Can AI preserve human thoughts and memories forever? Experts are talking about digital immortality, biohacking, and the morality of AI-made clones. ETER9 CEO Henrique Jorge explains how AI can simulate human behaviour, with ISKCON monk Guru Gauranga Das, setting priority on the role of human morality in controlling AI.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00I want to begin this session by asking all of you one question and you have round about
00:06two minutes, so think about it and answer.
00:09The question is, who wants to live forever?
00:13And how can you answer this question?
00:14There's a QR code which you'll be seeing right now and on your tables as well.
00:18You can scan and tell us if you want to live forever and under what circumstances.
00:23We're discussing the pursuit of longevity.
00:27Guru Gaurangadas is with us, spiritual guru associated with ISKCON.
00:31Henry George is working in the direction of making digital clones, which means that long
00:37after you are dead, there will be your AI clone tweeting and putting pictures on Instagram
00:42on your behalf, interacting with your loved ones whom you've left behind.
00:46Dr. Sajeev Nair works in the area of biohacking, which is doing some doable things to prolong
00:53your lifespans and improving your lifespans.
00:56If I can't see, that's the scanner.
00:59If you can't look at it and if you can answer that question, up until the time we have the
01:04answer up, we'll begin this conversation.
01:08Living forever, wanting to live forever, not dying, letting somebody tweet on your behalf
01:14when you are long gone, I mean, I'm really not mad.
01:19That is a possibility that we are looking at.
01:22I want to begin by asking Henry about his project.
01:26Henry, in our conversation, I'm sorry, okay, so yes is the answer of about, okay, it's
01:33changing.
01:34We'll go back to that in a moment.
01:36Henry is working at creating digital clones.
01:39I told Henry it's creepy, it's bizarre, but Henry is going to explain to us why it's not
01:45as morbid as it sounds.
01:48Yes, Etern9 is a very special project because it can transform a regular user, a human user,
02:00in AI counterparts.
02:03When I was three years old, I lost my father.
02:09If this project was back then, existed, perhaps today, I could talk to him.
02:19Etern9 is a platform that could make things better for humans because with a counterpart,
02:32it could make some boring tasks that exist in every office and so.
02:42In life, we could use this company like Microsoft Copilot or so, but in a personal way.
02:52You can use this feature like a tool to better use in your life, it means work or something.
03:05Etern9 is something that could make the people think that it's something creepy, but it is
03:16not.
03:17So it's a social media platform, which is not radiated, is what you're saying.
03:21So essentially, it's just like any other social media platform, where at a point in
03:25time you can log in and create your clone.
03:27Absolutely.
03:28You can create an account right now.
03:31In the past, we have 100,000 users interested in Etern9 because this is a side effect of
03:43this project.
03:45Inside this platform, after you pass away, you could live forever.
03:51If you could just have the results up once again on how many people actually want to
03:54live forever.
03:55And I'd like to bring in Guruji here.
03:58Guruji, digital immortality, that's what we're looking at.
04:02So somebody is helping me with my social media account is one thing, somebody is doing these
04:06things on my social media platforms when I'm dead.
04:09What do you think about that?
04:11I think the most important thing is how we are remembered for what we contribute.
04:17Ultimately, a person is known by his intentions.
04:22And in the history, those who are well-known, well-respected are those who have usually
04:29been the one with the intention of selfless service.
04:34The four levels of intention is fear, greed, duty, and selfless love.
04:41So I would say that in a world ridden with digital media, what is more important is not
04:49just the fact that we maintain our digital accounts forever, but we also do things, speak
04:58things, behave with people, and contribute in a way which is remembered for posterity.
05:05Because one problem with the digital immortality is it does not monitor, it does not edit,
05:12it does not process from the perspective of ethics and values, whether an act has been
05:19done which is considered proper or improper, it will continue to maintain immortality even
05:25of negativity.
05:26So therefore, as human beings, we should know that machines are great if they assist the
05:32human beings in achieving and accomplishing their targets and their goals.
05:37But the machine, if it starts controlling the human beings, that is something which
05:42I would say is very, very dangerous and deadly.
05:46So therefore, yes, we need this assistance of the machines, but the values and the morality
05:54must be controlling them.
05:55Interviewer 1 Do you think it's going to be a scary situation,
05:57Guruji, given the fact that you have an AI which is, you know, nothing less than a monster,
06:02you know, controlling your thoughts and doing things for you on your behalf when you're
06:06not around?
06:07Because this is something that not just Henrik, but many others around the world are working
06:11at, working at creating a digital AI clones that behave like you, that mimic your behavior
06:18online.
06:19Do you think it's a scary situation?
06:20Sadhguru It's nothing new.
06:22In Ramayana, Ravana had that mystic power, he could transform his form at will and when
06:29he came to kidnap Sita, he had a different form.
06:32Later during the battle with Lord Ram, he actually created a clone of Sita Devi and
06:39right in front of Ram's eyes, cut her head and Ram felt so much overwhelmed.
06:45So this whole concept of creating clones has always existed, but from the perspective of
06:51someone who is spreading the message of peace and spirituality in the world, I feel our
06:55focus should be on how we allow human beings to really live the values by which they can
07:03create positivity in this world and allow people to remain resilient and strong.
07:09Interviewer Henrik, what is the need for a creation of a clone of this nature?
07:14Why should someone do it?
07:15Interviewer I believe we can use this platform to leave
07:20a digital legacy.
07:23I guess it is important, what the guru said is, I agree, we need to focus in the human
07:32part, the spiritual part, but I believe that all these technologies merged with human could
07:40be better.
07:43The need of this is quite important for some people, I believe that not everyone agrees,
07:50but it is normal.
07:56We don't need to see AI as a threat, because AI could be used for all good, if the humans
08:05want.
08:07So everything you want to do with this platform in the future could be useful for teaching
08:18without the real teacher.
08:21You can have a teacher in the digital world teaching to the students, like imagine Einstein
08:30could live in this platform and teaching the students directly in the digital way.
08:41But I must say, this kind of technology and the AI itself don't have a soul, so we need
08:51to look to this like a tool, like a technology, not like a human.
08:58So we have to control it, is what you are saying?
09:01Absolutely.
09:02How does one control it?
09:03And Sajeev, are you okay with the idea?
09:04You are working in the area of longevity, but this is longevity of a bizarre kind.
09:09Are you okay with this idea?
09:12I think it's a different concept altogether, what George is saying.
09:17I think when we talk about biohacking, we are talking about doing something with your
09:22own body and your own mind and your own brain.
09:25It's not creating your digital twin.
09:27So because, you know, biohacking also is not a new concept, but at the same time now it
09:34is really packaged in a better way from the western world.
09:37But most of the concepts if you look at in biohacking can see that most of it has gone
09:41from the ancient wellness wisdom of India, whether it is grounding, whether it is concepts
09:49like breath works.
09:51Primarily, the objective of any biohacking technique is to enhance the performance, number
09:57one, and number two is definitely extend your health span, not the lifespan.
10:02No point in just living on medicine, you know.
10:05How can you live longer with absolute health and vitality?
10:09That's the most important thing people are asking right now.
10:11And we have the solution right now.
10:13When we talk about mortality and all those kinds of stuff, yeah, there is a lot which,
10:19especially with the epigenetics coming in the forefront, a lot is being discussed where…
10:24We'll talk about epigenetics in just a moment from now because I want to get into it and,
10:28you know, talk a little more about digital clones.
10:33You know, Henrik, you said that we can't let technology dominate us.
10:36I want to ask you how does this one, you know, control this monster when it comes to your
10:42digital clone, you know, somebody doing things on your behalf?
10:46I believe this technology could be a monster if the human also as a monster because imagine
10:57my clone, if I'm a bad person, my digital version is also a bad person.
11:04So, in this kind of way, I don't put aside the monster thing because it's a real…
11:21The AI threat is real, it's here.
11:25But there are tools and regulations that could stop this.
11:31It's very hard.
11:32We need to worry a lot about this but it's something that we couldn't stop because the
11:41technology is rapidly evolving and we must run with that.
11:51You know, I want to ask you, Gauranga Dasji, that the fact that even in religion, even
11:57in spirituality, there is a concept of rebirth.
12:00How is that different?
12:02That concept when we accept rebirth, how is that different from wanting to live forever
12:06in this form that Henrik is suggesting?
12:09In the Gita, Krishna says,
12:11dehinosmin yatha dehe kaumaram yavanam jara tatha dehantara prathir dhiras tatranam yati
12:16Gita speaks about five principles, a supreme controller, Ishwar, Jiva, the soul, prakriti
12:23nature, kala time and karma action.
12:26So the Jiva, the soul remains eternal and the description of that is given in great
12:31detail in the Gita.
12:32At the time of death, the soul departs and enters into another body.
12:37So even during this life, the transmigration is happening because if a 60-year-old man
12:42tells his grandchild, hey, this is the picture of me when I was 12 years old.
12:49So he refers to me, although every cell of his body has practically changed over the
12:5450 years, but there is something within which has not changed and that unchanging I is the
13:00soul.
13:01So today, with the digital explosion, there have been a lot of benefits.
13:05But let's face it, the mental health crisis is such that 370 suicides happening in India
13:10every single day.
13:12And if we only remain focused on enhancing people's skill, but people are losing their
13:17will in helpless condition, people are becoming hopeless.
13:21And that's how I also got attracted to Gita because one of my classmates tried to attempt
13:24suicide because he got the silver medal instead of gold medal, because we have a tendency
13:30to compare.
13:31And then he said, I just cannot tolerate myself coming number two.
13:35And in the same exam, I had four or five of my other friends who failed in three, four
13:40subjects and they were moving around the campus peacefully, blissfully.
13:43And I said, hey, how come you guys are moving around peacefully?
13:46And they said, our philosophy in life is simple, entering college is our job, leaving college
13:51is the job of the college.
13:54So therefore, today, the digital explosion is creating a lot of benefits, agreed.
14:03But let's look at how it's impacting the ability of human beings to control over themselves.
14:10Here we are talking about controlling some clone.
14:13People are losing control over themselves.
14:15Night is meant for sleeping, 70% of the world leaders are not able to sleep on time.
14:21And what kind of control are we talking about?
14:23So let's look at discipline, which is a fusion of intention and action.
14:27And that's what the Gita is focused on.
14:30And I definitely feel the human society needs a ton of self-control than what they are currently
14:38going through.
14:39You know, I also want to ask you, the Western world where a lot of these concepts are getting
14:42developed is no different in that sense.
14:45They're more disturbed in a way, given the kind of access that they have also to, you
14:50know, digital accounts, gadgets, the kind of competition that we've seen.
14:54The Western world, of course, is there in India as well at this point in time.
14:58But more so the need for bliss is there in your part of the world as compared to ours,
15:03isn't it?
15:04Absolutely.
15:05No, I'd like to get in your comment and then Henrik's comment as well.
15:08Yeah, absolutely.
15:09Because when Srila Prabhupada went to London with the Bhagavad Gita.
15:14So one reporter asked him, Swamiji, why you came to London?
15:17And he said, well, for last 300 years, the British took from India gold, emerald, rubies,
15:23all kinds of jewels and wealth, but they forgot to loot the most important and precious jewel,
15:29the Bhagavad Gita.
15:30I've come to do home delivery of the Gita here.
15:33So therefore, I would say that, yes, the need for self-control and connecting with one's
15:40own self is there globally.
15:43This cone is currently present in 1100 locations across the world in 120 countries and where
15:49people have never heard the word Krishna before, but it's a science.
15:53The soul connects to the supreme just like fish connects to water.
15:57Henrik, the argument, of course, is that this will upset the natural order of things as
16:02well.
16:04Taking the words from the guru, I must agree with you because the people are confused about
16:18all this acceleration, technology is not the important, you don't need to put the technology
16:36on the top.
16:37You need to put the human being on the top first.
16:41Then you can use the technology to make a better person.
16:50There is a need of balance of all this.
16:55In my project, I don't want to make the machines or the digital clones on the top.
17:04I make this project to create some kind of balance between the human and the machine.
17:14The machine doesn't have a soul, absolutely, and I don't believe that will be a soul in
17:21the near future, nor self-awareness or something.
17:27So we need to not go so fast, imagine the AI that will take the world or something.
17:37No, I guess we don't need to be afraid of that.
17:40Okay, no need to be afraid.
17:42Okay, now let's talk about the pursuit of longevity as well.
17:45It's not just about wanting to live forever online long after you're gone, but also prolonging
17:50your lifespans.
17:51People world over are doing it.
17:53Sajeev works in that area of biohacking.
17:55Sajeev, quickly if you could just tell us what are the doable things that people are
17:59doing for biohacking and why has it picked up so much in not just in India but all over
18:04the world right now?
18:05Yeah, that's a very good question.
18:06In fact, wellness as a space has been growing for the last two decades.
18:11But all of a sudden the biohacking space has started growing only because of one reason
18:15that now everything is measurable and monitorable.
18:19Now this smart ring is reading my sleep, my heart rate, my respiratory rate, everything
18:25is being read by this small ring.
18:27And you can have so many devices, IOTs and AIs have really revolutionized.
18:31I got on my mobile, I got the AI powered super app which can actually read my face, straight
18:38away tell me about the blood pressure, about even to the extent of reading your cholesterol
18:42level without touching your skin.
18:45So that's the scale at which the technology and science has moved in.
18:48So when you have so much of things happening and you know, you all must be knowing that
18:52one area on which AI and IOT has done an excellent job is in the health tech.
18:57Now with that, you know, we don't require to really depend on other people.
19:02People can take charge of their own health and well-being, there's no doubt about it.
19:06Only thing is that you should be knowing.
19:08Because right from your DNA, you can decode your DNA, you can come to know about all the
19:12kinds of gene variants which you are carrying, which can lead to different diseases.
19:17And you can also understand the triggers which can make the gene express.
19:22And once you find the triggers, you can block the triggers.
19:26Once you block the triggers, you are actually stopping the lifestyle disease to happen in
19:30your life.
19:31That's why well-known geneticists are talking about death is going to be optional by 2045.
19:37And you know, there is… there are some genetic scientists who are already declared that the
19:42child who is going to live more than thousand years is already born.
19:45It's advancement of epigenetic science because you cannot modify, you cannot change your
19:50genes but you can change the epigenetics.
19:53That means you can influence the gene from expressing or not expressing through external
19:59factors including what Guruji and what modern science and all those people are practicing
20:04and that's what…
20:05Barkha Dutt And prolong your life by how many years?
20:07And prolong your life by how many years?
20:09When you are saying that death is optional, that it's… that shows that, that gives
20:14that answer.
20:16I think there is no harm in start dreaming about celebrating your hundredth birthday
20:20after completing a five kilometer run with your great grandchildren.
20:24It is possible.
20:25Barkha Dutt Guruji, possible?
20:28Sadhguru Impossible.
20:32So we are basically in two different industries.
20:42Automobile industry is one industry, travel industry is another industry.
20:46So they help keep the body fit like an automobile, make better and better model of Rolls Royce,
20:54Porsche, Audi or whatever so that it can run smoother with minimum maintenance and stuff
21:01like that.
21:02That's called improving the quality of the body.
21:06But we are in the business of helping people get the right GPS destination, the direction.
21:14So therefore, if your focus is only on speed and comfort of the vehicle, someone has also
21:23got to ensure that the vehicle is moving in the right direction.
21:27So the Gita is offering multiple options of what kind of destination is possible for
21:33the eternal soul after death.
21:37And that's what all spiritual traditions are engaged in helping people evolve.
21:41So in fact, spirituality is very systematic, very organized.
21:45It's just not been communicated properly and therefore there is a gap between what it has
21:50to say and what people understand.
21:52Just like I was giving the Gita to somebody in Mumbai and the guy looked at me and said,
21:56Yeh Gita free mein hai na?
21:58I said, no, it is for seventy rupees.
22:00He said, Swamiji, Krishna spoke Gita to Arjuna free, why you are charging seventy rupees?
22:07I said, sir, Krishna spoke to Arjuna in Kurukshetra.
22:10This is Mumbai, seventy rupees is transport charge.
22:13Sadhguru May I just add one point to what Guruji said?
22:17You know, when we are talking about optimization or optimizing, it's not just the body, it's
22:22the body, brain and the mind.
22:25We don't believe that we can just optimize your body and, you know, leave the other parts.
22:29You know, we need to optimize the entire thing.
22:31Guruji, the only thing what we are talking about is that right now with the technology
22:35and the kind of devices, you can do a much better job.
22:38Barkha Dutt But it's very different from working towards
22:40becoming healthy and the other thing that we are talking about is prolonging your life,
22:44doing things by doing DIY things to your body, bio-hacking.
22:48Sadhguru What's the harm in living absolutely healthy
22:51for hundred and twenty years and contributing the best to the society?
22:54Barkha Dutt Is that the natural order of things?
22:57Sadhguru Well, just to set the record right, Sajeeva,
22:59I'm also from IIT Bombay, so I have a lot of technology in me.
23:04But what attracted me to the Gita is the fact that we are giving the dimension of the right
23:10direction and destination.
23:12So therefore there is absolutely no problem in keeping the vehicle well-oiled, well-maintained,
23:17going fast, but which direction, what's the purpose?
23:22And therefore they say the clock and the compass, if you are only focused on the clock, increasing
23:27the speed, but forget about the compass, the direction, then you don't know whether you
23:32are going over the hill or not.
23:34So that's the point.
23:35Barkha Dutt So there is a demon that could be unleashed
23:37here as well?
23:38Is that…?
23:39Sadhguru Absolutely, there are not…
23:40There are too many demons because today the problem which people are facing is, I call
23:45it the three cancers of the mind – comparing, complaining and criticizing.
23:50And it's overwhelming people like never before and therefore mental health has become such
23:55a big challenge.
23:56Parents are in great anxiety and I would say that in our spiritual traditions there used
24:02to be a recommendation of fasting, upvas, and that was upvas from food.
24:08But we need to add another dimension of upvas, fasting from your gadgets and from online
24:13and not being online for at least twenty-four hours.
24:17That's a bigger challenge than remaining away from food today.
24:19Because someone told me, you know, I can live without my wife but not without Wi-Fi.
24:23Barkha Dutt That's a good bio-hack.
24:26Barkha Dutt Also, Henrik is working in the area of making
24:32people hook to their gadgets even after they're long gone, so that's another story.
24:35I want to ask you Henrik, do you want to prolong your life the way Sajeev is trying to?
24:41Henrik J. Kaur To be honest, I guess not.
24:43Barkha Dutt You don't want to live a hundred years?
24:45You'd rather have your clone tweet about what you want to tweet long after you're gone?
24:50And not do it yourself?
24:51Henrik J. Kaur In that way, yes, but biological, I guess not.
24:56Because the question you said in the start of this session, who wants to live forever,
25:04is a good question, I guess.
25:06Not the claimant, but asking to reflect.
25:16Without anything that only the human have, there is no meaning in this life, I guess.
25:26We need to also look to the technology as working in progress.
25:35But the real attention, as I said before, is the human.
25:39We need to improve not only the machines, not only the technologies that surround us,
25:50but in first place, ourselves.
25:53We need to be better humans.
25:57I know the world is crazy in these few years with the rising of the AI, generative AI.
26:10And so it was very rapidly all this growing.
26:15And I guess the humans are still not ready.
26:18Barkha Dutt Right, humans aren't ready, really running
26:22out of time.
26:23But I want to bring in this aspect.
26:24Because you are into biohacking, bizarre things that are getting being done by people, putting
26:29themselves in oxygen chambers, you know, draining their blood plasma from their bodies, putting
26:35back the blood of their son, their youngest son in an attempt to look younger, and people
26:40are following it.
26:41How dangerous is it?
26:42Anupam Kher You need a proper analysis to be done.
26:46Barkha Dutt Who is going to do that analysis?
26:47Anupam Kher There are functional medicine doctors who
26:50are trained on this kind of aspects.
26:52Without doing this kind of things, and just by watching some videos, if people start doing
26:56it, that's harmful, definitely.
26:58You are saying the oxygen chamber, oxygen chamber, hyperbaric oxygen has got got plus
27:03and negative, you know, and most of the people when it when it is, it is actually being,
27:08you know, many cases of even I can give you autistic cases, we are seeing extremely great
27:13result when it comes to hyperbaric oxygen.
27:15So there are good things around most of the things.
27:18The only thing is that you need to know your genetic profile, number one, and you need
27:22to know how your metabolism, how your entire, entire systems are working, which has to be
27:27properly analyzed.
27:28That is what I said at measure…
27:29Barkha Dutt Genetic kundali is more important nowadays
27:31than anything else.
27:32Anupam Kher Genetic is not the only thing, but your genes
27:35are carrying the information which can actually express us diseases.
27:39So once you know about it, and once you know that what is triggering that gene to express
27:43or switch on, and if you can block the trigger, that can actually help you to actually extend
27:48your health span.
27:49Barkha Dutt Concluding words to you, Guruji, I want to
27:51ask you the danger that this is, biohacking up to a limit, but who knows the limits nowadays.
27:56Do we know the limits of using our phones?
27:58We don't.
27:59So all of this that is being blindly followed on social media by so many people even in
28:03India, doing all kinds of things and then harming themselves.
28:06Sadhguru If someone takes a cricket ball in their hand
28:11and goes to a beautiful house which has glass panes and starts throwing on the glass pane,
28:16that would be destructive.
28:18Yes the cricket ball is great, but he needs to be in the right place, in the right stadium,
28:23in the right field, under the right coach, and that same cricket ball can help him get
28:28glory and help the country get glory.
28:31Similarly, if the principle of keeping one's life alive for long time is taken into consideration,
28:40in Sanskrit, asu means life breath and asu ramante iti asura.
28:49You must have heard the word asura.
28:51Asura basically comes from the Sanskrit, asu ramante iti asura means one whose mission
28:58is to keep his life breath going at any cost, even at the cost of others' lives.
29:05So that kind of psychology is called asura.
29:10Therefore, to have the desire to keep the life prolonged in a healthy manner is something
29:15which is always recommended and the entire science is given in our Vedic scriptures called
29:20Ayurveda, which is how to enhance life in the proper bona fide manner, managing one's
29:28sleep, recreation, work and proper eating habits.
29:34And therefore, as again I said, we are not against technology, we are not against modernization,
29:40we are not against digital, but the question is who is controlling whom?
29:47Who's controlling who and how does one and why is it important to now go back to our
29:51basics I think should be the focus.
29:53I'm going to thank all of you for joining in with your thoughts at this point in time.
29:58Thank you so much.