Former Delhi Chief Minister Atishi defended the Aam Aadmi Party's liquor policy and said it increased the Delhi government's revenue, but didn't reach its targets.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00And joining me now is the leader of the opposition in the Delhi Assembly and the former Chief
00:05Minister of the Aam Aadmi Party, Atishi, joins me on that big CAG story.
00:09Appreciate you joining us, Atishi.
00:12Would you concede that the manner in which the report of the CAG has been tabled in the
00:16Delhi Assembly suggesting a 2,002 crore revenue loss because of the Aam Aadmi Party government's
00:24liquor policy is a huge embarrassment, especially on the back of the poll defeat?
00:31Rajdeep, for anyone who says that there is a 2,002 crore rupee loss to the exchequer
00:41clearly hasn't read the CAG report and has only read the pointers that have come from
00:46either the BJP headquarters or the Prime Minister's office.
00:49The eight chapters of the CAG report, seven chapters are on the old excise policy that
00:56the Aam Aadmi Party government repeatedly said needs to be put out, needs to be changed.
01:02The CAG report repeatedly says that the old excise policy was causing loss to the exchequer.
01:09The old excise policy, the pricing was being manipulated.
01:13There was a lot of black sale of liquor happening.
01:17There was a lot of smuggling happening of liquor from Haryana and Uttar Pradesh and
01:21that policy needed to go.
01:23Number one.
01:24Number two, the CAG report clearly says that the new policy brought in by the Aam Aadmi
01:29Party government was more transparent, was going to put an end to the sale of liquor
01:34in black and would have increased government revenues.
01:37Three, they clearly say that the new policy was not implemented properly and that is why
01:45the target, the revenue target, the high revenue target set by the new excise policy wasn't
01:51achieved.
01:52Why was this policy not implemented?
01:55Because of three players.
01:56Aatish, Aayu, you know Aatish, Aatish just a minute, no no one minute, one minute, one
02:01minute.
02:02Number two, the CBI who filed an FIR right in the middle of the policy implementation
02:07and number three, the ED.
02:09So let us be very clear, if the CAG report indicts anyone, it is the BJP's, the central
02:17government's nominee, the lieutenant governor, the central government's agency, the CBI and
02:22the central government's agency, the enforcement directorate, because they are the ones responsible
02:26for all implementation of what the CAG calls.
02:31No, no, Aatish, one minute, you know, you're saying eight chapters.
02:35The findings that I have also, I have read the report, policy risks creating cartels,
02:40license control in a few hands, norms violated to give contracts.
02:45Now this is also part of the new policy.
02:47You're making it old liquor policy versus new.
02:50The CAG report, when referring to the new policy, clearly suggests that there were anomalies
02:55which you cannot escape.
02:56It was your government.
02:57If you read the 208 pages of the report, 80% of the report is about the problems with the
03:11old liquor policy, how there was a lot of sale of liquor in black, how there was smuggling
03:17of liquor inside Delhi from Haryana and Uttar Pradesh, how the cost of the liquor, there
03:23was no checks and balances, and therefore the base cost of the liquor upon which the
03:30profit was being calculated was many, many times higher than what was being sold in other
03:35parts of the country.
03:37So but you brought in a new liquor policy.
03:40Why make it about old versus new, you brought, no, no, but Aatish, you brought in a new liquor
03:44policy and there were anomalies, irregularities in that policy, which are also the subject
03:49of a CBI inquiry.
03:50So you're making it about old versus new.
03:53You will have to justify the implementation of a new liquor policy and why that liquor
03:58policy failed.
03:59Absolutely.
04:00And that is exactly what I'm talking about.
04:04Why was the new liquor, the excise revenue in 2020-21 was 4,100 crores with the old liquor
04:15policy.
04:16With the new liquor policy, the projected revenue was more than two times.
04:20It was 9,000 crores.
04:22Why?
04:23Because it was a better policy.
04:25It was preventing smuggling of liquor into Delhi.
04:28It was preventing the under the table sale of liquor that prevented revenue from coming
04:34in.
04:35Now why was this liquor policy, which has led to thousands of crores of increase in
04:40revenue in Punjab, the same liquor policy, why did it not lead to the same revenue in
04:46increase in Delhi?
04:47Why was the projected revenue not increased?
04:50Because during the implementation of the policy, the LG repeatedly threw spanners in the works
04:55and did not let adequate number of liquor stores be opened.
04:58Number one.
04:59Number two, in between the opening of the, in between the implementation of the liquor
05:03policy, the CBI FIR was filed.
05:06In another month, the EDFIR was filed.
05:10Obviously the liquor policy could not be implemented after an ED and CBI FIR has been filed.
05:17Because those ED and CBI FIRs suggest there were irregularities.
05:20No one is, no one, I don't think it's a question of the new, the new excise policy.
05:27The new excise policy had its merits.
05:29The question is in the way it was implemented.
05:32And that's where the corruption allegedly took place.
05:36The new excise, the new excise policy had not even been implemented for seven months
05:42by the time the CBI FIR happened.
05:45It had not even been implemented for eight months when the ED and ECIR happened.
05:52Any new policy has its implementation hiccups, more so in Delhi where the Lieutenant Governor
05:58was repeatedly throwing spanners in the works.
06:01I can bet, do a proper audit of GST, the number of times GST implementation has to be, had
06:09to be changed.
06:10Every GST council meeting, you have new taxes imposed, you have new taxes revoked, sometimes
06:1618%, sometimes 12%, sometimes 28%.
06:20No you have to file GST in an aggregate manner, no you have to file GST in a segregated manner.
06:28There have been at least, at least 2000 GST notifications to improve the implementation
06:36of the GST from the first day when it was launched.
06:40More than 2000 notifications, right?
06:42Will you say that it was badly implemented?
06:44No, it takes time for any new law to be implemented.
06:49It takes time for any new policy to be implemented.
06:52The new liquor policy was in the process of implementation.
06:56Seven months into a new policy, the Central Bureau of Investigation files an FIR, nine
07:01months into the new liquor policy, the ED files an ECIR, obviously.
07:06So no officer is going to sign a file after that.
07:09Once an FIR has been filed by the CBI, once an ECIR has been filed by the Enforcement
07:14Directorate, will any bureaucrat in this country sign a file of that policy?
07:21Of course they would not.
07:22They were worried that many of their batchmates had FIRs filed against them.
07:28So I stand by the fact that the new liquor policy was a transparent revenue increasing
07:35policy, has done so in Punjab.
07:39I would be happy to share the figures with you of how the liquor policy has, in fact…
07:46Atishi, most neutral observers will say yes, the new excise policy could have generated
07:52more revenues.
07:53You've given the example of Punjab, there are others who will give the example of Haryana.
07:57The question is not new versus old.
08:00The question also is, and this is the point that the BJP is making, that as a result of
08:05this new policy, there was cartelization, there were benefits given to the so-called
08:09South Cartel according to the EDCBI inquiries that eventually led to the jailing of your
08:15leaders including your leader Arvind Kejriwal.
08:18So their claim is that money was then used for elections in Goa and in Punjab.
08:24Let's be very clear, Rajdeep, Rajdeep, Rajdeep, Rajdeep, Rajdeep, Rajdeep, nothing like this
08:30is in the CAG report, which is why I also doubt the fact that you're going to get the
08:34point…
08:35I said CBI and ED, I said CBI and ED are firearms.
08:40Nothing like this, nothing like this is in the CAG report.
08:45Whatever you are talking about, none of this is in the CAG report and as far as the ED
08:50and CBI are concerned, I think we only need to look at Arvind Kejriwal's bail judgment
08:55where the Supreme Court says that these central agencies are acting like caged parrots and
09:00not acting independently.
09:03So I think we don't really need to talk about the CBI and ED, enough has been said about
09:07that, enough has been said by the Supreme Court about that, let that case go to trial.
09:11But as far as the CAG is concerned, CAG report says nothing about cartelization, CAG report
09:20says nothing of the sort that you have been talking about.
09:22CAG report spends 80% of its pages talking about how the old policy was leading to bootlegging
09:32of liquor, how the old policy was leading to the selling of liquor in black, of smuggling
09:38of liquor in from Haryana and Uttar Pradesh needed to be changed, about how the new policy
09:43was a transparent one and how it would have prevented sale of liquor in black and number
09:48three, that there were problems in implementation which led to the liquor policy, new liquor
09:54policy not reaching its own projected targets, Rajdeep, it still generated more revenue than
10:01the old liquor policy, this is the most interesting thing.
10:04In 2020-21, 4100 crores was the revenue generated by the old liquor policy, in 21-22, the new
10:15liquor policy, you know Rajdeep, you have to hear this, more than 5000 crores was generated
10:21as excise revenue, that means with the new liquor policy, the revenue of the Delhi government
10:28actually increased, it did not reach the targets that the policy per se had planned,
10:34it did not reach the targets that we ourselves had hoped it would, it did not reach the targets
10:38as we have reached in Punjab, but it still increased the revenues of the Delhi government,
10:45this is exactly what the CAG report says, so I would request you and your viewers, not
10:50just to read the pointers that are coming out of the Prime Minister's office or the
10:54BJP, I am not reading, no, no, Aatish, this is the second time you mentioned that, I am
11:00reading out specific pages, look, we can all look at particular aspects of the report,
11:05one of the more controversial findings, 144 crore waiver granted to licensees for the
11:10period between December 28, 2021, January 27, 2022, citing COVID-19 restrictions, the
11:18CAG noted that this waiver went against the excise department's own stance leading to
11:23further revenue loss, and this Rajdeep was based on multiple orders of the High Court
11:32that had asked for deposits to be returned, not just in Delhi, but in Tamil Nadu, but
11:38in Uttar Pradesh, but also in Maharashtra, in COVID times, there were multiple orders
11:45of multiple High Courts that said that when deposits were made during COVID times, but
11:51shops could not be opened, deposits had to be returned. This was not just an order of
11:57one High Court, similar orders came out of Delhi High Court, Bombay High Court, Madras High Court,
12:02repeatedly High Courts gave those orders for COVID times. So therefore, my suggestion is,
12:09as I said, read the whole report in totality, report very clearly says old policy needed to
12:15go, new policy needed to be brought in, new policy was good, implementation did not happen
12:20properly. And since implementation did not happen properly, the three agencies and the
12:26three institutions that need to be investigated are the Office of the Lieutenant Governor,
12:31the Central Bureau of Investigation, and the Enforcement Directorate, because they are the
12:37ones responsible for the loss to the executor. Otherwise, how?
12:41This is your imputation, my limited point, and I want to end on this, which is the politics.
12:48The fact is that the CAG reports have been presented since 2017-18, many of them in the
12:55last four years, but when you were in power, you chose not to table them in the assembly. If as
13:01you're saying you had nothing to hide, why not table it? You see the optics, as we saw even with
13:07the UPA government, when it came to the 2G CAG report, the optics turned against them. Now,
13:13we've got a government which says they're going to table them one by one, the next one likely to
13:17be on the alleged mismanagement of the public transport, the free bus rides, and the imputation
13:24that that also led to revenue losses. I just want to understand, if you are so confident that you
13:29have nothing to hide, why not just table that CAG report when you were in power? That could have
13:34been doodh ka doodh, paani ka paani moment. No, but we did. We tabled multiple CAG reports. CAG
13:44reports were tabled in 2021, 2022, 2023. Not on the liquor scam. So CAG reports have been tabled.
13:50Alleged liquor scam. No, but this report just came a few months ago. This report just came a few
13:56months ago. So these reports get tabled as a routine matter. Rajdeep, let us not get led
14:02astray by the propaganda of the Bharatiya Janata Party. This liquor policy is the one, and I would
14:09like to share this data with you. In Punjab, the revenue in the financial year 2021-22, you had a
14:186,100 crore rupee excise revenue, which in the current financial year with the new liquor policy
14:25has surpassed 10,000 crores. Why? Because you have a transparent excise policy based on auctions,
14:35based on a system whereby no selling of liquor in black can happen because upfront payments are
14:43made by license holders. The CBI, ED came, those auctions were made. If there is a problem with
14:48the policy. In Delhi. Rajdeep, Rajdeep, Rajdeep, let's be very clear. The CBI and ED are running
14:58as, what do you call it, frontal organizations of the Bharatiya Janata Party. You know that,
15:04I know that. Let's not pretend it is otherwise. So the case has not even after all these years
15:09gone to trial. Can we even begin to talk about what doodh ka doodh, paani ka paani is? I think
15:16the CBI report is an excellent document. I think everyone should actually read this document.
15:22The CAG report.
15:23This document actually underscores what the Aam Aadmi Party government was saying,
15:28that there was fundamental problems with the old excise policy. That the old excise policy
15:33was leading to a lot of bleeding of revenue from the Delhi government. A new policy was brought in
15:39that was more transparent. A new policy that was brought in that was based on auctions and greater,
15:45higher revenues from the government. But this policy could not be implemented properly.
15:52This is the story of the new excise policy that could not be implemented. And yes, I am saying
15:58that the three institutions behind that, the Office of the Lieutenant Governor, the CBI,
16:03and the ED, they are the ones who actually caused the loss to the exchequer, and they must be
16:10investigated.
16:11Let me leave it there, Atishi. I can see that your house, your voice is hoarse from all the
16:17shouting that was taking place today in the Delhi Assembly. Clearly the battle lines are drawn.
16:23You've given us your perspective, and I appreciate you joining us and telling us where you and your
16:28party stand on the CAG report. Just to end by asking you, presumably therefore, neither you
16:37nor your leaders are afraid that all of this could lead to another round of inquiries and potentially
16:44the government of the day putting some of your leaders once again under prosecution.
16:50No such worries, is it?
16:56They are quite capable of doing that anyway. There was no evidence. There was not recovery
17:01of a single rupee. There were no proceeds of crime. Not one single rupee from anyone's locker,
17:07home, office, village, anything was recovered. So this entire case regarding the excise policy
17:16was one of the biggest witch hunts this country has seen. But Bharatiya Janata Party is a party
17:22that is likely to go ahead with these kind of witch hunts. It's a party that is likely to go
17:28ahead trying to suppress the opposition. It is a party that is likely to persecute the opposition,
17:35not just Aam Aadmi Party, but any opposition parties whom they see as a threat.
17:40So therefore, such witch hunts may entirely continue. Such vendettas may entirely continue.
17:47That has nothing to do with these CAG reports whatsoever. In fact, as I said,
17:52this CAG report underscores what the Aam Aadmi Party has been saying for years.
17:57Okay. Atishi, for joining me on the show tonight, appreciate your joining me. Atishi,
18:03the former Delhi Chief Minister on where the Aam Aadmi Party stands after that CAG report
18:09has been put before the Delhi Assembly. Thanks very much for joining me.