The.Beat.With.Ari.Melber.2025 S06 E07
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00:00And we begin with a story that has really striking revelations, and it's from inside
00:07the Trump cabinet meeting.
00:09And this is something where we're going to learn a lot in the next couple moments.
00:12You may have heard a little bit about it, but I'm going to go through the evidence,
00:14the facts here, because it is exactly what this Trump White House and a lot of what Elon
00:20Musk is up to, it paints a picture of it in a way that's different from what we've heard
00:25in public from all of the usual PR and the political press conferences and the efforts
00:31to tell a certain story.
00:32We're now going to go tonight together behind the scenes.
00:35This is reporting that shows what many would call a dysfunctional White House, and you'll
00:41see why.
00:42People at war with themselves and each other over the efforts to basically dismantle large
00:49parts of the federal government by someone who doesn't run the federal government, wasn't
00:53elected to the position, Elon Musk.
00:55And clashing with the very people who, of course, the president also picked to be in
00:58charge of these departments.
01:00And we often draw on different reporting around here.
01:02You know that from watching the news, right?
01:04We mentioned different stories.
01:05This is from the New York Times, credit to their reporters, their journalists getting
01:09the story out, and it is a bombshell.
01:12The Times reports that Musk basically ended up in a clash, a conflict with much of the
01:18cabinet, and that was Thursday this week, and laced into these other officials, some
01:24of whom are important, right?
01:26If you're picked to run the State Department, you are a pretty important official within
01:30the government.
01:31And just to put it clearly, we are talking right now about an unelected billionaire sitting
01:37in on these important meetings and going at people in very intense terms.
01:44And the substance matters, as well as, quite frankly, the emotion and the gossip of this,
01:49because it's all part of how this government is being run.
01:53Musk going at Secretary of State Rubio, according to the New York Times, basically saying that
01:59Rubio was not firing anybody.
02:02Quote, you have fired nobody.
02:04And Rubio responds, what about the more than 1,500 State Department officials who took
02:09early retirement in buyouts?
02:11Didn't they count as layoffs?
02:14Rubio asking then sarcastically if Musk wanted him to rehire all those people just so he
02:18could make a show of firing them again.
02:22These are two people at odds over the department that Rubio runs, and the subtext there is
02:29about who is being honest or accurate and who is just trying to put on a show.
02:35Musk, then, the Times reports, was, quote, unimpressed and told Rubio, actually, he was
02:39the show, that he was, quote, good on TV.
02:42The subtext, the Times says, being that he was not good for much else.
02:47And let's be clear, both of these men have risen in their careers through some aspect
02:52of public show.
02:54Rubio ran for president, Musk was on the campaign trail, he's made himself into a big deal out
02:58in public, but that's how they deride each other in private, basically saying, you're
03:02not for real.
03:03No, you're not for real.
03:04No, you just do it on TV.
03:05Here we are talking about it on TV.
03:07You know, the Times reports the meeting was actually hastily scheduled because Trump's
03:11cabinet members, again, the most important people he's picked to run the agencies, had
03:15reached a kind of breaking point about what they call Elon Musk's chainsaw approach here
03:20to the cuts.
03:21And the meeting was in the cabinet room, the president was residing, 20 officials attending.
03:27Then, the Veterans Affairs Secretary, Doug Collins, using this opportunity to go after
03:32the way Musk has fired veterans and officials who work at the VA.
03:36We heard from one this week, for example, and what's interesting here is you're going
03:39to see is the dissent, the concern is internal.
03:43It's not just people protesting or people who've been ousted from the government.
03:47This is Trump's pick for the VA, saying Musk should not wield a blunt instrument and cleave
03:52off everyone from Veterans Affairs.
03:54They need to be strategic.
03:56Then you have Sean Duffy, who runs transportation, also going at Musk.
04:01What am I supposed to do?
04:02Mr. Duffy says, according to the Times report here, I have multiple plane crashes to deal
04:07with now, and your people want me to fire air traffic controllers?
04:14The question kind of makes the argument that that sounds absurd, dangerous even.
04:20And Musk then responds to that logical sounding question and says, well, Duffy's basically
04:26a liar.
04:27Quote, Mr. Musk told Mr. Duffy his assertion was a lie.
04:31And throughout all of this, the Times reports that a president who, of course, used to do
04:34pretend boardroom meetings on his reality show, Trump sat back in his chair, arms folded
04:40as if he were watching a tennis match.
04:43The meeting ended.
04:44Trump said that he does support Musk's ongoing cuts, but the cabinet members are supposed
04:50to run their agencies.
04:52And he said something that is actually a restoration of what the rules are supposed to be.
04:57And it is a sign of dysfunction, and many experts would say failure, that the president,
05:02with all his power, had to say this out loud.
05:04I really want to emphasize this because it's extraordinary reporting.
05:07That's why we're leaving it up on the screen.
05:08The Times with quite a scoop here.
05:10Quote, from now on, Trump said, the secretaries would be in charge.
05:15The Musk team would only advise.
05:18Translation, that is a demotion for Elon Musk.
05:22And it wasn't Musk's only problem on Thursday.
05:26He was demoted back to the norm.
05:28That's a word that some folks in tech and in MAGA world say is a bad thing.
05:33All norms are bad.
05:34They want to disrupt everything.
05:35But, of course, it is only functional that the people picked to run the Pentagon or the
05:40State Department would actually run it, not be overruled, as apparently they were concerned
05:44they were being, about core matters of safety or staffing by this billionaire guy who goes
05:49to the meetings.
05:50Now, Wall in Washington, we should note, adding to sort of the intensity of all this, an unmanned
05:55rocket launched by Musk's company while he was in D.C., it exploded right outside the
06:01skies of the southern United States.
06:05The spectacular light show that you see here, which is all sort of visually mesmerizing,
06:11is a product of that SpaceX problem of falling rocket debris.
06:15It launched from the southern tip of Texas around 630.
06:17It was a test flight.
06:18Eight and a half minutes up there, six engines, all six of them cut out.
06:24The rocket was spinning.
06:25All communications was lost.
06:27And again, these are part of both the extraordinary business results, but also business problems
06:36that Musk oversees.
06:38All of this strangely kind of related and right in our face, as you're seeing, because
06:42this was also debated in the Cabinet meeting, according to The Times, with Musk invoking
06:46his business approach as a kind of inarguable reason that he can't be questioned in government.
06:52SpaceX, we should note, said the rocket experienced, after all that, a rapid, unscheduled disassembly.
07:00Falling debris from a failed rocket launch.
07:02We've lost several engines.
07:06Loss and confusion across South Florida.
07:08Wow, like what is all this sparkling around it?
07:11The fiery debris grounding flights at South Florida airport.
07:14Glitter, like just spread out and low, very low.
07:19Two back-to-back failures of this Starship rocket.
07:24Rapid unscheduled disassembly is kind of Elon Musk's specialty these days.
07:30This comes two months after a January test.
07:33That was before President Trump took office.
07:36That Musk-related rocket exploding over the Caribbean, the FAA investigating that incident.
07:41And it says today it will be grounding the rocket until SpaceX completes an investigation
07:47of Thursday's incident.
07:49Now, again, sometimes my job is to just state the facts, and sometimes the facts are obvious.
07:56The big difference between the January explosion and this new one, Elon Musk is now acting
08:01like he runs some of these agencies.
08:05It had to be clarified and stated in an unusual, many say dysfunctional, meeting that he doesn't
08:10run these agencies.
08:12He is working in the White House.
08:13He's trying to influence and control the FAA, the State Department, all these other
08:17agencies that we point out he has conflicts with.
08:20He lied, I'm just going to call it what it is, when he said in the Fox News interview
08:24that he would be recusing himself anywhere that there was a conflict.
08:28He's not doing that.
08:29We don't have a written or announced recusal on many of these topics.
08:32So this goes beyond just being abnormal.
08:35We are talking about what Trump cabinet secretaries view as dangerous, according to the New York
08:40Times account.
08:41What they warn is the wrong way to cut government, even though many of these people are on the
08:47side of a smaller federal government, the wrong way to cut staffing, what could be dangerous.
08:51They're talking about the risks of air travel and flights and safety.
08:56And they're saying Elon Musk is wrong.
08:59And according to the New York Times account, he and Trump, who made these decisions to
09:03give him this much power, are so wrong that the president is now saying, wait, Trump is
09:07somewhat in charge, Musk is somewhat less in charge, and the agency heads will actually
09:13run their agencies.
09:14In this White House, that could change again, but that's what the Times accounts, that's
09:17what the Times account says.
09:20Meanwhile, some Trump critics are also just muzzling themselves, fearing retribution in
09:25this semi-dysfunctional environment, a kind of chill spreading over political debate in
09:28Washington, the Times notes, with some intimidated by the prospect of being attacked online by
09:34Trump and Elon Musk, concerned about harm to their companies, frightened for the safety
09:37of their families.
09:38And again, we are talking about a government that has come back into power after a violent
09:44insurrection and on the first day pardoned people who used violence.
09:47So those online attacks can put targets on people's very literal backs and affect their
09:52families.
09:53And the history of violence, the support of violence, the pardoning of people who attacked
09:56police, that's all just in the background noise of how this stuff works now.
10:00The president, though, does still want to be out there talking to people, just not people
10:05who will test him or ask him factual questions, maybe.
10:08So he's going for the adulation he gets from right-wing media.
10:13Re-engaging Russia in diplomatic relations, something that previous leaders lacked the
10:17conviction to do so, what gave you the moral courage and conviction to step forward and
10:21lead that?
10:22Oh, I love this guy.
10:23Did you ever imagine that you would be press secretary to such a dynamic president?
10:29The Harvard poll that came out had you up nine plus points and all of your agenda that
10:33you ran on.
10:35You're accomplishing that.
10:36You've got the support of the American people, including stopping the war in Ukraine.
10:40If you can comment on the latest Harvard poll, I just came in, somebody said, I said, this
10:46was sent in by a fan.
10:47I know him well.
10:48He's sort of a stiff.
10:49Brian, you're not a stiff.
10:50He's sort of a stiff.
10:51Always say yes to the president.
10:52Meanwhile, the president is also trying to intimidate those who don't play along.
11:04And you can see clearly there what he thinks press or journalism should look like.
11:09I mean, he just wants it to be promotional, sneaking a kind of a Trump advertisement into
11:13these questions from people who are perhaps paying to play in various ways, or at least
11:17getting a red hat out of it.
11:19Donald Trump's FCC is calling for probes or beginning probes of top news outlets.
11:25And we can mention that includes our sister channel, NBC, as well as these other outlets
11:29and PR and PBS tied to government funding, where there might be more leverage if it is
11:33abused.
11:34Tech CEOs and media moguls who once criticized Trump have gotten the message, shown up at
11:40the inauguration, as we saw Jeff Bezos there turning the Washington Post into a totally
11:45different direction, pulling its endorsement plan for Harris, changing its opinion policy
11:50now to celebrate only personal liberties and free markets.
11:54These are drastic changes.
11:56All of this in the context of what I just told you today, this reporting.
12:02Why do we know about what happened inside the cabinet room?
12:06Why do we know more than the public claims of politicians that we're just saying everything's
12:12going great and we're cutting the government in a great way and it's all perfect?
12:15Why do we know what we know tonight about what actually happened in that cabinet room,
12:19about those differences between Rubio and Musk and the concern about air traffic safety,
12:24which is not and should not be a partisan or political issue.
12:28It's certainly something where any sane American would want the safest skies we can get with
12:32the cooperation of the federal government that we taxpayers fund.
12:35Why do we know about that?
12:38Because the New York Times had the journalists to go in there and do the job.
12:41We need journalists like that, just like we need science, just like we need facts at a
12:44time like this, even as Jeff Bezos takes one of the only other big papers like the
12:49Times, the Washington Post, and twists it.
12:52And I say that because we have a very special guest who's been on the inside running the
12:56Washington Post as executive editor, Marty Baron, and he's here when we're back in 90 seconds.
13:05On a night where we are drawing a lot of information from journalistic reporting, we are joined
13:09by, if I may, one of the living legends in journalism, Marty Baron, served as executive
13:14editor of the Washington Post from 2013 to 2021, including working under Jeff Bezos's
13:19leadership.
13:20His recent Atlantic article discusses what went wrong recently with Jeff Bezos.
13:24Welcome.
13:25Thank you very much.
13:27Appreciate it.
13:29I want to ask all about that.
13:31And I mentioned to the audience your experience there.
13:33But first, your reaction to what I mentioned is the journalistic reporting about what happened
13:38in that cabinet room.
13:39And what does that tell us about how this new administration is functioning?
13:44Well, as you pointed out, we need reporting like that.
13:48The New York Times did a great job with that story.
13:50I think we need revelatory reporting.
13:51I should say that the Washington Post itself is doing a lot of revelatory reporting as
13:56well, despite my complaints about the direction under Jeff Bezos most recently.
14:02Day in and day out, they're doing great work.
14:04But look, I mean, there's a lot to know about what's happening in this administration.
14:08The press has an absolute obligation to find that out and to reveal that to the American
14:12public and tell them what they need to know and what they deserve to know.
14:19When you ran the Post, of course, your full time focus is being a student of and learning
14:24about power.
14:26What do you see in the power dynamics in that room?
14:29And as I mentioned, what does it tell you that a sitting president about seven weeks
14:33in that has to say, hey, the agency chiefs will run the agencies, not this billionaire?
14:40Well, we saw a lot of this the first time around with Trump as well.
14:45It was sort of a chaotic administration.
14:47The people who were there had never worked with each other before.
14:50But now we see something different.
14:51Clearly, Musk has been given, at least up till this point, enormous power, far more
14:56power than the cabinet secretaries.
14:59And clearly, they thought they had an important job.
15:02They thought they had authority over their own agencies.
15:05And they quickly discovered that, in fact, they didn't have nearly as much authority
15:09or if any authority, really, over their agencies.
15:12Yeah, which is striking and certainly unusual, whether that, according to government experts,
15:18is any kind of functional way to run it is sort of a results question.
15:22It's also certainly not what the Constitution imagines, because the cabinet secretaries,
15:27as you know, and I think viewers have seen, are subject to congressional oversight, going
15:31under oath, those hearings.
15:32But what does that matter if they're a stand in, as you say, for someone else making the
15:35big decisions?
15:36We're going to have an exchange about this with the president, Gabe Gutierrez, here today.
15:41Take a look.
15:42Mr. President, since you last spoke about it yesterday, some details have come out about
15:47your cabinet meeting with Elon Musk and some clashes, potentially, between Secretary Rubio
15:53and Secretary Duffy.
15:54No clash.
15:55I was there.
15:56You're just a troublemaker.
15:57And you're not supposed to be asking that question, because we're talking about the
16:00World Cup.
16:01But Elon gets along great with Marco, and they're both doing a fantastic job.
16:06There is no clash.
16:07Mr. President, who, bottom line.
16:08Who are you with?
16:09Who are you with?
16:10NBC.
16:11No wonder.
16:12Mr. President, who has more authority, Elon Musk or your cabinet secretaries?
16:16Any other questions?
16:20What do you see there?
16:22Well, it's part of a pattern.
16:25You've got a president who not only tells, wants to dictate who asks new questions, asks
16:31some questions, but what questions are appropriate to even ask.
16:36You know, that's a president who really does not respect an independent press, which is
16:40provided for in the Constitution of this country, who does not really respect free expression.
16:46Look, I mean, the job of the press is to ask the president questions in this instance.
16:50He is the most powerful person in the world.
16:52He has an enormous impact on the lives of ordinary people.
16:56And it's entirely appropriate for a reporter to be asking, what happened in that meeting?
17:01And as is often the case, Trump merely denied the actual facts and claims that things are
17:07fake news when, in fact, we later learned that they're entirely true.
17:11Yeah, right.
17:13And you're kind of speaking about the baseline principle here because it's part of holding
17:17power to account, which brings us back to what I did promise we would get to.
17:22And I think I've reasonably plenty of people are interested in your tenure.
17:28You wrote about it in The Atlantic.
17:30You worked under the Bezos leadership in a different era.
17:34And you were quite direct about what you think has gone wrong and the mistakes he's making
17:38now.
17:40Tell us what you think of what Jeff Bezos is doing now with that paper that you once
17:43ran.
17:44Well, I've been very concerned about the direction of late, starting actually just prior to the
17:50election last year.
17:53He made the decision not to run a presidential endorsement for the first time.
17:58Well, it had been a tradition for almost 50 years at The Washington Post.
18:02There was only one exception when they didn't provide a presidential endorsement.
18:06That was announced only 11 days before the election.
18:10I said then that I thought it represented cowardice.
18:13It was a sign of fear about reprisals on the part of Donald Trump.
18:18Donald Trump had said for a long period of time during the campaign that he was going
18:22to seek vengeance, retribution against his political enemies.
18:25And I think that Jeff Bezos feared that kind of retribution against his other commercial
18:30interests, particularly Amazon, with its cloud computing services, and Blue Origin, which
18:36is in the commercial space area, competing with, of all people, Elon Musk.
18:41Subsequent to that, Amazon made a million-dollar donation to the inauguration.
18:47He then made a pilgrimage to Mar-a-Lago to have a late-night dinner with Donald Trump.
18:52During that dinner, he had a long discussion with—or some sort of discussion with Melania
18:57Trump about this so-called documentary that she was planning to have made about her life.
19:04And shortly after that, within two weeks, Amazon made an offer for that so-called documentary
19:10of $40 million, which was about almost three times the next highest bid, which was really
19:16extraordinary.
19:17And, of course, Jeff Bezos appeared on the dais during the inauguration, shortly after
19:23saying—after talking about the lack of a presidential endorsement, saying, all of us
19:27need to work harder to establish our credibility.
19:30Well, that did nothing for the credibility of The Washington Post, and it certainly did
19:34not signal the independence of The Washington Post.
19:37It signaled the dependence of The Washington Post.
19:40And then, most recently, he's indicated that the opinion pages, the opinion section, in
19:46print and online, would reflect his own ideology, his ideology of—how he described it was
19:52personal liberties and free markets, without actually explaining exactly what he was talking
19:57about there.
19:58I don't know anybody in the opinion section who was opposed to personal liberties, but
20:03apparently he thinks so.
20:04So I'm very concerned about that direction.
20:07I should say again that I don't see how—that it has affected the news coverage at all.
20:12The news coverage has been really excellent, day after day.
20:14I know that on your network, you've featured a lot of Washington Post reporters, and appropriately
20:23so.
20:24They've done a lot of—they've exposed a lot of what's happening in this administration
20:28in its early weeks.
20:32You've described a series of facts that relate to Jeff Bezos's conduct.
20:37Do you view him approaching The Washington Post now in a manner that is corrupt?
20:44I'm not going to use that.
20:45I wouldn't use that word.
20:46I think it's inappropriate is the word that I would use.
20:49I don't think it's—I think it's deeply unhelpful and inappropriate.
20:53Look, The Washington Post has a history of independence.
20:56Let me try—let me try one other way, Marty, because, you know, we both do this, right?
21:01Except you've done it at a very high level for a lot longer than me, so I'm not making
21:04comparisons.
21:05But let me ask the journalistic question one other way.
21:09Are you concerned that Bezos wants the newspaper to be used for his other business or personal
21:18goals, that is, something in competition or conflict with the paper simply doing the work
21:24it's supposed to do?
21:27I think he wants himself to stay out of the crosshairs of Donald Trump.
21:32He doesn't want Donald Trump to go about canceling contracts or denying contracts to
21:36Amazon cloud computing services business.
21:39He doesn't—he wants to take advantage of the fact that Blue Origin just successfully
21:43launched a rocket into orbit and can now compete with SpaceX.
21:47He doesn't want that to be obstructed.
21:49So I think he's trying to navigate the situation and make sure that Donald Trump does not seek
21:56vengeance on him by seeking—by, you know, engaging in activities that would hurt the
22:03business of his other commercial interests.
22:08Really enlightening to get your perspective on all this, again, given the experience.
22:12So we're grateful.
22:13I think a lot of people are grateful.
22:14And you've been speaking out very, very clearly and in your factual way.
22:18So Mari Barron, thank you.
22:21Thanks a lot for having me.
22:23Absolutely.
22:24Appreciate it.
22:25We have a courtroom update by the end of the hour.
22:28Stay with me for that.
22:29A twist where MAGA is alienating one of the justices that Donald Trump put on the court.
22:34Joyce Vance is here, and she's more than a legal eagle.
22:38She is a chicken farmer.
22:39And before the hour is through, we might have to get into economics in the Trump economy.
22:49The sound of chickens in the coop.
22:50You might think you were out on the farm, but increasingly you might just be in the
22:55backyard.
22:56Some people are starting to wonder if backyard chickens are the solution.
23:00Some people are taking matters into their own hands, building backyard coops, buying
23:03chickens, doing what they can.
23:08Judges dealing President Trump more losses.
23:11We've been tracking this for you.
23:12And the week we are ending had more losses than wins with a lot of pushback on Trump's
23:18power grabs.
23:19As you can see, that's this week.
23:20The last two weeks together and the red Xs that we've been using just to simplify this
23:25do far outweigh the places where Donald Trump's efforts to test power have been rewarded or
23:31affirmed in the courts.
23:33Trump also got a major blow from the highest court in the land this week, the Supreme Court,
23:38which basically said that the money he's already, that the government's already put out goes
23:43out.
23:44He can't just cancel that retroactively.
23:45We've covered that issue and his effort to basically steal power from Congress, which
23:49already appropriates funds.
23:50The federal judge also ordering the administration to go ahead with that, comply with the order
23:55and not the freeze that the Trump folks wanted by Monday.
23:59Now, Trump appointee Amy Coney Barrett joined Chief Justice Roberts.
24:04That's two Republican appointees for what is basically the five votes here that are
24:08holding the line.
24:09So they're against Trump and they're holding the line for congressional power.
24:12And there's been a backlash.
24:14Some saying Barrett is a rhino or Republican in name only, which is the kind of attack
24:18that admits that you don't even respect judges to be independent.
24:21You think they should be partisan.
24:24And then other attacks saying she was, quote, a DEI judge.
24:29This is how MAGA treats the person Trump chose.
24:32Now, Justice Barrett is very conservative in her ideology, which we can glean from things
24:37she has said and done.
24:40Her confirmation hearing was protested by feminists in Handmaid's Tale outfits.
24:47Her track record, her recent track record, has been spurned, though, because of this
24:51move, this one vote now.
24:54Basically, the MAGA crowd worried that she won't be a reliable partisan vote for Trump
24:59on everything.
25:00Now, here's another Trump veteran, Alyssa Griffin, speaking about this issue.
25:05I didn't think I would live to see the day that Amy Coney Barrett was declared a rhino
25:10by MAGA.
25:11This was somebody who was so celebrated by conservatives when she was confirmed.
25:15And it just goes to show that if you, on anything on the other side of Trump, some
25:20of his supporters will just go to the Earth's crust against you.
25:25And for the practical part of this, is this a good strategy, or are they actually risking
25:31further alienating someone who doesn't share Donald Trump's view about how far his powers
25:36go?
25:37Joyce Vance, former federal prosecutor, is here on all of this and more, next.
25:45We're joined by former federal prosecutor Joyce Vance.
25:48Welcome.
25:49We showed the Supreme Court ruling when that news broke earlier this week.
25:54Now we have this sort of politicized fallout.
25:57And there's always been a lot of heat around the court, as I think everybody knows.
26:02But anyone in a responsible position should not normalize those level of attacks that
26:08we discussed.
26:09And they also reflect a kind of a partisan citizenship, at least by some MAGA leaders.
26:14So your thoughts on that piece, the attacks on Barrett, as well as what it tells us that
26:18there may be five votes to hold back Trump's efforts to rewrite parts of the separation
26:24of powers.
26:27So look, the attacks strike me as a little bit silly, Ari, because of the posture of
26:33this case.
26:34This is early procedural skirmishing over whether or not there's going to be a stay
26:39in place while the litigation is ongoing.
26:42I would not equate the five votes that prevented the Trump administration from doing what it
26:48wants to do on this premature preliminary issue with five votes down the road when the
26:53substance comes up, which does make it really interesting that there's this strong attack
26:58on Justice Barrett, but not on the chief justice, who ruled the same way that she did.
27:03Yeah.
27:04Yeah.
27:05And you're reminding everyone, while these are clues, and we've talked about this as
27:09possible battle lines, and it affects real life, because whether the money is frozen
27:14or unfrozen is governing, but everyone who's followed Supreme Court cases knows, and you're
27:20reminding everyone, this is just a step.
27:22We haven't gotten to the full briefing, the oral arguments, and the decision that would
27:25make a precedent, right?
27:27So I appreciate your reminder on that.
27:28I'll put up the scorecard.
27:30We won't ask you to decode all of these in one minute, but it's a lot of losing.
27:36This is this week alone.
27:38What do you see as the trend here?
27:40Well, again, most of these cases are at a very early stage, with perhaps one exception,
27:49which is the firing of the head of the Office of Special Counsel, Hampton Dellinger.
27:54That case is now over, and the Trump administration will win.
27:58They will be able to remove him.
28:00But in these other cases, at least early on, the courts are preserving the status quo,
28:06saying that the Trump administration cannot have its way while the litigation is ongoing.
28:14And so do you basically think it's just far too early to glean anything, or do you think
28:19that the fact that so many of them are being paused, and that, as I've told viewers, part
28:24of the Trump strategy is to overdo it, completely claim powers they obviously don't have, like,
28:32oh, they're going to rewrite the Constitution with an executive order.
28:35I mean, that's just not ever been allowed.
28:38And then rush some of them to the Supreme Court.
28:41Do you have any view based on the early indicators of that strategy?
28:47I try to not read too much into the early moves, but some of these cases are now at
28:51the preliminary injunction stage.
28:54That's a sort of middle-of-the-road sort of a process, where judges are deciding whether
28:59to block the Trump administration from taking any of the action it wants to take for the
29:04entire pendency of the lawsuit, which, of course, can be years.
29:09And I think in some of those cases where the standard is that the plaintiffs have to show
29:13that they will be irreparably injured if the Trump administration is able to go ahead,
29:19and the judges are saying, no, Trump administration, you can't go away, we're finding that plaintiffs
29:23are showing that they will suffer irreparable injury.
29:27That is perhaps a leading indicator that the administration may be in for a hard time on
29:32these cases.
29:35Really interesting.
29:36And as always, we appreciate your precision.
29:38You're not hyping it up.
29:39You're giving us a real clear idea of how this might go.
29:43I want to turn from Joyce Vance, the seasoned lawyer, to Joyce Vance, the farmer.
29:48Those of us who know you and people who follow you online or read your newsletter might know
29:51about this.
29:52But we're going to remind viewers here on screen, you raise chickens.
29:56And the Trump agricultural secretary recently told everyone, maybe they should raise chickens
30:03if they're so concerned about the price of eggs.
30:04And so I want to tap your farm experience, Joyce.
30:08I want to talk eggonomics with you.
30:12What does your experience tell you?
30:14And is this a good idea from the Trump administration to handle egg prices?
30:19Well, even for people who have backyards or people who live in areas where they're permitted
30:26to have chickens, I would say that economics aren't very good, Ari.
30:30My husband will complain loudly about the investment in building a chicken coop and
30:37getting high quality feed for chickens.
30:39I mean, these these guys, they love cucumbers, they love herbs.
30:43You have to really make a commitment to keeping them happy if you want the good eggs.
30:50And I believe I mean, this is lighthearted, but true.
30:54These really are your chickens we have up on the screen.
30:56And you gave us a couple of rules.
30:59Can you tell us about these three rules or tips?
31:02Well, I mean, here's the deal about chickens.
31:06They actually do have really big personalities.
31:09They're almost like cats and dogs.
31:11So you become very attached to them.
31:14They can be very demanding if they want to spend time with you raising chickens.
31:18You know, it's not just a matter of getting the eggs.
31:21It's a big investment in their happiness and your happiness.
31:26And they certainly pay back in happiness, if not in eggs.
31:31See now, I feel like I'm getting a good tip from you, which is don't do it just for cheaper
31:35eggs, which was kind of a strange piece of advice from the administration.
31:38But you've also given us almost a spiritual relationship dynamic here.
31:42You don't you don't just do something for the eggs.
31:44You might get that and more out of it if if you treat your chickens like the great I guess
31:49the great animals they are in your life.
31:50So thank you, Joyce, for all of this.
31:54Any time, Ari.
31:56OK, our thanks to Joyce Vance, our resident lawyer and farmer.
32:01We're going to fit in a break, but when we come back, we are going to dig into the market
32:05problems that Trump is having and whether the purge is paying for itself or not.
32:14This week, President Trump's tariffs and possible trade war have certainly rattled the slumping
32:20markets.
32:21You may be wondering what will happen next on these issues of major consequence.
32:24And now we turn to a Trump insider who has worked in the preparation of this very administration.
32:30Brian Lanza was communications director of twenty twenty four that campaign and also
32:34worked on the twenty sixteen campaign.
32:37Welcome.
32:38Thank you, Ari.
32:39Thank you for having me tonight.
32:42Great to have you.
32:43We talked to a lot of different people, as I tell folks, and you always learn something
32:45from different people's experience.
32:47You were on those campaigns.
32:48The twenty four campaign, Trump hammered the message of prices.
32:52Take a look.
32:55I will immediately bring prices down starting on day one.
32:58We will rapidly defeat inflation.
33:00And I went on groceries.
33:01It's a very simple word, groceries, like almost, you know, who uses the word?
33:08I started using the word the groceries starting the day I take the oath of office.
33:13I will rapidly drive prices down and we will make America affordable again.
33:21Now, it's early, but he did say day one, I'll put up a couple of the statistics and let
33:28you weigh in and people know prices are up.
33:31Inflation is picking up speed again.
33:34What was described at one point as a Trump bump in the stock market is now negative since
33:39the election.
33:41And I think everybody has seen the turmoil this week and the back and forth about tariffs.
33:47So I guess the question to you is, if he's failed his campaign vow about day one, when
33:54will they do anything about all of this?
33:56First of all, I think they're doing it now.
33:58I mean, look at the very first thing he did on day one was pass executive orders to facilitate
34:04the permitting of gas exploration.
34:07That's a critical component that's going to drive down the energy cost.
34:10We all know that energy cost is playing a significant role in the inflation rate.
34:13But I think here's the important thing we have to remember.
34:15You know, the Donald Trump when he won on November, you know, the economy is a much
34:19different place than when Donald Trump when he was sworn in in January.
34:23We saw inflation accelerate during the final two years of Joe Biden or the final two months
34:27of Joe Biden where it had gone down into mid-October and since October it started to rise, accelerate.
34:32We also saw a tremendous amount of spending that took place by this administration on
34:35the way out, contrary to what the voters wanted in this election.
34:38So President Trump's having to dig out of a very deep hole before the November election
34:42and the hole got deeper as a result of the election and bitterness on the Biden campaign
34:47to try to saddle Trump, you know, with a tough economy.
34:49Listen, he's not whining about it.
34:51He's getting to work.
34:52He's doing the things that are important to drive down costs.
34:54He's bringing in investments, which is a key component to jobs and a key component to keeping
34:58the supply chain here.
35:00But let's be clear what happened.
35:01You know, I almost want to say, you know, Joe Biden rigged the economy at the end to
35:05cause damage.
35:06And President Trump's not whining about it.
35:07He's going forward doing the executive action needed to try to straighten this economy.
35:11Yeah.
35:12I mean, I don't know.
35:14We have the polling in the where people are at.
35:16I don't know.
35:17They're looking back to Biden.
35:18And you could say, look, politicians do this.
35:20Both parties blame each other.
35:22But we've got the polling.
35:23People are very concerned about President Trump's handling of this now.
35:27They're not thinking about the Biden history.
35:28I've got we could put that up, but I think it's, you know, something like a 30 percent.
35:34Yep.
35:35Approved.
35:36That's a third.
35:38Fifty four percent disapprove.
35:39So what do you say to that?
35:41Fifty four percent.
35:42And do the tariffs and threatened tariffs make the job of selling this Trump economy
35:47harder because you've seen the markets slump?
35:50Yeah, but it's also important to have context.
35:53Remember, during his first term, he instituted tariffs and that didn't rise to inflation.
35:57That didn't do the things that we're seeing now.
35:58I mean, it is a different set of marketplace from the Trump took his first term to his
36:02second term.
36:03But there are a lot of things that are similar.
36:05And when you look at the economy, the strength of the economy as it goes forward in Trump's
36:08first term, it was a direct result of investment coming in, creating new jobs, small business
36:13of creating these new these new enterprise enterprise that helped everybody move into
36:18the middle class or create a new middle class for themselves.
36:21Those things took place.
36:22Those things needed other things that take place.
36:24They needed deregulation, which took place during during President Trump's term.
36:28So you have the mechanism of President Trump bringing in investment.
36:31You have the mechanism of President Trump erasing all these regulations that stifle
36:35business to slow it down.
36:36And the goal ultimately is a humming economy.
36:39And you have to be patient.
36:40We saw it in the first term.
36:41We know what the formula looks like, contrary to what the media wants to say.
36:44The first term was tremendously success.
36:47And we know what the path looks like forward.
36:49And if you should demonstrate that, just to be clear, it's not the media.
36:54It's not the media.
36:55It's the markets.
36:56Right.
36:57I mean, look, I just went through a bunch of market data.
36:58It's not media.
37:00Well, I think you're foolish to think that the media doesn't play a role in the markets.
37:02We all we see that all the time.
37:03I think the media every day says President Trump's comments are affecting the market
37:07this way and affecting it that way.
37:08That is a direct result of media communication.
37:10So the media actually plays a small role in the market.
37:13I don't want to overquibble.
37:14Brian, I don't want to overquibble with you.
37:16But yes, the president saying things will affect the markets.
37:19I'll be as humble as I can be and say I'm not aware of anything I've said spiking or
37:24crashing stocks.
37:25Right.
37:27I think that the serious part of this is how often people around the president go at the
37:30media almost.
37:31It's like a tick.
37:32And here we're talking about, you know, real dollars and cents realities, which I don't
37:36think are media.
37:37I'll let you respond further.
37:38But let me play Donald Trump here on Fox Business, seeming to struggle a little bit to explain
37:43like what is the tariff plan?
37:44Monday, he said, hey, no backing down.
37:46By the end of the week, here we are backing down.
37:49Take a listen.
37:50There's some nervousness over your tariffs.
37:54Markets have been selling off.
37:55People are not sure how to view it.
37:57I think CEOs want to see predictability.
37:59Can you give us a sense of whether or not we are going to get clarity for the business
38:03community?
38:04Well, I think so.
38:05But, you know, the tariffs could go up as time goes by and they may go up.
38:08And, you know, I don't know if it's predictability.
38:11I think that's not.
38:12No, I think I think that they say that, you know, it sounds good to say.
38:18So that's Fox Business, one of the president's chosen places.
38:23They're telling him back.
38:24It's not clarity.
38:25I know you work for him, so I know you believe in him as a businessman and all that.
38:28But but if that's supposed to be his acumen, why did we get such a rapid reversal on tariffs
38:34this week?
38:35Can you can you explain that to us?
38:36You know, the only thing, listen, I can I can theorize from the standpoint, I think
38:39you have some people in Trump's inner circle, you know, Peter Navarro, who very much academics
38:44when it comes to economics, you know, the professors are kind of like they're Harvard.
38:48So academics always have theories on how things are going to respond.
38:52But also in the Trump administration, the beauty of Trump administration is he also
38:55has real world experience people with with Howard Ludnick, with Scott Besant.
39:00And so what you have sometimes is the theory, you know, come into play with practicality,
39:04with with implementation.
39:06And they don't match sometimes.
39:07And that's the thing about President Trump is when he recognized that the theory was
39:10a little bit off and it's not working and he's listening to the CEOs who are part of
39:14his organization and says, we have to act fast.
39:16All right.
39:17That's interesting.
39:18I've only jumped in, Brian, because I got that's interesting.
39:21I got I got.
39:23I got 45 seconds.
39:24So your view, again, you work with some of these folks, is that there was ideas, as you
39:29put it, theories, whether that's from Navarro or others on that economic wing.
39:35And you think they weren't working and it was good that Trump sort of tacked off them
39:38this week.
39:39That's kind of what you're saying.
39:40Yeah, you have to do something with respect to to the trade imbalance.
39:44And I think, you know, the administration has put together a plan based on economic
39:48theory.
39:49And you see it applied sometimes, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
39:52And what you have to do in those situations, like every businessman does, is you make adjustments.
39:56And what you've seen President Trump is make adjustments.
39:58He doesn't want to lock himself down to one particular position, whether it's going to
40:01go up or down.
40:02But he is going to say is that the imbalance needs to stop.
40:04We need to stop having this trade imbalance.
40:06We need to make sure that our products are opened up in other markets, that our banks
40:11are able to operate in Canada, that our product, our cars are able to sold in Europe, our cars
40:15are able to be sold in Asia.
40:16Those don't seem to be bad things.
40:18And we also need to make sure that our products aren't taxed additionally because they're
40:21made in America with a VAT tax in Europe.
40:24So when you look at the totality of those things, what he's fighting back, he's fighting
40:28for fairness.
40:29He's fighting how you treat us.
40:30We're going to treat you.
40:31And the difference is, is we've been suckers for so long under so many Republican and Democratic
40:35administrations that us sticking up for ourselves is shocking.
40:40And that's the change here.
40:41Yeah, we're going to step up first.
40:42And now I'm over on time.
40:46I'm over on time only because we're getting to the end of the hour and you know how TV
40:49works.
40:50But Brian Lonza, a campaign Trump vet, we like to listen and talk to a lot of different
40:54people.
40:55I appreciate you coming on.
40:56I hope you come back.
40:57Thank you for having me.