Former president of the European Commission Jean Claude Juncker cautioned against Ukraine joining Nato as a form of security guarantee. Talking to Euronews for The Europe Conversation, he also said that Ukraine should be granted limited EU membership.
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00:00For the Europe Conversation this week, I catch up with former President of the European Commission,
00:12Jean-Claude Juncker. He tells me about the end of an era regarding US military support
00:17for Europe, but why Ukraine is not ready to join NATO or the European Union just yet.
00:25President Juncker, former President of the European Commission, thank you very much for
00:28joining us on the Europe Conversation. We've heard really a lot about the US's pivot towards
00:35Russia. Are you trusting in the situation? Not really. I know from the past, having met
00:41President Trump so many times, that he has friendly feelings when it comes to Russia
00:48and to the Russian President. I remember that he was, during the G7 meetings, advocating
00:55the membership of Russia in the G7, re-transforming the G7 into the G8. I have lost trust in Putin
01:07and in Russia, although having had good and friendship relations with Putin. But I was
01:17very surprised when Russia attacked Ukraine. I never believed that this could and would
01:22happen, but we need, I wouldn't say normal relations with Russia, but some relations
01:29with Russia, because Russia is part of Europe and we cannot change geography. Russia will
01:37stay there where it is. Do you believe though that the arrest warrant for Putin at the International
01:42Criminal Court should stand and should remain as part of any peace negotiations? I do think
01:49that the European Union and Ukraine of course has to have a place around the negotiation
01:55table. If you are not sitting around the table, you are on the menu. The ambition of the European
02:01Union is not to be on the menu, we want to be part of those who are cooking a final solution
02:09for the Ukrainian-Russian conflict. But do you believe Putin, the warrant for his arrest
02:14should stand? I don't know what I have to understand from what Putin and Trump are saying.
02:25One day they are saying the place of the European Union should be around the table, the other
02:29day they are saying no, no, no, we don't want to have the Europeans being part of the negotiation.
02:35I do think that Europe has to be part. You do think Europe has to be part? Yes. And what
02:39about NATO membership, do you think that's something that should be strongly considered
02:43by the US for at least unoccupied territories of Ukraine? You know, this is not a short-term
02:48matter. As long as Ukraine is under attack and is in war, Ukraine cannot become a member
02:57of NATO. Ukraine can become, although this is not a short-term issue too, of the European
03:09Union because Ukraine has a clear European perspective. NATO is a different thing. As
03:17long as Russia is attacking the Ukrainian territory, Ukraine cannot become a member
03:25of NATO. Would it become a member of NATO, we would put ourselves in the application
03:33of the logics of Article 5 of the NATO Treaty and I don't think that this is in the interest
03:40of Europe for the time being. Do you think that Putin has a point then when he says to
03:48Trump that the reason why he invaded Ukraine was because of the expansion of NATO? No,
03:53I don't think that this is the case. First, we never promised Russia to abstain from expanding
04:03to Eastern and Central Europe. That was never promised and never said and never written
04:10down. Second, of course, the West did make some mistakes in its relation with Russia.
04:19But I will not tell you what I consider having been a mistake because there is never a good
04:28reason for making war. If we are saying, well, we could have done this or we could
04:33have done that or we could have abstained from doing this or from abstaining from doing
04:38that, this in the eyes of Putin and of the Russian public opinion would be seen as reasons
04:49which allowed Russia to attack Ukraine. But there are no good reasons for starting a war.
04:58It's easy to start a war. It's very difficult to stop a war. When you look back at the last
05:04three years and how Europe has defended and supported Ukraine, how would you assess that?
05:10The fact is that the Europeans never wanted to become part of the war. We were showing
05:18solidarity with Ukraine. We did what we could do, taking into account the basic feelings
05:26of the public opinions of the European countries. We could have done more, providing with ammunition
05:41and with weapons, but that's a difficult issue in Europe because we didn't have war experience
05:49since the end of the Second World War. So it's not an easy step to be taken by Europeans.
05:55But were we too slow?
05:57To become, to some extent, part of the war. I think, honestly spoken, that we were too slow.
06:07But I know how difficult these decisions are when they have to be made in Europe.
06:13So NATO membership is not the right thing right now, but what about the move to EU membership?
06:20You said, as far back as just a short time ago, in 2023, that Ukraine was deeply corrupt and that
06:27we shouldn't be looking towards Ukrainian membership of the EU because it's not fair in Ukraine
06:32nor the European Union. Is that your position?
06:34The European Union has to be very careful when admitting new members. Ukraine is not ready
06:42for membership. The economy is not in a position that it could easily take part in the European
06:51internal market. The state structure of Ukraine is not reflecting basic European values at 100%.
07:02There is corruption in Ukraine. The Ukrainians themselves, they were always telling me when I
07:10was negotiating with them back in 2014-19, that they have a problem with corruption. We were
07:18always discussing with then President Poroshenko and then Zelensky ways and means how to
07:27combat and to fight against corruption.
07:31But I mean, they would say and President von der Leyen would say that they are making huge
07:35inroads with de-oligarchization and moving towards the rule of law system and that they
07:41could potentially be ready by 2030.
07:44But I'm accepting that Ukraine is making progress on these different issues we were mentioning.
07:51I would be in favor of a membership which would not be a total membership.
08:00Membership minus?
08:01Membership minus, but membership without institutional dimensions.
08:06So without, let's say, a vote of the council, for example?
08:09No vote in the council, but participation in European debates on issues which are of
08:15interest and concern for Ukraine, not giving them the impression that they are far away
08:21from membership, but showing that they are on the way to membership, but not having all the rights
08:29and all the possibilities of real membership.
08:32So access to the single market, for example?
08:34No, single market. Defense matters when the European Union will be in a situation where
08:40it has really a defense dimension, which is not the case as we are speaking. So
08:47part membership would, for the time being, be the only possible way, I think.
08:53Because you said in the past that we've had bad experiences with so-called new members
08:57in relation to the rule of law.
09:00Not all the new members are an example of deep respect of the rule of law, and we have to make
09:09sure that this weakness will not be enlarged by new members which would not respect the rule of law.
09:17Where do you see this has impacted the European Union? When you look at the likes of Hungary,
09:22Slovakia, in the past Poland, that disregarded the single market rules, disregarded Article 2
09:28of the EU treaties?
09:30I think that this was a failure both by those you were mentioning and by the European Union.
09:37We were not strict enough, I was not strict enough, although we were fighting with
09:44Slovakia and with Hungary in that respect. At the very beginning of this stepping away from
09:55those countries from the mainstream rules of the European Union, we were treating that with
10:01a too benign neglect.
10:03Just before I let you go, there is going to be a very important, momentous discussion
10:08around security and defense, a white paper from the European Commission.
10:12How strong should this be? What would you advocate for?
10:15Would you advocate again for common borrowing to spend on defense?
10:20I think that the moment has come to strengthen the European pillar of NATO.
10:27In recent years, not in recent years, but years ago, decades ago, the Americans didn't like the
10:33idea that the European dimension of NATO would become stronger. Now they are asking, rightly so,
10:40for it. So we have to increase our military budgets everywhere in Europe. I'm not mentioning
10:47a percentage because 5% is really not feasible, although Poland has 4.7%, so it's feasible.
11:01More in the medium term, but in the short term.
11:03It's not feasible, but the budgets have to be increased. I'm not advocating an aggressive
11:13European NATO pillar, but the European part of NATO has to be able to defend itself,
11:22because we cannot rely on the everlasting American support and protection. That's over.
11:29We are reaching the end of a period and the end of an era, and we have to take this into
11:37consideration and not forget it when things have been normalized as far as Ukraine and Russia are
11:45concerned. Okay, President of the European Commission, or former President of the European
11:49Commission, Jean-Claude Juncker, thank you very much for joining us on the Europe Conversation.
11:54Thank you for having me.