Il ministro della Difesa olandese, Ruben Brekelmans, ha dichiarato a Euronews che i Paesi Bassi si stanno preparando ad affrontare conversazioni “difficili” riguardo al possibile raddoppio della spesa per la difesa nei prossimi anni.
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03:14è difficile per me dire perché non sto a la tavola di negociazione, non so cosa gli americani dicono a tutti i russi dicono
03:21credo che è molto importante che manteniamo le sancioni in place, che anche expandiamo il numero di sancioni
03:27ma anche fortuna la funzione delle sancioni, perché ora vediamo che queste sancioni sono circunvanti
03:39quindi dovremmo fare molto più su questo, per assicurare che queste sancioni sono più effettive
03:45ma ovviamente ci sono più mani in cui pressione può essere posata su Russia
03:50sono sempre in favore di questo, per esempio anche guardando le opportunità di usare le sancioni russi sancioni
03:55per aiutare l'Ukraine più, perché questo potrebbe sia più pressione su Russia e anche aiutare l'Ukraine
04:03Do you think Belgium or other countries are any closer to agreeing to that?
04:08Of course there are some legal hesitations, there are also some other considerations
04:13I think it is important that we keep looking creatively at opportunities in order to use those frozen assets
04:19and as I said, it is important because we need this continuous flow of military support to Ukraine
04:25because obviously the Netherlands has been a huge supporter of Ukraine with F-16s from a humanitarian perspective
04:30from a legal perspective in terms of investigations into international humanitarian law breaches
04:35but looking at your own government there is a bit of a split
04:38there was a €3.5 billion discussion between the government and the parliament
04:44and one of your political partners Geert Wilders was against supplying more money to Ukraine
04:50Can you tell us a little bit about the situation that you find yourselves now in as a Dutch government
04:56with somebody, a senior partner, really against supporting Ukraine
05:01and how will that fare in the long term?
05:03So we, of course in the Netherlands we have a coalition with four parties
05:07and we created a coalition agreement, it took quite a long time in order to get there
05:11but what we agreed upon is very clear, that our support to Ukraine is unwavering in any dimension
05:17also in the military support, so over the last few years our support has been €3.5 billion on average
05:24and that's why we also decided that we will spend another €3.5 billion next year
05:29and that we will accelerate and front load that support
05:32so that we can already spend €2 billion of this this year
05:34Will the Netherlands have to maybe take money from elsewhere, other social services, health, education, housing and so on
05:41to continue to pay for this, particularly at a time of such global instability when it comes to economics and finances throughout the world?
05:48So if we want to increase our defence budget to a large extent
05:56so of course there is now a discussion about increasing the NATO goal and it's about serious numbers
06:03so in the Netherlands we are around 2% now, that's what's in our budget
06:06and if we grow to a much larger percentage, of course agreeing on that in itself is not a difficult part
06:12but how to fund that, how to finance that
06:15and that will require political decisions that are difficult
06:18there are three options in theory, you either raise taxes, you cut spending or you raise your debt level
06:23and those are all three are difficult political discussions
06:26we are having some of those discussions now in the Netherlands, but that's only for next year
06:31for us an important moment is going to be the NATO summit in The Hague in our country for the first time in history
06:38with the 32 countries we need to agree upon a new NATO defence investment pledge, a new percentage
06:45What would you think is the best option?
06:47Do you think that maybe this financial mechanism within the coalition of the Willing might be something that the Netherlands could borrow off
06:53or do you think money should come from taxes?
06:55because obviously the Americans are saying 5%
06:58maybe it'll come down to 3.54%
07:00but it's still more than double what you're paying already
07:03what would your preference be?
07:05So I think it is important that in every country
07:08whether it's any NATO member, NATO ally or any EU member
07:13every country needs to have this political discussion
07:15so if we want to increase our defence spending
07:18what type of political choices need to be made in order to fund that
07:21and that's not easy for any of us
07:24but we all need to have these national discussions
07:26also in the Netherlands
07:28and for me it's hard to predict what comes out of it
07:31and of course there are EU instruments that can support in this
07:34but the lion's share of this should take place on a national level
07:40Do we know any more in relation to this potential reassurance force or peacekeeping force
07:46or whatever that might look like after your meetings with the coalition of the willing
07:50obviously I know the Netherlands would be involved in it in some way
07:53but do we know what it might look like and whether Europe could be there for a backstop
07:59to support Ukraine with the absence of the United States?
08:03So I think the military planning has taken place over the last few weeks
08:07so it's now becoming more clear how a potential European involvement can look like
08:12but what we do still see is that the coalition of the willing consists of around 30 countries
08:17and different countries still have different interpretations on how such a military engagement should look like
08:24what the objective is, what the mandate should be
08:27how it would relate to a potential monitoring mission
08:30which is something separate but should take place at the front line
08:34Could it happen without the security guarantees of the United States?
08:37Could Europe and the coalition of the willing and other countries stand in for Ukraine
08:42in a way that Ukraine has been failed for so many times?
08:46We need to have the United States on board
08:48in the sense that they are playing a central role now in the negotiations
08:51they are playing a key role when it comes to European security
08:55and also of course when it comes to the support of Ukraine
08:58so they need to be on board in some way
09:01I think what we should do now is make sure that we have a clear plan
09:04that European countries can also say
09:06okay this is what we can bring to the table
09:08and then specifically have the conversation with the United States
09:12on what their role is going to be
09:14but it's too early still to say more details about this
09:17because there are still many different ways in which the United States can be involved
09:21The Netherlands is trying to boost its military or expand its military
09:24and you sent out this questionnaire to 18 to 27 year olds
09:28what are you trying to achieve by sending out a questionnaire to young people
09:32about potentially joining the military?
09:34What would be the objective here?
09:36The objective would be to have people think about
09:38whether they would be interested to join the military
09:42or whether they would do as we call it a service year
09:45so it's a one year in which young people can get to know our military
09:49and after that one year they can decide whether they want to join
09:52or whether they want to become a reservist
09:54or whether they want to do something else
09:55all options are still open
09:57we don't want to have any subscription
10:00that's not what we are going to do
10:02we want to keep it voluntary
10:03but this is a way to have young people think about
10:06whether defence and whether the military would be something for them
10:09But it's a seismic moment isn't it that you're doing that?
10:12So we need to grow in terms of budget
10:14of course we are growing
10:15but we also need to grow in terms of the material that we procure
10:18but also in the number of people
10:20we have currently around 75,000 people working for our Ministry for Defence
10:26we need to grow towards 100,000
10:28and on top of that we want to have much more flexibility
10:31so we need up to another 100,000 more
10:34mostly reservists to make sure that if tensions arise
10:39that we will be able to mobilise more people in order to support our military
10:43Do we know much about America's plans to potentially reduce the troop size in Europe
10:48from 100,000 to potentially 50,000 or somewhere in between?
10:52So far they haven't announced any reduction
10:55the US is committed to NATO
10:56also when it comes to Article 5
10:58they very clearly state that
11:00but they also said that Europe should do much more
11:02that it's not about burden sharing anymore
11:04but about burden shifting
11:05and what I see is a great willingness among European countries
11:08including the Netherlands to step up our efforts
11:10and if then the United States over time
11:13decides to reallocate some of its resources to their own region
11:18for the homeland defence or to the Indo-Pacific or anywhere else
11:23I think the most important thing is that we do this together
11:25and that we create a shared plan
11:27in which they are able maybe to shift some of their resources to other parts of the world
11:32and we as European countries can gradually take over some of those resources
11:36but we need to keep the United States on board
11:39they will remain essential to our security
11:41but I think it's also in the interest of the United States to keep NATO strong
11:46and that's also what they always state
11:48Okay, Ruben Bretlemans, Minister of Defence for the Netherlands
11:51thank you very much for joining us on the Europe Conversation
11:54You're welcome