Michelle Haywood MHK talks about the abuse she has received since the rollout of 20mph speed limits by her Department
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00:00Thank you very much for talking to me, Dr Hayward.
00:02I just thought, first of all, I'd ask,
00:05since these 20 mile an hour speed limit restrictions have come into place,
00:09I've noticed a bombardment on Facebook almost.
00:11A barrage, I don't know if it's gone to the levels of abuse,
00:15I want you to tell me that, but I'd say it's been an absolute pile on,
00:18is my definition of it.
00:19How would you say you've dealt with it?
00:20Absolutely.
00:21So I'm quite open as a politician.
00:24I believe in sharing information,
00:25and I believe in not necessarily allowing misinformation and disinformation
00:29to kind of carry on being repeated.
00:32And you can see numerous examples of somebody starts a rumour.
00:35I think I had a call the other day about,
00:38well, are you putting an all-island speed limit in?
00:40I was like, categorically no.
00:41I said, well, we've had very good information that you are.
00:43It's like, well, I've checked with the department
00:45and we genuinely do not have a work stream on this.
00:47But because one person said it,
00:48and then it becomes that little echo chamber around that,
00:51and then everyone repeats it,
00:52and then suddenly you're into a whole belief system
00:55that my motives are anything other than just trying to do the best job I can
01:01and to implement policy where it's warranted.
01:05So, yeah, I have a general thing of trying to engage as much as possible,
01:12but I think what we've seen over the last couple of weeks
01:14is that level of engagement has just ballooned.
01:17And some of those threads, especially on social media,
01:21it's quite hard to follow the thread and what you're replying to,
01:24the reply doesn't appear nearby it.
01:25And so you find yourself almost repeating an answer
01:28and then people get really angry with you
01:30because you didn't reply to their particular comments.
01:33It's like, well, when 60 notifications pop up within a two-hour span,
01:38even just keeping track of the ones you've replied to is really difficult.
01:41So it's a poor medium for that kind of discussion to take place.
01:47But as I say, my general ethos is to try and engage as much as possible,
01:52and I'm unusual in some of that.
01:54I know that some of my colleagues don't go on social media at all
01:57for that very reason of not being dragged into it.
01:59Others use it just as a broadcasting information,
02:02and I'm one of the few that will engage and make comments and challenge people.
02:06Sometimes it's hard, to be brutally honest.
02:12Sometimes it's fine and there's a few odd comments
02:14and I get people messaging me off the back of those
02:17and we'll have a bigger conversation.
02:21I'll arrange to meet them to talk about their specific issues.
02:25But I think what we've seen over the last few weeks
02:27just reached a level that was just insane at times.
02:30And this has all stemmed from the 29-hour speed limits.
02:33Is this something that you expected when the rollout was...
02:36It doesn't seem to be...
02:38The public don't seem to be as on start with it
02:40as perhaps maybe it was expected.
02:41Would you say you expected this to have backlash as bad as it's been?
02:46I'm not sure.
02:47I think my challenge to that is going to be
02:48I'm not sure you can judge public sentiment from who posts on Facebook
02:51because there is a small cohort of people
02:54who are very noisy on Facebook
02:56and will post things and share things
02:57and sometimes exacerbate the situation.
03:01And I don't think that's necessarily reflective of public commentary overall.
03:07I think I've been out, I've been talking to my constituents
03:10I've had lots of direct messages
03:12and I think there are lots of people who support the 20-mile-an-hour scheme
03:14who won't stick their head above the parapet
03:17and partly because they've seen the kind of bashing
03:20that's been going on about me
03:21and, you know, we always say to people
03:24criticise the policy
03:25it's not the person delivering the policy
03:28that you should have the issue with
03:29but the personal insults and the threats
03:32are what puts everyone else off.
03:34And so I had some lovely person who messaged me
03:38who said, you know, I'm a 22-year-old female who lives on my own
03:41I am not going to publicly comment on this however
03:43and went on to explain her situation to me
03:45and I think there's quite a few people who feel that
03:47that you just don't want to say something
03:50because you have to be quite a strong person
03:52to push back against that negativity all the time.
03:54Absolutely.
03:55Them critics will argue that the petition
03:57has reached over 3,000 people
04:00is that something that you consider?
04:01Is that something that you look at and go
04:03perhaps this is the wrong thing for the Isle of Man?
04:06There's a petition with over 3,000 signatures on it, I believe
04:09if you read the introduction to that petition
04:11it's full of misinformation and disinformation
04:13so I suspect that people signing it
04:16may not have signed
04:17probably with the best intentions
04:19but not with the best information
04:20not with accurate information
04:21however if you set up a petition like that
04:25it's the owner of the petition
04:26who is responsible then
04:28and can access all the data
04:29I can see little screenshots of things
04:31if I scroll through it
04:32but I'm not going to sit and scroll through 3,000 comments
04:35so the owner of the petition
04:37needed to have downloaded the petition
04:39and presented it to the department
04:41so I'm not ignoring that it exists
04:42I obviously know it exists
04:44I can't analyse it because I can't access it
04:47and so I think there's something about
04:49it's really easy to set up a petition
04:50to go to change.org
04:51to type in some random facts
04:54and some leading stuff in there
04:55and dog whistle everyone on social media to pile in
04:59that's absolutely fine
05:00but you have a responsibility if you set it up
05:03to make sure that you do something
05:04with those views that you've represented
05:06so I'm not dismissing them at all
05:08I can't actually access them
05:09it's my big problem here
05:10I did speak to my Welsh counterpart
05:13the Welsh Minister
05:15and there is a petition in Wales
05:16that has over half a million signatures
05:19against the 20 mile an hour scheme
05:21now when you start to work that out
05:23as a proportion of their population
05:25around here you'd have to have
05:27around about 12,000-14,000 people
05:29to be that same level of objection
05:32and we obviously haven't reached
05:33that same height of objection
05:36talking to the Welsh Minister
05:39and everyone's saying
05:40the Wales experiment failed
05:42and that's categorically not true
05:44most of their roads are staying as 20
05:46but local councils now are revising
05:48and checking some of the roads
05:49because they did it as a blanket order
05:51it just, every 30 changed to 20
05:55and that wasn't appropriate in some places
05:56and we haven't, we've done it completely differently
05:58if we've said
05:58well this is the criteria
06:00there have to be houses
06:01or shops or schools
06:02or elderly persons, homes
06:04or whatever it is
06:05something about that makes that area
06:07specifically right for a 20
06:10so I did have a long discussion
06:12with the Welsh Minister
06:13about their experiences
06:14and I think they all still twitch slightly
06:16so I did expect some public backlash
06:19if I'm honest
06:20I think the misinformation
06:22the disinformation
06:23and the kind of exacerbation
06:25of the situation
06:26has generated more of that noise
06:29but I think it's noise
06:31from a relatively small subset of people
06:33and I don't think they're always
06:34making the right comments
06:36so for example
06:37anyone who said to me
06:38no 20 miles an hour on the island
06:40well I've clearly got lots of 20 miles an hour
06:43on the island now
06:43I've got lots of home zones
06:44I've got lots of residential streets
06:46that are 20
06:47and I'm not taking those away
06:48they are staying
06:50they're there for a very good reason
06:51this is a question about
06:52what we add on top of that
06:54if anything
06:55and if you say about 12,000 to 14,000
06:58similar to Wales
06:59it would have to get to that point
07:00for us to maybe consider
07:01is there any reverse on this now
07:03or is this fully going ahead
07:04is this taking place
07:05or can this be looked at again
07:07I think you have to understand the scale of it
07:11so what we did was
07:12we published a map
07:13and said this is
07:13when we've used these criteria
07:14this is all the places
07:16we think should be 20
07:17and this is your chance
07:18to say something about it
07:19will there be 20s at all on the island
07:23there almost certainly will be
07:24there's no reversal
07:25some of those have been in place
07:26for 20 or 30 years
07:27we are not taking them out
07:29some of them
07:30like the one through Balasalla
07:31is there
07:32because of the old bridge
07:33that's there
07:33and the proximity of the buildings
07:35and it definitely needs to be there
07:36and that's not coming out either
07:37so I'm afraid anyone who comments
07:40about no 20 miles an hour
07:41on the island
07:42because we don't want them
07:43they're going to be disappointed
07:44those are staying
07:46what we're doing now
07:47is I've extended the consultation period
07:50so we're going to look at
07:52the northern towns
07:53and villages first
07:54I've produced maps
07:55that show the before
07:57and the after
07:57and then I'm going out
07:59to talk to the commissioners
08:00in each town
08:00the maps will be on public display
08:02and we'll have an extended period
08:03whereby people can tell us
08:05yes this road
08:06no not this road
08:07or I don't think this is appropriate
08:09for this particular location
08:10and here's my reasons why
08:11so in a much more measured way
08:13we'll just look at each town and village
08:15and say what's appropriate for here
08:18and we'll take the local feedback
08:20about what's appropriate
08:21for their particular environment
08:22so it's slowed the process down
08:25a little bit
08:25but it's the right thing to do
08:26because it's probably
08:27one of the bigger changes
08:29that we've ever made
08:30to the island's highways infrastructure
08:32but to allow people
08:34to actually sensibly comment
08:36rather than just blowing up
08:37and going I don't want 20s
08:39because we've got 20s
08:41so you can be irate about it
08:43if you like
08:43I think what we're seeing
08:44from a lot of the feedback
08:45is that if you live on a road
08:47that's proposed to be
08:49a 20 miles an hour
08:49and isn't currently
08:50generally those people are supportive
08:52because you want
08:53the slower traffic speeds
08:54past your house
08:55so your park car's not at risk
08:57your cat's not going to get knocked over
08:58your children can play out
09:00and you know it's safe
09:01and you can cross the road easily
09:02to get to your neighbours
09:03it's the people
09:04that want to drive past at speed
09:05that seem to be the ones
09:07objecting to it
09:07and I think
09:08you should give more weight
09:10to the residents in an area
09:11about how they want their area to feel
09:13and how they want to live in it
09:14so this targeted consultation
09:16should achieve that
09:17and another thing
09:18that's been a big topic
09:19is the enforcement of this
09:20I think there's a lot of misinformation
09:22on social media
09:23and online
09:24about how the police
09:25are going to be out and about
09:26stopping people at certain speeds
09:28and that simply isn't the case
09:29can you tell us
09:30how this is going to be enforced
09:31around the other man
09:32so actually you have to go back
09:33a step before enforcement
09:34so once we've put the signs in
09:35and we know signs
09:36will slow speeds down
09:38there's really good evidence
09:39from that
09:40from across the UK
09:41and different cities
09:42and urban centres
09:43where this has been done
09:44so we know speed signs
09:46will slow everyone down
09:47then we will put monitoring in
09:49on the roads
09:49so that you can go through
09:51and we can see
09:52what the actual speed data is
09:53and we've got a lot of data
09:54existing for roads anyway
09:55so when roads
09:56where we've got problems
09:57we've also got
09:58which is the scheme
09:58we're not developing
09:59at the moment
10:00but we've also got
10:01the worked up highways solution
10:03which basically says
10:04so you engineer a road
10:06so that people can't go through
10:07at a speed
10:08and a really easy example of that
10:10is the planters at St Marks
10:12we did nothing to change
10:14the width of the road
10:14but we put planters there
10:15and it just narrows it enough
10:17that you have to slow down
10:18and that has achieved
10:19a significant reduction in speed
10:21through that structure of St Marks
10:22so it doesn't have to be
10:23big engineering fixes
10:25but it has to be something
10:26about the environment
10:26that changes
10:27that makes the speed drop away
10:30so that would be our next fix
10:32after that
10:32the police will enforce
10:3420 miles an hour speed limits
10:35but they have limited resources
10:37and they'll go out
10:38and they'll enforce
10:39speed limits
10:40at a point where they consider
10:42there to be risk
10:43so if you were routinely
10:45running at 30 miles an hour
10:47or 40 miles an hour
10:47past a school
10:48where there's a clear
10:50and obvious
10:50extra level of risk
10:52then that would be
10:53probably one of the places
10:55they'd target for enforcement
10:56but they can take your speed
10:58into consideration
10:59when anything happens
11:00so if you are in a 20 miles an hour
11:02and doing much more than that
11:03and you have a collision
11:04you can pretty much guess
11:07that they're going to twig
11:08that you were doing more
11:09than the 20 miles an hour
11:10and that will be taken
11:11into consideration
11:12when they decide how to deal with you
11:13I appreciate that explanation
11:14and I'd just like to go back
11:16to you quickly
11:17the levels of abuse
11:18we've seen on social media
11:19might not cover the whole
11:20circle
11:21the past few weeks
11:22what's that been like for you
11:23as a person
11:23and as an MHK
11:24has it been difficult?
11:26it has been hard actually
11:27so I've
11:28it's obviously well known
11:31that there were
11:31threats about
11:32how do you remove a minister
11:33with a shotgun
11:34I've had other threats
11:35that I've received as well
11:37so I have had a meeting
11:38with the police
11:39and we've changed levels
11:41of security
11:42in the department
11:44the Timwald office here
11:46issued security advice
11:48to all members
11:49about meeting with members
11:51of the public
11:51and being out in public spaces
11:53and I must admit
11:54there were a few days
11:56where I was feeling a bit
11:57kind of twitchy almost
11:59because you think
11:59well
11:59once somebody suggests
12:01something on social media
12:02it then makes that okay
12:05it normalises those threats
12:07and if you normalise those threats
12:09then somebody who
12:09perhaps doesn't perceive
12:11the world in the same way
12:12that the rest of us would
12:13looks at those threats
12:15and thinks
12:15well actually
12:15if it's okay
12:16if these people think
12:17I should shoot her
12:18or hang her
12:19or whatever
12:19it's fine if I
12:20take a knife down
12:22because that's
12:23you know
12:23I'm almost feeling enabled
12:25by that behaviour
12:25and I think it's really important
12:27to call that out
12:27and to challenge it
12:28and to say to people
12:29definitely
12:30you can argue the policy
12:32if you like
12:32let's argue that in detail
12:34but what you can't do
12:36is then sort of
12:37start ascribing
12:38all sorts of weird motives to me
12:39this is not my personal agenda
12:41I'm the minister
12:42of the department
12:43Tim Walder's instructed
12:44the department
12:44to deliver on this
12:45I'm just the poster child
12:47for bringing it through
12:48did I set it out
12:51as a personal crusade?
12:52No
12:52you know
12:53quite happily
12:54never have tackled it at all
12:56but my job
12:56as a minister
12:57is to get on
12:58and deliver
12:59what the department
12:59is supposed to be delivering
13:00do I consider myself arrogant?
13:03that upsets me a bit
13:05because I'm probably
13:06the most self-critical person
13:07I know
13:07I don't have an over-inflated
13:09sense of importance
13:10self-importance at all
13:11and so
13:12those
13:13those personal attacks
13:14on you
13:15start becoming
13:16you do start to
13:17wonder a little bit
13:18and I've found myself
13:19I'm really lucky
13:20my friends and family
13:21have been very supportive
13:23and I've kind of
13:24retrenched with them
13:25a little bit
13:25you know
13:26uncork the gin bottle
13:27and have a couple of
13:28a couple of glasses of gin
13:30and a bit of a kind of
13:31de-stress from it
13:33and things
13:34but it is tough
13:35I can imagine
13:36and have they ever
13:37from social media
13:38has it ever become personal?
13:40has it ever been in the street?
13:41have you ever been
13:41anything
13:42any attacks such as that?
13:44because that's where
13:44we don't want to go
13:45obviously
13:46but that's another concern
13:47perhaps a politician
13:48off-duty
13:49walking down the street
13:50has it ever gone?
13:51they've always been
13:51talked to in the street
13:52and you know
13:53my family will know
13:54that if they take me
13:56into a Tesco store
13:57and I'm pushing the trolley on
13:58somebody will stop
13:58and they will carry on
14:00and I'll catch them up
14:00a few aisles later
14:01I did have my son
14:03come back and get me once
14:04because I still couldn't
14:06get away
14:06so I
14:07yeah
14:07and that's the beauty
14:09of Thanks Politics
14:09is that we are so accessible
14:10I'm often around
14:13the dive centre
14:13on a Saturday morning
14:14and my constituents
14:15know that
14:16so they often
14:17stick their heads in
14:18and we'll have
14:1810 minutes of conversation
14:19or whatever
14:20and I really don't want
14:22to lose that
14:22because it's the best
14:23part of the job
14:23is being able to
14:24contact with constituents
14:26I've had a couple of moments
14:27where I've thought
14:28do I want to go there
14:29just in case anyone
14:30says anything
14:31but you're always prepared
14:32that something might happen
14:33I think the only worrying
14:35thing I've had really
14:36outside of the work context
14:37has been some letters
14:39that were delivered
14:40to the house
14:40and one of them
14:41was hand delivered
14:42and it was during
14:43the early hours of the morning
14:44and that's a bit unsettling
14:46because you don't want
14:46to think that at 2 o'clock
14:47in the morning
14:48somebody's coming
14:49to put anonymous letters
14:50through your letterbox
14:51but part of the
14:54sort of set up for us
14:55is that we have to
14:56be open about our address
14:58and we have to publish
14:58that information
14:59and that would be
15:00very different in the UK
15:01that information
15:03wouldn't be out there at all
15:03and our constituency office
15:05and everything
15:05would go through there
15:06we don't have that
15:07level of support here
15:08so we obviously
15:08run our own stuff
15:09and it just makes us
15:11more accessible
15:11and you never really
15:12want to allow
15:13a few of the
15:14disgruntled people
15:16who are going to do
15:17something
15:17that's not acceptable
15:19to cloud
15:21how you interact
15:22with the 99.5%
15:24of people
15:25who are going
15:25to be absolutely lovely
15:26and we'll talk to you
15:27about the issues
15:28and discuss it
15:29and very often
15:30you see the headlines
15:31and that doesn't reflect
15:33what the rest of the detail
15:35is behind the story
15:36and when you sit down
15:37and discuss it with people
15:38you think
15:38okay
15:39we'll get to a reasonable
15:40compromise
15:41of understanding
15:42all the facts around it
15:43and I really don't
15:44want to lose that at all
15:45and sadly
15:46you're probably not the first
15:47and won't be the last
15:48MHK to deal
15:48with this type of abuse
15:49would you say
15:50that there needs to be
15:51done something more
15:52to help the MHKs
15:53to help the politicians
15:54to not necessarily
15:56feel more safe
15:57but something
15:58a way that you guys
15:59can bring it to the
16:00attention of someone
16:01I know you've said
16:02you've contacted the police
16:03but is there a way
16:05maybe in house
16:05that you guys could deal
16:06with this
16:06or maybe there is
16:07that I'm not sure about
16:08we get
16:10you do get some support
16:12from officers
16:12certainly within the department
16:14I get support
16:14from officers
16:15my issue here
16:17is my officers
16:18work really really hard
16:19and at 10 o'clock
16:21on a Saturday night
16:22do I expect anyone
16:23to be sitting there
16:23checking their social media
16:24face
16:25no I don't
16:26and I really don't
16:26want them to be
16:27they absolutely deserve
16:29their time off
16:30with their family
16:31to get away
16:31from the stresses
16:33and strains
16:33of the day job
16:34so these things
16:36don't always occur
16:37in that nice easy way
16:38and I think
16:39different MHKs
16:40take a different view
16:41on it
16:41there are those
16:42that just won't engage
16:43they were never
16:43whatever's said about them
16:45they won't
16:45I'm different
16:47it makes me twitch
16:47you know
16:48you see somebody
16:49saying something
16:49that's obviously untrue
16:50and I feel like
16:52I should give them
16:53the facts
16:53I should give them
16:54the information
16:54and there are others
16:56who just won't
16:57go on there at all
16:58and I think that's
16:59the risk actually
17:00is that it pushes
17:01politicians away
17:03from dealing
17:03with social media
17:04because if you look
17:05at the examples
17:05of how some of us
17:06are treated on there
17:07it's really horrible
17:10and you wouldn't
17:11put yourself forward
17:12into that situation
17:12there was a recent study
17:14about why particularly
17:15women didn't want
17:16to go into politics
17:17and it actually cited
17:18the impact of the media
17:20and particularly social media
17:21on you and your friends
17:23and family
17:23and having seen it
17:24really up close
17:26and very intense
17:27in the last few weeks
17:28I absolutely get it
17:30I'm lucky
17:31all of my children
17:31are older
17:32and you know
17:33in fact I think
17:34a couple of them
17:35have waded in
17:36to kind of defend me
17:37at points as well
17:38but were they younger
17:39and were they still in school
17:40I would be really concerned
17:42about the impact
17:43that reading that
17:44sort of misinformation
17:45about their mum
17:46would have on them
17:47as well
17:48so they're all a bit
17:50more cynical
17:51and grown up
17:53so it's fine
17:54but you can see
17:54members with younger families
17:56they really would want
17:57to shelter them
17:58from that
17:58it's not my stuff
17:59no absolutely not
18:00and just finally
18:01what would you say
18:02to perhaps an MHK
18:04obviously the elections
18:05are coming up next year
18:06people are considering
18:07standing
18:08and perhaps
18:09they're maybe put off
18:10by the abuse
18:11and the way
18:12that the way
18:13that the MHKs
18:14get ridiculed online
18:15and things like that
18:16what would you say
18:17to first of all
18:17someone who
18:18is thinking about standing
18:19and also secondly
18:20about maybe someone
18:21who is thinking
18:22about commenting
18:23about something
18:24personal about an MHK
18:25what would you say
18:26to them
18:26I think if you're
18:28thinking of standing
18:29I think you have
18:29to be aware
18:30that you become
18:30a public figure
18:31and everything
18:32that you or
18:33your immediate family
18:34do
18:34will end up
18:36in the public domain
18:37and you have
18:39to come to terms
18:40with that
18:40or you have
18:41to work out
18:41what your strategy
18:42is for dealing
18:43with those points
18:44in life
18:45and I don't
18:48think there's anything
18:49there's any way
18:50of getting away
18:50from it
18:50I think
18:51when I've challenged
18:53it over the last
18:54few weeks
18:54and called it out
18:55and thank you
18:56very much
18:57for allowing me
18:57to talk about it now
18:58is the only way
19:00that you highlight
19:01that poor behaviour
19:02is to shine
19:03a spotlight on it
19:04and I think
19:05the first post
19:06I put up
19:06the other weekend
19:07was somebody
19:07wishing me
19:08I hope you have
19:09a bad day today
19:10and tomorrow
19:10it was like
19:11why would you
19:12even take time
19:13to sit there
19:13and write a message
19:14in messenger
19:15and send it to somebody
19:16who you've never met
19:17you don't know
19:18the motives
19:18you probably don't
19:19understand all of the
19:20factors around the situation
19:21but just based on
19:22headlines and social
19:23media noise
19:23you feel enabled
19:25enough to just
19:26be abusive
19:27and I think
19:28when you call that out
19:29I think that's
19:30the important part
19:31because if you don't
19:31if you just tacitly
19:32accept that that's there
19:34it'll carry on
19:36and it'll grow more legs
19:37and it'll become
19:38more vicious
19:40and more nasty
19:41because people are looking
19:42to provoke a response
19:43and that's not right
19:45I think calling it out
19:47and trying to say
19:47this is not the level
19:48of discourse
19:50that we expect
19:50within a civilised society
19:52is absolutely
19:53the right thing to do
19:54so I think
19:55so I think for people
19:56who are commenting
19:57they used to have
19:58a little tagline
19:59didn't they
19:59on the phone in
20:00on Manx Radio
20:01about is it truthful
20:02and is it fair
20:03and I think that's
20:06what I challenge people
20:07to do
20:08is not necessarily
20:09repeat the myths
20:11or what somebody
20:12down the pub
20:13told them
20:13or whatever
20:14but to actually
20:15sit there
20:16and read the
20:17official information
20:19but read the information
20:20properly
20:20that's out there
20:21and you know
20:22listen to the debates
20:23in the Quays
20:24or in Timwald
20:25and actually
20:26get the right information
20:27before you comment
20:28don't assume
20:29that just because
20:30there's a policy
20:31that a minister
20:32is delivering
20:32that it's that
20:33minister's personal
20:34crusade
20:35to crack on and do it
20:36there's lots of things
20:37I have to do as minister
20:38there are lots of
20:39policy decisions
20:40I have to make
20:40across a range of things
20:41and they're all done
20:43with the best intentions
20:44about making life
20:46better on the island
20:47they're not done
20:48at any point
20:49to line my pockets
20:50I do not accept
20:51bribes or brown envelopes
20:53if anyone's got any proof
20:53of that
20:54go to the police
20:55because it is a crime
20:56you know
20:57it's not done
20:58because I've got
20:59friends in the business
21:00who are going to profit
21:01none of that at all
21:02we declare all our interests
21:04and we're all really open
21:05and transparent about it
21:06and I think I'm almost
21:07pushing back against
21:08politics is getting
21:11a generally negative
21:12kind of connotation
21:13there's an assumption
21:14of a grand conspiracy
21:16there isn't honestly
21:18you know
21:19it takes me long enough
21:20to arrange a meeting
21:20with six people
21:21to be around the table
21:22a grand conspiracy
21:23is way beyond
21:24my capabilities
21:24so that's not
21:26what I'm doing
21:26I'm working through
21:28delivering policies
21:29and that's the job
21:30and I think
21:31for anyone who's thinking
21:32about commenting
21:33in that space
21:34really
21:35sometimes the comments
21:36that you make
21:37probably reflect on
21:38how you behave
21:39or how you would behave
21:41if you were in this situation
21:42rather than how I'm behaving
21:43and I'd ask them
21:44to just pause
21:45and think about
21:46whether it's worthwhile
21:47or not
21:48thank you very much
21:49Dr Hayward
21:49I'm having a look at
21:50the good bit
22:02So
22:02I'm having a look at
22:03the best
22:03I'm having a look at
22:04what I'm doing
22:05so
22:06I'm having a look at
22:07the best
22:07and the best
22:07and the best
22:09is that they can't
22:10give me a look at
22:11times
22:12I'm having a look at