The Supreme Court on Tuesday lashed out at YouTuber Ranveer Allahbadia while hearing his plea in connection with multiple FIRs filed against him over the obscene joke on India's Got Latent show.
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00:00Good evening and welcome, you're watching The News Track, I'm Rahul Kamil.
00:07Should content on YouTube be moderated?
00:12Should it be regulated?
00:14The Supreme Court certainly seems to think so.
00:17Many content creators though think this is just the government trying to come in from
00:21the back door and clamp down their freedom of speech.
00:25So should YouTube content be regulated?
00:28That's my top focus on the news.
00:58Let me take you through the headlines I'm tracking tonight.
01:21Politics over the Mahakumbh escalates, Mamata Banerjee calls it the Mithyukumbh or congregation
01:26of death, Bengal BJP leaders protest against Mamata's callous comments, BJP revelations,
01:36big revelations in the Delhi station stampede case, report reveals there was a 40 minute
01:41delay in the distress call sent to the fire department.
01:47Politics erupts over the appointment of the new poll panel chief Gyanesh Kumar, Rahul
01:51Gandhi questions the selection panel, says it violates the Supreme Court's order, Supreme
01:56Court to hear plea against naming the CEC tomorrow.
02:02Halinga University unrest peaks over Nepal student suicide, ex-boyfriend arrested, college
02:07apologises for harassing Nepali students who protested against the death.
02:13Days after PM Modi's meet with Elon Musk, Tesla boasts new job openings in India, will
02:18Teslas be driving into India soon?
02:26The Delhi top court today hit a pause button on popular YouTuber Beer Biceps aka Ranveer
02:32Alabadia's content.
02:35Supreme Court has asked him and comedian Sameh Rana to stop making videos for now.
02:41While the court granted relief to Alabadia from arrest, it had some scathing observations
02:45on Alabadia and his vulgar joke that has kicked up a storm.
03:16The apex court said that the podcaster had perversion and dirt in mind which he puked
03:29on the show.
03:30Tearing into Alabadia, the Supreme Court said, parents everywhere would be ashamed by such
03:36crass comments.
03:57And in a major blow, Supreme Court also put a pause on his podcast show Beer Biceps until
04:03further notice.
04:06Despite the scathing remarks, the top court did offer him some relief after it said no
04:11to new police cases could be filed against him on this matter.
04:16Police in Maharashtra, Rajasthan and Assam were also barred from arresting Beer Biceps.
04:22Maharashtra Chief Minister Devendra Fadnavis vowed to take action if anyone crossed the
04:27limit in vulgarity.
04:49Will top court crack down mean trouble for YouTubers delving into dark comedy?
04:55Nalini Sharma and Srishti Ojha in New Delhi, Bureau Report, India Today.
05:02While hearing Ranveer Alabadia's plea, the Supreme Court also called on the Centre to
05:07regulate obscene content on YouTube should there be clearly defined restrictions.
05:12The Modi government has been working on amending the existing media laws and the proposed Broadcast
05:17Bill lays a framework for YouTube content regulation as well.
05:21So should the content regulation that extends to television be extended into digital, social
05:27and YouTube too?
05:35The India's Got Latent controversy has opened a Pandora's box that will impact how content
05:41is created and consumed in India.
05:44While granting relief to Ranveer Alabadia against arrest, the Supreme Court called on
05:51the Centre to consider regulating obscene content on YouTube and other social media
05:56platforms.
05:58The top court observed that YouTubers are misusing the lack of regulation.
06:02The Supreme Court said, we would be very happy if the government does something on its own
06:08to regulate online content.
06:10It has also said that it would not allow such a vacuum and barren area to persist.
06:18YouTube actively removes videos that violate its community guidelines.
06:22In 2023, over 2.25 million videos were removed in India for various violations, making it
06:30the highest number globally during that period.
06:33The Indian government has been working on amending existing media laws to exert more
06:39control over digital content.
06:41The latest version of the Broadcast Bill includes compliance requirements for YouTubers and
06:47other digital content creators.
06:50The proposed regulations say that creators would need to set up a content evaluation
06:55committee to review their content before publication.
06:59This committee would consist of experts who would evaluate content for compliance with
07:04community standards.
07:06Additionally, creators could face criminal liability if they fail to comply with the
07:11new regulations.
07:14Creators will need to navigate a complex landscape going forward, balancing free speech
07:21and accountability in the digital age.
07:24With Nalini Sharma and Srishti Ojha, in New Delhi, Euro Report, India Today.
07:34Should YouTube content be regulated?
07:37Many would argue that against excessive vulgarity, profanity, there should be curbs.
07:42But many content creators also worry whether this is just a way for the government to try
07:47and find a backdoor entry into regulating political content as well, which oftentimes
07:54the government may not like.
07:55So how do we treat this sensibly with maturity and yet don't allow excessive profanity and
08:02vulgarity to proliferate the internet and to corrupt young minds?
08:06Joining us to talk about this, one of the country's top constitutional experts, senior
08:09advocate in the Supreme Court, and over the next several minutes, I'll be joined by experts
08:13cutting across different spheres, different inclinations in terms of their political and
08:19judicial views.
08:20So I want to welcome R. M. Asundaram first.
08:22Thank you very much, Mr. Sundaram, for joining us.
08:25Should content on YouTube be regulated?
08:28It's a matter of a big debate.
08:29You're seeing what's playing out.
08:31The Supreme Court clearly seems to think there is a case for YouTube content to be moderated
08:36and regulated.
08:37Do you agree, R. M. Asundaram?
08:39Look, first of all, let's take it in perspective.
08:42Let's take in perspective what the Supreme Court has done.
08:45It's pure and simple.
08:47A person who makes a comment and becomes a public figure and does things in public can
08:54either get accolades or brick bats for what he has said.
08:59Now, he said what he did, which I may personally feel is absolutely prudent, was absolutely
09:06objectionable.
09:07And I found it something which I would have wished something like this had not been said.
09:14Having said so, the answer, of course, was that a person like me would come out and criticize
09:21what he has done.
09:22Instead, there are various charges framed against him, many of which, according to me,
09:28do not apply, except for one, which is under 294 of the erstwhile act, which is any utterance
09:35of words which can be considered obscene.
09:38Unfortunately, obscenity itself is a very subjective thing.
09:41We don't know what is obscene, what is not.
09:44And it's a bit of a subjective thing, although in some sections they try to give a deeming
09:50provision.
09:51It's a gray area.
09:52So, that's so far as the case is concerned.
09:54Now, what came up before the Supreme Court today, basically, was this man came to court
10:01and said, there are a lot of FIRs against me.
10:04Please centralize the FIRs, number one.
10:08Number two, please protect me from arrest.
10:11And number three, let no new FIRs be filed against me on the same issue.
10:17All three of which he got from the court.
10:20But while he got it from the court, he also got a lambasting for the court for what he
10:24had said.
10:25Now, same as he quoted his view, I may lambast him on television for what he had said.
10:34The judges were also in a public forum, and they lambasted him from that public forum.
10:40The whole difference is when I lambast him on the television, it's a public comment on
10:45a public comment, whereas when the judges do it, it starts getting the signs of a judicial
10:52comment.
10:53Now, that's where I'd like to draw a clear distinction.
10:57Much of what you had said is not the order of the court, but regulating the ITE, doing
11:03everything else.
11:04These are observations which have come up.
11:05No, but let's come to the real substance of this.
11:07Let me just complete what I'm saying.
11:08Okay, go on, sir.
11:09Time and time again, we find a lot of observations being made from the bench.
11:14Now, many people may feel the court should not have made such observations from the bench.
11:20Maybe the judges could have said so somewhere else, but not from the bench.
11:25Others may feel the judges were hearing a case and considering whether it was obscenity
11:29or not, and whether it will fall within or not, and express their view that it was obscene.
11:35Now, that is so far as the case is concerned, and the court has not, other than verbal observations,
11:43passed any kind of directions or anything so far as ITE regulation is concerned.
11:49So if you want, I'll continue on what I feel.
11:52Let me frame the question and then you can give us your answer.
11:54I want to quote what Justice Suryakant says.
11:58So as the case of YouTubers, we're not going to leave this vacuum, the way it is being
12:02misused by so-called YouTube channels, goes on to say, and he's asking now the Attorney
12:07General and the Solicitor General to address, to assist in addressing the vacuum, stating
12:11if the government of India is willing to do it, we will be happy.
12:15Otherwise, we are not going to leave this vacuum.
12:18Now, this is being linked to the government in any case working on the broadcast bill
12:23and the plan to try and regulate YouTube content creation, which a lot of YouTubers feel is
12:28really an effort to stifle their free voice.
12:31So the two cases have now got linked, and naturally, when the government's already working
12:34on this, this is the perfect opportunity to go in and make that case.
12:37Do you think that is warranted?
12:38Do you think it's about time that we try and moderate and regulate like we do on television,
12:43what goes on on YouTube?
12:44I think you've raised a very important issue.
12:46This is actually going to the root of the matter.
12:50This is a view expressed by a bench of the Supreme Court without passing any directions,
12:56but it's a view expressed by them, which tomorrow, it's a view expressed today.
13:03Tomorrow, a court hearing it may or may not continue with such view.
13:08Now, according to me, let me deal with it constitutionally.
13:13The right to freedom of speech can only be restricted as found in Article 19.2.
13:22Your right is under 19.1a and your restriction on this right is found under 19.2.
13:29If it does not fall within 19.2, you cannot be restrained.
13:34Now in India, unfortunately or needfully, pre-censorship has been accepted in any kind
13:47of audio-visual content.
13:49And this has been recognized by the Supreme Court more than 40 years ago.
13:54So in India, we have pre-censorship, which in many other countries like the United States,
13:59you do not.
14:00But in India, we recognize, especially under the Cinematograph Act, anything, there is
14:06pre-censorship.
14:07Now, the question is this, if there can be pre-censorship on a cinematographic film,
14:15the YouTube is also a visual.
14:19So the next question which should be asked is, can there not be pre-censorship, even
14:24so far as content on the YouTube is concerned?
14:29Which is where we have to draw a very, very thin line.
14:33And that is this, that pre-censorship, quay, vulgarity, obscenity in cinematograph films
14:43is allowed.
14:44Not quay opinions, quay views, or even if you say the most unpopular thing, even if
14:52you advocate something which the constitution does, protects, because there was a famous
14:57case of Rangarajan versus Jejeevan Ram, where the film was anti-reservation, and in fact
15:04went to the extent of saying, these are laws made with flaws.
15:08And when the Madras High Court banned it, the Supreme Court reversed it and says freedom
15:12is for the thought that we hate, not for the thought that we cherish, and said that that
15:18kind of censorship was not permitted.
15:21Now if YouTube content is sought to be censored, I believe that is a very difficult space to
15:29go, because a cinematograph film is something very easy to censor, you see the content,
15:35see if it is something vulgar or obscene, and you direct the cutting of that.
15:41But in YouTube, unless it is a matter of vulgarity or obscenity, visual obscenity or vulgarity,
15:52I cannot say how it can be actually censored.
15:58Secondly…
15:59What about regulation?
16:01So this is pre-censorship?
16:02Censorship has to be done by the state, not by the court.
16:06Sure.
16:07So the court saying that you should bring in some guidelines is going back to the Vishakha
16:13principle, where guidelines are meant to be laid down.
16:17If there are no guidelines, that vacuum can be filled.
16:21So the court is basically saying, you need to lay down certain guidelines, but till that,
16:28you need to lay down a law, till then we will bring in guidelines, thus far, all right.
16:34But the question is, can the government itself censor speech, unless it falls strictly within
16:431902?
16:44If the government cannot do so, the court also cannot do so by guidelines.
16:52So the court cannot do something by guidelines.
16:56Any kind of restraint which is not found in 1902.
17:00So at best, the court could say that you must have pre-censorship of cinematograph
17:06material which comes out on YouTube, because of vulgarity, obscenity, because that's already
17:12something which can be done.
17:14But to say, you must watch what is coming out, you cannot do so unless 1902 is attracted
17:22there.
17:23The material must be against public order, material must be against integrity of India,
17:30the material must be against the sovereignty of India, material must be something highly
17:34defamatory of a nature, which anyway YouTube does, when something is found to be defamatory,
17:40there's a mechanism by which it is taken down.
17:42So I believe when the court is saying lay down this, what the court says is, to the
17:47extent the constitution permits, if that is not done, till it is done, we will lay down
17:55the guidelines.
17:56Whether it can actually be done is a different thing, but that is the way I understand what
18:00the court would mean.
18:02But they cannot lay down any rules curbing free speech, unless it falls within 1902 of
18:10the constitution.
18:11R.A.
18:12Mahasundaram for taking out time and joining us.
18:13There is no one nor the court can do it.
18:15With your views.
18:16Thank you very much.
18:17That's R.A.
18:18Mahasundaram.
18:19I want to listen now to the President of the Supreme Court Bar Association, former Additional
18:23Solicitor General, one of India's top advocates, Vikas Singh, now joins us on this broadcast.
18:28We heard a very nuanced argument by R.A.
18:31Mahasundaram, your senior colleague on the bar.
18:34He's basically making the point that you can't, perforce, find some way of clamping down on
18:41unfavorable opinion, just because there are those in governments who may not like it.
18:46You can, of course, clamp down on vulgarity and profanity and you can have some norms
18:50around that.
18:51The question that was asked of the government by the Supreme Court was that should content
18:57on YouTube be regulated?
18:58On this issue, where do you come out, Vikas Singh?
19:01Well, as far as content on YouTube is concerned, today it is completely unregulated.
19:08And the result is that it is impossible even in households to stop access to YouTube to
19:14even children, because anybody can just log into YouTube and see whatever is available
19:18on the platform.
19:22So there definitely is a need to control the content on YouTube and whether it will be
19:28done, whether it can be done, whether the technology is there to do it or not, is of
19:33course a…
19:34But many content creators fear that this is just the government trying to find a way of
19:37clamping down on free speech.
19:39There's a lot of content on YouTube, which is unpopular from the political lens, which
19:43the powers that be may not like.
19:44So far, they haven't been able to curb that.
19:47The concern is that this could be a backdoor way of getting that job done.
19:50So according to me, the curb on the content can only be if it is bordering on criminality
19:57and not otherwise.
19:59And if you ask me what has happened in this case, this is a case of humor.
20:04And the only section which he has been charged of is, which I think can remotely apply Section
20:09294 of the BNS, because Section 294 talks of obscenity and vulgarity.
20:17But when you look at humor, and this is something global, the threshold of vulgarity while,
20:24you know, exhibiting humor or while trying to make a show, a humorous show, is much higher
20:31than the threshold that you will apply to a sort of a political speech or, you know,
20:37a serious speech that is given on any platform.
20:41So on this question, should… because the government is trying to come out of the broadcast
20:45bill, content creators are trying to oppose it.
20:47Do you think this is the right opportunity for the government to try and push that through?
20:51So according to me, only when the content is, you know, of such an intent, which can
20:59be said to be committing a particular crime under the BNS.
21:02Now, according to you, did this Bia Biceps fellow commit a crime or not?
21:07Yes, so if it is not so, then it can't be because I remember a very famous US case which
21:14said that, because US also had the First Amendment, there also they brought in free
21:19speech, gave free speech a much wider ambit.
21:23So they said in that Supreme Court judgment, that even if there is an obnoxious branch
21:28in free speech, the obnoxious branch should be allowed to grow rather than, you know,
21:33to trim it.
21:35And that is what free speech is all about.
21:37And I, in fact, I remember when I had done that case for Vinod…
21:41So let me bring you to this case.
21:42Do you think Ranveer Allahbadia committed a crime?
21:45Do you think on obscenity action needs to be taken against him?
21:48Or do you think this is just everybody going overboard?
21:51I think, I think it is not a crime.
21:53It is definitely something which can't be said to be, you know, can be justified as,
21:59you know, to your sensibilities, or it can definitely be said to be vulgar.
22:03It can also be said to be, you know, something which you would not want families to see.
22:09But at the same time, it can't be said to be a crime.
22:12You will recall Amar Singh Chamkeela, who was murdered in Punjab.
22:17He also used to crack all kinds of jokes, you know, which were definitely vulgar, and
22:21the society found it to be vulgar, and he lost his life because of that.
22:24He was ultimately killed for that.
22:27But he was also not accused of any crime, even in those days.
22:30So according to me, this kind of, you know, broad mindedness, Laxman cartoon have been
22:36wide critical of what politicians do.
22:39And this is quite so many years back, it started, but it was never considered to be a crime.
22:44Okay.
22:45So according to me, dealing with humor, the threshold has to be much higher.
22:49You can be offended and disgusted by his comments without thinking of this as a crime, and that
22:54doesn't necessarily mean that you go and use that opportunity to come down on political
22:58free speech.
22:59Vikas Singh for joining us with your thoughts.
23:01Thank you very much, sir.
23:03So we've heard from two advocates.
23:04I want to go across now to senior advocate in the Supreme Court, Sanjay Hegde.
23:07He joins us on this broadcast, Mr. Hegde.
23:09Thank you for taking our time.
23:10I've heard from Arema Sundaram.
23:11I've heard what Vikas Singh had to say, and I'm curious to know as I also introduce other
23:16panelists joining us soon after.
23:18I have Kushal Verma, he's a host, a podcaster.
23:21We have Anish Gawande, spokesperson of the NCP of Sharad Pawar, and I have Rahul Eshwar,
23:27who has been pushing hard against what Ranbir Alabadia said.
23:31So Sanjay Hegde first, Mr. Hegde.
23:34Because the question is very simple.
23:37Can this then be an opportunity to push the broadcast bill through?
23:40Because so far, the broadcast bill came in, it received a very strong pushback, saying
23:44that this is the government trying to clamp down on social digital free speech.
23:49Now the Supreme Court has created an opening, saying that you can't have this vacuum, and
23:53it's true.
23:54You can't have all kinds of rubbish and profanity and vulgarity of the kind that YouTube has
23:57been full of.
23:58So then, should YouTube content be regulated, and if so, how?
24:02Sanjay Hegde.
24:04I don't think YouTube content can be regulated in India.
24:07Why not?
24:08Are you going to create a walled garden, saying that you will have a special YouTube for India?
24:13Because YouTube has all kinds of content from all over the world.
24:16But you can take down whatever is offensive and violative of whatever the broadcast bill
24:20says, if that's the decision that is ultimately taken.
24:23That's the question.
24:24No.
24:25So, even if your broadcast bill comes through, can you ask YouTube to take down content which
24:34is foreign in origin?
24:37Then you are creating a walled garden within India.
24:41People may not watch Ranveer Allahbadia, they'll go on to Joe Rogan or they will go on to some
24:45other podcaster.
24:46No, so that's as far as international content is concerned.
24:48What about content created within our walled garden?
24:53So that's the point.
24:54Are you going to create a walled garden within India?
24:57Then you are effectively barricading your internet.
25:01And that's not a good thing.
25:03You started in terms of YouTube and humor and vulgarity.
25:10But what you are then going for is a much wider thing of shutting the internet off or
25:18only allowing access of certain parts of the internet to India.
25:23No, but some of these YouTubers have run amok and you can't have all this kind of filth
25:27and profanities and abuses and vulgarity going online.
25:30That's not right either.
25:31There has to be some restriction.
25:32I agree with the point that you don't want to hound those making unpopular political
25:36comments but you can't have this level of vulgarity going on.
25:40And this is hardly the most offensive thing that's been said.
25:43If you don't like it, don't watch it.
25:45If you don't want your kids to watch it, then there are technical solutions within your
25:50mobile phones, within your devices, you can do it at your level.
25:55But to tell the people at large that this is what you will watch and this is not what
26:01you will watch is to bring in a nanny state.
26:05The nanny state...
26:06No, but there are regulations on television, for example.
26:08If all of it is consumed on the phone and on screens, YouTube as well, and TV, why is
26:14it that you have content regulation on one medium and not on the other?
26:17Because content regulation on radio, television, print, YouTube is free for all.
26:22Yes, because it's the nature of the technology.
26:26As far as the internet is concerned, the internet has worked on the principle that everything
26:32is accessible to everyone, except in countries like North Korea and some parts of China with
26:40regard to the internet where portions of the internet are blocked for their citizens.
26:47Are we going down that route?
26:50Then that's a different thing altogether.
26:52No, but you look at it as a binary, why should it be a binary, Sanjay?
26:55Why is it the extreme of North Korea versus a free for all, do what you please, abuse
27:00who you will?
27:02It's not a binary.
27:05I simply put it to you that he who says nothing stupid will say nothing profound.
27:10If your approach is to let the marketplace of ideas have free reign, then necessarily
27:19you will have good and bad content.
27:24Indian citizen should be broad-minded enough to figure out what is good content for himself
27:32and what is bad.
27:33No, but the same holds true for radio, the same holds true for books, it holds true for
27:35print, it holds true for television.
27:37If there are reasonable restrictions on all the other medium, why should one medium be
27:41free for all?
27:42One, I answered, it was the nature of the technology.
27:46As far as television is concerned, again…
27:48No, but I don't agree with the nature of the technology, because anything can be printed.
27:53Anything can be printed, what's to do with the technology, Sanjay?
27:56No, let me add further.
28:00Even television or books, for that matter, are no more legislatable technologically,
28:09because you will see the same stuff that you see on television, on YouTube, on the internet
28:15in various forms through apps.
28:17Similarly, with books, you have PDFs all over.
28:20So please get out of your old 19th century, 20th, early 20th century mindset and move
28:26in to a world where you cannot have walled gardens on the internet.
28:31That's one.
28:32The second thing is, conceptually, I am opposed to a nanny state.
28:38The state cannot tell me what to read, what to think, and how much to consume and not
28:45to consume.
28:46Yes, children need to be protected, but there is technology on the devices themselves.
28:53That is for parental control, and that can be done.
28:56Okay, Sanjay Hegde, for joining us.
28:59Thank you very much.
29:00I want to throw open this debate now.
29:01Rahul Eshwar has been gunning for Ranveer Alabadi and the kind of humor that's going
29:05around.
29:06We have Kushal Mehra joining us.
29:09He's a podcaster, and I have Anish Gawande from the ANCP.
29:12Let me go across to Rahul Eshwar first, because, you know, the fear that a lot of content creators
29:19have is that so far, they've been able to say and do what they want, and the fact is
29:25that during the Lok Sabha elections, for example, YouTube content became one of the principal
29:29forms of opposition against the ruling BJP, that this could be used as an opportunity,
29:34this hearing in the Supreme Court could be used as an opportunity to try and clamp down
29:38on free speech on YouTube.
29:41Why then are you of the view that Ranveer Alabadi has committed a crime and action needs to
29:45be taken against him?
29:46Rahul Eshwar.
29:47Rahul Kavalji, two submissions.
29:49First of all, the twin sister of liberty is responsibility.
29:53The twin brother of creativity is sensitivity.
29:57There is no liberty and creativity without responsibility and sensitivity.
30:01We are living under a false illusion that there is absolute free speech.
30:05No, there is only responsible free speech.
30:07Hate speech, perversion should be filtered out, should be blocked.
30:11That's the responsibility of the society.
30:12Second, I'm a Hindu right-wing activist.
30:15I lean towards the right-wing spectrum that Ranveer Alabadi is also leaning to.
30:19But the larger point is, beyond politics, we all value family ethics, family values.
30:24There are some sacred things that we should not cross the Lakshmana Rekha with.
30:27One is family.
30:28One is faith.
30:29Rahul Kavalji may remember, I was the first person to file a complaint against Sadhvi
30:32Prachi for her absolutely irritating anti-Muslim comments, Islamophobic comments, saying that
30:38we need a Muslim-moved Bharat.
30:39I filed an FIR, sent it to UP election commission, made sure that she was not allowed to campaign.
30:45I'm a Hindu right-wing activist too.
30:46There are some decencies that we all have to maintain.
30:49Sanjay sir is a very senior advocate, we all respect.
30:51But at the same point of time, this is the issue with the liberals.
30:54Many times they close their eyes and they believe that some realities are not there.
30:59See, nobody is saying that, no, I am not the Aloknath kind of Sanskari.
31:03I am not the holier-than-thou kind of a person.
31:05See, but we are all modern, we understand.
31:08But I have two kids in my home.
31:10My elder son wants to be a YouTuber.
31:13I don't want him to see these kind of content and get influenced.
31:16And you know, when they grow up, they shouldn't be seeing this perversion.
31:20And YouTube has community guidelines, Facebook has community guidelines, Instagram has community
31:24guidelines.
31:25But shouldn't India have some kind of a community guideline?
31:27We cannot live in anarchy.
31:28See, these are two...
31:29So those are important points.
31:30I'm going to get Kushal Mehra to respond.
31:32We can't have anarchy.
31:33It cannot be free for all.
31:35There must be some national community guidelines.
31:37And that's reasonable.
31:38Some of the...
31:39And you know, the thing is that this is not even the worst of what this character or others
31:43like him have said.
31:44Some of the content is really wild.
31:46One is that, let them say what they want, let whoever wants to watch it, watch it.
31:51That's the argument that was made by Sanjay Hegde.
31:54However, Rahul Eshwar's argument is no, he's not comfortable with his children, his family
31:57watching this.
31:58And there should be some national community guidelines.
32:02But there are guidelines.
32:04There are guidelines.
32:05I'm actually kind of appalled that nobody seems to know how the internet works.
32:10If you put on an OTT app, I'm just using an OTT as an example, Rahul, you would see different
32:16profile names, right?
32:18And there is a classification for kids.
32:22Those profiles are existent on YouTube too.
32:25For example, I don't even swear, or maybe not even 0.5% of my podcasts would have any
32:34swear word by my guest.
32:37But I, by default, mark every single product of mine that I put online as 18 plus.
32:43Because I just, and the moment when you log into your YouTube channel account, if you're
32:47not 18 plus, you can't access my podcast.
32:49It's as simple as that.
32:51And there are multiple other guidelines that can be done.
32:53Rahul, we are making a classic mistake over here where I think bad parenting has been
32:58confused with something else.
33:00I think it's a classic case of bad parenting where parents have outsourced the raising
33:03of their children to devices.
33:05And now they want the state to manage the device instead of them managing the device.
33:10This is a classic case where I am a bad parent, for example, hypothetical parent here.
33:15And I am like, I don't need to waste my time doing all these things.
33:18So how about I give powers to the state?
33:21Let Rahul Eshwar respond to that argument.
33:24You do your job as a parent.
33:25You guide what your children can do.
33:27You put the right age controls.
33:28Why do you want the nanny state to do this for you?
33:31Please remember, state is a parent state.
33:34Nanny state is a purposeful derogatory term to say that state should not have any kind
33:38of ethics.
33:39State does have ethics.
33:40And we have even learned from very earlier class that family is the basic unit of society.
33:45There are some values, some decency that we have to keep.
33:49Perversion, child pornography, rape tube.
33:52These things are not acceptable.
33:53But those are part of YouTube's community guidelines already.
33:56Exactly.
33:57Similarly, national guidelines.
33:58So why then do you want extra guidelines?
34:00We want extra guidelines because the internet is proliferating at a very fast rate and people
34:05are content, especially young people are consuming content.
34:08Better checks and balances will be good for our society and government should bring in
34:12regulation and not restriction.
34:14Government should bring in regulation, some kind of monitoring so that it and there should
34:18also be check and balances or checks and balances too.
34:20No, but given the fact that the millions of minutes of video being created every week,
34:24who's going to sit and monitor?
34:26Just like, you know, monitoring television channels or the newspaper is bad enough, who's
34:30going to sit and watch all these videos which go on sometimes for three, three, four hours?
34:35That's the reason why we need laws with teeth so that if somebody is raising a complaint,
34:39the police is empowered to take some sections or courts can deal with such sections.
34:44No, but let's assume that Kushal Mehra says something in his podcast, which you don't
34:47agree with, and you file a complaint, you want laws with teeth, you'll have Kushal jailed.
34:52See, it is not about sending somebody to jail, it is somebody of creating an example.
34:57Nobody wants Ranveer to be in jail, but we all want Ranveer to learn a lesson.
35:01That's the reason why he himself...
35:02Okay, let Kushal respond to this.
35:03You make one fellow an example, it has a chilling effect, then everybody says, okay, that guy
35:08got into trouble.
35:09Let's not overdo it.
35:10Let's pull back on some of the crassness of our humour and let's try and just be more
35:14sober.
35:15Okay, Rahul, I'm just going to use historical examples, prohibition beyond the point.
35:20See, everything in life has a Laffer's curve in terms of effectivity is concerned.
35:25I'm using the analogy of the Laffer's curve to explain to people that taxation also works
35:29where a little too much tax or a little no tax situation.
35:35Taxation also has a speech part, censorship also has to have a speech part.
35:38I can guarantee you, let's say, actually Sanjay Hegde was right.
35:43You either create a North Korea or a China like situation in India, or you have to deal
35:49with this because let's...
35:50No, but why take it to the extremity of a binary?
35:53It's not taxed.
35:54It's not an either or.
35:55I think people don't understand how the internet works, Rahul.
35:57I think we're being naive here.
35:59I want to be as respectful as possible, but this is the naivete of the Indian internet
36:05user that think they can control the...
36:08Now look at this entire controversy, Rahul.
36:10India's Got Latent was A, behind a paywall.
36:15Everybody could not watch it, right?
36:17It was behind a paywall, marked 18 and above.
36:20Behind everything.
36:21Guess what was not behind the paywall even right now?
36:24Kill Tony, which India Got Latent, is a copy of, and Kill Tony is way more edgy than India's
36:31Got Latent can ever be.
36:33What are you going to do?
36:34Jail the American?
36:35Tony Hinscliff?
36:36What are we going to do?
36:38That's an important point.
36:39Let me put that question.
36:40As Anish listens on, I want to go across Rahul Eswar because that's an important argument
36:46that there is content internationally, which may be way more offensive or way more edgy,
36:52I mean, describe it whichever way you will, than the content being produced inside India.
36:58What are you going to do about that, Rahul Eswar?
37:00Rahulji, there is always a middle ground possible.
37:02It is not between North Korea and an absolute anarchy.
37:05See, nobody likes to...
37:06Take this specific example of a show which is highly abusive, but the show is an international
37:12show.
37:13It's available on YouTube.
37:14What will you do?
37:15I mean, if somebody is raising a complaint, government should be empowered enough to take
37:18an action.
37:19For example, what happens if somebody is airing anti-national content?
37:22What happens if somebody is airing how to create bombs?
37:24See, the issues with the pseudo-liberals is, they think they are the only intelligent people.
37:29Whereas, please understand, we are all responsible and we know how to deal with things.
37:33And if you are crossing the line, we will come with a case for you.
37:35Please remember.
37:36Okay.
37:37Kushal Mehra wants to respond and then I promise to go to Anish.
37:40Kushal.
37:41He's looking very agitated.
37:42Okay.
37:43All I...
37:44See, all I have understood is, see, I have been as respectful as I can to Rahul.
37:49Rahul seems to be taking offense on behalf of the whole world.
37:52Rahul, I just want to let you know, all this pseudo-liberal ad hominem, you know, you might
37:58get away with this on television studios, but you only sound silly, Rahul.
38:03Please, if you can give a rational argument, if you can give a rational argument.
38:09And please remember, you can, you can have your smirk and, you know, kind of disrespect
38:14all you have.
38:15I didn't do that.
38:16You pseudo-liberals can do that.
38:17But try something like Ranbir and we will see you in court.
38:21Rahul, again, you will see me in court if I do something.
38:26But the point is...
38:27You try something like, something like Ranbir Lahabadia, we will see.
38:30See, the point is, this is the issue.
38:32They don't understand the sensitivity of the people.
38:34They don't know to respect family values and they think they have all the knowledge in
38:37the world.
38:38What knowledge in the world, sir, you have?
38:39See, this kind of extreme liberal arguments are bad for any society for that matter.
38:44Okay, Rahul Eshwar, you made your argument.
38:46Let Kushal Mehra respond.
38:48Yeah, see, this is why I don't do TV because people talk over each other.
38:53It's as simple as that.
38:55I actually, personally don't agree with Ranbir Lahabadia.
38:59I'm someone who actually would follow the Rahul Eshwar route.
39:02I'm actually very much into family values and all of that.
39:05But my thing is simple.
39:06I'm nobody to tell Ranbir Lahabadia what he's supposed to do with his life.
39:10That's my point.
39:11Why?
39:12Because I don't want the government to be powerful.
39:15And I'll explain it with an example.
39:17Today, maybe, I've never hidden, I'm a BJP voter, right?
39:21Maybe the BJP may not be nasty to me.
39:23Tomorrow, the Congress comes to power.
39:25I don't want any government to have any kind of power to use it against people they don't
39:30like.
39:31The moment and the day people in this country will realize that you should not give this
39:35state so much power, Rahul, they can do it to you too.
39:38And Rahul, I wanted to address the thing that you were saying that, oh, radio has to follow
39:42guidelines.
39:43TV has to follow guidelines.
39:45Everybody has to follow guidelines.
39:46Rahul, even the internet has guidelines.
39:49It's not that the internet doesn't have guidelines.
39:51Rahul, do you think Indian laws don't apply to the internet?
39:55They do apply to the internet, right?
39:57But unfortunately, the technology is such that we've not adjusted ourselves to the new
40:01reality.
40:02Now, I personally do believe in family values.
40:05You know what I do when I see all these things?
40:07I don't consume them.
40:08I don't consume Indian comedy.
40:10I don't consume most of these things.
40:13So what are you going to do?
40:14Anish, Anish, I want to go across to Anish Gawande from the NCP.
40:18Where do you come out on this, Anish?
40:19We're having a raging debate in the studio about whether YouTube content should be regulated
40:24or not, Anish.
40:25I think I've listened patiently and realized only, I've realized, Rahul, I've listened
40:29patiently and realized only one thing that we're trying to find 18th century solutions
40:33to 21st century problems, right?
40:35The reality is that as much as we would like to, we cannot censor the internet.
40:40The last time the government tried, they got to page 10 of Google search results and then
40:44gave up because some Sarkari Babu was in charge of this entire process.
40:48Now let's see the precedent for this, right?
40:50Look at where section 67 of the IT Act has been used.
40:53It's been used against Murawar Farooqui.
40:55It's been used against Haseen Trivedi.
40:57It's been used against Umesh Khade the rapper.
40:59You know where it hasn't been used?
41:01Against the Salli Bai case, where there were people being auctioned off online, Muslim
41:05women being auctioned off online.
41:06You know where it hasn't been used?
41:08In cases of child pornography, where the Karnataka High Court was forced to reverse its own order.
41:13You know, Ranveer ek bahana hai, broadcasting bill lana hai.
41:16The government wants this power to be able to censor content online that they don't agree
41:20with.
41:21This is power being placed in the hands of a government that has shown no capability
41:26or no ability actually to censor on moral grounds.
41:29It has only shown ability to censor on political grounds.
41:32Those who like this government will not get into trouble.
41:35Those who don't like this government and take positions which the BJP may be opposed to,
41:40they're the ones who end up in jail.
41:41Anish Gawande is citing past precedent to predict what may happen in the future.
41:45See Rahul Kawalji, without politics, every government may be prone to misuse.
41:49That's the reason why courts will be there.
41:51As I earlier said, I filed a case against Satyaparachi and made sure that she was not
41:55able to campaign because she has crossed the line.
41:57See, Indian laws should apply.
41:59I agree with Mehraji.
42:00Indian law, IT Act 67 is there, 67A is there, BNS 296 is there.
42:05So shouldn't these apply to online platforms too?
42:07All we are selling is, we need to create a moderate middle ground.
42:11And that moderate middle ground, we can debate where to draw the line.
42:13He's saying, don't treat it as a binary, look for a moderate middle ground.
42:17Anish.
42:19No, but even today the Supreme Court has said that this is obscene content but not told
42:24me why this content is obscene.
42:26These laws are kept purposefully vague.
42:29Even the new broadcasting bill, a draft of which we've only seen a few months ago, says
42:33that anything that harms public interest can be banned with a fine of 50 lakhs for the
42:37first time and two and a half crores for the second offence within three years.
42:41Now this Lakshman Rekha is going to be drawn by the same people who are morally policing
42:46us and do not have the ability to police their own members.
42:49You know, for all the moral outrage that has been generated by the party in power over
42:54the last few years, you know the reality is that in three states, Karnataka, then Gujarat,
43:01then more recently Tripura, MLAs were caught watching porn in the assembly.
43:05What happened to them?
43:06Which party were they from?
43:07Has one of them not been promoted to Deputy Chief Minister before the government fell?
43:11So this moral outrage is, this moral outrage is silly.
43:15And when the court itself does not give me any reason, it makes me scared that the court
43:20will then be in the hands of anybody who is going to raise outrage.
43:24Rahul Eshwar, respond to what you are hearing from Anish Bhai.
43:26Anish, Anish, he has sought redemption.
43:27How many people can afford, how many people can afford to go to the Supreme Court?
43:30Okay, Anish, you have spoken.
43:31Let Rahul Eshwar respond.
43:32Anish, just one submission.
43:33See, obscene is very tough to pinpoint and define, but we all know obscene when you see
43:38it.
43:39For example, cracking sex jokes with parents or what Ranbir said, you can ask me what is
43:43the obscenity in it?
43:44Is he not having the freedom to do it?
43:45Why can't he speak about that?
43:47He's not speaking about your parents.
43:48You can create a lot of justifications.
43:50See, you can rightly question Modi ji's government.
43:53No, that's up to them to answer, but we need such parameters.
43:56We cannot live in any kind of anarchy.
43:58The arguments you use against law can be used against any law for that matter.
44:03That's the reason why some kind of check and balance where the society can decide, media,
44:07courts can decide.
44:08If somebody is misusing it, courts can definitely step in.
44:10See, for example, Subair, the things were misused against Subair.
44:14So there was a check and balance coming from the court.
44:16So it can be, the misuse should be prevented.
44:18No, but check and balance took a lot of time.
44:19The guy was hounded for a very long time, Rahul Eshwar.
44:22That's true.
44:23That's true.
44:24That's very unfortunate.
44:25That's true.
44:26Me being a right-winger has no shame in admitting that people like Subair, even though I disagree
44:30with him vehemently, should not be hounded.
44:31You know, he's a fact-checker.
44:33I may disagree with his position.
44:34This is the reason why.
44:35See, you cannot have a fear of people misusing a law and not having a law at all.
44:40Anarchy is never the solution.
44:42So enlightened and reasonable regulations should be there.
44:45Enlightened regulations.
44:47That's what he's asking for.
44:48Kushal Mehra, I'm running out of time.
44:49I'm going to give you the last word.
44:50Enlightened regulations.
44:51Rahul Eshwar sounds like, you know, the rebirth of Jawaharlal Nehru, where he added the reasonable
44:57restrictions in the entire First Amendment.
45:02I think Rahul Eshwar is the representation of Jawaharlal Nehru now, because it was…
45:07Yeah, go on, Kushal.
45:08Yeah, at the end of the day, you cannot monitor this.
45:12Best of luck.
45:13Anybody who gets 1 million plus subscribers, all you're telling them is, get a O1 visa,
45:19go to America, change the bank account, keep creating content, make more money.
45:24Best of luck.
45:25Try anti-semitism there.
45:26They will know the feel of it.
45:28They will know the power of it.
45:29No, but this is a real problem.
45:30A lot of these YouTubers move to Germany and elsewhere and can do the same content and
45:33earn in dollars or pounds or euros, which is more than what you'd get for…
45:38Rahul, we lose GST.
45:39Will they be able to promote Nazism?
45:40We lose GST.
45:41Will they be able to promote Nazism?
45:42They should not be.
45:43Nazis are evil.
45:44Will they try anything anti-semitic?
45:45They too have regulations.
45:46So, similarly, some regulations should be there everywhere.
45:47Rahul, you sure you don't understand the United States of America?
45:48You should go and see the content of Candace Owens.
45:49I do, sir.
45:50I frequent there.
45:51Candace Owens actively promotes it.
45:52Candace Owens actively promotes it.
45:53So, there are regulations to it.
45:54There are no regulations in America.
45:55There are, sir.
45:56That's the reason why Proud Boys were in jail for a long period of time.
45:57See, let's be realistic about it.
45:58It's not a free-for-all.
45:59It is not anarchy.
46:00Rahul, it's just that you want to be the guy with the hammer and that's the reality.
46:01It's just that you want to be the guy with the hammer and that's the reality.
46:02It's just that you want to be the guy with the hammer and that's the reality.
46:03Okay.
46:04So, all sides have spoken.
46:05This is deeply contentious.
46:06I won't tell you what I think.
46:07But I leave it to you, our viewers, to decide where you come out on whether the issue of
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