Speaking on Pakistan's internal situation, General Dwivedi remarked that the country is suffering due to its own extremism and worsening its crisis. "We seek stability in Pakistan; we do not want it to turn into a hub of terrorism," he added.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Ladies and gentlemen, Jai Hind.
00:06The Russia-Ukraine war was predicted to be short and sharp.
00:11It's been on for three years and there have been lakhs of deaths, both civilian and military,
00:18in Russia and Ukraine.
00:20The Hamas terror attack on Israel led to a regional conflict and a massive escalation
00:27and you had rockets and missiles and fighter jets being used.
00:32When we talk about India and the scenario that we are in, what are the challenges that
00:37we face now and the challenges that we face ahead?
00:41To talk about that, it is a proud privilege to have with us General Upendra Dvivedi, the
00:4730th Chief of the Indian Army Staff.
00:50The General has four decades of experience in the Army.
00:54He served in the North, the Northeast, the West.
00:57He's from Jackriff, Jammu and Kashmir Rifles.
01:00He's majorly into artificial intelligence, quantum computing and wants to take the Army
01:04forward to fight the next generation war.
01:07With me is Rahul Kawal, my brother-in-arms comrade and the News Director of the India
01:14Today group with someone who have covered counter-terror operations and conflict in
01:18India and even in Sierra Leone.
01:21So, and again, a fellow Fauji Brat with me on this broadcast.
01:26General, many thanks for joining us.
01:28If I want to kickstart and ask you, what is our next war going to be like?
01:35Are we fighting trench warfare or are we fighting fifth zone, fifth generation warfare?
01:39Are we fighting gray zone warfare?
01:41Dr. Rahul Kawal So, this question actually, it's very, very
01:45vast.
01:46So, if I have to keep it small, I'll say the gray zone warfare is something which is already
01:50on and India is perpetually in a condition of not war, not peace.
01:57And that is how it is going to continue with our two-and-a-half war threat, two-and-a-half
02:01front threat what we have.
02:03Now, coming on to what is going to be the future war, Atal Bihari Vajpayeeji said that
02:09you can change your friends but you can't change your neighbor.
02:11And if you can't change your neighbor, it means that as far as India is concerned, India
02:16is settled with all the five generations of warfare.
02:19It means trench warfare, indirect fire, maneuver warfare, hybrid warfare and of course the
02:26latest edition of the artificial intelligence or the quantum computing.
02:29Dr. Rahul Kawal General Dwivedi, the war between Russia
02:34and Ukraine has largely become a battle between Ukraine's drone forces and Russia's infantry.
02:43Can you explain to everyone sitting here your understanding of the speed at which we have
02:49been able to incorporate some of these new technologies?
02:53God forbid if India and China were to go to war and China were to send a swarm of armed
02:58drones, what is our level of preparedness to defend and to attack given what you are
03:04seeing and learning from the Russia-Ukraine war front?
03:06Dr. Rahul Kawal General Dwivedi So the few videos which have come out of
03:09the FPV and others are something which we should not take as a kind of a gospel truth
03:14that is point number one.
03:16This is age of acceleration when we are talking about the technologies changing very fast.
03:21But we also have to understand that change must come with the velocity of relevance.
03:26So once I have told you these five generations of warfare, it means are these generations
03:32going to go away?
03:33The answer is no.
03:34The second thing is what are we likely to do as far as this adoption of technology is
03:39concerned?
03:40The adaptation and innovation has to be there while we are carrying out the conventional
03:46operations.
03:47It means that we have to be prepared for all the situations which are coming up.
03:51For example, let's take drone.
03:53Drone and counter drone has got a ratcheting effect.
03:56You have a drone technology, now you need a superior counter drone technology.
04:01You have a superior drone technology coming up to counter that and so on so forth.
04:05So when are we looking at, drone provides you three facilities.
04:09It provides you eyes and ears.
04:11It provides you ammunition and also if I can say that the logistics.
04:15In case of India, we are adapting to it and I must give you example of 2022 when I took
04:21over as the army commander.
04:23That time a jawan or an NCO from a Sikh regiment had already prepared a drone which could fire
04:28AK-47, which could drop a bomb or so on so forth.
04:32So if I can say that Indians are very good at adaptation or jugaad, so we have all the
04:38answers for these kind of situations.
04:40When it comes to the superior technology, superior technology every time does not need
04:46answer as a superior technology.
04:47What you need is a battlefield equalizer.
04:49If I can somehow neutralize it, equalize it, it meets my requirement.
04:54Sir, you spoke of the jugaad and you spoke of how a jawan in the forge was able to make
05:01a drone with an AK-47 that could neutralize the threat.
05:04How do you scale it up?
05:05Because we are told and is that just psychological warfare that China or any adversary would
05:12have a swarm drone attack.
05:14Now, how do you counter a swarm drone attack or a massive rocket fire?
05:19And we are told that China has superior firepower that they take down your bridges and your
05:25camps and your forge.
05:26How do you counter that?
05:28There are two things.
05:29Firstly, or rather three things which I keep talking about, visualization.
05:33Where is he going to fire?
05:34That's what we need to see first.
05:36The second issue is preservation.
05:39He can fire at any place.
05:41He can strike at any place.
05:43But are we there at that place?
05:45Are we covered at that place?
05:46And the third thing is counter to what he is having it.
05:49If there is a swarm of drone coming from the other side, if you see the old time Mahabharata
05:54and Ramayana serials, you will always find from both the sides the arrows used to get
05:58fired.
05:58So, there will be counter swarm of drone which will be there.
06:01So, that will be taking care of that.
06:03What is important is, after the onslaught or after the direct firing, are you able to
06:08recuperate?
06:09Are you able to come back to the normal and carry out the actions which you were envisaged
06:13to do?
06:14Sir, when the People's Liberation Army assessed its military preparedness against the American
06:20forces, they spent a lot of time and energy on what Chinese strategy calls the assassin's
06:26mace, asymmetric weaponry which allows for an inferior force to neutralize the capabilities
06:33of a superior army.
06:35How much effort are we making in developing these asymmetric weapon systems?
06:41Because, just as far as numerical strength is concerned, the fact is that the People's
06:45Liberation Army is multiple times ahead of where we are at this moment in the Indian
06:50army.
06:51And we have already seen with Galwan, the possibility of a skirmish is now very real.
06:56As a doctrine, how much effort is being made to develop what the Chinese would call the
07:00assassin's mace?
07:01Dr. Jayaprakash Narayanan
07:02I think assassin's mace has lived through its life.
07:04It may not be more relevant today.
07:07And if you see as far as the terrain of the Himalayas is concerned, the terrain plays
07:12a very favourable role as far as India is concerned.
07:16The second issue is, you may have superiority in anything, but what is important is at the
07:20point of application.
07:22At the point of application, are you able to amass that kind of a resource application,
07:27strength and the impact which is required?
07:30I think that way Indian army is adequately poised to take care of that.
07:34The second issue is, today, you may be having the equipment, but can that equipment be used
07:40in the terrain?
07:41That is something which is important.
07:43I'll give you a simple example.
07:44If there is a defile, and if you may be having hundreds of tanks, what use of those tanks
07:49if it is to go through the defile?
07:51Dr. Jayaprakash Narayanan
07:52When we look at the current situation at the line of actual control, we're told that
07:57disengagement has happened.
08:00What are the next steps that need to be taken and how confident are you, given that you've
08:06decentralized, I believe, to a very large extent, in case tensions are building up.
08:11You've given some instructions to your officers on ground, sir.
08:14One, how do you counter that building up of tension?
08:17Two, can you trust the adversary given the 1950s Hindi-Chini bhai bhai, what happened
08:24in Galwan despite, you know, Wuhan and Mamalapuram, and he did he he could not succeed,
08:31given that you were deployed there.
08:32He didn't succeed in whatever he was trying.
08:35Is he building up to try for future?
08:37Dr. Jayaprakash Narayanan
08:38So, you use the word, can you trust?
08:41Now, as far as we are concerned, can you ever trust your adversary?
08:45The answer is, you cannot.
08:48So, what you have to do, you have to use the six Cs, which I talk about, I'll just cover
08:52the three Cs, that is co-existence, cooperation and coordination.
08:57So, when we are talking about it, we know that we have to stay together, we have to
09:00survive together and we have to manage the borders together.
09:04Is the war in interest of both the countries?
09:05The answer is no.
09:07So, what are we looking at?
09:09How can we harmonize the boundary situation as of today and manage it till the time the
09:13diplomatic solutions come out?
09:15So, for that, what you rightly said, as far as the communication issues are concerned,
09:20we have delegated to the battalion commanders and the brigade commanders also, so that the
09:25important or the smaller issues which are concerned can be handled at that level.
09:29Only those issues to be brought up beyond core commander which need to be addressed
09:33at the higher level.
09:34So, that way what happens that we are able to resolve lot of issues which are there.
09:38Now, you ask me what happens next.
09:41As you are aware that the last WMCC and the SR meeting took place in the month of December.
09:47Thereafter, again, the foreign secretary went there and went to China and lot of positive
09:52signaling has been done from both the sides.
09:54We are also looking at the next WMCC should be taking place soon, sometime.
09:59Once these teams sits together and thereafter decide the lines of effort which are required
10:04for the confidence building measures, that we will be executing those.
10:08And those line of efforts will be basically making sure that on the line of, that is on
10:14the northern front, we should be able to see how the more trusted kind of actions can be carried
10:21out from both the sides.
10:22I will give you simple example.
10:24The day before yesterday, there was heavy snow on both the sides.
10:27And both the sides initially had a hiccup that can we allow each side to get the earth
10:32mover equipment to remove the snow.
10:34But both the sides decided in their interest that okay, let us get it from both the sides
10:38and remove the snow because in the interest of the troops and also the local population.
10:42So, those kind of decisions have been taken at that level.
10:45Sir, but can you give us a sense of what's happening in Debsang, Demchowk, where the
10:49confrontation hasn't led to any kind of disengagement and de-escalation.
10:53There was a lot of stress and anxiety in terms of the buildup that had taken place over there.
11:00How are things currently between the two forces?
11:04Is there been a cooling down of tensions?
11:06And to what do you attribute this?
11:08Because we've been trying to achieve a pullback since May 2020, it didn't happen.
11:14Do you think this was linked to what was happening in the United States with Donald
11:17Trump becoming president and therefore China says that's the real problem we need to deal
11:21with and therefore pull back here?
11:22How, what's your interpretation of what's going on in the enemy's mind?
11:27See, you're asking me a question, what is going through the enemy's mind.
11:31As far as the soldier is concerned, then you're also asking me what is happening in the
11:35Central Politburo.
11:37I think that's a big canvas.
11:39I'll just keep it restricted to the Debsang and Demchowk only.
11:42So, as you see, the human mentality, the soldiers from First World War also, when they are in
11:48contact, you will find they are more friendly and adaptable to each other's condition because
11:53they emotionally understand, empathize with each other.
11:56But as the echelons go behind, they are more rigid in nature.
12:01So, once the directions from top go down that, okay, now we have to resolve this issue, it
12:05is very easy for the ground commanders to resolve the issue.
12:08And as I have said, the second and third round of patrolling has taken place and both sides
12:12are cooperating with each other.
12:13We inform each other, there is no issue at all.
12:15The grazing which was required to be carried out, those areas have been opened up, there
12:19are no issues at all.
12:20Wherever there is kind of some kind of a difference, they immediately contact each other, resolve
12:24the issue on ground and get over with it.
12:25Moderator Sir, when you speak of that jugaad, you know,
12:29that our soldiers are able to achieve to have the equipment on ground, are we level, are
12:35we able to scale it up to the level that it's available when we want it, the amount we want
12:41it, and the domestic industry provides it, because whether it's Israel that had to wait
12:46for ammunition from America and it depended on the administration whether they wanted
12:51to give it or not, or Ukraine that kept waiting for ammunition and all their offensive could
12:55not take place at times, how do we overcome that problem domestically?
13:01So, as far as the military resources are concerned, this is where, if I can say that the risk
13:06factor of a commander comes into mind, because what is enough, whatever you keep is not enough
13:13as far as the warfare is concerned.
13:15Because even when the warfare gets over, you should still be able to retain the resources
13:20to kind of a repel anything which is going to take place means twenty-five to thirty
13:24percent of war fighting resources should still be there with you.
13:28So, is any country ready for this kind of a situation?
13:31The answer is no.
13:33So, what does it mean?
13:35It means that firstly, which is the kind of a call today, why it is important?
13:41Because it is important because the production capacity has to be with you.
13:45When you have the production capacity, the lines of manufacturing and production is there
13:49with you.
13:50Now, it also means that you will be able to carry out the export.
13:55Once you carry out the export, means your search capacity is also there with you.
13:59Tomorrow, when we go in for a war, that the additional capacity which was there for the
14:04export is also being utilized for the purposes which is meant for.
14:07Today, what is happening?
14:08I just visited a country recently.
14:11The most effective weapon even today in Russia-Ukraine war is those dumb RT bombs which are
14:17being made smart with some kind of a kit, kit which is being done.
14:21So, as far as that issue is concerned, I again come back to the Jugaad which you have said,
14:25finally what the result to the Jugaad?
14:27And for that, India is the best.
14:29Moderator Sir, from China, let's pivot to Pakistan.
14:32Can you share with everyone here at the India Today Conclave, your understanding of the
14:39military positioning in Pakistan at this moment and your reading of what's happening between
14:45the line of… between the line of control and given the fact that we are heading towards
14:49summer, the snow beginning to melt in the Pir Panjal in some time and the possibility
14:55of incursions and your interpretation of what you think this summer could look like?
15:00Dr. Jayaprakash Narayanan
15:02So, first sentence which you used was between China and Pakistan.
15:05Do I understand you correctly?
15:07Because what we have to understand since we are moving from China to Pakistan that we
15:11have to be very clear that there is a high degree of collusivity which we must accept.
15:16In terms of virtual field, it is nearly hundred percent.
15:20In terms of physical, if I can say that most of the equipment which is there is of Chinese origin.
15:26So, during the Russia-Ukraine war, some leader said, I don't want to name it,
15:30said that as of today, everything is of a particular setup.
15:33The only button is being pressed by a particular countrymen.
15:36So, this is the situation as of today the collusivity is concerned.
15:40What it means, as far as I am concerned, the two front threat war is a reality for me.
15:46Coming on to the issue, this summer season along the Jammu and Kashmir,
15:49if I understand you correctly, that's what I'm asking.
15:53I always say that has any indication come that there will be kind of a stoppage to it?
16:00Has any kind of indication come from that point of view?
16:03The answer is no.
16:05So, if the answer is no, we should be prepared for again the, if I can say that,
16:10increase in movement of the terrorism, terrorists.
16:14But what have we done about it?
16:16From 2018 till today, we have been able to bring down the level of terrorist incidents by 83%.
16:24The recruitment in the valley has come down to only four to five people.
16:30As far as the indicators are concerned, if you see the tourism has crossed five lakhs
16:35as far as Amarnath Yatra is concerned.
16:38So, if you see the situation which is there,
16:40is from terrorism to tourism what we wanted to achieve has been achieved.
16:45But the number of terrorists which we have neutralized last year, 60% were Pakistan terrorists.
16:52As far as the other issue is concerned, whatever the remnants which are there in the valley and
16:57south of Pir Panjal, about 80% we feel that they are Pakistan terrorists.
17:02So, there is no letup as far as the western adversary is concerned.
17:06Is Pakistan being squeezed within, you know, a government in Afghanistan that's
17:12increasingly putting pressure on Pakistan, their AfPak border is burning, Balochistan is burning,
17:19Khyber Pakhtunkhwa is burning.
17:21In such a situation, many argue that the country could be in a very, you know, in a jelly state.
17:27I'm told people in Pakistan occupied Jammu and Kashmir and in Gilgit and Baltistan,
17:32they are also seeing what is happening at the moment.
17:34So, when the people of Jammu and Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan,
17:37when they see the development in our Kashmir,
17:40what is your information, what is happening in Pakistan and in Jammu and Kashmir?
17:46You want me to answer in Hindi?
17:48Yes.
17:49So, first of all, we have to see that in Feb 1994, Parliament passed a resolution
17:56that what is the meaning of our Jammu and Kashmir.
19:59So,
20:19you didn't really answer that question.
20:21If the end state is, can POK become a part of the Indian Republic?
20:27As Chief of the Indian Armed Forces, what's your response?
20:31My answer remains the same which I've given earlier.
20:35General, if I may, so we've spoken of China, we've spoken of the China-Pakistan tango.
20:42But has the threat for India actually increased
20:46that now there's a China-Pakistan tango and there's a Pakistan-Bangladesh tango?
20:51So, we were talking about a two and a half front war.
20:53Are we now looking at a three and a half front tensions?
20:57On ground.
21:01This is in English, no?
21:03Okay.
21:05So, as far as the army is concerned, the three tasks which are there to keep our frontiers secure.
21:13So, we are sharing frontiers with so many countries.
21:16So, when it comes to our capability, our capability should be able to take care of
21:20the capabilities of the neighbouring nations.
21:23And that is what our army should be prepared for.
21:26Now, coming on to specifically what you've asked for Bangladesh,
21:29as for the Bangladesh is concerned, it is too early for to take any decision for us.
21:34Because let elected government come, let's see the relationship.
21:38And let us see what to be done about it.
21:40Because as far as I am concerned, I am very clear,
21:43the present military to military relationship is very strong.
21:46And we keep exchanging notes on regular basis to avoid any kind of misgivings.
21:52Now, the second point what you brought out is basically the collaboration or kind of a
21:57relationship between our western neighbour and Bangladesh.
22:01As far as I am concerned, since I have said that the epicentre of terrorism
22:05is in some particular country, if they have relationship,
22:08anyone of my neighbouring country, I should be looking worried.
22:12Because as far as I am concerned, the terrorism route can be used from that country also,
22:16which is my major concern as of today.
22:19Moderator Sir, the government has set a
22:21deadline of March 2026 for when they think that Naxalism,
22:25left-wing extremism will be dealt with and finished.
22:29Do you have in your mind a similar deadline for when you think that in Kashmir,
22:36terrorism can be finished? Because local recruitment is down substantially.
22:40Some say it's down to a trickle.
22:42Do you see that happen? What would it take to make it happen? How soon can it happen?
22:47See, what is important is when terrorism will finish is dependent on so many indicators.
22:52Is the economic development taking place? Are the politicians able to take their own
22:57decisions, they are not doing it under duress? Is police free to carry out their actions?
23:03Are the tourists who are going, they don't need any kind of protection?
23:07The kind of a road opening which is being carried out is still being carried out and
23:11when is it likely to continue? So, these indicators which are there
23:15are telling us that there is a major hope and in the age of acceleration, the changes which
23:20has taken place from after the 5th August 2019 have been phenomenal.
23:25So, it's difficult to fix the time period because at times the violence level comes
23:31down to the level what you may have in metropolitan cities. So, but since there
23:36is a third country involved, till the time the third country is involved,
23:40it may keep on simmering at various levels. So, at times, it is for the government and
23:45the military to say, okay, now is the time the military can withdraw and police is capable of
23:50handling the…
23:51So, let me build on that further. Do you think like we've seen with some states in the northeast,
23:55the time has now come where the army feels confident for the civil administration to
23:59revoke AFSPA and for the local police to take over the job of law and order in the
24:05union territory of Jammu and Kashmir? It's highly possible. In what time frame is
24:10something what we look into? See, what we have to understand, firstly, we were looking at
24:13Poonch Rajouri area, Doda Kishtwada area. If you see that, we were looking at these areas will not
24:18have any kind of terrorism coming back. To the extent that bed and breakfast kind of accommodation
24:23will be prepared there for the tourists to come. The Mughal road we were looking at,
24:27this will be used in a big way. But what has happened? Today, we have inducted 15,000
24:32additional troops there to curb the kind of terrorism which has come in.
24:36So, what it means that it will take its own time. And when we have the AFSPA removed,
24:42that is something which will be a kind of a dissent taken between the
24:45local government there, the Home Ministry and the…
24:48Let me frame it differently. Would you feel comfortable if there is a conversation at this
24:55time between Chief Minister Omar Abdullah, the Home Ministry and the armed forces for a
25:01conversation to begin for the revocation of AFSPA in Jammu and Kashmir?
25:06See, it has to start… How Assam it happened? How in Manipur it happened? If you see Manipur,
25:12as far as the Imphal is concerned, the AFSPA was removed to a place or to begin with,
25:18the police was there but the AFSPA was not removed. So that in case it is required for military to
25:22move in, you can move in. Similarly, if you see in the areas of Jammu, is military omnipresent
25:28to carry out the city ops? No. If the AFSPA is there but the police is there to carry out the
25:33operation. So, before we remove the AFSPA, there is a transitional stage. The transitional stage
25:38is that the police should feel confident that we should be able to do it. As and when the army
25:43feels that they are no more required and there is adequate proof to say so, the army will say,
25:49okay, AFSPA can be removed. Moderator So, given this external
25:52threat and the external threat remains, Pakistan state-sponsored radical Islamist terror. Sir,
26:00before Balakot, we had seen, you know, 26-11 Mumbai terror attacks, Uri, Pathankot, Pulwama
26:07and inaction by Pakistan. A post-Balakot scenario, in short, there is no terror beyond JNK. There
26:14hasn't been a 26-11 or a Zaveri Bazaar or a German bakery kind of a terror attack.
26:18In your appreciation, how does India send across that message to Pakistan
26:23that terrorism is not even acceptable in Jammu and Kashmir, in our country?
26:28Dr. Raghuram G. Rajan I think that is, again,
26:31I'll go back to the time because the diplomatic isolation becomes very important. Economic
26:37isolation becomes very important. If you see Gulf countries earlier, they were fully supporting
26:43Pakistan in all manner. But today, what happens? All this GCC is basically having a close
26:49relationship with India. That is what even the loans which are coming from those countries are
26:54becoming the conditional loan. So, what I am saying that for everything, it is not the kinetic
26:59from the army which is required to be done. It's a whole of nation approach. But is Indian army
27:05prepared for a kinetic action? I keep saying we are always prepared. We will be assertive,
27:10but we will only be aggressive in case we are forced upon.
27:13Moderator Sir, let's spend a
27:15moment talking about the Agni Veer scheme. Now that a few years have lapped since the
27:19implementation of the scheme, what is the aggregate feedback you are getting from the troops
27:24and the officers about the efficacy of the scheme and potential suggestions you may have
27:29about how to make this more effective? Dr. Raghuram G. Rajan
27:32So, it's a very valid question and there are always difference of opinion on this issue.
27:37And I being the insider, I am getting the first-hand feedback of these issues.
27:41So, let me assure the countrymen that this scheme is proving to be a very great success. And
27:47Krim Dela Krim which is coming to us and their urge to learn is somehow comparatively very,
27:54very high. As far as their capability to deliver, whatever we wanted them to deliver in three to
28:01four years, they are able to deliver. Now, coming on to what all is required to kind of
28:08make this scheme more effective, that we are already working on various issues. For example,
28:14are we looking at that their leave, something should be synergized with the normal soldier's
28:19leave? When he becomes a casualty, is it required to be harmonized with the serving soldier?
28:25Similarly, we want the technically qualified more people, should we increase the age from
28:29twenty-one to twenty-three? So, these are some issues which we are looking at and it's working
28:33well. Dr. Raghuram G. Rajan
28:34No, but there was some conversation about increasing the percentage of retention from
28:38twenty-five to fifty, that instead of retaining one in four, retain one in two Agniweeds.
28:43Do you support that, sir? Dr. Raghuram G. Rajan
28:45So, this is an evolutionary process and it is too premature for us to take that decision.
28:50I think this decision, we should leave it somewhere up till December twenty-six to look
28:55into what is required, what not. I will use the term in age of acceleration something called as
29:00creative destruction. Why this term is important? Because what we see here that the technology is
29:06changing so fast because a man has to learn something, he has to unlearn and learn a new
29:13skill. Now, Agniweed has got that potential because somebody who has been working on a
29:17particular thing for ten to fifteen, twenty years, it's very difficult for him to unlearn
29:21and learn a new thing. But for Agniweed, it's very easy. And the kind of technological changes
29:27which are taking place, the creative destruction concept, I think we will be more happy with the
29:31Agniweeds. Dr. Virendra Tewari
29:33Sir, today is also Women's Day. Are we also looking at, you know, bigger role for women
29:39in the armed forces, more utilization of women in perhaps more combat roles also, internally?
29:46I have earlier also said I look at women something called as Kali Mata Karu
29:50because that is what is something a soldier will expect from a women leader. And yesterday only,
29:57I have given the sanction for the territorial army to induct women. And as you are aware that
30:02we want this number to increase with every passing day. But we also need to see we are
30:07coming from which society. How the society is looking at women? Is the education gender neutral?
30:14Are we having the colleges which are mixed? Are we having the rules and regulations which are
30:19biased towards a particular gender? So, if it is coming from that society means the societal
30:25changes take its own time. That's why the changes you will find are taking place,
30:29but they will be gradual in manner. Dr. Virendra Tewari
30:32We are out of time. You know, the big difference between India and Pakistan and there are so many
30:37and the difference between India and China is that you never have a situation where the chief
30:41of the Chinese army or the Pakistani army would come to an event like this and be so frank and
30:47candid in the responses and take the entire battery of questions that you've taken. For
30:52making the effort of joining us and being so candid with your responses, General Dwivedi,
30:56thank you very much. I really appreciate this. Thank you, sir.
30:58Dr. Virendra Tewari Thank you. Really enjoyed. I think I was
31:00more comfortable with you both having the army background. The EQ was very high.
31:04Dr. Virendra Tewari No, no, that's very kind and thank you.
31:06And we have to be very careful when we are questioning the chief of the Indian army because
31:10I have so many family members and friends from the armed forces. You know, you can't do with the
31:14army chief what you do with, say, Howard Lutnick or with Mike Pompeo or anybody else. You have
31:19to be very respectful and deferential to the fact that you made the effort of joining us
31:23and we are very grateful, sir. Thank you. Dr. Virendra Tewari
31:24Thank you. Really enjoyed talking to you. Thank you.