GB News hosts Emily Carver and Tom Harwood found themselves engulfed in a fiery trans debate live on air, as the Good Afternoon Britain presenters split in their views on the latest trans row to hit women's sport.The row centres on trans women Harriet Haynes and Lucy Smith, who competed against each other in the Ultimate Pool Women’s Pro Series Event 2 final at Robin Park Leisure Centre in Wigan after beating four female-born opponents to the top.FULL STORY HERE.
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00:00Right, it's 1.26. It's been described by a certain Piers Morgan as preposterous, hasn't it?
00:06A professional women's pool tournament has been hit by protests after the final was contested by
00:12two transgender players. So Harriet Haynes beat Lucy Smith to win the ultimate pool women's pro
00:18series title after they both got past four female opponents on their way to the final in Wigan.
00:24Thoughts?
00:25So?
00:25No.
00:27You have no problem with two transgender women, so biological males,
00:32getting to, not only getting to the final, but both of them getting to the final and
00:36competing against each other so there was no female contestant left in the final?
00:42I think some people would take issue with you using the word female in that way.
00:45Okay, what's a woman then?
00:48What's your definition of a female?
00:50I think if you're going to go down the definitional argument, you could
00:53pick any item in this room and say what's your definition of that and you would find a word,
00:56you'd find a string of words.
00:57Oh come on, you're a sensible person, you know what the definition of a woman is, come on.
01:02Most women are people, I'm not going to go down a definitional argument with you.
01:05Why not? You're acting like Chris Dahmer now.
01:08Well no, because it's just a silly question.
01:09No, I'm sorry. You either have a women's category or you don't.
01:14You have a women's category in pool, therefore it should only be biological
01:17females who are in that category. Otherwise it's not fair on many levels.
01:21What is a woman? The answer that I'm supposed to give is adult human female, right?
01:26Well, no, you're not supposed to give it, I just want to know what you think.
01:29But that's just a tautology.
01:30Well, not really.
01:31Because you're just using it, then you could ask what's a female?
01:35So no, do you believe that a female is someone who identifies as female
01:39rather than has the biological makeup of a female?
01:42No, I don't think that I could just, for example, tomorrow identify as a female like that,
01:45I don't believe that. But I do believe that...
01:48But if you've had a bit of surgery,
01:49if you've had a bit of surgery and a few hormones, then yes.
01:51I do believe that there are transgender people who need to be treated with dignity and respect.
01:55OK, sure, but does that mean they get to go in the women's category of pool?
01:59So...
01:59And win the competition?
02:01Pool, as far as I am aware...
02:04And you don't know anything about this, I've looked it up.
02:07Pool is a game where you have balls on a felt surface and you hit them with a stick, right?
02:15So I've actually read what female pool players say about this,
02:18and they say that men, biological males, have an advantage in pool
02:23because they are taller in general, they have a longer arm span,
02:27they also have less wide hips, narrower hips,
02:31which apparently is an advantage too.
02:32Do you know how tall Harriet Haynes, who was the winner, is?
02:35No, I don't, but I'm saying on average...
02:37Right, but is that out of... So if there is a woman who is six foot tall...
02:40Tom, Tom, Tom, you either have a female category or you don't, OK?
02:45So if you're arguing that we just have gender neutral categories in all sports,
02:48fine. I'm not.
02:49But otherwise you don't have a female category.
02:51I'm saying that there are some sports where it's absolutely inappropriate
02:54for people who went through male...
02:55But you don't know anything about pool or anything about sports in general, do you?
02:59Should you ban a transgender woman from being in a pistol shooting team?
03:05Wow, we're not talking about pistol shooting.
03:07It's a sport, it's an Olympic sport.
03:08If there's a female category, then yes, it should only be for biological females.
03:13Chess.
03:14Same with that, if there's a female category.
03:16Why do you think women are worse at chess than men?
03:17I don't think women are worse at chess.
03:19If you have a female category, then you stick to it being female.
03:23If you have a male category, you stick to being male.
03:25What do you mean by female?
03:26If you want no categories at all in your particular sport,
03:29and everyone within that sport agrees, that is fine.
03:32So what you're doing here is you're trying to say that transgender women are male...
03:36Biologically, they're not the same as women who are biologically female
03:41and were born female and are female.
03:43So what you're...
03:44In a chromosomal way, in a biological way, in every other way.
03:47Is this just sport that you'd apply it to,
03:48or do you want to apply it to every realm of life?
03:51I'm currently talking about sport.
03:53Yeah.
03:53What you won't admit is that there's any difference
03:55between a transgender female and a female.
03:58You won't admit that.
04:00Now, this isn't about bigotry.
04:01This isn't about discrimination.
04:03This isn't about saying that these transgender women can't live their lives,
04:08but they can't compete, in my view, in a female category
04:13because they are not female in the same way as a woman is female.
04:17I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
04:19Why do you think there have been protests?
04:20Why do you think one of the female pool players is so furious about this?
04:23So your argument here isn't about any innate biological advantage in the sport.
04:29It's about categorisation.
04:30It's about that and category.
04:32We're talking, I'm talking more about the category in this case.
04:35Okay.
04:35Because we don't know...
04:36Because it's pool.
04:37No, no, no.
04:38Also because I think it's a better argument
04:40because fundamentally, I think it's a strong argument
04:42and just ends the argument, really.
04:44You either have a female category or you don't.
04:46In pool, we have a female category and a male category.
04:50If you want to have a gender-neutral tournament, then go ahead.
04:52You keep using the term female category.
04:54So for example, we also have female loos.
04:56Do you think that transgender women should be allowed to use female loos in supermarkets?
05:03Probably not.
05:03I think there should be gender-neutral loos.
05:05You think that transgender women...
05:06We're not talking about loos, though.
05:08We're talking about a competition.
05:10Female sports already don't get as much input in terms of cash,
05:14in terms of marketing often, in terms of all sorts of things.
05:17And now you have two people, born male, who are winning the tournament
05:21that females have been obviously training a lot for and it means a lot to them.
05:25Hence why some females...
05:26It means a lot to these people as well.
05:27Yes, but I'm sorry.
05:28I'm sorry.
05:29I'm sorry.
05:30I'm sorry.
05:31Because someone identifies as female does not mean that they are female
05:35in the same way as someone who's born as female.
05:37That's not to say that I have anything against transgender women.
05:40I don't, right?
05:42But I don't think they can compete in a female category.
05:44You've just admitted that you don't think it's because there's an innate advantage.
05:48No, I do think there is also...
05:49You think it's because of the category.
05:51I have been told by pool players who I've read what they've had to say
05:54and they do say that there are some male advantages in terms of,
05:58as I already explained.
05:59Anyway, let us know what you think.
06:02No, I didn't just say that.
06:03I said arm span.
06:05We've already gone over this.
06:06I say that there should be a female and a male category.
06:08If you want to have a gender neutral category, have one.