:59We've got $305,000 in gross equity, $244,000 at an 80% loan to value, and $104,000 in average
12:06household debt.
12:07We've got some opportunities to help people really change their life by not only helping
12:12them lower payments, but helping them reduce terms, get out of debt, get cash for things
12:16they need.
12:17And let's talk about cash for a minute.
12:2059% of homeowners have less than $10,000 liquid cash availability in all of their investments.
12:27So when you combine all these things up, we've got a great marketplace.
12:31Now let me answer one more thing you mentioned, that was technology.
12:35What makes a great originator today?
12:38Is it having all the tech stack?
12:40Absolutely not.
12:41Everybody's got that.
12:42In fact, that's part of our problem.
12:44The loan officers that absolutely perform the worst are the ones who rely on technology
12:50wholeheartedly to run their business.
12:52And AI is going to eat them up.
12:53If you're worried about AI, then just keep working with technology, and you're going
12:57to make yourself susceptible to that.
12:59However, the loan officers that I'm training that are doing 50, 75, $100 million and more
13:04a year in business in 2023 and 2024, they're all about relationship.
13:10They're bringing the human element back.
13:13They use technology.
13:14I'm not an anti-tech guy.
13:15I'm an absolute pro-tech guy.
13:18Technology's place in the mortgage arena is to help create better efficiency for the consumer,
13:24simplify the process, and create uniformity and get access to documentation better.
13:29The place it's not designed for is the development of the relationship with the customer.
13:35We've got to do that.
13:36We've got to build that.
13:37And if we build that through a human connection, taking time with our borrower, slowing down,
13:42making sure we do that, we're going to win.
13:45The rates are the rates.
13:47Whether rates are 7%, 6.5, 6, people are going to buy either way, and they're going to need
13:52access to lowering their payments in cash either way.
13:55The rate's not the problem.
13:56It's how we position, how we think towards the market, how we believe that makes all
14:02the difference.
14:03That makes sense?
14:04I know I went there a little bit.
14:05I hope I gave you a lot to work with on that, but I wanted to lay a good foundation for
14:09this conversation.
14:10No, it does.
14:12Because whenever you and I had spoken before, we talked about purpose, right?
14:18And how a lot of the times whenever you're as an originator, and this is something that
14:24I went through a lot, especially early in my years as an originator, trying to get better.
14:31Not just make money, but just become better, become a better professional.
14:37Trying to find the tips and the tricks, and you kind of piecemeal this advice together.
14:47And a lot of the times whenever you kind of do that yourself, you kind of have this patchwork
14:53system at play of either processes or technical aspects of becoming an originator, of origination,
15:01let's say, or how you operate your business.
15:05And then you will try to impose, kind of from the top down, try to impose purpose on top
15:12of that, right?
15:13And if you, that's incorrect.
15:17That doesn't really sustain, that doesn't sustain through a harsh winter, let's say.
15:22Like what you're talking about, the rates is a perfect example, right?
15:26Like a lot of the time people are going to go, when the rates drop, that's when refi season is, right?
15:31But if you're taking a customer, a relationship first, a customer-centric approach first,
15:37it would make total sense to be, but you have to be, obviously, you have to be far more plugged in
15:42to your customers and not watching the rates first, watching your customers first,
15:48you know, through and through.
15:52No, I'm just saying, go ahead, go ahead.
15:54You know, you're making such a great point.
15:55It comes down to the need of your customers.
15:58You know, what are they, everybody asks us, you were an originator, you know this.
16:03Everybody asks the same first question, what's your rate?
16:07Why do they ask you that?
16:09A lot of loan officers think that's a literal question, that they're asking that because
16:13it's the most important thing to the consumer.
16:15That is not why they're asking you that.
16:18They don't know one number from another, and the number doesn't mean anything anyway.
16:22When you ask me as a consumer, what's the rate?
16:25What they're really asking me is what's my rate, in other words, their rate.
16:30They want to know what they're going to pay for that mortgage.
16:32And at the end of the day, they don't know all the other pieces that come with that.
16:36I couldn't answer that question if I wanted to because I don't know which product is best,
16:40which term is best, which program is best, what LTV they're going to have, how we're
16:44going to configure the loan.
16:46There's so many factors that I don't know, and I don't know their qualifications.
16:50What they really are asking us in that question is, hey, I need something, I'm looking for
16:57a mortgage, and I'm going to start with the question that's the condition response that
17:01everybody tells me I should ask, which is what's your rate, as the first question.
17:05But the fact of the matter is what I really want to know is how are you going to help
17:10me?
17:11How are you going to improve my life?
17:12How are you going to create more cash flow for my family in a difficult economic time?
17:17How are you going to get me out of debt faster than your competition would?
17:20How are you going to help me create tax benefits that a mortgage loan can provide?
17:24How are you going to help me get access to cash to create reserves to protect my family
17:29if I lose my job?
17:31That's what they really want to know, and how are you going to get me that home in a
17:34payment I can afford?
17:35And how are you going to do it with the money that I have to put down?
17:38These are the questions they're asking behind the question.
17:42And if our purpose is to really serve our customers, at Mortgage Champions we have an
17:47others first philosophy, means we put our customers, and our partners, and our colleagues
17:52before ourselves.
17:53And when you do that, when you have that kind of a mindset, you're just wanting to know,
17:58look, let's talk about what you're trying to accomplish financially, because that's
18:01what we do in the mortgage arena, and then let me come up with a solution for you.
18:06And part of that solution, I'll tell you what the rate is, but I'll also cover the fees,
18:10I'll also cover the terms, I'll also cover all the details, and more importantly, I'll
18:14show you all the benefits of how I'm going to save you money.
18:16Can I ask you about that?
18:18Because this is something I wanted to address with you, or have you address, because I feel
18:23like a lot of the time, whenever people, or whenever loan originators hear this, especially
18:31when they hear the customer-centric approach, it gets misinterpreted as kind of a one-size-fits-all
18:40prescription for a personality type, right?
18:44And there are, I mean, like, you know, the Lord knows, I mean, there are a ton of different
18:48personality types in this industry, right?
18:50I mean, I know just as many loan originators that are begrudging salesmen, right, that
18:58are very successful, but they're not, I mean, they're not people people.
19:01But I know a ton of LOs that are, they are great sales, I mean, they are closers, you
19:08know, and a lot of really good, successful LOs that are not, they just like serving someone
19:15with that, that's not at the forefront of their mind, but yet they are still successful.
19:22Can you kind of expand on like, on how, that's just not, that's not their primary nature,
19:28let's put it that way, right?
19:29Can you kind of expand on how that's kind of this customer-centric service, putting
19:34the customer first, how that can work for the various personality types that we find
19:41ourselves with in, you know, in the industry?
19:46Does that make sense?
19:47Yeah, so, you know, I have conversations all the time with all these different personality
19:51types you're referring to, because I train thousands upon thousands of people every month.
19:55I've trained almost 2 million originators in my career.
19:58You know, 40 years meets a lot of people when you do what I do.
20:02So, I ask them this question when I'm talking to a loan officer, I say, look, let me ask
20:06this question.
20:09When you're talking with a customer, okay, if your focus is making money, you want to
20:14be successful, you want to close a lot of loans, you want to succeed, your focus isn't
20:18necessarily just, you know, really the customer.
20:20Some people are wired that way, you're not wired that way.
20:22You're more about being successful in business.
20:24I want to ask you this question.
20:27I want you to flip for a minute and think like a customer and don't think like a loan
20:31officer.
20:32Just do that for me for a minute.
20:33You're a consumer yourself.
20:34You've gotten a mortgage yourself.
20:36You know what it feels like to be on the other end of the phone.
20:38What would you want?
20:40How would you want to be interacted with?
20:42What would you want people to know about you, ask about you?
20:46How would you want them to respond to things?
20:50And what would it take for you to want to work with that person on the other end of
20:55the phone?
20:56And it never ceases to amaze me how when you flip that script with them and make them
21:03think about, because the problem is we get in these routines, right?
21:07We're a loan officer.
21:08We've been doing it for years and after a while, it's no longer human beings.
21:11It's just another loan number.
21:12It's another transaction.
21:14It's another deal.
21:15That's normal.
21:16That's human behavior.
21:17That doesn't make you bad.
21:18That just makes you human.
21:20But if you can flip this script and think for a minute about, okay, this is me.
21:25This is me and my wife.
21:27This is my family.
21:28We're making this major decision, the biggest decision of our lifetime financially.
21:33What am I looking for?
21:34All of a sudden, they start to articulate things they don't even do in their own conversations.
21:40They wouldn't say, well, I just want the lowest rate out there.
21:42They're not going to say that because here's the fact of the matter.
21:45And I love doing this.
21:46When loan officers say, hey, I get borrowers say to me, I'm looking for the lowest rate.
21:49I go, what do you say to them?
21:50They go, I don't know what to say.
21:52I go, here's all you say.
21:53Do you mean the lowest in the world?
21:56Because that's really what you're talking about.
21:58Because there's only one lowest in the whole world.
22:01Only one.
22:02And there's over 6,000 lenders.
22:03So that's not even possible.
22:05Like finding the lowest rate is nearly impossible.
22:08You just get lucky if you get it.
22:10What they're looking for is way more than that.
22:12And what you'd be looking for is way more than that.
22:14You're looking for certain things to be satisfied for your family and for your security and for
22:21your life.
22:22So if you can think in the context of, if it was me, how would I want to be treated?
22:27And then parlay that back to, all right, now how do I put that into the strategy of how
22:32I approach customers?
22:34Here's what's going to happen.
22:36You're going to please a whole lot more customers.
22:38And ultimately, the goal that you had of making more money is going to be realized instantly.
22:44You don't have to force it anymore.
22:46Let me ask you this.
22:48So we talked about, and we're going to continue talking about the relationship between the
22:55LO and the customer.
22:58But I'm curious about the feedback that you've gotten from all the LOs that you've been working
23:03with, specifically over the past couple of years, and how technology has influenced the
23:12customer.
23:12And their, perhaps, reticence to their change and their expectations for communication.
23:21How has that affected the relationship on the LO side?
23:25It's affected it immensely.
23:26So let's talk for a minute about the online application link and the online application.
23:33Very common thing used in the marketplace today.
23:36Now, do I believe that an online application is a good tool?
23:40Absolutely.
23:41It creates uniformity.
23:43It creates an easy process for the customer.
23:46It also, most importantly, creates an opportunity for them to get us their income documentation
23:51and things we need to close a loan much easier.
23:53So you want to utilize an online application.
23:56Here's the problem with this.
23:57OK?
23:58The problem is that this is an easier way to sell.
24:01I could just shoot you a link, Zeb, let you fill it out on your own, let you do all the
24:06work while I go do whatever I'm doing, and then you send me that link.
24:09And when I get that link, then I'm going to go ahead and call you and give you an offer.
24:12Here's the problem in that whole scenario.
24:15There's a couple of problems.
24:16First off, there's four major drop points on every online application.
24:20Number one is the birth date.
24:22Number two is the social security number.
24:24How many times you've been on the phone with a customer and ask for their social and they
24:27seize up on you?
24:28Wait, why do you need that?
24:29Well, if you're not there, they're going to seize up with you not there.
24:32They're just going to end the application and jump off and go do something else.
24:38The third one is the permission to pull credit.
24:40This is a big one, because customers all the time, when you say, OK, I'm going to need
24:45to pull your credit report, oh, wait, I don't want my credit score to go up 30 points.
24:48It's not going to go up 30 points.
24:50But you can't explain that to them if you're an online link.
24:53So what happens is it creates that challenge.
24:55And the last one is the request of income documentation.
25:00A lot of people don't want to do that on a link.
25:02If you are doing it right and you're sending them the link and staying on the phone, then
25:08with them to guide them through the process, answer their questions, learn more about what
25:12they're trying to do while they're filling out these basic things that they can do so
25:16easy while they're talking to you.
25:18The beauty is when they get to those points, you can overcome those concerns, keep them
25:24on the phone and not lose that deal.
25:27I've seen lenders where they've had 60% drop off on their online applications.
25:31But the loan officers who are the top producers don't do that.
25:34And they get an 80% success rate versus a 40% success rate.
25:39That's twice the production.
25:40So the technology thing, the problem for the originator today, Zeb, is it makes your life
25:46super easy.
25:47Who doesn't want to do it easier and spend less time?
25:50But it's not going to make you more money.
25:52I can guarantee you that because the loan officers that I'm working with all over the
25:56nation who are crushing it, they've learned how to build a high tech, high touch approach
26:03where they're both building relationship and also using their technology side by side
26:09to create that powerful combination where, yes, they're creating efficiencies.
26:14Yes, they're creating uniformity.
26:16Yes, they're creating ease for the borrower, but they're also still getting that personal
26:22touch.
26:22And there's one more piece to this.
26:24In today's market of 7% rates, you got to educate people.
26:27You got to answer the question, why would I buy at 7%?
26:30Why don't I wait till it goes down to 5.5%?
26:32Somebody's got to answer that question.
26:33There's nobody better to do it than the originator.
26:35The online application will not answer that question for a borrower, and you'll lose them
26:40as a result of it.
26:41So it's really merging the two that is the real sweet spot of the marketplace today.
26:47Do you find people that are educating their customers right now or potential homebuyers,
26:54are they having success with doing general education for general leads and for the referral
27:00partners, or is it more customer specific?
27:05This customer A, you have this particular problem.
27:08This is why you're interested.
27:09Is this specifically or?
27:13It's both of those.
27:14So I'm working with a lot of loan officers that I'm teaching them to do, for example,
27:19first-time buyer programs.
27:20I think first-time buyers represented 54% of the entire purchase market last year.
27:24And with those 168 million Gen Y, Gen Z people we talked about at the beginning of this,
27:29that's going to continue.
27:30That trend is going to continue.
27:31So educational seminars, educational webinars geared towards consumers to help them understand
27:37things like down payment and LTV and DTI, and how to look for a home properly and how
27:43to work with a realtor.
27:44These are very fundamentally powerful things to do.
27:47But you also have to educate the borrower at the point of sale on why is it they should
27:52move today.
27:53And let me give you the number one reason.
27:55When somebody says to you today, you know what, I'm going to wait till rates go down.
28:00Your response as a loan officer should be, oh, that'd be the worst thing you can do.
28:04And when they go, why would that be the worst thing I'm going to do?
28:06Well, let's think about that.
28:08So what you're saying is the best time to buy is when the rates are the lowest.
28:11Is that right?
28:12Yes.
28:12All right.
28:13So when was the best time to buy then?
28:142021?
28:15Because that's when rates were the lowest.
28:16Yes.
28:17All right.
28:17Let's go back to 2021.
28:19That was when there was bidding wars where properties were being sold for 100,000 over
28:22asking price.
28:24That's when 150 people were bidding for the same property within five minutes of the
28:28MLS listing.
28:29That's when seller concessions didn't exist.
28:31That's when we were waiving all of our contingencies.
28:34That was not the best time to buy.
28:35That was the worst time to buy.
28:37The best time to buy is when you got less competition.
28:39That's today.
28:40Today, you've got less competition.
28:42Today, you've got more inventory.
28:44Today, you can actually get in a house.
28:45And when rates drop in a year or two, which they always do, eventually, we'll bring you
28:50in and refinance you at a lower rate.
28:52We'll get you in a home you can afford today and refinance you when rates go down.
28:55You get the best of all worlds.
28:57Speaking of the rates dropping, I was moved into a corporate role.
29:08I know a lot of originators in the COVID refi boom that ignored their purchase business.
29:16I mean, I know this happened everywhere, right?
29:18Ignore the purchase business.
29:20And then they lost so many of their realtor relationships because they were just focusing
29:25on the refis.
29:27And whenever rates started to kick back up, the realtors had really kind of already moved
29:31on.
29:33Moving forward, whenever rates inevitably, sooner, hopefully, rather than later, whenever
29:38they inevitably do drop, we're encouraging originators to up this level of communication
29:47kind of across the board.
29:50I know that we've kind of had many refi booms, right?
29:53But whenever there is inevitably a big refi boom, again, how do you recommend?
29:58Because people do only have so much time in the day and only so many, so many words in
30:05them till they're just done.
30:09How do you recommend that they, or what kind of system do you recommend for an LO to balance
30:16those relationships and either that FaceTime or that phone time, especially if this is
30:21something that is going to be a stretch for them?
30:24Yeah, excellent question.
30:25So let me first refer back to what you said.
30:28I call that the flip-flop effect.
30:30The flip-flop effect is where when refis are hot, we stop talking to our realtors.
30:36Then when refis go away and purchase gets hot, we stop talking to our customers.
30:41It's a flip-flop.
30:42We always neglect the one that isn't the point of focus.
30:46That's a massive mistake you can't make.
30:48So let's talk about how do you manage your time effectively so you can balance both throughout
30:54your career?
30:54Because that's what top producers do.
30:56Two words, time-blocking, time-blocking.
30:59You've got to time-block.
31:01It's amazing to me.
31:02Zeb, you would not believe if you spent a week traveling with me and saw all the people
31:08that I talk to and all the conversations I have, how many loan officers I talk to that
31:12are reactive, not proactive.
31:14You know how they start their day?
31:16They check their email.
31:17They check their voicemail.
31:19That is the worst thing you can possibly do.
31:21What I tell loan officers is do not check your email or voicemail until at least 10
31:25o'clock, preferably 11 o'clock.
31:27What I want you to start your day with is sales.
31:30Time-block out your mornings.
31:31That's your hot sales time.
31:33That's when customers are most available.
31:35Begin your day with a positive process.
31:38And that means you're coming in the morning, you prioritize your opportunities, whatever
31:43leads, whatever referrals you've got, you prioritize them from the best to the worst,
31:47and you start at the top and you start calling those people.
31:50You call your database 30 minutes every day of your past customers.
31:53Make sure you hit them once a quarter.
31:56If you have 3,000 people in your database, which most people don't have that many, in
32:01a 60-day period, which is one quarter, that literally means you just got to call 50 a
32:06day.
32:07Well, you're only going to catch 10% of them live.
32:10The other 90%, you're going to leave a message.
32:12You're not going to spend more than 25 to 30 minutes doing that, but you're rotating
32:17your database every quarter by doing that.
32:19You're going to pick up crazy amounts of business from that, and then spend another 30 minutes
32:24prospecting for realtor partners, and financial planner partners, and builder partners, and
32:29other referral partners.
32:31Do those things, call back your leads first thing in the morning you got from the prior
32:36day, and then when you're done, now go into those emails.
32:39Now go into those voicemails, because here's the deal.
32:42Here's how I always say it.
32:43There ain't nothing good in there.
32:45When you open that email up, it's going to be problems.
32:48And what happens is you start your day spinning out of control.
32:53You're now reacting to problems.
32:55They take way longer than you thought they would.
32:58They kill your attitude and your momentum.
33:01By the time you actually get to the point you think you want to sell, you're too tired
33:05and frustrated to do it.
33:06And that's what I see happen all the time.
33:08It's a process of just planning your day well.
33:13That's something I wanted to, you mentioned this a couple of times.
33:19You've mentioned this, I don't know, half a dozen times throughout this.
33:23The success, belief, the positivity.
33:30Myself, my wife and my family, my friends, they joke with me about, I say that I'm a
33:35realist.
33:36If you know me very well, you might prod me saying that I might be a pessimist.
33:40I believe that I'm a realist.
33:41I got it from my dad.
33:43But man, I mean, first of all, I know every originator that I know, they are just feeling
33:49beat up right now and have been feeling beat up for a while.
33:52And just not the naturally the most, you know, upbeat, sunny, you know, and this, how do
34:04you recommend people stay right now or LO stay positive and secure this belief that
34:12the belief in the market and the belief in, you know, in future success in themselves?
34:19How do they turn that or how would someone turn that around?
34:22Yeah, I call that pivoting.
34:24Pivoting means I'm going to take every obstacle and look for the opportunity, okay?
34:29And what that simply means is, look, I'm a realist also.
34:33But here's the funny thing about being a quote-unquote realist, is some people will
34:37excuse their pessimism by calling themselves a realist, okay?
34:41I feel exposed right now.
34:43That's okay, I'm not trying to expose you.
34:46A lot of us are guilty of that.
34:47There's days I'm guilty of that too, okay?
34:49We're all guilty of that at times.
34:51Here's what I've learned.
34:52If I've learned nothing else in 42 years, here's the one thing that I've learned, okay?
34:57We labeled this discussion today mindset and methodology.
35:01Which one did we put first?
35:03Mindset.
35:04Mindset.
35:06Your mindset is way more important than your methodology.
35:09Because at the end of the day, if you got the right methods but you got a stinking attitude,
35:13you got stinking thinking, nobody's buying from you.
35:16Nobody wants to talk to you.
35:17Nobody wants to be around you.
35:19So, I learned early in my career, you know what?
35:22I can be a realist all day long and look and see the challenges and see the problems and
35:26see the obstacles.
35:28But then I have to make a choice.
35:30Am I going to live in those or I'm going to pivot myself and say, okay, so that's the
35:35problem.
35:36How do we solve it?
35:38What's the solution to the problem?
35:40What's the other side of it?
35:41You know, I used to love Paul Harvey.
35:42Remember Paul Harvey?
35:44Yeah, the rest of the story.
35:45I used to love his show.
35:47Because he'd always tell these stories like, oh, that's terrible.
35:49I go, no, for the rest of the story.
35:51And here came this just glorious thing that popped in all of a sudden.
35:55I'm like, oh, that's awesome.
35:56Maybe listening to Paul Harvey changed my mindset from realist to optimist.
36:00But what I've learned is, if we go around and all we're thinking about and all we're
36:05focusing on is the negative aspects of the business, which then, you know, a lot of times
36:10you're going to hear in the major media news, you're going to hear about all the bad stuff
36:13because that's what makes the news.
36:15If you live in that and you don't dig a little deeper and go, okay, so there's an inventory
36:19issue, but let's not think about how that affects me and my marketplace.
36:22And what could I do to solve that?
36:24How could I work against?
36:25Oh, I could expand my network.
36:27When you start thinking in a pivoting mindset, what happens is you start to turn that realism
36:33into optimism very quickly because you're looking for opportunities.
36:37And I ask people this all the time.
36:38I say, you know, all right, so you lost that deal.
36:41Is your career over?
36:42Well, no.
36:43Okay, you lost that realtor.
36:44Is your career over?
36:45No.
36:46Okay, market's 7%.
36:47Are people still going to buy?
36:48Yes.
36:49So does that mean you can still succeed?
36:50Yes.
36:51So quit worrying about the 7% rates.
36:53Quit worrying about the lost deal and quit worrying about the realtor.
36:55Go get another deal from another realtor.
36:58Go build a bigger network.
36:59And you know what?
37:00Go sell 7% because the borrower obviously thinks 7% is okay because they applied.
37:05They see the same rates you do.
37:07So just go do it.
37:09And it's amazing how many people are able to pivot and succeed with that simple mindset.
37:15Have you seen that?
37:18Because the reason that I bring that up is because I've received feedback.
37:22You know, a lot of it, I moved here to HousingWire from a mortgage company
37:28steeped in the mortgage industry.
37:29Now I'm a little bit semi-tied to it.
37:33But I'm talking to people kind of outside the industry that have gone to mortgage conferences
37:40throughout the past year or two.
37:42And that's been the feedback that I've received over the past couple of months.
37:46I've had some executives that have gone to conferences and have been out.
37:50The vibe was off there.
37:53I was surprised at how kind of glum it was.
37:58And I've received that feedback multiple times over the past year or so.
38:02So I was curious as to your take on that and if you've seen the same vibe shift, I guess.
38:11Yeah, so this is a great conversation and a great point you're bringing up here, Zeb,
38:14because I speak at a lot of conferences and I also train a lot of leaders.
38:17I don't just train loan officers.
38:18I train leaders all over the country from C-level executives down to middle-level
38:22sales managers and everything in between.
38:24And here's the deal.
38:26I am finding today in the last three years, I don't know what's happened in the last three
38:30years.
38:31I think it's partially because 2020 and 2021 were so easy and so good.
38:36It was rain and money for two years that people got so spoiled that when it shifted
38:41so quickly, I mean, that was a meteoric rise in rates in a short period of time in 2022.
38:47And I think it blew people so far out of the water that they never recovered.
38:52I've seen in the last three years, a lot of loan officers who have not recovered.
38:55They cannot get their mind right.
38:58I also see this with leaders.
39:00And what I say to leaders all the time is, look, how can you expect your people to get
39:04their mind right when yours isn't?
39:06We all talk about leadership by example.
39:08Let's live that.
39:09Let's make sure that we are speaking to our people.
39:12We're not saying to them, well, you know, I know rates are tough out there, but the
39:16minute you said, I know rates are tough out there and put a but at the end, you just gave
39:21every one of your loan officers a reason why they shouldn't succeed.
39:24That's coming from the top of the organization.
39:26What you need to say is, guys, 4.25 million people are going to buy a home this year.
39:31We're going to get our market share of that.
39:33We're going to do a better job than anybody else.
39:35We're going to give a better experience.
39:37We're going to provide better options.
39:39We're going to give the customer better things than anybody else.
39:42And we're going to get the lion's share of that business.
39:44Somebody's going to win it.
39:45It might as well be us.
39:46We don't care about the rates because the rates are what the rates are.
39:49People are buying anyway.
39:51We're going to make sure we show up and we're going to provide the best experience, the
39:55best loan program, the best advice, and the best relationship they've ever seen.
40:01Those leaders are crushing it, absolutely crushing it.
40:05And I've got a lot of leaders I work with all over the country that are like that today.
40:09But I see a lot of them at conferences that they're just, they're really down.
40:14And what I would say to you as leaders is, you got to change that today.
40:20You got to realize this.
40:21Look, we've seen high rates before and we made it through just fine.
40:24I started in 1983.
40:25I was selling 17.5% rates for seven years.
40:28It wasn't easy.
40:29But I built sales forces that did crazy numbers because we didn't focus on that.
40:34We focused on need and opportunity.
40:37That's where the focus has to be.
40:40Right.
40:40Well, and, you know, we talked a lot about this with the customer, the relationship with
40:45the customers.
40:46But one of the things, and you're kind of turning things around and, you know, engaging
40:52or re-engaging with these deeper relationships, part of this is something that you'd mentioned
40:57earlier is you're expanding your network or your referral network.
41:04And, you know, I would assume that that requires a deeper investment, you know, of time or
41:11a commitment into a relationship.
41:15And how do you, how do you recommend right now?
41:19Because, again, that's another relationship or another area in which relationships kind
41:27of are hijacked by technology and supplanted by, you know, text messages and text stacks
41:35as opposed to, you know, phone calls or having lunch and like old school relationships, right?
41:42So how do you recommend people expand their network now?
41:46Yeah.
41:47So this is where technology becomes your best friend.
41:50You know, the key to building a bigger network is first, you got to do your homework.
41:55You got to get a list.
41:57If you're going after realtors, let's just use that for an example, because that's the
41:59most common referral source that we see in the mortgage business.
42:02If I want to go after realtors in my marketplace, the very first thing I'm gonna do is get a
42:05list of all the realtors in my marketplace.
42:07And I'm going to go to that first 100 on that list, the top 100 who have produced in the
42:12last six months.
42:13I want to look at only a six-month window.
42:15I want to know they're producing in this marketplace before I even call on them.
42:19Once I've established that, then what I'm going to do is I'm going to start a 10-day
42:24social media blitz with them.
42:26I'm not going to pick up the phone and call them because that's foreign to most people
42:29today.
42:30They're not going to even take your call.
42:31What you're going to do is you're going to go on and you're going to start liking their
42:34pages and you're going to start following their pages and you're going to start making
42:39some comments on some of their posts and reshare some of their posts.
42:43They're going to see the activity happening and see your name and wonder, who's this originator
42:48who's sharing my posts and making these likes and following my stuff.
42:54So by the time 10 days has passed, now you pick up the phone.
42:57It's an easy call.
42:59Hey, Zeb, it's Dale Vermillion.
43:01You probably saw my name.
43:02I've been following you on social media.
43:03And the reason I'm following you is because I love what you're doing.
43:05You're making a big impact in our community.
43:07I love the homes you're putting up and love to talk to you.
43:11Like to meet within just for 15 minutes, maybe over a cup of coffee and talk a little
43:14bit about maybe how I can help you grow your business to the next level.
43:17Would that be okay?
43:19You're going to say yes.
43:20You feel obliged to say yes because I've been sharing posts.
43:24I've been promoting your business.
43:25I've been doing the things I need to do.
43:27Technology worked to my benefit in that case.
43:29But now here's the key.
43:32When I meet you, I need to get to know how do you like to be interacted with.
43:36Marshall Right.
43:38I need to know, are you more of a conversational guy like I am?
43:42Or are you more of a just text me and don't ever call me kind of guy?
43:45And if that's the case, I'm going to meet you where you need to be met.
43:49Because I've had the chance to now get to know you.
43:53I've established relationship.
43:55And now you can kind of lay out the cards as to how this partnership ought to look.
44:00Doesn't mean I'm not still going to call you once a month.
44:03Doesn't mean I'm still not going to call you.
44:04I'm saying, hey, let's go grab lunch once in a while.
44:07Doesn't mean I'm not going to do events or open houses with you because I am.
44:11I'm going to support your business in every way that I can.
44:14And if you have an event that you're doing, I'm going to show up that event.
44:17I'm going to support you at that event.
44:19And that's going to mean the world to you as my partner.
44:22This is what the simplicity of building a network is today with social media and technology.
44:27Is we can use it to our benefit to build the right relationships
44:31and build them the way people want them built.
44:34Yeah, that was actually one of my early with any referral partner.
44:38That was always one of my early conversations.
44:40Early questions was a direct question of, you know, what is good?
44:43What is good communication?
44:44What does that look like to you?
44:46You know, and that a lot, actually, a lot of times I would tell me if
44:51tell me whether or not there was going to be a good relationship at all.
44:55Oh, and that's a good point because they might say, well,
44:56you better call me within one minute.
44:57Well, that's not always going to be possible.
44:59So this isn't going to work out well.
45:01Yeah, you're right.
45:03Okay.
45:05And so the what about the so you mentioned time blocking and the ideally after
45:13ideally afternoons are spent in the title office closing loans and taking pictures.
45:19Right.
45:19But mornings know for your for your calls.
45:24You're after that you answer your emails and do your origination work.
45:28And then in the afternoons where if you're not if you're not closing loans and you know,
45:32if you're not at the title office, how do you spend your afternoons?
45:35Be out there in the community.
45:37Be meeting with realtors.
45:38Be doing open houses.
45:39Be doing events.
45:41Be involved and engaged in activities.
45:43Go to a chamber of commerce meeting.
45:45Get involved in a BNI group.
45:47There's just so many things that you can do.
45:49The key is, is network, network and network some more.
45:53Get with as many people as you can on a daily basis.
45:55Get in your community so people know who you are.
46:00They know what you're made of.
46:02Get to the point where they know you by name.
46:04You know, I call this the Cheers approach to the mortgage business, okay?
46:08Where everybody knows your name.
46:10You want to be Norm.
46:11When you walk into a place everybody, Norm!
46:14That's what it should be.
46:15Those kinds of loan officers, it's it's mind-blowing to me.
46:18You know, I just had Sean Panosian on my Batting 1000 podcast.
46:22Number one loan officer in the country.
46:24Had another guy, Hunter Strong, who does 100 loans, almost 100 loans a month.
46:28Carol Whitman does 800 loans a year in a consumer direct environment.
46:32These are all guests that I've had on my podcast.
46:34Every one of them said the same thing.
46:36When I said, what's the number one thing that's most important?
46:38They said, relationship, relationship.
46:41Be out there.
46:42Be active.
46:43Let everybody know what you do.
46:44Let everybody know who you are.
46:46These are the kind of things that make a difference.
46:49These are the kind of things you want to focus on.
46:51It's better, it's far better to be known than to be known at.
46:54So I know that this kind of persists in the industry where originators will be.
47:03And there's a big push to market yourself in the community
47:07or market yourself in general through education, which is fantastic.
47:11But to be known as the subject matter expert, right?
47:14So go out in the community, do your presentations or do virtual events, which is great.
47:21But it's far better to be just known than it is to be known as the subject matter expert guy, right?
47:29It's good to be known as the mortgage guy, but it's far better for people to know you.
47:33Yeah.
47:33I'll share a great story with you.
47:34So I'm in Kalamazoo, Michigan a couple of years ago, working with a client of mine
47:39who I've been a client for a long year and they wanted me to visit this one branch.
47:42So I go in and I sit down and I'm talking to the manager and I said,
47:46hey, I see that room you got in the back.
47:47He had a big conference room.
47:48I said, it's empty.
47:49He said, yeah, well, you know, COVID work from home, you know,
47:51it's just kind of an empty space.
47:53I use it for storage.
47:54I go, okay, here's what we're going to do.
47:56You're going to remodel that thing.
47:57You're going to make it really nice.
47:58That's going to be your realtor room.
48:00And we're going to start a monthly event where you invite all your realtors at the end of the month
48:03for an award ceremony.
48:05It's going to be a lunch and learn.
48:06They're going to learn something while they're there,
48:08but you're also going to have an award ceremony for them every month.
48:11And you're going to wear all kinds of things, not just performance and production,
48:14but best attitude, best charitable giver, best in the community.
48:19You know, all of these different, you'd make up all kinds of things.
48:21So everybody, you know, comes in there and they feel like they could win something.
48:25And you're going to build your network that way.
48:28He calls me about nine months after my visit and says, you're not going to believe this.
48:32I said, what?
48:32He said, remember that advice you gave me about making that room into a realtor room?
48:35I said, yeah.
48:36He goes, I got about 120 realtors coming every month.
48:40This guy's business quadrupled in one year.
48:43By something as simple as just having a place people can come to, to learn,
48:49to talk to each other, to share ideas, to win a little award, to be part of a raffle.
48:56It's amazing how simple it is if you just make it simple.
48:58Mm-hmm.
49:01What's your, I know we're kind of winding down here and we covered,
49:06actually kind of allocated the right amount of time for these groups.
49:12But I did want to touch on one other group with better communication and
49:18focusing on the relationship.
49:19What about with your own team?
49:22With your ops, you know, collaborating and getting a better relationship with your ops team.
49:27What are you seeing right now that are challenges with LOs beyond the classic challenges?
49:35And what are ways that LOs can overcome those challenges or make things better with their own
49:41team?
49:41Great question.
49:43So let me give you a laundry list here.
49:44Number one, start with appreciation.
49:47Start with appreciation.
49:48When's the last time you told your processor or your LOA that you really appreciated them,
49:53really cared about them, really, really are thankful for all the work that they do?
49:58When's the last time you did that?
50:00I talked to loan officers that I've asked that question.
50:03Like, I can't remember the last time I did that.
50:04I'm like, well, that's your first problem right there.
50:06You got to build relationship.
50:07And the best way to do that, start with gratefulness.
50:09When you're grateful to somebody, they're drawn to you.
50:12Now you can build relationships.
50:14So second step is build a relationship with them.
50:16Get to know them.
50:16Understand their goals.
50:18Understand how they tick.
50:19Understand how they communicate.
50:21Understand what they're looking for.
50:23And then this is really key, okay?
50:27Quit emailing and texting all the time.
50:30Have a conversation.
50:31Pick up a phone if there's a problem or walk over to their desk if there's a problem.
50:35And let's just work it out.
50:37I can't tell you how many times I've looked at emails that have 17 threads over a three-day
50:41period.
50:42We still haven't solved the problem.
50:44Now everybody's minds are blown up.
50:46They're all mad at each other.
50:47And it's getting snarky really quick.
50:49And if we'd have just picked up the phone at the beginning and had a four-minute conversation,
50:54we'd have solved the problem and been done with it and been on our way.
50:57So pick up the phone.
50:58Go ahead.
50:59Anybody that's, I was going to say, anybody that is under 40 years old that's listening
51:02to this is rolling.
51:03It's true, though, because I'm the same way.
51:05I 100% will, I pick up the phone and call every time.
51:10But anybody that's under 40 years old is going to be calling us old men for saying that.
51:15But it's true.
51:15It's so much better.
51:16It works.
51:17It's true.
51:17Yeah.
51:17So let me address this because look, I own four, you know, millennials.
51:24I know all about how they think.
51:25I get it.
51:26But here's the deal.
51:27There is so much loss of communication in texting and emailing.
51:32I look at it all the time where people send an email.
51:34It seems pretty clear to me, but I ask four different people, tell me what that says.
51:38And all four of them give me a different answer.
51:40When you talk to somebody, that doesn't happen because you go, wait,
51:44is this what you're asking me to do?
51:46No, no, no, no, no, that's not.
51:47I'm sorry.
51:48Here's what I meant.
51:49Clarification happens much better in a conversation than it's ever going to happen in a text or
51:54an email.
51:55It's not that you don't ever use text or email.
51:57It's that when it's important, have a conversation.
52:01Here was a simple thing I used to do.
52:02All of my teams, I have what was called the three sentence email.
52:06Okay.
52:06So for internal communications, you only got three sentences.
52:09Tell me what you want.
52:10Tell me why you want it.
52:11Tell me when you need it.
52:13If it takes more than three sentences, you better call me because that shouldn't be an
52:17email anymore.
52:18That means we've got to go deeper with something.
52:21And here's the last thing.
52:22Involve your team with your partners.
52:25What I love is loan officers who when they meet a new referral partner, they get a call
52:31with their team to also meet the referral partner.
52:34Very rare by the way.
52:36I used to do that all the time.
52:38That's a great way where your team feels valued because you're actually getting them to know
52:43the partners.
52:44And when they get to know your partners, now they take a personal interest in doing a better
52:48job.
52:49They'll actually do a better job for you at the end of the day.
52:51Yeah.
52:53That's really a great idea.
52:56Okay.
52:56So I got time for one, just one question.
53:00Actually, I wanted to take some time for more, but this is all we got.
53:04Dale, can you give our audience, if there were three things that an LO could put into
53:12place immediately to improve their relationships and improve their business right now, what
53:17would those three things be?
53:18The number one, start planning your days like we talked about earlier.
53:21Okay.
53:21Set your mornings in place the first two hours, protect them, and focus on sales activities.
53:28Not responding to things, not problems.
53:31Focus on sale activities every morning.
53:34Make sure you're calling your database.
53:35Make sure you're prospecting.
53:37That's number one.
53:39Number two, learn best practices.
53:42Make sure that you are talking to other loan officers and watching things like this.
53:47You know, this session we're having today where you can learn what are the best people
53:51doing so that you can sort of adapt and adopt those things into the way you do that, which
53:55means you have to have a teachable spirit, by the way, but you got to be willing to change.
53:59You know, the old saying, if you do what you've always done, you're going to get what
54:02Toby's got.
54:02Sure.
54:03That's not a true statement.
54:04That's a false statement.
54:06You do not get what you always got in a changing market.
54:09And we're in a major changing market.
54:11You'll only get what you've always got in a market that's unchanging, which never happens
54:15in the mortgage business.
54:16So here's what I know.
54:17If you do what the best do, you get the best get.
54:20That's a do.
54:20And number three, be more relational.
54:23Just invest in people.
54:26I'll give this great tip to everybody.
54:27All right.
54:28If you want to close 15 loans a month, you know how you do it?
54:32One sale a day.
54:33That's it.
54:33One sale a day.
54:35If you can get one customer a day to take an application, give you their documentation
54:39and agree to move forward on a purchase or a refi, you're putting 21 deals in your pipeline.
54:45We traditionally close 70 to 75% of those in the nation.
54:49That's 15 to 17 loans closed guaranteed.
54:52So slow down, build more relationship with your customers, win them over.
54:58Don't just throw a bunch of offers out and see what sticks because it won't in a 7% market.
55:04If you'll invest deeper and spend a little more time, you don't need a lot of transactions
55:10per day to be super successful at the end of the month.
55:14Excellent.
55:15Excellent.
55:15Dale, this is an honor for me, actually.
55:18I've been in the industry for a while, following you for a while.
55:20So I really appreciate you taking the time to speak with me.
55:22And I believe our audience got a ton of value out of this.
55:26So I can't thank you and Jake both enough.
55:29Well, I sure hope so.
55:30And it's an honor for me.
55:31It's an honor for me, Zeb, to get to work with you and to be a partner with HousingWire.
55:36Love this organization.
55:37You guys do an incredible job.
55:38Thank you for all that you guys do in the industry to make it a better industry.
55:42We really appreciate you guys.