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Enjoy this blast from the past from the EarthX Archives. 'Round the Fire was one of the first shows we produced and aired back in 2020. EarthX Media has grown a lot since then, but we still like to look back on these insightful conversations and see how far we've come.
What do hunters & anglers see when they look into their crystal balls? Three pros discuss the good and bad.
About 'Round the Fire:
Hunters and anglers sit around the (virtual) campfire to discuss conservation and environmental issues from the unique perspective of outdoorsmen. Sportsmen and women can be important allies in America's ongoing efforts to protect its landscapes.
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EarthX is a media company dedicated to inspiring people to care about the planet. We take an omni channel approach to reach audiences of every age through its robust 24/7 linear channel distributed across cable and FAST outlets, along with dynamic, solution oriented short form content on social and digital platforms. EarthX is home to original series, documentaries and snackable content that offer sustainable solutions to environmental challenges. EarthX is the only network that delivers entertaining and inspiring topics that impact and inspire our lives on climate and sustainability.
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Enjoy this blast from the past from the EarthX Archives. 'Round the Fire was one of the first shows we produced and aired back in 2020. EarthX Media has grown a lot since then, but we still like to look back on these insightful conversations and see how far we've come.
What do hunters & anglers see when they look into their crystal balls? Three pros discuss the good and bad.
About 'Round the Fire:
Hunters and anglers sit around the (virtual) campfire to discuss conservation and environmental issues from the unique perspective of outdoorsmen. Sportsmen and women can be important allies in America's ongoing efforts to protect its landscapes.
EarthX & EarthXtra
Love Our Planet.
The Official Network of Earth Day.
About Us:
At EarthX, we believe our planet is a pretty special place. The people, landscapes, and critters are likely unique to the entire universe, so we consider ourselves lucky to be here. We are committed to protecting the environment by inspiring conservation and sustainability, and our programming along with our range of expert hosts support this mission. We’re glad you’re with us.
EarthX is a media company dedicated to inspiring people to care about the planet. We take an omni channel approach to reach audiences of every age through its robust 24/7 linear channel distributed across cable and FAST outlets, along with dynamic, solution oriented short form content on social and digital platforms. EarthX is home to original series, documentaries and snackable content that offer sustainable solutions to environmental challenges. EarthX is the only network that delivers entertaining and inspiring topics that impact and inspire our lives on climate and sustainability.
EarthX Website: https://earthxmedia.com/
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TVTranscript
00:00I'm Johnny Carroll Sane. I'm here today with Michael Cravens, who is the conservation coordinator
00:26of Arizona Wildlife Federation. He's got a lot of stuff going on here. He's a board member
00:31of the Arizona Backcountry Hunters and Anglers. He's also an ambassador and contributor to
00:36Hunt2Eat. Glad you could sit down with us, Michael. I'm also here with the publisher
00:42and editor of Bearhunting Magazine, Clay Newcomb, and I'm actually kind of surprised we got him
00:47in here this close to pre-rut activities.
00:52Pleasure to be here and look forward to the conversation.
00:56We're going to start off by establishing, I think, some pretty well understood ideas that
01:02having healthy habitat, healthy fish and wildlife populations, and a place to pursue those fish and
01:07wildlife populations forms the bedrock of not only the hunting heritage that led to where we are
01:14today, but the current hunting culture, and it's going to have to be a part of the future going forward.
01:20I think the essential component of understanding how hunters and fishermen are connected to conservation
01:30and have been for a long time and will be for a long time in the future is this one key component
01:36that even some hunters don't know about, which is we're the ones that have been paying for conservation
01:43in North America since, I believe, 1937 when the Pittman-Robertson Act, which is essentially an excise tax,
01:55which was instated, that is a voluntary tax that we pay on hunting and fishing goods that goes back
02:04into the states based upon some interesting calculations that they do that pays for conservation.
02:13This excise tax is important, and we know that conservation, environmental issues, almost always goes back to finances,
02:22if we're just being honest, and this user pay system means that we're the ones that are using the resource,
02:28using these public lands, and we're also the ones that are paying a big chunk for conservation.
02:34So that's one thing that's built in, Johnny, that you don't even have to know about that,
02:39but if you go to Walmart and buy hunting goods, you're paying for conservation.
02:44We could talk the whole time about that.
02:46Well, to build on what Clay said, I grew up in the Missouri Ozarks just like you fellas,
02:53and I hunted and fished because that's what you do when you're in the outdoors and you grew up in the Ozarks.
02:59I got away from that for a while, and basically I just started chasing critters around.
03:05I was bird watching for 15 years, seriously.
03:08I was chasing herpetophauna, reptiles, and amphibians around, freshwater fishes, crayfish.
03:13Man, I got excited about all of it.
03:15So I like to say that I've kept a foot on both sides, the consumptive and the non-consumptive, and I'll put it this way.
03:23There's a lot of great conservation work that goes on on the non-consumptive side of things,
03:30but honestly, it doesn't compare to what goes on in the sportsman community.
03:35I don't say that to belittle the other side.
03:38Like I said, I live on that side too, and I'm proud of it.
03:41But yeah, in the sporting community, there's something about having that tangible connection to these animals
03:49that makes you want to put in that extra effort.
03:53To make an argument for that working, just look at our model of wildlife conservation.
03:59Look at the past 100 years.
04:02We have more deer, more bear on the landscape than we did 100 years ago.
04:07And it's because we've done that while still enjoying these animals as a resource, bringing that meat home to our families.
04:18It's proof it works.
04:20And it's proof, in my mind, that playing around in the sporting side of things gives you a connection to animals and conservation
04:31that is very real, very tangible, and makes you want to contribute.
04:36Hunter numbers are declining.
04:38And so if you take the viewpoint both of you have presented, which I believe is accurate,
04:43hunters are the backbone of a lot of the conservation efforts in this country.
04:47So going into the future, if this next generation, the generation after that, we have declining numbers of hunters,
04:54what does that mean for conservation going forward?
04:57And can these conservation issues be even maybe a rallying cry, a way to bring more hunters into the fold?
05:07You know, I think if people really understood the funding of a lot of the success that we've seen in North America for our wildlife,
05:18they would be hunters.
05:20I mean, nowhere else in the world are big game animals thriving like they are in North America.
05:27And I think if you were to ask that question to somebody that was disconnected from rural hunting culture,
05:35they would probably say that would be false.
05:37Because, I mean, we have this idea of, you know, the world is collapsing in so many ways on a global scale.
05:46It is. I mean, we're having major environmental issues everywhere.
05:50But a shining star in the midst of all this is North America's big game.
05:56And, you know, Johnny, you guys would know this.
05:58There are 29, basically, species and subspecies of North America big game, which would be wild sheep, elk, moose, caribou,
06:07mountain lion, all the bears, all the deer, bison, you know, all these different species.
06:14And can the next generation carry that into the future and continue to fund conservation, continue to be, you know, good stewards?
06:26I think they can. It's an issue of how do we transfer this, transfer our values into these kids,
06:34which these value systems kind of get pulled apart perhaps by just the, you know, there's so much pulling at these kids these days.
06:43One thing I'll, again, I'll add to what Clay said. He's right.
06:48You know, North American big game is a shining example of something that's actually going right.
06:54And that's wonderful. But, you know, I don't know if our audience is all going to be hunters and anglers.
07:00So it's extremely important, I think, to point out that not in all cases, of course, but overall, what's good for big game,
07:08what's good for their habitat is also good for non-game species.
07:13Now, you know, we definitely we need more conservation on the non-game side of things.
07:19And I'll earmark the importance of the Recovery in America's Wildlife Act here, which is primarily focused on non-game species.
07:29That's going to help game species by, you know, the funds utilized for non-game are going to be available to big game if we do get Rawa passed.
07:37But my dog's distracting me here.
07:42Yeah, you know, I'm living in a place where I'm excited about the work the Sierra Club does.
07:51You know, a lot of people might not like that. I'm also excited about the work that the Elk Society does.
07:56And a lot of people might not like that. But the truth is, those two groups depend on each other.
08:00And, you know, whether they like it or know it or not, you know, wolves would not have habitat to live in if it wasn't for the Elk Society.
08:08Or I should say as much, you know, that prey base wouldn't be there, that acreage wouldn't be there.
08:13So all these groups are working together, whether they like it or not. And I, for one, I'm glad they're out there doing that work.
08:20I am too. And I agree with that. And I believe that there are hunters too.
08:26And I'll admit, I was kind of pessimistic about this for several years.
08:30But I believe that hunters, and you guys have illustrated here, hunters and anglers as a group, have adopted a more holistic view of wildlife management.
08:40Where at one point it used to be just about how can we increase the number of white-tailed deers and everything else be dammed?
08:47You know, how can we increase the number of wild turkey? But now a lot of hunters are ecologically aware.
08:55They understand more about how ecosystems work. And they understand that even species they don't pursue often have practical value to the ecosystem.
09:05Like Leopold said, every cog in the system, it matters.
09:10So I'm seeing that. And that's kind of what I'm seeing more and more again, you know, with the next generations coming up.
09:18They may have missed out on the hands-on experiences that we did as youngsters in rural culture.
09:28But they seem to have a much broader grasp of how that ecosystem works, generally speaking, across populations.
09:38So I'm thinking, again, that those two things can play together going forward.
09:43There's definitely a relatively new progressive movement in the hunting and angling community in relation to what you were just saying.
09:53And it's groups like Backcountry Hunters and Anglers, Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership, Trout Unlimited, and gentlemen like you two.
10:02I think those people, they were always out there. But they didn't necessarily have a voice.
10:08And guys like you and groups like those are providing that voice. I think it's a big deal. And I think it's the right way forward.
10:15And in that same vein, BHA is huge in that department.
10:19I mean, you know, you guys have brought the flat bill calves into hunting and angling culture, you know.
10:26Which to me, it's just like, I don't get that. But anyway, you know, that's, yeah, there you go. Put a bin in that calf.
10:33But that's the next generation. That's the millennials.
10:38I'm 45. I'm not in that next generation.
10:41I know. And I know that's a very petty thing for me to point out.
10:45But I see it actually as a pretty smart way to show this next generation, hey, you guys can be part of this.
10:56Yeah, you matter. You got a voice. It gives them a tribe, so to speak.
11:01And, you know, as much as a human tribalism can really mess things up, you know, it's part of what we are.
11:07And, you know, we want that place, you know.
11:09I feel like you have a place to belong and you're among like-minded people.
11:16You know, Johnny, to give comment to what Michael said about the different organizations working together,
11:26like a non-hunting conservation group and a hunting-based conservation group.
11:34Man, we're all after the same thing. We really are.
11:37We want healthy ecosystems. We want wildlife on the landscape.
11:42We want access to wild places for us to enjoy.
11:46The divide is how we enjoy that.
11:49And that is work that hunters need to do at bridging that gap like we're doing right now and just saying,
11:57hey, we're naturalists. We're interested in the broader health of the ecosystem.
12:06You know, we're not barbarians.
12:08And, you know, we're fighting against about 200 years worth of bad press to the American hunter
12:16in a lot of ways when it comes to conservation and even environmental issues.
12:21I'm putting the onus upon us as hunters to tell our story to do a better job at that.
12:30If you're breathing, if you're eating, you're a consumer.
12:34It just so happens that those of us that hunt prefer to get a portion, some of us more,
12:41a larger portion than others, of our sustenance by our own hands in the wild.
12:47Actually, all three of us, I think, have talked about this.
12:49You know, hunting is probably one of the most human things, maybe the most human thing that we can do.
12:55Absolutely.
12:57That's what led to us being human.
12:59And if you don't want to do it, if someone else doesn't do it, I'm okay with that.
13:05I want to make that point that you said, you know, animals coming out of ecosystems, that's as natural as can be.
13:11That's how things always operate.
13:13Death leads to life.
13:15I live in probably the most left-leaning neighborhood in Tempe, Arizona.
13:22I mean, it's a left-leaning town, and I am in the up center of the left-leaning neighborhoods.
13:27And I'll start by saying, you know, everything's politicized these days, right?
13:33Everything's part of it.
13:34It's just mind-numbing.
13:36Things aren't really like they come across to us through our social media channels or television.
13:42The people I live around are fantastic people.
13:45They are not anti-gun.
13:46They all know that my family eats almost 100% wild meat.
13:50I take a great deal of pride in that.
13:52They think it's awesome.
13:53And it's the same thing on the hunting and angling side.
13:56When you first stick your head in that door, or say you're looking in from the outside,
14:00you see these loud and proud fellows.
14:03On both sides, you're going to hear the loudest, most unreasonable folks first, all right?
14:08So if you're not in that group, you make your decision up right there about them.
14:12But the truth is there's a lot of thoughtful, a lot of reasonable people on both sides that you don't hear from.
14:19I think that's a great point, Michael.
14:21I'm glad you said it that way.
14:22It's easy for me to kind of have a persecution mentality.
14:27So it actually helps me to hear you say what you just said.
14:32Because sometimes I feel like I'm at the, you know, just like, well.
14:38You're going to get that.
14:39You know, I've brought bears home, two bears since I've been living in this house.
14:43You know, and the neighbors know I eat bears.
14:46It's not as bad as how it looks.
14:48And, you know, there's good people all over.
14:50And, of course, you know, there's going to be those people that are, you know,
14:55the first bear I ever shot I posted on Facebook, and I probably lost 10 people on there.
15:01But the point is I don't let it hurt my feelings.
15:03I don't get upset at people because they're trying to be good people.
15:05They care about animals, and so do I, you know?
15:09They just, you know, they don't have a grasp of what we are as a human being and how these systems work,
15:14and that we're part of an ecosystem, and we can do all of this.
15:17We can love animals, and we can eat them.
15:19We can have healthy ecosystems.
15:21You know, we can preserve the places they live.
15:23We can have all of that, you know?
15:24And, actually, we can do a better job of it if we're ingrained in it.
15:27Agreed.
15:28Don't you wish everyone would read Sam County Almanac?
15:32Great book.
15:33But you know what?
15:34You know what?
15:35Sam County Almanac does not belong to hunters and anglers.
15:37That is just as popular of a book on the non-sporting side.
15:41Really?
15:42It absolutely is.
15:43Did not know that.
15:45I've actually heard him compared to a more modern Henry David Thoreau.
15:49I don't know if that's accurate.
15:51I always struggle reading Thoreau.
15:52It's just hard.
15:53Yeah.
15:54But Leopold is like poetry.
15:56Yeah.
15:57Yeah.
15:58Didn't mean to get that sidebar.
15:59But that's a good plug for Leopold.
16:01If anybody's watching this and you haven't read a Sam County Almanac,
16:04you need to read a Sam County Almanac.
16:06Whether you're a hunter, whether you're an angler,
16:08whether you've never set foot off concrete and asphalt,
16:10you need to read that book.
16:12Clearly, I have bias towards wanting hunting
16:15and this narrative to be accepted and to be true.
16:19But if I just do the best I can to pull myself away
16:24and look at North American hunting,
16:27and I can't speak for hunting in other parts of the world.
16:30I'm talking about North American hunting.
16:33There's just very few negatives.
16:37And that is just – there's not many things that you can say about that.
16:43Just when you look at the big system of what we're doing, how it works,
16:47the sustainability of it, the long track record of success,
16:52all the way down to, like, family relationships
16:55that are built through the activity of hunting.
16:59You know, good stuff, man.
17:01Good stuff.
17:02We talked about all the reasons hunting is good,
17:05and it should be a sustainable activity going into the future.
17:08We talked about how the next generation is coming up,
17:10how we can get them involved.
17:13What – let's look into the crystal ball.
17:17The camouflage crystal ball. Does that make sense?
17:19Let's look into the crystal ball and look into the future
17:22and tell me – you guys tell me what you think is going to go down in the future.
17:28Do you see, you know, that we're still going to have access
17:33to these public lands that are vital?
17:36I think they're probably one of the most vital things to this
17:39because the days when we grew up and we'd go out the back door
17:43and kill a squirrel or go on Uncle Bill's land in Back Forty,
17:49those are gone for a lot of people.
17:51So the access to public lands is super important.
17:55And then, you know, just the overall – yes, you know,
18:01lots of big game populations are doing well,
18:04but there's still an overall habitat deterioration.
18:07You know, there's water issues.
18:09There's still urban sprawl.
18:11There's climate change.
18:14What do you guys see going forward with these issues?
18:17Do you see – and I'm asking a big, huge question here.
18:20Do you see the hunting community rising up to the challenge here
18:24with a political voice?
18:25You know, I think we've already shown that we can do that.
18:28Again, I've seen a lot with backcountry hunters and anglers.
18:32Can we do that going forward on all these other issues?
18:35Let me hear from Michael first. Go ahead.
18:38All right.
18:39Well, like you, Johnny, I grew up in a time and a place where,
18:42when I was a little kid, I didn't even ask permission.
18:44I just jumped fences and I shot squirrels, you know, and I walked up streams.
18:49You know, as a teenager, you know, all I had to do was go knock on doors,
18:52and typically I was granted permission.
18:54Unfortunately, it doesn't appear to be the case like that back east anymore.
19:00So when I came to Arizona – I only came here for two years
19:03just to explore and look for snakes and mess around and see the desert.
19:07And, man, the public lands, it blew me away.
19:12I've never experienced anything like it.
19:16I can damn near go anywhere and do anything I want as long as I'm not tearing stuff up.
19:21It's a beautiful system.
19:23I had no idea that this – I had this wealth or that we had this wealth
19:28until I got out here.
19:30And, you know, public lands are always going to be on the chopping block.
19:34You know, we live in a capitalist society.
19:37There's a lot of wealth to be had in those.
19:40They're always going to be, you know, threats to them.
19:44Right now, you know, there's all kinds of turmoil on public lands.
19:48So nobody likes politics.
19:52I sure as hell don't.
19:54That's where these decisions are made.
19:56You know, that's where it comes down.
19:58So whether we like it or not, we have to have a voice in that arena.
20:02You know, again, I don't like it.
20:04I would rather ignore it.
20:05I'd rather stay out of it.
20:07But we don't have a choice in the matter, you know.
20:10And if we don't get in that arena and raise our voice, you know,
20:14in a reasonable and intelligent manner, we're going to lose these things.
20:19You know, with social media and urbanization, people are getting away from, you know,
20:29these things that the three of us grew up with and cherish so much, you know.
20:33We talk about, like, I forget the word for it.
20:36Edward O. Wilson talked about it.
20:37If you go into a room of kids all playing on video games and you pull a puppy
20:41or a frog out, nobody's looking at a video game.
20:44You know what I mean?
20:45We all have that connection.
20:46I don't think we're going to lose it that easy, even though it looks like it.
20:50Now, Johnny, to get back to your original question of what's going to happen
20:55with environmental changes, increasing human populations,
20:59decreasing hunter numbers, decrease of habitat, you know, climate change.
21:06I mean, man, there's just – I mean, the world needs solutions.
21:10And we've got to be the guys that stand up and say,
21:14hey, we've got a reasonable solution.
21:17And so I think we just need to – we need to have our ducks in a row.
21:21We need to have the narrative on the tongue of even the least of the hunters,
21:26if I could say it that way.
21:28The closest connection we have to the next generation is parents
21:31who are actually showing their kids.
21:33But that's not enough.
21:36We need a stronger understanding of how to communicate as humans
21:42in a social media world, which is a massive human experiment
21:45that none of us have ever successfully walked through
21:48because we're right in the middle of it.
21:50But if you could get about 70% of hunters that just had this pretty solid
21:56understanding of how we present ourselves on social media, we could change the planet.
22:04So what that means is leadership.
22:06We've got to have leadership in the outdoor world.
22:09We've got to have people that aren't just talking it but are doing it.
22:12And none of us are perfect, and I'm not claiming that I've made a lot of mistakes
22:17in a lot of places inside of the things I'm talking about,
22:20but I'm learning, willing to learn, willing to be humble,
22:23willing to listen and have a realistic view of our weakness,
22:30but also willing to have a lot of optimism towards the future.
22:34And so I think we can make right decisions.
22:39I would agree with that.
22:41I think we would be remiss, and Clay, you alluded to it,
22:47but I think we would be remiss if we didn't mention climate change
22:51in the discussion of the future of hunting and fishing.
22:58There's a lot of old guys out there that are dead set about denying
23:04anthropomorphic climate change, and I'm not here trying to change their mind about that.
23:10But I will say they've been around long enough now, especially here in the southwest,
23:16where you can physically see the changes, and they can tell you those stories.
23:19You're not going to get them to tell you it's their truck causing it, that's for sure,
23:22but they can tell you they're seeing the changes.
23:26Everything we've talked about up to this point is probably not going to matter much.
23:29We can't get that stuff under control.
23:31So I think in any discussion about the future of hunting and angling,
23:36you've got to at least bring it up.
23:38I agree with that, and I think that hunters and anglers, because we're out there,
23:43we're going to be the ones seeing the changes.
23:46I'm already seeing some here.
23:50Actually, probably the last four or five years, we've had really, really wet summers,
23:56and I know that because I look forward to July and August every year
23:59when I can wade the creeks for smallmouth.
24:02Those creeks have to be at a certain level for me to effectively wade them safely
24:07and effectively wade them, and that's been a rarity.
24:10That, to me, is crazy.
24:12Growing up, that was a given.
24:14You go to the creek in July and August, and you're able to go to any hole you want to
24:18and fish it, and now we've seen whitewater kayaking levels in August.
24:26It's just unheard of, and I agree with you, Michael, and again,
24:32I'm thinking that if hunters and anglers can put maybe a lot of our politics aside,
24:38and I hate to say look for the anecdotal evidence,
24:45but that's all we've really got to go on as humans,
24:48and then you can compare it with the empirical evidence
24:51and see how does this stack up.
24:53Is this what I'm seeing?
24:55Is what I'm seeing an effect of this?
24:59Yeah, I think that's probably the biggest issue we face.
25:02It's just a little slower moving, I guess,
25:04and not quite as tangible and visual as a lot of the other issues.
25:10We have all lived in this little slice of time where we're just worried about our next meal
25:15and not getting eaten by a big cat.
25:17We don't look into the future as a species.
25:19That's not what we're set up for.
25:21That's not what we're wired for.
25:23It's hard to grasp this stuff,
25:26and unfortunately we're in a place where we're going to have to break out of that shell
25:29and look ahead a little bit.
25:31I think this is a great conversation.
25:33I don't know.
25:34Do either one of you guys have anything else to add?
25:37We could go on all day about this kind of stuff.
25:39We could, yeah.
25:40But I think we covered a lot of ground.
25:42Clay, you good?
25:43Yeah, I'm in agreement.
25:45That's what we're trying to do is really analyze what we're doing,
25:49how we're doing it, and how we can do it better.
25:51Okay.
25:53I guess we're going to call this one a wrap.
26:03We are sportsmen, and we are in trouble.
26:08We've learned what happens when we underestimate a serious threat.
26:13We can't make that same mistake with climate change.
26:16We need to stand up for America and for our kids and grandkids.
26:20Make your voice count in 2020.