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00:00:00I woke up in the middle of the night on, I guess it was December the 26th, 1985 in a
00:00:10little room full of what appeared to me to be nightmare creatures.
00:00:15That picture is the beginning of contact between the ordinary human being and the visitors.
00:00:22When I walked out of Dr. Klein's office, I realized that it had been real.
00:00:28They were real.
00:00:29The government belongs to them.
00:00:32Hello everybody.
00:00:33Welcome to WatchMojo and the Unveiled Podcast.
00:00:36I am your host, Rob, and today's guest is Whitley Streber.
00:00:40He is a prolific author of both fiction and nonfiction.
00:00:43His 1987 book, Communion, is one of the most iconic tellings of an alien encounter that's
00:00:49ever been written.
00:00:50It was made into a film starring Christopher Walken and it's widely referenced to this
00:00:54day.
00:00:55He joins me to talk about that as well as his latest book called The Fourth Mind and
00:00:59the general state of UAP disclosure in the world today.
00:01:03Hello, Whitley.
00:01:04Thanks for joining us today.
00:01:06It's my pleasure.
00:01:07Why don't we get started with a little bit of background on yourself for anybody who
00:01:10isn't maybe familiar with your work or what you do.
00:01:13How did you get thrust into this world of aliens and UAP?
00:01:18Well, I was literally thrust into it.
00:01:21I woke up in the middle of the night on, I guess it was December the 26th, 1985, in
00:01:31a little room full of what appeared to me to be nightmare creatures.
00:01:36It didn't occur to me that I was abducted by aliens, but I thought I was having an exceptionally
00:01:44terrible nightmare.
00:01:46I couldn't not wake up and there was an assault.
00:01:54Two things happened.
00:01:55Once a needle was put into the side of my head and also I was raped with a machine that
00:02:01caused a sexual response, an erection, but no, I mean, it was not a sexy experience at
00:02:07all.
00:02:08It was something done to the nerves and semen was removed from my body.
00:02:16I was beside myself.
00:02:18I had no idea where I was or what was going on and I could not move.
00:02:26The next thing I knew, I woke up in the morning in my bed with this bizarre sense of having
00:02:37had a horrible night and I thought to myself I'd seen an owl in the house because these
00:02:47beings had these big black eyes.
00:02:52Over the next six weeks, I struggled with this.
00:02:56First when I realized I had been injured, my doctor told me I had a lesion in my rectum.
00:03:03I called the criminal investigation division to try to get, because I thought I had been
00:03:09assaulted.
00:03:10In other words, there's no, the idea of aliens never even occurred to me, not then.
00:03:17I'd had some of this experience when I was a child, but it was long forgotten.
00:03:23Not an abduction, but there was other things that happened when I was a child.
00:03:28And so I gradually came to the conclusion after eliminating everything else that it
00:03:39had to have been a real experience.
00:03:43A man named Bud Hopkins had, I had found him, his name in the back of a book about UFOs
00:03:52that my brother had given me and understand I had not thought about flying saucers since
00:03:56I was 12.
00:03:58And it just wasn't even in my mind at all.
00:04:03And so I read this book of, it was a Christmas gift and I wouldn't have read it, but I was,
00:04:16I was remembering these eyes and I was somewhere in the back of my mind was that if this happened
00:04:22and they really did look like that, then that was what it was.
00:04:26And sure enough, at the back of the book, there was this description of an event just
00:04:34similar to what happened to me.
00:04:37And so I called this man, Bud Hopkins, who was mentioned in the book, and he turned out
00:04:41to live just a couple of blocks from us in Manhattan.
00:04:46So we went to see him and I'm still was very skeptical and so was my wife and he wanted
00:04:53to hypnotize me.
00:04:54And I thought to myself, here's an artist.
00:04:56I don't see any psychologist diplomas on his wall.
00:05:00So no, absolutely not.
00:05:03He proceeded to get me into touch with Dr. Donald Klein, one of the world's leading forensic
00:05:09hypnosis, hypnotists, and the head of the New York state department of psychiatry at
00:05:14the time.
00:05:16And who had proven his abilities in forensic hypnosis.
00:05:22And don't ever let anybody tell you hypnosis doesn't work.
00:05:26That's something that comes out of social engineering and the defense in the intelligence
00:05:33field.
00:05:35It does work in the hands of somebody who knows what they're doing.
00:05:39And Dr. Klein certainly did.
00:05:42And me and Dr. Klein were both laughing about Bud Hopkins' ideas and theories until the
00:05:48hypnosis.
00:05:51And it was appalling, absolutely appalling.
00:05:55The tapes for it can be found on my website, actually, on unknowncountry.com.
00:06:02They still exist.
00:06:03And that's when it began.
00:06:05When I walked out of Dr. Klein's office, I realized that it had been real.
00:06:11They were real.
00:06:12That sounds like a horrifying experience.
00:06:15And how did that shape your worldview moving forward?
00:06:18Changed my worldview a little bit.
00:06:20Must have.
00:06:21Yeah.
00:06:22Well, the first thing that happened was we discussed, my wife and I discussed, should
00:06:28we sell our cabin?
00:06:30We'd had a little cabin, a second home in upstate New York.
00:06:33We'd just bought it the March before and not go back there.
00:06:38And she was not of that mind at all.
00:06:42She said, why should we abandon it?
00:06:44Why should we ignore it?
00:06:46It's one of the most extraordinary things I've ever heard happen to anybody.
00:06:50At the time, we had no idea there were a lot of people as it happened to.
00:06:55Never occurred to us.
00:06:56So I went to, I got to know Bud Hopkins and a few of the people who worked with him.
00:07:02And I mean, the other close encounter witnesses, we used to go to their meetings.
00:07:08They seemed like a nice bunch of people.
00:07:10And Bud was a good, earnest man, perhaps a little bit in and over his head when it comes
00:07:16to this, but he wouldn't be.
00:07:18So we did decide to go back to the cabin, even though we had at that time a seven-year-old
00:07:29child.
00:07:30It never dreamed that they would come back.
00:07:33And I began to think, what if I try to reconnect with them?
00:07:41So I said to Annie, my wife, now deceased, I said, Annie, what if I, how would we go
00:07:46about that?
00:07:47I said, what I think is I should go out in the woods to where it happened, which I had
00:07:52identified the area pretty clearly from my memories of being, of the beginning of the
00:07:57abduction, which took place in the woods, which I remembered quite clearly under Dr.
00:08:02Smith's guidance.
00:08:04So I said to her, why don't we go out tonight and just show that we know this and we're
00:08:13interested to demonstrate this?
00:08:16She said, well, it didn't happen to me and I'm not going out there at night, no way.
00:08:21Anyway, we've got a little boy here, I can't leave him.
00:08:25So that was the first night I started going out in the woods.
00:08:30The first night I couldn't get past the end of the yard.
00:08:32It was very frightening, very, very frightening.
00:08:39And over the next months and years, I did go out in the woods.
00:08:46I went deep into the woods in the dead of the night many times.
00:08:50And while I did not often see the visitors there, they did reconnect with me profoundly.
00:08:57And that's my life now.
00:08:59Was it a difficult decision to write Communion and share your story with the entire world?
00:09:04I know there was a fair bit of skepticism and criticism at the time, but, you know,
00:09:0940 years almost later, have you seen a shift in that perception as time has gone on?
00:09:17Well, first of all, there was no difficulty deciding to write it, although there probably
00:09:23should have been, because I had no idea of any of that.
00:09:26But said there may be 50 people had had these experiences.
00:09:31And so I thought I was writing a fascinating story, a sort of an excursion into another
00:09:38field because of this remarkable thing that had happened.
00:09:44Little did I know that there was a big government deal going on and all kinds of ghastly craziness
00:09:54and so forth.
00:09:55And the book just exploded in my face, frankly.
00:09:59I had no idea.
00:10:01The publisher, the editor called me and said, we're getting big sales on the West Coast.
00:10:07And that was the first time I knew that something unusual was happening with that book.
00:10:13Now I understand that the cover, which incidentally, the original is right back behind me.
00:10:19You can see it beside the picture of my beloved wife, who I left and died in 2015.
00:10:28In any case, that image right there triggered memories in hundreds of thousands, maybe millions
00:10:41of people around the world and still does.
00:10:45That picture is the beginning of contact between the ordinary human being and the visitors.
00:10:52Amazingly.
00:10:54And no, I had no, if I had known that at the time, I would have frozen solid.
00:10:59I would not have been able to write a word.
00:11:02How was it immediately received when it was published in 1987?
00:11:07And over the years, has there been a shift in the perception of your story?
00:11:13The immediate response was a nice review in the New York Times.
00:11:21And then two things have happened over the years.
00:11:24First, the intelligence community went to work on the media immediately because they're
00:11:29very involved in this and they have excellent social engineering controls.
00:11:36And before I knew it, there were stories all over the place saying lie detectors don't
00:11:40really work, which of course they use in the CIA all the time to vet their officers.
00:11:48And hypnosis isn't real.
00:11:51And all of this guff that started going on and the media, always obedient media, became
00:12:02hostile to me over the first few weeks.
00:12:05And well, by the time I was on my author tour, they were snickering about the rectal probes
00:12:11and things.
00:12:12And I realized, you know, Whitley, you were raped and these people are laughing at your
00:12:17rape.
00:12:18That went on for 30 years.
00:12:20I had that agonizing and horrifying experience laughed at.
00:12:26I became a figure of fun because I was raped.
00:12:30And I have a lot there's now it's a little different, though, a little different.
00:12:38There's a whole contingent of people in your field and mine, the podcasting business, who
00:12:45will not talk to me.
00:12:48And in the intellectual community who will not talk to me, who will not allow me to speak
00:12:53at their conferences and so forth.
00:12:55And these are all people who are connected in one way or another with the intelligence
00:13:02community or know someone who has said to them, stay away from Whitley.
00:13:09And they're still the what the happening within the Air Force and within a lot, a significant
00:13:23part of the intelligence community is they want to reform this as a religious experience.
00:13:30In other words, they're working for the visitors because they do not it is absolutely no connection
00:13:39to our religions.
00:13:40There is a there's some people out there who want to say it's the Blessed Virgin Mary and
00:13:46relate it to the second coming of Christ and on Easter of 2026 and stuff.
00:13:53Those are all people who have connections to the government, because the especially
00:13:58the Air Force is very religious.
00:14:02And they see this in terms of good and bad angels.
00:14:07And of course, I'm the bad angel, naturally.
00:14:11Why?
00:14:12Because I don't believe they're guff, frankly, it has nothing to do or very little to do
00:14:19with our religious traditions.
00:14:22Our visitors would might like us to think that they are already embedded in our society.
00:14:29But if you read especially the new book, The Fourth Mind, it shows why that cannot be true.
00:14:36These are recent arrivals.
00:14:38The Jacques Vallée's book, Passport to Magonia, shows not that they've been here for a long
00:14:48time, but that there have been many incursions into our world over the years.
00:14:55And why wouldn't there be?
00:14:57You know how many planets there are in this universe?
00:15:01We've been able to establish a planet, some planet density averages using the Webb Space
00:15:07Telescope, and to a lesser extent, Hubble.
00:15:11And the calculation is there are 21.6 sextillion planets in this universe, and trillions in
00:15:26this galaxy.
00:15:28Therefore, it would be astonishing if the same species had visited us twice.
00:15:39What we look at as we look at our past and see indications of this is not these people,
00:15:46the same people, but many people come and take a look at us and pass us by.
00:15:54They've been passing us by when they'd seen that we couldn't respond to them usefully.
00:16:06If you read Ezekiel's wheel, God knows what he thought he was seeing.
00:16:11But one thing he couldn't do was even begin to communicate meaningfully with whoever was
00:16:15there.
00:16:17And the Apocalypse is the same way.
00:16:19They thought of them as gods or demons and stuff.
00:16:23Now, the US Air Force still does.
00:16:27And they want them to be angels, but they think they're also demons here.
00:16:33And guess who's in league with the demons?
00:16:35You're looking at him.
00:16:37And I am not either.
00:16:39I could not be less interested in those old mythologies.
00:16:44They have nothing at all to do with what's happening.
00:16:49I definitely would like to talk about the new book.
00:16:51I read it and there's so many interesting things in there.
00:16:55But just to follow up on the point of the intelligence community wanting to relate this
00:17:00to a religious event, what would be the motive for doing that?
00:17:05Fear is the motive.
00:17:06They are aware, very aware of the abductions.
00:17:10I know that for a simple, straightforward reason.
00:17:14Dr. David W. Webb, who was a space scientist of great stature.
00:17:20And if you look David W. Webb up on Wikipedia, you'll see he was consulting with every single
00:17:28alphabet there was.
00:17:30He came into our lives in 1986.
00:17:38And at the time, he was rather vague about his origins.
00:17:42I had been told by Stanton Friedman, the UFO investigator, that he wanted, I think it was
00:17:47Stanton, wanted to contact me.
00:17:49And so I always say, yes, I'm a very affable person.
00:17:52I like people.
00:17:54So I'm not the kind of person who hides.
00:17:56I'm not a celebrity.
00:17:57I'm me.
00:17:58So anyway, he came up to the, he first, he came and had dinner with us in New York.
00:18:05Then he came up to the cabin and he was oddly knowledgeable and helpful.
00:18:12And he introduced me to an allergist and said he seemed to know that if the visitors touched
00:18:17me, there would be an allergic, could be an allergic reaction.
00:18:21He said things like that they could suppress it if they wanted to, but they might not.
00:18:26And so we've, the allergist started giving me shots and the house was filled with epinephrine
00:18:35injectors in every room because we had guests up who would also see the, meet the visitors
00:18:43in the house.
00:18:45And if someone had an overt extreme reaction, the epinephrine injectors were there.
00:18:52That all came from David.
00:18:54So the government knew, it knew in 1985, it knew a lot in 1985.
00:19:01Right now there's an FBI investigation going on.
00:19:05It's a national security investigation and it has one purpose so that the FBI can, after
00:19:13doing essentially nothing, announce that it has investigated the abductions and they
00:19:19never happened.
00:19:21Then the next step is to make this into a religious experience.
00:19:27In other words, the government belongs to them.
00:19:31This is their policy being enacted.
00:19:34It's not ours.
00:19:36We are going to end up in a religious experience with somebody who simply wants a convenient
00:19:44way of exploiting us.
00:19:47Your book is very interesting because it's divided into two parts.
00:19:50The first section being about the visitors and the second part being about us humans.
00:19:56And the first part goes into great deal.
00:19:58Actually it's based on a Reddit post, which I recognized immediately because at the time
00:20:04that it was circulating, my friend sent it to me.
00:20:06I read it as soon as it came out and I was pleased to see that it was talking about the
00:20:10same post in your book where this anonymous scientist was going through the different
00:20:17biological characteristics of the entities that we commonly refer to as greys that are
00:20:23being held by the intelligence agencies.
00:20:30You basically took his information and cross-referenced it with your own experiences.
00:20:38Can you elaborate on that a little bit?
00:20:42Someone sent me the Reddit post at some point.
00:20:44I have no idea whether or not it was when it came out or not.
00:20:53As I was reading it, something jumped out at me.
00:20:58It was the means by which these beings evacuate waste from their bodies.
00:21:06It's very unique.
00:21:09And I had seen it done.
00:21:10I had watched them doing it and knew what it was.
00:21:15I had mentioned it in passing to Bud Hopkins and he was so disgusted.
00:21:19He said, that must be your imagination.
00:21:22And I just dropped it.
00:21:24Then there it is in the Reddit document.
00:21:25I'd never published it anywhere.
00:21:28No one had ever mentioned it.
00:21:30It's not anywhere in the literature.
00:21:32But there it was.
00:21:35And I thought, my God, this must be real.
00:21:39So I read the document and I made it my business to learn genetics from the ground up.
00:21:46And I figured out the anatomy of the visitors and how it related.
00:21:54They had showed me at one point an eidetic image of one of them in my mind's eye, where
00:22:02it was like a television screen.
00:22:04And it showed it all of its workings.
00:22:08And we also, they came into the house quite frequently.
00:22:12And we saw them.
00:22:13I mean, so yeah, I was able to go through that document in detail and compare my life
00:22:22experience to its descriptions.
00:22:26And boy, that has done, it's selling like crazy, just like communion.
00:22:31But just like communion, it has really annoyed the Defense Department.
00:22:36And I have to wonder how long it'll be available, because they'll come after Amazon
00:22:41eventually. And these companies, they will comply with anything they're asked to do.
00:22:49And so I hope it stays available, that's all I can say.
00:22:54I hope so too.
00:22:55Just to pick up on the timeline that we had spoken about, so you tried to reestablish
00:23:00contact with the visitors by going back to the area where you had the memories of being
00:23:07abducted.
00:23:09How did things progress from there?
00:23:11You mentioned that they then were coming into your house and you were seeing them all the
00:23:14time.
00:23:15So how did this relationship develop over time?
00:23:17Here's how it developed.
00:23:20It was, it worked well.
00:23:25First there were indications, very subtle indications in the house that they had been
00:23:32around.
00:23:33We would hear tapping footsteps on the porch in front and see these holes in the ground.
00:23:40And I had seen their feet.
00:23:42They look like goat's feet almost, but they're actually fused toes.
00:23:46They look like they're walking on their toes.
00:23:48And they would leave these holes in the ground where they had moved.
00:23:55And also in the snow, they also move a few feet above the ground.
00:23:59They levitate and glide along very fast too, boy.
00:24:06So that was all going on.
00:24:10And it started after I started going out in the woods, but we couldn't really pin it down.
00:24:16And so I started going into the woods where I made a stone circle and meditate in the
00:24:22circle, the certain type of meditation that I had learned was important to them.
00:24:28And what happened during the meditation, it's hard to put it into words, is that there was
00:24:34a communication of a kind that we don't actually have.
00:24:38It's sort of like telepathy, but it's not quite that way.
00:24:42In other words, it's not in words.
00:24:44It's in real as a sort of, it feels like a series of realizations that are coming into
00:24:51your mind out of nowhere.
00:24:54And I began to respond by saying that, let's have a meeting.
00:24:58I want to sit down on a bench.
00:24:59I even had a bench built nearby that we could sit on together and have a meeting.
00:25:06And one morning in February of 1988, I think it was, or maybe 87, there came three loud
00:25:14noises, like the sound of a chauffeur or a horn from the woods, above the woods.
00:25:21And I thought, they're here.
00:25:24I knew it immediately.
00:25:25It was just in the pre-dawn.
00:25:28And I jumped out of bed, put on my February, so it was really cold and there's snow on
00:25:33the ground, put on my slippers, put on my robe, and went out across the deck, up the
00:25:41little hill, which led into the small woods where the circle was.
00:25:48And I could see beyond the woods, which were naked because it was winter.
00:25:52I could see a dark shape in the clearing beyond the woods.
00:25:58And I could hear a certain sound that I have not mentioned anywhere yet, that is the sound
00:26:04that some of these devices make when they're idling.
00:26:08And so I knew that it was them.
00:26:11And I could see figures out there too.
00:26:15And I thought, it is them.
00:26:17They have come.
00:26:19And I was just about to just walk right down there.
00:26:22But because I stopped, I heard a voice, and this was a telepathic voice in my head, not
00:26:29like what I was talking about a moment ago, say, come on, come on.
00:26:35I have my limitations.
00:26:36I had a family back there in that cabin, and I'm not going to go down to meet that voice
00:26:44all alone in the woods by myself, completely helpless.
00:26:50And I turned around and went back to the cabin.
00:26:55When I put my hand on the doorknob, something very important happened that does figure in
00:27:04the fourth mind.
00:27:06Three cries came from above the woods, oh, oh, oh.
00:27:15And those sounds remain the most emotionally rich sounds of any kind I have ever heard.
00:27:24And they were delivered with such absolute perfection, in other words, in terms of the
00:27:29tonality, the gratings of the tones, and the distance between them, that I could not listen
00:27:36to music for a year afterwards.
00:27:38It all sounded like mud.
00:27:40We do not know in our world anything that perfect, nothing.
00:27:48And when you are exposed to it, it's a profound change in your experience of life.
00:27:56I went on into the cabin, I went upstairs, and suddenly I was aware of an invisible presence.
00:28:04We had become very sensitive to invisible presences by then in front of me.
00:28:10We could all three of us, myself, my wife, my son, and certainly our two cats, were quite
00:28:15aware that the visitors were often in there invisibly.
00:28:20So I tried to take my attention into my body and do this thing that I call the sensing
00:28:28exercise.
00:28:30That's a long story about that, but get to that if you want to.
00:28:35Immediately, I found myself plunged into another reality.
00:28:42I was kind of gliding along and I saw these sticks standing, beautiful, graceful sticks
00:28:50standing up, and I thought, what has happened now?
00:28:55Where am I?
00:28:56And I looked up and I realized where I was.
00:29:01I had been a memory that was my mother's desk in her room when I was a tiny baby.
00:29:12I had been taken back in my mind to the moment that I first walked.
00:29:19The moment I first walked.
00:29:21It was incredible, and it ended after a couple of minutes, and I was back in my regular body,
00:29:29and I had experienced with an adult consciousness the moment I first walked.
00:29:37In other words, there had been a communication.
00:29:41Yes, you failed on one level, because you're here in the bedroom, not with us, but you
00:29:48have succeeded in that you have taken a first step, and that's where the relationship began
00:29:55to deepen to what it is now to this day.
00:29:58That book you have, The Fourth Mind, that's not Whitley Strieber.
00:30:02That's a committee that wrote that book, me and all kinds of people who work with me through
00:30:08my implant, and I don't think of them as alien versus us anymore.
00:30:12They're people to me.
00:30:14They're people that I know and have learned to respect, to always be aware that you have
00:30:24to be careful, because they're not us and they're not like us.
00:30:28They're not other versions of us.
00:30:30They have a different brain and a different perceptual system.
00:30:34They're different, but once you accept that, living with them is fascinating.
00:30:41I don't often see them physically, but we work together all the time.
00:30:45There's a striking quote towards the beginning of your book that says, we are a species in
00:30:50amnesia about our past and in denial about our present.
00:30:54Can you elaborate on that, and how does that connect to the experiences that you've had?
00:30:58Yeah.
00:30:59Okay.
00:31:00We're in denial about our present.
00:31:01Take something like precognition or telepathy or any of those unusual traits, which were
00:31:10also discussed in the book.
00:31:15Telepathy has been proven.
00:31:16It's been proven many different ways.
00:31:20Now there's the telepathy tapes of Kai Dickens and Dr. Diane Hennessy Powell.
00:31:28This is real, but you will not find anything about it in Nature magazine, in the magazine
00:31:35of science at all.
00:31:38The reason is we can't go there because we have no mechanism to study.
00:31:46This is not that I know many scientists who would love to figure out how to study this,
00:31:53but they don't because they can't.
00:31:58What is it between two minds that connects thoughts?
00:32:02We don't have that mechanism.
00:32:04My suggestion has been, and I think this would be a good place to begin, is what we do have
00:32:11now are more and more sensitive abilities to study genetics and to study the anatomy
00:32:18of the brain and comparative anatomical studies of the brains of people who can do this sort
00:32:26of thing and who can't and studies of their genetics is going to net us some kind of a
00:32:32physical baseline.
00:32:35From there, perhaps we can get to the point where we can find some kind of a signal that
00:32:42we are able to detect.
00:32:45But until science can detect and measure that signal, it essentially has nothing to do except
00:32:53sit there and wonder, just like the rest of us.
00:32:57So that's the beginning of that.
00:33:00Now first, I'm sure there have been plenty of situations where people from other worlds
00:33:09of various kinds have visited Earth and it's never taken.
00:33:14In other words, nobody's ever stayed, obviously.
00:33:18Now our visitors, the new ones, the ones that are here now, have big plans.
00:33:23I think they do intend to stay because when they came or perhaps were sent, it turned
00:33:30out that we weren't dependent on seeing them through the lens of mythologies and beliefs.
00:33:39There were a few people around who could see them objectively.
00:33:43Unfortunately, our people on the inside were almost uniformly seeing them through a religious
00:33:50lens. But as I said earlier, but people on the outside, like good scientists like Dr.
00:33:58Gary Nolan or Dr. Jacques Vallée and academics like Dr.
00:34:03Diana Pasulka and Dr.
00:34:05Jeffrey Kripal, the two latter ones, by the way, Diana wrote a beautiful preface for the
00:34:11book and Jeffrey, a forward, these are academics and they came late and I have to republish
00:34:20the book to put them in.
00:34:21But anyway, they're there.
00:34:23So these are people who are not in amnesia anymore.
00:34:31What happened to us, though?
00:34:33Because if you look at the whole past, you see this planet is not just has a few things
00:34:39on it that we can't explain in engineering in the past.
00:34:43It's loaded with ruins that we can't explain.
00:34:48It's loaded with and I go into that in the book.
00:34:52Why? Like one of the ones that people hardly ever think about, but which is extraordinary,
00:34:59is the island, the artificial islands in the Carolinas, in the Pacific, in the South Pacific
00:35:06known as Nan Madal.
00:35:08This consists of huge basalt logs which have been carved out of a quarry not far from the
00:35:18from from where they are.
00:35:21And they one on top of the other to the point that they become islands.
00:35:28Now, you think, oh, well, when the National Geographic sent a team out there, they found a
00:35:33fire pit from the 12th century and decided, well, it must have been the Polynesians in the
00:35:3812th century who did this.
00:35:39I believe they've withdrawn that from their website because they have realized that a
00:35:46Polynesian group from the 12th century did not use canoes to take these blocks.
00:35:55That distance, maybe they could have done it with two or three, but there are at least
00:36:02750,000 of them there.
00:36:08So it wasn't the Polynesians.
00:36:12I could go on, there is Baalbek where these huge stone platform exists.
00:36:21Of course, there's the Great Pyramid.
00:36:23And no matter how many hoops you jump through about how it was built, what you cannot
00:36:29explain is how a structure that large could have been sited so perfectly.
00:36:37We can't site anything like that now.
00:36:39We don't have the skill.
00:36:41So that remains, you know, you can say that the little cartouche of Khufu inside the thing
00:36:48which very well have been may have been made by a an Egyptologist of the period and not
00:36:55even ancient.
00:36:57You can say that that cartouche proves it's Khufu's pyramid, but what it doesn't prove
00:37:05is how someone could site that enormous object so skillfully.
00:37:10And you go across the planet and there are many, many such things.
00:37:16Now we go back, let's go back to before history.
00:37:21Let's go back to 12,000 BC.
00:37:2412,000 BC, the ice giant is here.
00:37:30It's the depths of the Ice Age.
00:37:32The Laurentide Glacier stretches to the central United States.
00:37:37Canada is an ice pack.
00:37:40The glacier stretches into the north central Europe and most of Russia is ice.
00:37:48Human beings cling to life in the south.
00:37:53Something has happened, however, in the I'm going back.
00:37:56I'm sorry to be sort of I'm just reliving it as I talk about it.
00:37:59It's coming to me in pictures and it's a little hard to concentrate for that reason.
00:38:03So just saying I wish the pictures would stop.
00:38:07So going back even further now, 30,000 years ago, a star explodes.
00:38:16We know it exploded because of what the gamma rays did here,
00:38:21which is that they caused a strip of land to all of the large ungulates
00:38:28on a strip of land from Southeast Asia through Australia died out.
00:38:33All the big marsupials died out.
00:38:35When we arrived and people arrived in
00:38:40Australia, there were no more large marsupials.
00:38:43They were all gone because unlike the small ones who hid in burrows when this happened,
00:38:48the big ones were just standing out there when a second sun appeared in the sky.
00:38:53This sun was sheeting the planet with gamma rays and killed a lot of
00:39:00fauna and probably flora as well.
00:39:04Then fast forward again 12,000 years, the physical debris moving much more slowly
00:39:12from that supernova arrives in our solar system.
00:39:16And suddenly out of nowhere, the sun begins to explode with solar flares because the sun is
00:39:26very sensitive to objects hitting it and suddenly it's being hit by all kinds of dust and meteors
00:39:34and chunks of ice from this solar explosion and what came from it afterwards.
00:39:42Meanwhile, the planets are also bombarded and this is why the Earth is bombarded by
00:39:50micrometeorites. And this is why, as I was just about to say, you find the bodies of like of
00:39:59mammoths, frozen solid with food still in their mouths.
00:40:05If you look into those bodies, you will find tiny bits of iron embedded in the bone.
00:40:12And that iron is micrometeorites, that's what killed them.
00:40:15They were sheeted with micrometeorites and just dropped dead, millions of them.
00:40:21Then a fire started across North America because a lot of these meteors were hot and incendiary.
00:40:30And the result of this was the entire continent burned.
00:40:38We know this because of a geologic feature called the Black Mat, which stretches from
00:40:44the Rocky Mountains almost in places all the way to Canada and into New England.
00:40:52There was a fire, in other words, I'm in Los Angeles and we've just had a terrible fire.
00:40:58This was a fire that essentially consumed a whole continent, a whole continent,
00:41:04which was heavily forested at the time.
00:41:07And then the forest bled off into tundra in the north.
00:41:10You don't find the Black Mat in the tundra areas so much.
00:41:15Then something else happened.
00:41:17Something struck the glacier with tremendous force.
00:41:22And we know this happened because splashback from this strike created millions of little
00:41:31craters in the Carolinas called the Carolina Dells to this day.
00:41:36And these dells, they're mysterious because there's no apparent origin for them.
00:41:42You dig into them, you don't find meteors.
00:41:44You don't find any debris.
00:41:46That's because the debris was ice and it melted.
00:41:50So then the glacier is broken loose and starts sliding down the Mississippi Valley.
00:41:57At that point, this is the beginning of what's called the Younger Dryas.
00:42:08The Older Dryas had caused something of an increase in sea levels.
00:42:17But the Younger Dryas, not only did it cause an increase in sea levels,
00:42:22the glaciers falling all over the world into the water with such intensity caused
00:42:28immense tidal waves around the world.
00:42:31Sea levels rose 400 feet in a matter of hours, or days, I should say.
00:42:40Now, people say, well, there couldn't have been a civilization then.
00:42:46Oh, no.
00:42:47Well, we've never looked that deep for anything.
00:42:51Archaeological.
00:42:53Very rarely and very, because it's so difficult.
00:42:56It's expensive as hell and hard to do.
00:42:59And where to look anyway?
00:43:03You know, there's a few artifacts here and there, the Bimini Road and other things that
00:43:08suggest and Graham Hancock has done excellent work in this area.
00:43:12But what happened was this planet was overwhelmed by a massive catastrophe because then the next
00:43:21thing, as the Younger Dryas was concluding and warming up, there was melt and the melt
00:43:29caused, I've got it wrong, by the way, no, I don't, I don't, the melt caused a flood
00:43:37that lasted over the central United States for about a thousand years.
00:43:43This flood, when you dig down into the black mat, you find carbonized wood fragments and
00:43:51you find algae skeletons.
00:43:54This flood, it didn't last like it wasn't, not Noah's flood, it was much worse.
00:43:59It was, the area became a gigantic lake for thousands of years.
00:44:04Through all of this, the skies were continuously alight with auroras that probably covered
00:44:12the entire planet as debris kept striking the sun and causing it to flare.
00:44:19What do we get out of this?
00:44:20We get flood myths from around the world and we get stories of gods at war in the heavens.
00:44:29Stories of gods at war in the heavens.
00:44:35There weren't gods at war.
00:44:38It was the worst god of all, the one we fear so much we will do anything to prevent this god,
00:44:46to make it unnecessary to face this god.
00:44:51The god that was actually involved was the blind random chance of life in this universe.
00:44:58That was the god.
00:45:00And the theory about all of this is that prior to this cataclysm, there was a civilization,
00:45:07an advanced civilization on earth that had capabilities and technologies that you reference
00:45:14in the book that we have since lost, but that these visitors do possess.
00:45:19The epigraph to the book is a quote from Chan Thomas, the author of the Adam and Eve story.
00:45:29The Adam and Eve story remains to this day, partly classified because it is about
00:45:35our distant past and its significance for us now.
00:45:39Two weeks ago on Dreamland, or I don't know when you're going to record this,
00:45:43but recently I should say on Dreamland, I did a show with a man called Peter Robbins,
00:45:49who was, he's a UFO investigator and he has methodically collected
00:45:57hundreds of images from the moon and Mars, which have been airbrushed out.
00:46:05And you can see here and there in corners behind the airbrushing that there are structures
00:46:11that NASA is hiding from us.
00:46:14Some of those structures may be new, but some of the things that haven't been hidden
00:46:18are clearly structural in nature and ruined and very, very old.
00:46:24I think the truth is this, we had at least a solar system-wide civilization.
00:46:33It was destroyed by this event and maybe there was a war of some kind.
00:46:39I don't know.
00:46:40I couldn't discount it completely.
00:46:42But we entered a state of amnesia from the sheer shock of it.
00:46:46This went on for a thousand years.
00:46:49There was generation after generation of human beings who did not know anything except a
00:46:56world in upheaval.
00:46:58This is also the time when farming began, because the people who were left alive were
00:47:03the people of the uplands, the hunter-gatherers, the wanderers.
00:47:08The hunter-gatherers, the wanderers, not the people in the sophisticated cities, because
00:47:15right now, if the sea levels rose 400 feet, our civilization is more developed and it
00:47:21has a higher population than that one did, clearly.
00:47:25But we would lose most of our great cities, would lose most of them, because they're mostly
00:47:32near the water.
00:47:34They lost all of theirs.
00:47:36There are places here and there.
00:47:39There's Rockwall, Texas.
00:47:40There's a strange wall.
00:47:42And there are walls that have been found in places like Kentucky and around the world,
00:47:47very deeply buried, suggesting that a long, long time ago, there were structures there
00:47:55of some kind.
00:47:57There's some structures like that in Indonesia and in Croatia as well.
00:48:02But not much, because everything, of course, was concentrated on the coasts.
00:48:07It wasn't a big industrial civilization like ours, or even a pre-industrial one like Rome
00:48:15and the classical world.
00:48:16It was something else.
00:48:18And this is where we get to in the book, what we have lost.
00:48:23We have lost the abilities that enabled us to do things like build Nan Madol and create
00:48:34and cut those gigantic stones and move them at Baalbek and site the Great Pyramid so perfectly.
00:48:45We have lost all of that.
00:48:46And we have also lost telepathy.
00:48:49And I show in the book how, in the distant past, this was actually how we communicated.
00:48:55People always say, well, they couldn't have communicated because they couldn't.
00:48:59They weren't oceans.
00:49:01It was impossible for them.
00:49:03They didn't need that.
00:49:05They used the mind.
00:49:07And this is why, when I went to a conference recently, a big conference that Gary Nolan
00:49:13has at Stanford called the Soul Foundation Conference, I went there with a message.
00:49:25There was a podcast called the Telepathy Tapes.
00:49:29Everyone has to listen to it immediately because it proves that telepathy is real.
00:49:37And it does that by showing how it works among unvoiced people.
00:49:42And spellers, they're called, mostly autistic who don't speak.
00:49:48And Dr. Diane Hennessey-Powell, and I mentioned, I know I referenced this earlier,
00:49:54has a book out about it called the ESP Enigma, which is presently, I think, not on Amazon.
00:50:03If you Google the ESP Enigma, you can find it.
00:50:07I believe the audio book is still present, but they took the regular book down because
00:50:13of pressure from you know who.
00:50:18Somebody doesn't want us to know any of this.
00:50:21None of it.
00:50:21They don't want us to know what's happening in the present.
00:50:24They don't want us to know what's happening in the past.
00:50:27Chan Thomas found out.
00:50:30Peter Robbins found out.
00:50:33I found out.
00:50:35Everyone's going to find out now, but how long will it last?
00:50:39They will crack down, I'm quite sure.
00:50:42Well, let's talk about that a little bit more because there is a disclosure movement happening
00:50:48and telepathy has become kind of a central talking point recently.
00:50:53There was a whistleblower from the military, Jake Barber, who came forward recently
00:50:59and mentioned that the military possesses people with, he refers to them as psionics,
00:51:06who can communicate with UAPs and then they are able to kind of take them down and recover
00:51:13the ships.
00:51:15So that has been kind of an interesting talking point recently, which ties in very closely
00:51:21with some of the themes of your book.
00:51:24What are your thoughts on that?
00:51:26Is there a reason that this is coming to the forefront now in terms of the disclosure and
00:51:32how this is all being spoken about openly?
00:51:35Well, yeah, it is.
00:51:39One of the religious people has announced that the second coming is going to occur on
00:51:44Easter Sunday in 2026.
00:51:49One of the people connected with the government indirectly and he's saying that the second
00:51:55coming will be then.
00:51:56And I thought to myself, well, he probably knows something is going to happen about then.
00:52:02And but it's not going to be the second coming.
00:52:06It's going to be what a lot of people wish we would believe was the second coming as
00:52:10if these visitors have anything to do with one specific religion.
00:52:15There's thousands of religions on this planet.
00:52:18Why would they be one that they single out?
00:52:21Why wouldn't it be Kali?
00:52:22I mean, we might that might be an interesting experience if Kali showed up instead of Jesus
00:52:28at the second coming.
00:52:29So anyway, we're in a situation, but I understand from them, you understand, I do not.
00:52:40I've been have I can't tell you how many predictions they've given me.
00:52:44Most of them haven't come true.
00:52:46And if you look back across the history of the UFO movement, there's all kinds of situations
00:52:51where people went out on mountains and waited for him in the end of the world and this and
00:52:57that and the rival of the flying saucer there, etc.
00:53:02And it never happened.
00:53:03It never happened.
00:53:05And so but but something is happening.
00:53:10It is that the planet.
00:53:13And this is I don't care about politics.
00:53:16I'm not interested.
00:53:17I'm interested in nature and the numbers that express the condition of nature.
00:53:24That's all I'm interested in.
00:53:26Those numbers are telling us very clearly that within a few more years, the planet's
00:53:31environment is going to change in fundamental ways that are going to be not helpful to the
00:53:39human species and the visitors.
00:53:43It's there as far as I understand it, they will show up in great numbers when we are
00:53:51all certain that the planet cannot sustain us anymore.
00:53:58And this gets into the relationship between them and the dead and us.
00:54:04And what's happening here is we discover telepathy.
00:54:08We're going to discover levitation.
00:54:11We're going to recover all of these powers that we had before they were stripped from
00:54:17us by the sheer shock of the younger drives.
00:54:21We will we will recover many of them, maybe all of them.
00:54:25At that point, also, though, the planet is going to collapse around our ears and the
00:54:31visitors are going to show up.
00:54:33I, Jake Barber said at one point, he says, I don't feel on a logical shock.
00:54:40I feel on a logical relief.
00:54:42And I thought that's because the illogical shock hasn't happened yet.
00:54:46My friend, it will.
00:54:48And it's going to be profound.
00:54:50It will profoundly change the whole nature of human experience.
00:54:53I wouldn't be surprised if the if the veil between the living and the dead drops altogether
00:54:59because they are still very much present in our world.
00:55:04My wife was quite skillful in this.
00:55:07And without my knowing it, nine months before she passed away, she began to
00:55:14create the conditions that would enable her to provably return.
00:55:19And without going into too much detail, I mean, I could it's all in a book called
00:55:25The Afterlife Revolution that we wrote together after she passed.
00:55:29She successfully proved to me that she was still here.
00:55:34And she created an avatar in the form of a white moth.
00:55:38And the white moth became a very useful tool because the white moth would show up.
00:55:45Like, for example, speaking of the Esalen Institute that I briefly mentioned earlier,
00:55:50I was at a private conference there.
00:55:53And I was talking about the afterlife revolution.
00:56:00And while I was after my talk, everyone went up to eat lunch and a white moth appears in
00:56:09February and flew around the table where everyone was sitting and everyone was laughing and
00:56:14looking at it and so forth.
00:56:16Then when we were having our final dinner together that night,
00:56:22the white moth appeared in the banqueting hall where we were and flew around and around with
00:56:30everybody clapping and cheering and then landed on the head of a podcaster, Jeremy Vaney,
00:56:39who Anne had liked very much and enjoyed his podcast.
00:56:43It was on Unknown Country, my website, for years until he quit doing it.
00:56:48And everyone was laughing and cheering.
00:56:53And it was such fun to see this.
00:56:55Then it ascended into the air, flew into the middle of the room and just disappeared like
00:57:02a magic trick.
00:57:05It was all her doing.
00:57:07They're still with us.
00:57:08I believe I may have said this a moment ago, but one of the first things she said was,
00:57:14it looks like you're all intentionally ignoring us.
00:57:18Well, we're not going too much longer.
00:57:21We're going to have to turn around because we're going to be in an extreme state of stress
00:57:27with the visitor showing up and the planet collapsing around our ears.
00:57:32We will find a new mankind.
00:57:35That concept of the veil dropping between life and death ties into something else that
00:57:39you mentioned in the book about these visitors in that, first of all, there's evidence that
00:57:45their bodies are designed, that they're not naturally occurring, that they're actually
00:57:52specifically designed and possibly built.
00:57:56And that speaks to the concept that they treat their bodies as kind of these disposable tools
00:58:03to use that don't really have any meaning, which is very different from humans who typically
00:58:09we associate our entire selves with our bodies.
00:58:12You know, that's the way that that culture has kind of developed.
00:58:17I guess my question is, I have several questions about this, but what can you say about their
00:58:26attitude towards death from what you've observed based on the way that these bodies that they
00:58:34use to get around here, you know, how they're made and how they're utilized?
00:58:40OK, well, first, the bodies, the ones that we have possession of that I know of were
00:58:45at Fort Detrick at one point, whether they're there now or even still exist now, I don't
00:58:51know, because if I know the Department of Defense, it's busily destroying everything
00:58:55it can so that people can't find it.
00:59:01In any case, the bodies at Fort Detrick were non-reproducing, in other words, they didn't
00:59:08have sex organs.
00:59:09Therefore, they were manufactured in some way.
00:59:12They were partly biology and partly robotic.
00:59:18There are others that I have also met who do have sex organs.
00:59:25At least I've met a woman who did certainly have sex organs.
00:59:29And so there's two levels, at least.
00:59:39Now, I can tell you this, when they lose a body, like these guys who shoot them, call
00:59:48them in and shoot them down.
00:59:50You know what that is?
00:59:52We don't understand it.
00:59:53We think, oh, my, we can do this.
00:59:56This is cool.
00:59:58I had John Blitch on Dreamland.
01:00:01He's one of the people who's speaking out from within the government a few weeks, also
01:00:06a few weeks ago.
01:00:07And John was talking about how they could do that.
01:00:11And I said to him, you understand what's happening is this.
01:00:15In my book, A New World, I explain how the visitors had communicated to me that we needed
01:00:21to be able to defend ourselves from their level of intrusion or they couldn't really
01:00:30treat, deal with us.
01:00:32They couldn't treat with us.
01:00:33They're trying to get us to the point where we have a viable presence.
01:00:41What happens when the telepaths in the military call them in and then they shoot them down
01:00:47is they're in a training program that they don't know is a training program.
01:00:53They're learning this and what they're shooting down doesn't matter at all.
01:00:58And it also results in us obtaining materials that we can use to further our technological
01:01:05understanding.
01:01:06In other words, these shoot downs are actually gifts.
01:01:09And if there are bodies involved, which there probably are sometime, it's always these little
01:01:15non-reproducing bodies, which are like when one of the visitors would show up, the tall
01:01:22five foot tall ones would show up at my house.
01:01:27She would often have a whole bunch of little ones around her and that she communicated
01:01:34to me that this was the good army and they were all inhabited by her at the same time.
01:01:42They were all the same being.
01:01:44It's just that she had all these avatars that she could send out into dangerous situations
01:01:49that she was curious about without worrying about getting herself killed.
01:01:54I would think killing one of the biologically complete ones would be very unwise.
01:02:05The others, the little ones, they don't care.
01:02:08It pisses them off because they lose something in there.
01:02:11Obviously, I mean, they have manufacturing and they have an economy of some kind, just
01:02:15like we do.
01:02:16And so, something that had took work to build is destroyed and doesn't make them happy.
01:02:25Something else that I have been wondering about since reading your book is just the,
01:02:32you mentioned that they haven't necessarily been here for a long time.
01:02:37There may have been isolated periods where different groups have visited Earth and that
01:02:42we're experiencing visitation from one kind right now.
01:02:49But to your knowledge, is it really like one species of being that is inhabiting Earth
01:02:56right now along with us?
01:02:57Or are there many kinds?
01:02:59Are they non-physical and creating these physical bodies so that they can interact with us?
01:03:04Like, what kind of beings are we actually dealing with here?
01:03:08Okay, I can tell you about three different types of being because I've seen three different
01:03:13types of being and interacted with them.
01:03:16I've seen the grays, which are the most familiar ones.
01:03:20I have had one encounter with two tall whites and one encounter with a child of a tall white,
01:03:27of the tall whites.
01:03:29And I have had one encounter with what is known as a Nordic, which is a very pale,
01:03:35but essentially human-looking person who was voiced.
01:03:43I don't know if the tall whites are voiced or not.
01:03:46The grays aren't.
01:03:48They have no vocal cords.
01:03:50They have no sirens, which is what a bird uses to make notes.
01:03:53That's why I heard only three very complex, emotionally complex cries.
01:03:59That's the only sound they can make.
01:04:01And this relates to the spellers.
01:04:03The spellers are telepathic because they don't have voices.
01:04:07The grays are telepathic because they don't have voices.
01:04:11But the difference is this.
01:04:12The spellers are an isolated community in a voiced species.
01:04:19The grays are an unvoiced species that is generally telepathic.
01:04:25And it is a very different experience to get close to them in the mind because there's
01:04:30only essentially one of them with many, many different shadings of personality.
01:04:39But it's varied.
01:04:40They don't have war with themselves ever.
01:04:44But they might become very aggressive if they're prodded from the outside.
01:04:53Where did we start here?
01:04:54I've gotten a little prolix.
01:04:56I apologize.
01:04:57Right.
01:04:57I was just wondering about because we had mentioned that their bodies are more or less
01:05:01like avatars for themselves.
01:05:05Does that mean that they have non-physical presence?
01:05:08Okay.
01:05:09All right.
01:05:10Well, I'll tell you what I think.
01:05:12I saw, I believe I saw, and I'm always so equivocal about this because when you're with
01:05:18them, you're not in this mental state.
01:05:20You're in another mental state.
01:05:22And you can bring memories back from it.
01:05:24At least I can.
01:05:25And some other people I know can.
01:05:27But those memories can become quite distorted because the way the body works, the memory
01:05:33works is it's a comparative mechanism.
01:05:36It compares what you're seeing now to things you've seen earlier.
01:05:40And you've been building that since childhood.
01:05:42When you confront something that you've never seen before that you don't have any comparison
01:05:46for, it may slip away quite quickly.
01:05:49That's why, for example, I forgot my childhood memories.
01:05:52And so many people forget.
01:05:53My son has forgotten all of his childhood memories.
01:05:57But I saw them happen, a lot of them.
01:06:00So what I saw was one of the little ones open a drawer, a long drawer.
01:06:08And there were a bunch of ones like him in the drawer, lying there with their mouths
01:06:16sort of slack like they looked like dolls.
01:06:24And suddenly, they began to come to life and come out and up out of the drawer.
01:06:30And that's why I understand them as being avatars of what we would call a spirit or
01:06:39a disembodied presence, which is actually some kind of a concentration of consciousness.
01:06:46It has a coherent self to it, a coherent presence, which I think our dead also have
01:06:54for the most part.
01:06:57And so that's why I think they use these bodies like we use clothes or diving suits.
01:07:03Do you think that the same might apply to us, but just without our knowledge, that we
01:07:09may have this concentrated consciousness that is the source of our beings, but we don't
01:07:19realize that maybe as a result of the amnesia that you were just talking about before?
01:07:25We eventually realize it when the body stops functioning.
01:07:30The visitors can take me out of my body.
01:07:33There's a place right back here, right at the C1 vertebra, the top vertebra, and they'll touch
01:07:41it with something that causes a kind of electricity to go down my spine, and I can feel what feels
01:07:47like clamps opening on my spine, and I can just roll right out of my body.
01:07:53I can see it there, and it's a completely perfect separation.
01:07:58I've met, talked to people and gone places like this, and it's not happened often because
01:08:07I finally decided they didn't trust me not to go to the White House and scare the president
01:08:12or something, which I probably would have done.
01:08:15So you can get out of your, we can get out of our bodies too, but I don't think we are
01:08:21meant to do that until death.
01:08:23I believe that may be changing, though, as we've referred to earlier, this fundamental
01:08:28change that's coming.
01:08:35I think the dead are all around us.
01:08:37I think our dead, and when people say that they feel a presence, it's often their own
01:08:43dead.
01:08:44I think these werbs that show up are usually us, because there's a man that meditated with
01:08:51me for years, a year, a couple of years, at the cabin, the old cabin in upstate New
01:08:56York, and he could manifest physically.
01:09:00In other words, he could become a physical presence, or he could become an orb, and he
01:09:07was with six others, and they would float around in the woods.
01:09:11These orbs would float around in the woods.
01:09:12I never saw them, but my son's friends, and he did see them, and then he turned into a
01:09:21very bright orb on the last night we had the cabin.
01:09:25I got beat up a lot in the media, and people stopped buying my books.
01:09:28I lost that cabin, but last night, he showed up, and we had a remarkable connection.
01:09:39He was this bright thing about the size of a basketball, hovering over the front yard
01:09:49with these thin white beams coming out of it, and they were like laser beams.
01:09:57And when I was watching this, I saw this out of the front window of our bedroom, and when
01:10:02they would touch me, they brought with them almost a taste of him, like an essence.
01:10:10It was just beautiful.
01:10:11It was one of the most beautiful experiences I've ever had in my life.
01:10:15That's amazing.
01:10:16That's us.
01:10:17That's us.
01:10:18That's what we are.
01:10:22Now, let's get a little farther down here, though.
01:10:25We are in this state for a very specific reason.
01:10:29It is to experience everything as new all the time, and to gather that experience as
01:10:37a form of energy, and as to how that works, that is explained very clearly in the last
01:10:45site document of soul science that exists on Earth, of real soul science, which is on
01:10:53the west wall of the entryway of the Pyramid of Unas.
01:10:57It's known as the Pyramid Text.
01:11:00And forget reading the so-called translation of the Pyramid Text.
01:11:04It's a silly Eurocentric absurdity.
01:11:08There is an author, Susan Bryn Morrow, whose book The Dawning Moon of the Mind does address
01:11:17these hieroglyphics in a more rational way, in a more useful way, and a more humble way,
01:11:25I might add, with respect instead of disdain, the disdain of the ignorant who believe themselves
01:11:34to be superior to their intellectual betters, the ancient Egyptians.
01:11:42In any case, it describes the spine as a serpent of light, and around it are seven smaller
01:11:50serpents circling it all the time, drawing experience into the spine, which then accelerates
01:11:57it and into the next level, into the second body.
01:12:03And when you die, that's what you are.
01:12:07You are that second body.
01:12:09Your life experience goes with you.
01:12:13And I was taken out of my body one time, years and years ago, and I had a wonderful time
01:12:20going around the room, and I was never out of this reality, out into the front yard and
01:12:26experimenting with going up in the air, and so it was just such a delight.
01:12:30But when I came back, and I was beside the bed looking down at my body, I thought,
01:12:37wait a minute, nobody told me how to get back in.
01:12:41And so I'm all alone here with this now, typical of the greys.
01:12:45They get you out, and then they go, you know, you're on your own.
01:12:49They don't tell you anything about getting back in.
01:12:51So then I noticed when I stopped moving, I slowly started drifting downward a little bit.
01:13:01And I knew then that it was because my soul was a little too heavy.
01:13:06Finally, I thought I'd laid down in my body, and I just sort of slid out of it.
01:13:13I kept sliding out of it, and I said, oh, no, anybody's going to wake up in the morning
01:13:17with a dead body beside him.
01:13:18Now what?
01:13:19Then suddenly I saw this vivid image from my childhood of my dad mowing the lawn,
01:13:26and he looks up and he says, when are you going to come help me?
01:13:28And I got back in my body in an instant.
01:13:32It didn't take anything except dad and the lawnmower.
01:13:36But here's the thing, that little bit of weight.
01:13:40If you read the 42 laws of Maat, you will find how to die as the Egyptians wanted to die,
01:13:55lighter than a feather.
01:13:57So you will ascend.
01:14:00A vast amount of Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Shinto, Zen literature,
01:14:10in fact, of all world religions is about that.
01:14:15How do I die without any connections left to the earth, to my life?
01:14:24How do I die light as a feather or lighter than a feather?
01:14:29Annie was a master, frankly.
01:14:33She would be really pissed off hearing me say that because she used to say
01:14:37every master that isn't hidden isn't a real master.
01:14:41I said, what about Buddha?
01:14:43And she would say, he's hidden.
01:14:45He's still hidden.
01:14:48And that's true because Buddha said, no images of me.
01:14:55But if you go to Bodh Gaya in India, the first thing you see is 150 foot tall statue of Buddha
01:15:05looming over the Bodhi tree.
01:15:08So Buddha is still hidden.
01:15:10In any case, she said this.
01:15:14Enlightenment is what happens when there is nothing left of us but love.
01:15:21Those are extremely powerful words.
01:15:25The love she was referring to was not sentimental love that we have in our daily lives.
01:15:30It was what's called objective love, which is the urgency that began the universe in
01:15:37the first place.
01:15:38It's the urgency of God and God to create.
01:15:42This is what we have to find in ourselves.
01:15:45This is what inner search is all about.
01:15:49And you can find it easily.
01:15:52Meister Eckhart, the 12th century German mystical philosopher and theologian, said it best.
01:16:03God laughs and plays.
01:16:07You find your laughter.
01:16:09We were in the Gurdjieff Foundation for a long time.
01:16:13And that's a foundation founded by an Armenian mystic called G.I.
01:16:18Gurdjieff who had a lot of fascinating ideas.
01:16:21But unfortunately, like all things like that, it's kind of in decline, in my opinion.
01:16:28Although if you're interested, you can go to Gurdjiefffoundation.org and you can find it
01:16:34and explore it.
01:16:37They don't laugh.
01:16:38Annie used to say, I'm not going to the meetings because they don't laugh.
01:16:42Laughter is the beginning.
01:16:44When you laugh, you're beginning your inner work.
01:16:48Laugh and play.
01:16:49She would say laugh and play.
01:16:51That's how to become enlightened.
01:16:54And if you read the works of Buddha, he didn't do it that way quite.
01:16:59But that was what she said.
01:17:01She said another thing.
01:17:04And this is so deeply freeing.
01:17:05And I do wish more of our politicians would take it to heart.
01:17:09I asked her, what is compassion?
01:17:11Because I always wonder about that.
01:17:12And she was so compassionate.
01:17:14And just naturally, I mean, she knew just how to be compassionate.
01:17:18And it wasn't always pretty.
01:17:21Sometimes her compassion blew people out of the water, frankly.
01:17:27And she said simply this.
01:17:30She said, each of us is all we have.
01:17:34Each of us is all we have.
01:17:37And when you think of that, I look over at you.
01:17:40You're all you have.
01:17:42You know what that makes me feel?
01:17:45It makes my heart fill with a feeling of regard for you.
01:17:50And hope for you.
01:17:52And interest in your life.
01:17:55I can do it for myself, too.
01:17:57I can do it for anybody walking the street.
01:18:00Those few words change your life.
01:18:03Each of us is all we have.
01:18:07And I say to your audience, look at others and think that in your mind.
01:18:12That person there is all they have.
01:18:16Just like me.
01:18:17And suddenly, the most awful people come to seem deeply human.
01:18:24That is a profound message.
01:18:25Yeah, I think that's a fantastic way to end it.
01:18:30I hope that everybody feels that message the way that I do right now.
01:18:34Because I think that's very important.
01:18:37Yeah, I saw it in your face.
01:18:38You got it.
01:18:39Yeah, I do.
01:18:41Whitley, I want to thank you so much for sharing your story, your stories with us.
01:18:45It means a lot to me.
01:18:47All I want is to have these conversations and expose them to more people so that we can
01:18:54all share this experience together in a graceful way, as opposed to in a fearful and troubling way.
01:19:02And I think that with stories like these, we're accomplishing that.
01:19:05So I want to thank you.
01:19:07Yes, we advance on story.
01:19:10That's our Jacob's Ladder is stories.
01:19:14Absolutely.
01:19:15So for everybody who watched, I want to thank you as well.
01:19:18We'll be back soon with some more interviews.
01:19:21And until then, take care, be well, and stay curious, everybody.
01:19:25Take care.