At Wednesday's Senate Judiciary Committee, Sen. Josh Hawley (R-MO) questioned Facebook whistleblower Sarah Wynn-Williams, former Director of Global Public Policy, about alleged internal documents.
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00:00Ms. Wynne-Williams, just one other line of questions, if I could, just one other subject.
00:05You actually touched on it with Senator Blackburn.
00:07She was talking to you about the kind of research that Facebook has done and the kind of advertising that they're willing to sell.
00:14And to me, what's so interesting about this is we've seen, frankly, the moral bankruptcy of this company and its leadership when it comes to China.
00:21And we've seen them be willing to lie to Congress, lie to the American public.
00:26We've got the documents in black and white.
00:27We've seen them be willing to give away American user data.
00:31But they were also trying to find out a way to make a buck on Americans, teenagers, children in times of distress right here in the United States.
00:40And I just want to give you an opportunity to comment on this.
00:45Here's an internal Facebook chat where a policy, a Facebook policy director,
00:53asks, is it really accurate that Facebook is doing research into young mothers and their emotional state?
01:02Is it your understanding if there's other research related to young mothers?
01:05Answer, yes.
01:06I looked at one list of research topics and saw one about young mothers and their emotional state.
01:13Coming down, the person says,
01:14I'm wondering about asking my apparently morally bankrupt colleagues if they are aware of any more.
01:22This is about Facebook's program to target ads to people when they are in emotional distress.
01:29Is that right?
01:30Is that what we're seeing here?
01:31That's correct, Senator.
01:32And that included teenage girls, as you were discussing with Senator Blackburn,
01:36those who had maybe recently deleted a selfie, maybe not feeling very good about themselves.
01:41And Facebook said, oh, oh, fantastic opportunity.
01:43We could sell this to advertisers.
01:45It apparently also included young mothers who are in moments of distress.
01:50I mean, who knows what that might include?
01:52Everything from the spilled oatmeal you were trying to put into your toddler's mouth.
01:56I have three children, as I understand.
01:58Or who knows what?
01:59Much, much worse things.
02:00So Facebook is constantly looking for opportunities to sell to advertisers,
02:08to make a buck, even on their own users.
02:11And they're doing it by tracking their users all over the place, tracking their emotional state.
02:14I mean, have I got that accurate?
02:16You've got that accurate.
02:17And beyond that, it's things like things that often do concern teen girls, like body confidence.
02:23You know, that's something else that they use to target, you know, weight loss or other things on, you know,
02:34children, really, 13 to 17-year-olds.
02:36So, to your knowledge, did Facebook, after this email exchange, you know, where another user says,
02:43I think it's a slippery slope here, and then there's the admission there is a level of behavioral targeting.
02:49I mean, just to be clear, I want everybody to see this.
02:52There is a level of behavioral targeting.
02:55I mean, these are Facebook executives.
02:56Again, this is a policy director in this chat acknowledging that this is what Facebook is doing.
03:01Did it stop?
03:02Did Facebook stop doing this?
03:03Not to my knowledge, Senator.
03:04Yeah, in fact, we know they didn't because other whistleblowers came forward to show that at Instagram,
03:10owned by Facebook, there was explicit targeting that goes on.
03:15There was explicit knowledge that the Instagram product was causing, in some cases, severe emotional distress,
03:20particularly to young girls.
03:23Facebook kept right on doing it anyway.
03:24Is that just because it made them a bunch of money?
03:28Senator, you know, as a mother of three children, it's very hard to say this,
03:32but yes, the, you know, one of the discussions I had with one of the business leaders was like,
03:39we just don't need to do this.
03:41Like, as a company, you know, Meta's now a trillion-dollar company.
03:46It is not short of money.
03:48It doesn't need to do this.
03:50And what he explained to me is like, you know, we've got the most valuable segment of the population.
03:59You know, advertisers really want to reach 13 to 17-year-olds, and we have them.
04:05We should be trumpeting it from the rooftops.
04:08It's really just extraordinary.
04:11I think what we've seen here is the evidence that you presented, the evidence that we have in black and white,
04:16is a company and leadership that is willing to do anything, anything, work with America's chief competitor,
04:23work with our chief adversary, sell out other American businesses, sell out American user data,
04:28lie to Congress, lie to the public, anything in order to amass more power and make a buck.
04:34Can I just ask you, you know Mark Zuckerberg very well.
04:36You've spent a lot of time with him.
04:38He's recently tried a reinvention in which he is now a great advocate of free speech
04:45after being an advocate of censorship in China and in this country for years,
04:50after suppressing the Hunter Biden laptop story,
04:53after working hand-in-glove with the Biden administration to suppress content on COVID,
04:58to suppress content on masks, to suppress content on election questions, on vaccines, all of that.
05:04Now that's all wiped away.
05:05Now he's on Joe Rogan and says that he is Mr. Free Speech.
05:09He is Mr. MAGA.
05:11He's a whole new man, and his company, they're a whole new company.
05:15Do you buy this latest reinvention of Mark Zuckerberg?
05:20Senator, there are two things.
05:22If he is such a fan of freedom of speech, why is he trying to silence me?
05:28And the other thing is that this is a man who wears many different costumes.
05:36When I was there, he wanted the president of China to name his first child.
05:43He was learning Mandarin.
05:44He was censoring to his heart's content.
05:47Now his new costume is MMA fighting or whatever, free speech.
05:54We don't know what the next costume is going to be, but it'll be something different.
05:59It's whatever gets him closest to power.
06:01If he were here, is there anything you'd like to say to him?
06:06Senator, I have a lot of questions for Mark Zuckerberg,
06:09but he has proven time and time again that you cannot believe his answers.
06:18He's lied to members of Congress.
06:21He's lied to employees.
06:24And he's lied to Americans.
06:27And that's why I'm asking this committee to hold him accountable.
06:31Well, we're going to do that.
06:34And I just have to say, I don't trust his latest reinvention at all.
06:39He sat where you have sat in front of this committee multiple times in my short time in the Senate.
06:44Every time it's a different answer.
06:47Every time it's a different facade.
06:49But every time, the one consistent through line is,
06:51every time it's something misleading.
06:54Every time it's something other than the truth.
06:56Every time it's about Mark Zuckerberg, not the American people.
07:00It's about Mark Zuckerberg, not what's good for this country,
07:03not what's good for his users, not what is the truth.
07:07And I, for one, am very tired of it.
07:09So I have a message to Mark Zuckerberg as well,
07:11which is that it's time for you to tell the truth.
07:15You should come to this committee and take an oath
07:17and sit where Ms. Wynne Williams is sitting now and answer this evidence.
07:23Stop trying to silence her.
07:25Stop trying to gag her.
07:27Stop trying to hide behind your lawyers.
07:28And millions in dollars in legal fees you're trying to impose on her.
07:33Stop threatening other whistleblowers.
07:35Come to this committee.
07:36Take the oath.
07:37Sit there.
07:37Let us question you.
07:39And give the American people the truth.
07:42We will be waiting for you.
07:44Senator, anything further?
07:45Well said, Mr. Chairman.
07:47I associate myself with your remarks.
07:49And what I would say to him is stop silencing Ms. Wynne Williams.