India sent out a calculated response to Pakistan in the aftermath of the Pahalgam terrorist attack by suspending the Indus Waters Treaty, downgrading its diplomatic ties by calling back the diplomats and also reducing the number of staff members at the Pakistan High Commission in New Delhi from 55 to 30.
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00:00Within 24 hours of the Pahalgam terror attack by Pakistan, state-sponsored radical Islamist terror,
00:06the Cabinet Committee on Security, under the chairmanship of Prime Minister Narendra Modi,
00:11has decided to keep the Indus Water Treaty between India and Pakistan in appearance.
00:18The 1960 India-Pakistan Indus Water Treaty is being held in appearance.
00:26This is a significant, though symbolic message that India is sending out to Pakistan.
00:33Water for Pakistan is what more important than blood of innocent Indians that's repeatedly spilt by Pakistan.
00:41Whether it's the 1993 Mumbai class, the 2611 Mumbai terror attacks, or a series of other terror attacks,
00:48including Pulwama, Pathanpur, Gurdaspur, Udhampur, Nagrata, Samba, Katwa, and now in Pahalgam.
00:57Foreign Secretary Vikram Misri has announced a series of measures that India has decided to take,
01:04which includes further reducing the number of Pakistani diplomats, officials and staff at the Pakistan High Commission in India.
01:11So, from the sanctioned strength of 110, which was already down to 55,
01:16after Pakistan's Pulwama terror attack and India's counter-strike at Balakot, which India called a pre-emptive strike,
01:23it's now going to further come down to just 30, just a skeletal staff of 30.
01:30And this includes sending back Pakistan's military attaché, air attaché, and naval attaché.
01:36They've been declared persona non grata.
01:39They've been told, you pack your bags and leave for Pakistan,
01:43and India is withdrawing India's defence attaché, air attaché, and naval attaché from Pakistan.
01:48Let me quickly list out the measures that Foreign Secretary Vikram Misri announced just a short while back.
01:55So, begin with, end this water treaty to be held in abeyance with immediate effect.
02:00India, of course, wants Pakistan to credibly and irrevocably take action against India-centric terror,
02:07which Pakistan has never done.
02:09Then, the integrated checkpost at Atari.
02:12And this is an important post for movement of diplomats from one country to the other,
02:18and also for some other emergency purposes.
02:22Now, this integrated checkpoint at Atari will be closed with immediate effect.
02:26Those who've already crossed over with valid endorsement, with valid visas,
02:30now have to return.
02:32By the 1st of May, 2025, Pakistani nationals now will no longer be permitted to travel to India
02:38using that Sark Visa Exemption Scheme or the SVES.
02:44Any SVES or Sark Visa Exemption Scheme visas issued in the past are deemed cancelled forthwith.
02:52Any Pakistani national currently in India under the SVES visa has to go back to Pakistan in the next 48 hours.
03:03Very, very important step.
03:05Defense attaches, declared persona non grata.
03:08Their staff also told to go back.
03:10These posts in the respective High Commissions are now being annulled.
03:15Five support staff of the Service Advisors also to be withdrawn by the High Commissions on either side.
03:21So, the overall strength, like we said, comes down to 30 from 55.
03:26Let's quickly listen in to Foreign Secretary Vikram Misri before I get you more.
03:31Not just on the steps taken, but the ramifications.
03:34And are these the only steps that India intends to take?
03:37Or is this just the beginning?
03:39This is just the signal of intent.
03:41And the real action will only follow after this.
03:44That remains to be seen.
03:46But listen in to Vikram Misri.
03:47Recognizing the seriousness of this terrorist attack, the CCS decided upon the following measures.
03:571. The Indus Waters Treaty of 1960 will be held in abeyance with immediate effect
04:06until Pakistan credibly and irrevocably abjures its support for cross-border terrorism.
04:142. The integrated checkpost Atari will be closed with immediate effect.
04:20Those who have crossed over with valid endorsements may return through that route before 1 May 2025.
04:313. Pakistani nationals will not be permitted to travel to India under the SARC Visa Exemption Scheme Visas.
04:41Any SVAS visas issued in the past to Pakistani nationals are deemed cancelled.
04:48Any Pakistani national currently in India under SVAS visa has 48 hours to leave India.
04:574. The Defence, Military, Naval and Air Advisors in the Pakistani High Commission in New Delhi are declared persona non grata.
05:07They have a week to leave India.
05:10India will be withdrawing its own Defence, Navy and Air Advisors from the Indian High Commission in Islamabad.
05:185. These posts in the respective High Commissions are deemed annulled.
05:245 support staff of the Service Advisors will also be withdrawn from both High Commissions.
05:31The overall strength of the High Commissions will be brought down to 30 from the present 55
05:39through further reductions to be effected by 1 May 2025.
05:455. The CCS reviewed the overall security situation and directed all forces to maintain high vigil.
05:556. It resolved that the perpetrators of this attack will be brought to justice and their sponsors held to account.
06:046. As with the recent extradition of Tahavur Rana,
06:10India will be unrelenting in the pursuit of those who have committed acts of terror
06:16or conspired to hold them, to make them possible.
06:20And for benefit of viewers who are joining us, what does the Indus Water Treaty actually mean?
06:29What is the Indus Water Treaty?
06:30What does holding in abeyance mean?
06:32Is this symbolic?
06:33Is this just a signal of intent?
06:36So the Indus Water Treaty was signed in 1960.
06:40On the 19th of September, it was signed by then Prime Minister of India, Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru
06:46and Ayub Khan on the Pakistani side.
06:49This was of course negotiated by the World Bank and this was a very, very long negotiation
06:53for about a decade, nine years to be precise.
06:57The treaty has 12 articles and eight annexures.
07:00Now what does this mean?
07:02The Indus Water Treaty talks about river water sharing between India and Pakistan
07:08and predominantly the five rivers of Punjab, Satloj, Ravi, Bayas, Chinab, Jhelam
07:13and of course the Indus River.
07:15So India is to use the eastern rivers, Pakistan to use the western rivers.
07:21So what are the eastern rivers that are allocated to India or the waters of the eastern river?
07:26Ravi, Bayas and Satloj.
07:29So of the Punjab, you know, Punjab, Panch, Pani, Nadiyoka, Pani.
07:34So Satloj, Ravi, Bayas, Chinab, Jhelam.
07:36So Ravi, Bayas and Satloj.
07:39India is to use water of these eastern rivers.
07:43Pakistan was allocated water of the western rivers.
07:4680% by Pakistan, 20% by India and that is Chinab, Jhelam and Indus.
07:53When the Indus Water Treaty stands suspended or in abeyance,
07:58what will be the impact on Pakistan?
08:01Now when you say that it's in abeyance, it doesn't mean India will stop water right away
08:05because if India has to stop water, where will that water go?
08:07A lot of infrastructure needs to be developed but that's a signal of intent that India is sending out to Pakistan.
08:14India of course has run of the river dams.
08:17Pakistan has also objected to that in the past but it's lost the cases.
08:21Run of the river dams means that you can generate electricity out of that water
08:26but you cannot stop that water or divert that water impact on Pakistan.
08:32Should India even utilize the 20% that's authorized to India and officially allocated to India,
08:39even 20% which is done, we don't even do that.
08:41Pakistan gets much more and yet Pakistan is water staffed
08:45because Pakistan doesn't believe in water management or at least doesn't do it effectively.
08:48But in case India were to use the entire 20%, Pakistan would be in grave trouble.
08:55It threatens food security in Pakistan.
08:57It creates a severe water crisis in Pakistan.
09:00There already is one.
09:01Allows India to use water better, whether it's to generate electricity, divert that water,
09:08utilize it better in Punjab where it is required.
09:12And in Pakistan, a lot of their agricultural land,
09:15and this is Punjab, Pakistani part of Punjab's worst nightmare.
09:18A lot of their agricultural land could turn barren
09:21and create a massive environmental impact for Pakistan.
09:25And that's just one step.
09:27India is saying, if we were to hold or relook or seek to renegotiate the Indus Water Treaty,
09:33Pakistan would be in grave danger.
09:35Pakistan now has to decide they prefer terror or they want the water.
09:39Meer Farid joins me live from Pehalgaam,
09:42ground zero of the terror attack that took place.
09:44Shashank Mattu is with me from the National Capital,
09:46who was at that press conference.
09:48Meer, to you first, the situation on ground right now.
09:53Counter-terror measures, we are told, are being taken.
09:56But Kashmir, is it already, unfortunately, feeling the brunt?
10:00We are told there are large-scale cancellations of reservations,
10:03tourists leaving, and Pakistan's actions would really adversely impact people in Kashmir.
10:08Yes, in fact, Goddard, since morning we've seen cancellations.
10:18And in fact, from yesterday, the exodus started.
10:21As soon as the news spread, those gory visuals went viral,
10:25people came to know about it and one wouldn't fault them.
10:28There were families here and they decided that the best possible measure right now
10:33was to go to safer zones, some went to security force camp, some straight to Srinagar.
10:38There are still some who are here, but obviously they are waiting for the road to open Srinagar-Jambu National Highway.
10:44So already the attack having a ripple effect, a damaging effect on Kashmir tourism as was expected.
10:50But as far as the counter-measures are concerned, they are still ongoing.
10:56We've been told that the forest area is being scanned.
10:59And as we've been saying since yesterday, this is a multi-force, in fact, synergy.
11:05And they're going about it in a calculated manner.
11:08They're going from different directions.
11:10But overall, if you look at the counter-terror measures,
11:14you had an encounter in Kulgam where it's still going on,
11:18an infiltration bid negated in Uri, two infiltrators shot, dead ammunition recovered.
11:22Multiple operations are going on.
11:24So quite clearly after a home minister's visit, he has given a free hand.
11:28And it's not just about Pahlgaam, but Pan Valley,
11:31they have been told to improve security situation and finish the threat
11:35and ensure that there is no threat, especially from the DRM.
11:38And perhaps stop working in silos, have better coordination between intelligence agencies,
11:43between security forces, not look for laurels, but for terrorists,
11:48and neutralize those terrorists.
11:49That is so, so desperately required so that we can save lives of our people
11:54killed by these radical Islamist terrorists.
11:57Shashank, you were there at that press conference.
12:00You heard the Foreign Secretary in the government.
12:03What's the thinking?
12:04Are these the measures that we're taking?
12:06Or is this just a crucial first step, Shashank?
12:08I think at this point in time, Gaurav, the government of India, when we spoke to them,
12:12were very, very clear that the Indus Water Treaty is really the star of the show
12:16when it comes to these five measures that India has ordered.
12:19Because Pakistan will understand how important this is.
12:2180% of Pakistan's water comes from the Indus Water Basin.
12:2490% of its agricultural output is sustained by the Indus Water Treaty.
12:29India is sending a very, very key message here.
12:31The treaty, as you rightly mentioned, was negotiated in 1960.
12:34It stood the test of time for 65 years until India decided to put it into abeyance.
12:39It's sending a very clear message to Pakistan that this is not business as usual.
12:43The ball is in your court.
12:44If you continue to follow these policies, we are ready to take steps
12:48that would have been considered unprecedented even just a couple of years ago.
12:51You are not dealing with the same India.
12:53On the other steps that you're seeing, whether it's the cancellation of visas,
12:56the reduction in the diplomatic personnel,
12:58whether you're also talking about the closing of the Atari-Waga border,
13:00India is sending a message that, look, we just do not want to have the level of contacts,
13:06whether at the elite level or the popular level, that we once did with Pakistan.
13:10We do not want anything to do with you.
13:12That is a clear message that is being sent.
13:13So we can, number one, also, but also,
13:16Gaurav, I also have to point out when we were speaking to the government,
13:18they were very clear that we used this one word, abeyance.
13:20The treaty has been placed into abeyance because it could be revived.
13:23India is also very clearly saying that the treaty could be revived at some point in time
13:27if Pakistan reconsiders its policy on terrorism.
13:30So that is...
13:31Is that big message, is India sending out that big message?
13:35Ambassador Rajiv Dogra, former top diplomat, joins me on the show,
13:38was a council general in Karachi in Pakistan, knows the Pakistani mind well.
13:43Colonel Dini joins me on the broadcast,
13:45somebody who served on ground at the line of control and at the line of actual control.
13:50But Ambassador Dogra, your appreciation of, let's take this step by step,
13:55the Indus Water Treaty being held in abeyance.
13:58Now, is this a symbolic step?
14:01Is this a signal of intent?
14:03Does this satisfy people more domestically?
14:06Or does it send out a clear message to Pakistan?
14:09I'm glad you started with the Indus Water Treaty.
14:13In fact, my book, Where Borders Bleed,
14:17which was published 10 years back, had two chapters.
14:20One was on Article 370, where I strongly advocated that it be abolished.
14:26Second was on the Indus Water Treaty,
14:29where I wrote chapter and verse on how it was the most generous water treaty in the world
14:35and how it should be revoked.
14:37I'm glad the government has taken the first step in keeping it in abeyance
14:42as a warning to Pakistan, behave.
14:45But there's a background to the Indus Water Treaty.
14:47First, at the time in 1960, when it was signed,
14:53America was signing a treaty with Mexico,
14:57where it was hardly giving a pittance of water to Mexico.
15:02But America was making sure that India gave the most generous water treaty to Pakistan,
15:09as its ambassador in Islamabad of that time,
15:14wrote back to State Department that India is in big financial trouble.
15:19This is the time to teach Pandit Nehru rules of international behavior.
15:25So it was to punish India that Washington, through World Bank,
15:30made India sign that treaty.
15:31But now, the wheel has turned full circle.
15:35Let me also recall what Jinnah said about sharing waters from India.
15:40This was before the partition.
15:43Both Jinnah and Nehru were there,
15:45and the British asked them as to what is your opinion.
15:49Nehru, of course, was generous.
15:50But Jinnah said, rather than take Hindu water,
15:56I would let Pakistan become a desert.
15:59So we have come to a point where if terrorism continues,
16:03I think not just keeping it in ambience,
16:05we should revoke the Indus Water Treaty,
16:08because nothing in the world obliges us to continue with this,
16:12as long as terrorism continues.
16:13You know, that's such a pertinent point you make.
16:16And, you know, I want to come back to you for more on Jinnah's point,
16:20but I also want to bring in Colonel Dini.
16:22On the Pakistani mindset,
16:24which many in our country, unfortunately,
16:26fail to fathom, fail to understand,
16:28Colonel Dini,
16:30look at Jinnah's mindset.
16:31Muhammad Ali Jinnah lived in Bombay,
16:34enjoyed the best of India,
16:36wanted to be Prime Minister,
16:38carved out a separate country.
16:40That same hatred for Hindus.
16:42From 1947, Jinnah's mind,
16:45I would rather let Pakistan become a desert,
16:48than take Hindu water.
16:50Then take Hindu water.
16:51This was Jinnah's mindset.
16:53And 2025,
16:55here, that Mullah Asim Munir,
16:57who masquerades as the Pakistan army chief,
17:00you know, 50 shades of Hafiz Saeed,
17:02I mean, that's the only way you can describe these Pakistanis,
17:05from perhaps Jinnah,
17:07to Asim Munir,
17:09Colonel Dini,
17:10it's that same mindset,
17:11services understand so much better,
17:14being the,
17:14you know,
17:15facing the brunt of it,
17:17at the line of control for decades.
17:20Absolutely,
17:21Gaurav,
17:22there is no doubt that that mindset has not changed.
17:24That's what clearly was brought to the fore by General Asif Munir,
17:29as recent as past one week,
17:31last one week before.
17:32So,
17:32that is exactly the problem also,
17:34you know,
17:34these,
17:35these,
17:35these people think that,
17:37you know,
17:37they can do anything with India,
17:39and they can get away with it.
17:40That's the kind of mindset which they had,
17:42right from 1947.
17:44You know,
17:45however hard you hit them,
17:46they just don't seem to,
17:48you know,
17:48learn any lesson.
17:50And,
17:50and this particular,
17:52you know,
17:52this particular step of,
17:54at least suspending or keeping it in advance in this water treaty,
17:58I think it's a huge step,
18:00precisely because I think this will definitely bring about the behavioral change,
18:04what we keep on saying.
18:06Why I say so is,
18:07it affects the common man in Pakistan.
18:10We already know that the Pakistan army stature in Pakistan is absolutely down today.
18:15He,
18:16the person who walks in,
18:17on the streets of Pakistan,
18:19he does not even wear the uniform because that is the kind of,
18:23you know,
18:23the kind of disrespect the common man has for Pakistan army.
18:27Now,
18:28when this interswater treaty gets,
18:30you know,
18:30the suspension will create problems for the common man.
18:33He will ask,
18:34why am I suffering this?
18:37For whom am I suffering this?
18:38If Pakistan army has to be relevant,
18:40it should not be at our cost.
18:42It should not be at our cost.
18:44So then,
18:44then Pakistan army will,
18:46you know,
18:46what we saw,
18:47what happened at the co-commander's residence,
18:49that is what is going to happen in the future,
18:51because these people will get behind Pakistan army and teach them a lesson.
18:55And what we saw in the co-commander's house,
18:58what we didn't have to do anything.
19:00This will be done by the people of Pakistan to Pakistan army.
19:04But that's a pertinent point that you make,
19:05but will that actually happen?
19:07Or is that,
19:07you know,
19:08a pipe dream?
19:09Because Imran Khan is already in jail.
19:11I'll come to Imran Khan's point in just a moment,
19:13because in Pakistan,
19:15they say,
19:15either Imran Khan will survive,
19:17or Aasem Muneer will survive.
19:19And when he creates hatred towards India,
19:21then Aasem Muneer goes up that survival ladder,
19:24more than Imran Khan,
19:25because then it becomes a question of Pakistan's survival.
19:28And Aasem Muneer,
19:30once again,
19:30instead of being the terrorist that he is,
19:32will be seen as the savior of Pakistanis.
19:34But I want to understand this from you,
19:37Ambassador Dogra,
19:38before I bring in Shashank and Mir
19:39into this conversation once again.
19:42I want to understand from you,
19:43Ambassador Dogra,
19:44what will be the impact on the Pakistani mind?
19:47Will there be any impact on ground just as yet?
19:50Or will India have to create infrastructure
19:52for any impact on ground,
19:55point one and point two?
19:56On the mind of the Pakistani farmers,
19:59or Pakistan, Punjab,
20:01and in Karachi,
20:02what will be the impact?
20:04Well, the impact will start
20:06once the waters stop flowing.
20:09Till then,
20:10the villages in Pakistan is not affected.
20:13What the villagers and citizens of Sindh
20:17are most disturbed by
20:18are the news reports
20:20and actually action on ground
20:22by Pakistani Punjab government
20:25to build five further canals
20:27diverting in dust waters.
20:30So there's a big agitation going on.
20:32And in fact,
20:33Bhutto Jr.
20:36has threatened to walk out of the coalition
20:38if it continues.
20:40But there is big trouble in Pakistan
20:43about water sharing.
20:44So I don't think we have to continue
20:47to be generous at our expense.
20:50Let me give you another point
20:53in this Indus Voters thing.
20:55We were so naive
20:57when this treaty was being signed
20:59that the chief negotiator from our side,
21:02Gulati,
21:03in fact,
21:03again,
21:04I mentioned it in their borders fleet.
21:06He said,
21:07I made a huge blunder.
21:08I did not think that our population
21:11would increase
21:11or industries would come up
21:14in Punjab and Jammu
21:15and we would need more waters.
21:18So there was no provision
21:19for more waters.
21:20Can you think of another instance
21:22where we were so blind
21:24of our own needs?
21:25But let me make one more point
21:28and that is
21:30the emphasis only
21:32on the diplomatic side
21:34of CCS meeting.
21:36In fact,
21:36there's a huge diplomatic
21:38strategic message.
21:40If you
21:41read out
21:43Foreign Secretary's
21:44statement
21:46at the press meeting
21:48a couple of minutes back,
21:51in the end,
21:53he has a very,
21:54very strong message
21:55to Pakistan
21:55that we will hit
21:58not just
21:59the perpetrators
21:59of terror
22:00but also
22:01their masters,
22:04their sponsors.
22:05So I think
22:06that is the strategic message
22:07which people
22:09are missing
22:09and which people
22:10should keep
22:12their ears tuned to.
22:14The second strategic message...
22:15Probably,
22:16no,
22:16Ambassador,
22:17we were actually
22:18hoping to see that
22:19when we do
22:20and we are very patient people
22:22because we've seen
22:23after Uri
22:24in 2016,
22:26after the attack
22:26at the Uri military base,
22:28it took the Indian Army
22:2910 days to respond
22:31but within 10 days,
22:32the surgical strike
22:33had been carried out.
22:34After Pulwama terror attack,
22:36it took the army
22:3612 days in 2019,
22:38the Air Force,
22:3912 days to carry out
22:40the Balakot airstrikes.
22:42So,
22:42you know,
22:42we saw that subtext
22:44and we're waiting
22:44whether it takes a week,
22:4610 days,
22:46a fortnight
22:47or longer
22:48for India to respond
22:49because that is an action
22:50that we want to see
22:51on ground
22:51and not just hear words.
22:53But I also want to bring
22:54in Geeta Mohan,
22:55our Foreign Affairs editor,
22:56into this conversation.
22:57And Geeta,
22:58you're plugged into
22:59what's happening
22:59across the border.
23:01What's the impact?
23:03What's the buzz
23:04in the Pakistani media?
23:06What are you picking up
23:07on the Indus Water Treaty
23:08and on actions
23:09that Foreign Secretary
23:10Vikram Misri
23:10just announced?
23:12Well,
23:13the Pakistani media,
23:14Gaurav,
23:15has now reports
23:16coming in
23:17saying,
23:17citing sources
23:18that there is going
23:20to be reciprocity.
23:22Not understanding
23:23the fact
23:23that India
23:24unilaterally
23:25announced reciprocity.
23:28They not only said
23:29that there's going
23:29to be downsizing
23:30of the Pakistan
23:32High Commission here,
23:33that they are going
23:34to downsize
23:35the Indian High Commission
23:37in Islamabad
23:39by withdrawing
23:41key critical officials
23:42and staff
23:43from the High Commission.
23:45Now,
23:45one thing,
23:45Pakistan can always say
23:47that,
23:47well,
23:47that doesn't really
23:48make a difference
23:50because there weren't
23:51any official conversations
23:52that were happening
23:53between the two sides.
23:55There is another thing
23:56that they can say
23:57about the Indus Water Treaty
23:59which has not been
23:59completely scrapped or null.
24:01It has been kept
24:03in abeyance.
24:04But the fact
24:05that negotiations
24:06will not happen,
24:07this is just a step
24:08towards what could
24:10very well be
24:11India's ultimate goal
24:12should Pakistan
24:14continue with its
24:15adventurism.
24:16But they can just say
24:17that.
24:18The fact of the matter
24:20is that these are
24:21important diplomatic
24:22decisions that have
24:24been taken.
24:25The international
24:25community is watching
24:27and taking note of it.
24:29There could be
24:30ramifications
24:31and maybe some
24:35decisions by various
24:36countries in how
24:37they would want to
24:38look at Pakistan.
24:39a dossier will be
24:41prepared, Gaurav,
24:42like India did
24:44all through 2008,
24:46Mumbai terror attacks,
24:47Sulwama,
24:48Uri,
24:49and the international
24:50community will
24:51get a piece of
24:55the document
24:55to understand
24:57the gravity
24:58of the situation.
24:59You know,
25:00frankly,
25:00I don't have much
25:01faith in dossiers
25:02and Pakistan taking
25:02action on dossiers
25:03considering the number
25:05of dossiers India
25:06has submitted
25:06after the
25:08parliament attack,
25:09after Uri attack,
25:10after Pulwama,
25:11including getting
25:12ISI to Padhan
25:13court.
25:14No, no, no.
25:14The dossier is not
25:15to Pakistan.
25:16Sharing with the
25:18international community
25:19to understand
25:19what Pakistan is doing.
25:19So you get
25:20international sympathy.
25:21We're too strong
25:22to need international
25:23sympathy.
25:23Why would we need
25:24international sympathy?
25:25I want to understand
25:25that.
25:26It's not sympathy.
25:27It is not sympathy.
25:28It is action.
25:30There could be
25:30action and responses
25:31from countries,
25:34from unexpected
25:35quarters for Pakistan.
25:36There is no love
25:37loss now between
25:39the West and
25:41Pakistan and how
25:42Pakistan has been
25:44duping them,
25:45not just with money,
25:46the aid that goes in,
25:48but if it is being
25:49funneled to promote
25:51terrorism, then I
25:52think there is going
25:53to be a shift.
25:54India is not the same
25:54as it was.
25:55There is going to be
25:56a change.
25:57There is going to be
25:58a shift.
25:58But there are two
25:59strategies here.
26:00One is diplomatic.
26:01Vikram Misri ended
26:02by talking about the
26:03second one, which is
26:04that the perpetrators
26:05are the ones behind
26:06it will have to pay.
26:08Expect a military
26:09strategy too.
26:10There is going to be
26:11a military response.
26:12The Indian
26:12administration over
26:13here is not going
26:15to just stick to one.
26:16The other will be
26:17employed how, when,
26:19will be of the
26:20government of India's
26:21choosing.
26:22Oh, absolutely.
26:23Absolutely.
26:24And considering we've
26:24seen the surgical
26:26strikes, we've seen
26:27the airstrikes,
26:28Colonel Dini,
26:30Pakistan may have
26:30denied any impact
26:32of the airstrikes
26:33and Pakistan may have
26:34claimed that only
26:35crows were killed
26:36and trees were
26:37damaged, it was
26:38Pakistan's Izzat
26:39and it was
26:40Pakistan's Iqbal.
26:41They neither have
26:42Izzat nor Iqbal.
26:44If 12 Indian
26:45fighter jets can
26:46cross the L.C.,
26:47bomb across the
26:48international border,
26:49all of them can
26:50come back and
26:51Pakistan can do
26:51little about it.
26:53So neither Izzat
26:53nor Iqbal for
26:55Fizaya that Pakistan
26:56Air Force claims to be,
26:57Colonel Dini.
26:59Absolutely, Gaurav.
26:59See, it is not
27:01you or me who
27:02said that the
27:03Pakistan army chief
27:04was literally
27:05shivering and
27:07you know, when
27:07this Balakot
27:09airstrike was
27:09carried out, it
27:11was said on the
27:12floor of the
27:13Pakistan parliament
27:14by a member of
27:15the parliament of
27:16Pakistan that this
27:17is what happened
27:17and khuda ke
27:18vaste Abhinandan
27:20ko chhoddo
27:20was what they
27:21said.
27:21So they know
27:22it, we know
27:23it, what was
27:24done.
27:24So, and I'm
27:25very sure that the
27:26powers to be there,
27:27they know that
27:28India will strike.
27:29There's no doubt
27:30as Ambassador
27:31Dogra also was
27:32mentioning earlier
27:32that this is going
27:33to be a, you
27:34know, what, this
27:35is not just one
27:36dimensional response
27:38by India.
27:39It is going to be
27:40the whole of
27:41nation approach.
27:42That's what is
27:43happening.
27:43You know, it is
27:44just not the
27:45military approach
27:46or a diplomatic
27:46approach or an
27:47economic approach.
27:48It's everything
27:48together bringing
27:50to the might of
27:52India so that
27:53this kind of
27:54action can never
27:56happen again.
27:56this is not
27:57just an
27:57ordinary militant
27:59strike on
28:01India.
28:01It is much
28:02more than that.
28:03They had
28:03nefarious designs
28:04to create
28:05communal division
28:06within India
28:07and to top it
28:09all, what
28:10General Asif
28:10Munir mentioned
28:11a week ago.
28:12It's a clear
28:13sign, a clear
28:14indication that
28:15the designs are
28:16much more, you
28:18know, bigger than
28:18what comes, you
28:20know, to us.
28:21It's much more
28:22bigger than that.
28:23You know, and
28:24before I bring
28:24in Geetha into
28:25this conversation,
28:26there's another
28:27personal barb or
28:31jibe that these
28:32terrorists had
28:33towards our
28:33Prime Minister,
28:34Ambassador Dogra.
28:35When the women
28:37said, you've
28:38killed our
28:39husband, kill us
28:40too, they said
28:41no, we want you
28:42to watch this and
28:43we want you to go
28:44and tell Modi, go
28:45tell your Prime
28:46Minister.
28:46So, you know,
28:47some two-bit
28:48radical Islamist
28:49terrorist is saying
28:51that about our
28:51Prime Minister.
28:52clearly, it's a
28:53mindset, it's a
28:55jinna mindset that
28:56comes to Asim
28:57Munir, percolates
28:58down to these
28:58terrorists,
28:59which means they
29:01will see him as
29:03someone who's a
29:03big hindrance in
29:05their gazvai hind
29:06that they want to
29:08wage against India
29:09for such a long
29:10time, Ambassador
29:11Dogra.
29:12So, somewhere down
29:12the line, India's
29:13actions will have
29:14to be much more
29:15than the actions
29:16announced today.
29:18Well, absolutely.
29:20And, you know,
29:22what worries me
29:23immensely is the
29:25difference between
29:26the previous
29:26Pakistani army
29:28chief, Bajwa.
29:29And I'll give you
29:31two specific
29:32instances.
29:33One, which
29:34Colonel has just
29:35very rightly
29:36mentioned, that
29:37his legs were
29:38shivering when
29:38the balakot was
29:40going on and
29:42our pilot had
29:43to be released.
29:44He understood
29:45the implications
29:47of escalation
29:48beyond the
29:49point.
29:49But this
29:50particular
29:51general, General
29:52Mudir, is
29:53a fundamentalist
29:55and he's a
29:56terrorist in
29:57military uniform.
29:59So, I think
30:00we have to be
30:00very careful
30:01as to what
30:03kind of a
30:03reaction, what
30:04kind of
30:05irresponsible
30:05actions this
30:07general is
30:08capable of
30:09carrying out.
30:10So, as
30:11far as the
30:12concrete actions
30:13are concerned,
30:14I think, as
30:16you very rightly
30:17mentioned, we
30:18have to wait
30:19for a few
30:20days, maybe
30:21even weeks,
30:22just as
30:23Israel had
30:24done, just
30:25as we had
30:25done earlier
30:27in two
30:27cases, we
30:29will hit
30:30them when
30:31it suits
30:32us and
30:33when we
30:34think time
30:35is right.
30:35But surely
30:36we are going
30:37to send out
30:37a message.
30:38And let me
30:39add one more
30:40thing.
30:40There was
30:40another very
30:41important message
30:42that Foreign
30:42Secretary has
30:43conveyed in
30:44a statement
30:44that the
30:48military personnel
30:49of Pakistan
30:51High Commission
30:52in India
30:53needs to be
30:55repatriated.
30:55We will, of
30:56course, withdraw
30:56our personnel.
30:58And the
30:58reason is, all
31:00these three
31:00wings were
31:01starved by
31:02ISI personnel.
31:03So, we do
31:04not want ISI
31:05personnel
31:05snooping around
31:06any longer
31:07when we
31:08are thinking
31:08of some
31:10action or
31:11the other
31:12against these
31:13Pakistanis who
31:14sponsor terror
31:16attacks against
31:17India.
31:18Oh, absolutely.
31:19Geeta, the
31:20other steps,
31:21and let's
31:21quickly go over
31:22some of the
31:22other steps that
31:23India has
31:23announced.
31:24So, for
31:24example, this
31:25integrated check
31:26post at
31:26Atari to be
31:27closed with
31:28immediate effect.
31:28Those who've
31:29crossed over with
31:30valid visas and
31:31endorsements have
31:32to return on
31:33or before the
31:341st of May
31:342025.
31:36And then
31:36Pakistani
31:36nationals
31:37will now no
31:38longer be
31:38permitted to
31:39come to
31:39India under
31:39that SARC
31:40visa exemption
31:41scheme or
31:42SVES.
31:43What impact
31:44will this
31:45have, perhaps
31:46except beyond
31:47people-to-people
31:48ties?
31:50Not just
31:50people-to-people
31:51ties.
31:52Medical
31:52attention.
31:53A lot of
31:54Pakistanis,
31:55because of
31:56lack of
31:57infrastructure and
31:59facilities in
31:59Pakistan, actually
32:01look to India
32:01and come to
32:02India for
32:03treatment.
32:04That is not
32:05going to
32:05happen.
32:06The impact
32:07Gaurav is
32:08going to
32:08be on
32:09people, but
32:10then somebody
32:12has to stand
32:13up in
32:14Pakistan and
32:15stop the
32:15Pakistani
32:16military or
32:17the establishment
32:18from doing
32:19what it's
32:19doing.
32:20Keeping
32:21Kashmir at
32:22the center,
32:23the front of
32:23their policies
32:24has not
32:25helped Pakistan.
32:27Look, let me
32:28just take you
32:28back a little.
32:29We've seen
32:30tourists attack
32:31in 2025.
32:33We've not seen
32:34tourists being
32:34attacked in the
32:35recent past.
32:36But remember
32:371995, six
32:39foreign tourists
32:40were kidnapped
32:41by Harkatul
32:42Ansar, that's
32:43Jaish and
32:43Mohammed today.
32:45One beheaded.
32:47The other's
32:47bodies were
32:48found.
32:48Only one
32:49escaped.
32:50And Kashmir
32:52continued to be
32:53resilient.
32:53India continued
32:54to be resilient.
32:56Got up, they
32:57could not break
32:58Kashmir, they
32:59will still not
33:00manage to break
33:00Kashmir.
33:01My only humble
33:02submission over
33:04here is that
33:05right now, Kashmir
33:06is not safe,
33:07Gaurav.
33:08But the day
33:09the Indian
33:09administration and
33:10security agencies
33:11say it is safe
33:12to go to
33:12Kashmir, don't
33:13abandon it.
33:14Don't stop
33:16going to
33:16Kashmir because
33:17then you're
33:18abandoning
33:19Kashmiris and
33:20Kashmir itself.
33:22Tourism is the
33:23life itself.
33:23Very pertinent
33:24point to make
33:24there.
33:25I want to
33:25bring in
33:25Sushant Sareen
33:26who joins us
33:27on this broadcast.
33:28Also joining us
33:28is Leftman
33:29General Rameshwar
33:29Yadav, former
33:30Director General
33:31of Infantry on
33:32this special
33:33broadcast.
33:33And we want to
33:34discuss this
33:35threadbare.
33:36Sushant Sareen,
33:37you've heard what
33:38the Foreign
33:39Secretary said.
33:40You've read
33:40through that
33:41statement.
33:42The Cabinet
33:42Committee on
33:43Security meeting
33:44that started at
33:456 o'clock lasted
33:47till close to
33:479.
33:48your appreciation
33:50of the outcome
33:51so far and
33:52that last
33:53paragraph that
33:54talks about
33:54what may
33:55happen in
33:55future.
33:57So I think
33:59the decisions
34:00which have been
34:00taken on the
34:01bilateral front
34:02are very
34:03significant,
34:04especially the
34:05suspension of
34:06the Indus
34:06Waters treaty.
34:07I think that
34:08is the single
34:09most significant
34:10step India has
34:11taken in a
34:12long, long
34:13time.
34:13time and
34:14frankly, it
34:15rids us of
34:17the kind of
34:17obstructionism that
34:18Pakistan would
34:19create on the
34:20dams that we
34:21were constructing
34:22and it gives
34:23us a certain
34:24leeway in the
34:25immediate, it
34:26gives us some
34:27leeway to
34:27disrupt water
34:29flows into
34:30Pakistan on the
34:31existing structures.
34:32But there are
34:33other structures
34:33that we are
34:34building and
34:34now we are
34:35free to build
34:36them the way
34:37we want to
34:37build them.
34:38Even if they
34:39are going to
34:39be run of
34:39the river
34:40projects,
34:40which most
34:41likely they
34:41will be,
34:42we can build
34:43them in a
34:43way that we
34:44can very
34:45easily start
34:46disrupting
34:46water flows
34:47on the main
34:48rivers from
34:49either the
34:50tributaries or
34:51the rivers on
34:52which these
34:52dams are being
34:53constructed and
34:54that will have
34:55a devastating
34:55impact on
34:56Pakistan because
34:57if you start
34:58impounding water
34:59at a time when
35:00they need it,
35:00that's the end of
35:01their agriculture
35:02as it exists.
35:03So that's
35:04significant.
35:05I think it's
35:05also significant
35:06that we've,
35:07I hope at least,
35:08we've stopped
35:09this circus,
35:10very cringe kind
35:11of a thing which
35:12used to happen
35:13on Vaga border,
35:14Atari border.
35:15I hope we've
35:16stopped this
35:17nonsense that,
35:18you know,
35:19like cocks
35:19strutting around.
35:21I hope we've
35:22stopped that
35:23completely and
35:23we're never
35:24going to revive
35:24it.
35:25I don't think
35:25it behoves a
35:26country like
35:27India to have
35:27that kind of
35:28tamasha on the
35:29border.
35:29In such a
35:30powerful country,
35:31India and
35:32such a
35:32nambi-pambi
35:33terror state
35:33Pakistan,
35:34I don't know
35:35why we give
35:36them such
35:37level of
35:37equivalence that
35:39we permit them
35:39to stand
35:40anywhere close
35:41to us.
35:42It's just
35:42mind-boggling,
35:44Sushant Sareen.
35:45Couldn't agree
35:45with you more
35:45on this,
35:46but go on,
35:46sir,
35:46complete your
35:47point.
35:47Yeah,
35:48and then of
35:48course,
35:49I think there's
35:49been again a
35:51significant
35:51downgrading.
35:52We've probably
35:53scrapped the
35:54posts of the
35:55defence attaches,
35:57all three of
35:57them,
35:57and I think
35:58that's not a
35:59bad thing to
36:00do.
36:01And frankly,
36:02I don't know
36:03when these
36:03positions will
36:04be revived.
36:05We've downgraded
36:06the missions
36:06significantly.
36:08I would have
36:08imagined that it
36:09would not be a
36:10bad idea to
36:10downgrade them
36:11even more,
36:12leave only about
36:1310 people in
36:14either mission.
36:15but at least
36:17this decision
36:19has been
36:19taken.
36:20At least
36:21no overt
36:22ISI.
36:23Ambassador Veena
36:23Sikri also
36:24joins us on
36:25the broadcast.
36:25Madam,
36:25welcome.
36:26At least
36:26no overt
36:27ISI operatives
36:28in India
36:29in the form
36:30of the
36:30defence
36:30attache,
36:31air
36:31attache,
36:31naval
36:32attache
36:32in our
36:33country.
36:33I mean,
36:33why did
36:34we have
36:34them in
36:34the first
36:34place
36:35anyways,
36:35when half
36:36of them
36:36would be
36:37spying in
36:37India and
36:38get caught
36:38spying?
36:39But Ambassador,
36:40your appreciation
36:40of the steps
36:41announced,
36:42are they more
36:43symbolic?
36:44Are they
36:44substantive?
36:45or is
36:45this a
36:47signal that's
36:47going out
36:47to Pakistan
36:48or is
36:48this more
36:48for domestic
36:49consumption?
36:51It's an
36:51important signal
36:52to Pakistan
36:52and I
36:53think as
36:53a first
36:53decision,
36:54what the
36:55Foreign
36:55Secretary
36:55announced
36:56is very
36:56significant.
36:57As
36:57Sushant
36:58correctly
36:58said,
36:58the
36:59decision
36:59to
36:59suspend
36:59the
37:00Indus
37:00Waters
37:00Treaty
37:00should
37:01have
37:02been
37:02taken
37:02a
37:02long
37:03time
37:03back.
37:03It was
37:04recommended
37:0415
37:05years ago
37:06and more
37:06that please
37:07suspend
37:08the
37:08Indus
37:08Waters
37:09Treaty
37:09because
37:09it is
37:10only
37:10benefiting
37:11Pakistan.
37:11They are
37:11raising
37:12every
37:12objection
37:13even
37:13to
37:13our
37:14routine
37:14run-of-the-
37:14mill,
37:15run-of-the-
37:15river
37:15projects
37:16on the
37:17rivers
37:17and we
37:18go into
37:19arbitration
37:19and they
37:20raise
37:20just delaying
37:21tactics
37:21to ensure
37:23that India
37:24does not
37:24use even
37:25the share
37:25of waters
37:26allotted
37:26to India
37:27and everything
37:27flows into
37:28Pakistan.
37:29Now that
37:29we made
37:29it clear
37:30that we
37:30are going
37:30to suspend
37:31the treaty,
37:32we have
37:32every right
37:33to divert
37:33the waters
37:34and to
37:35ensure
37:35that they
37:36are used
37:36after all
37:37first and
37:38foremost
37:38for the
37:38people of
37:39Jammu and
37:39Kashmir.
37:40And these
37:40are the
37:40very people
37:41whom
37:41Pakistan
37:42claims they
37:42want to
37:43help.
37:43But they
37:44are the
37:44people who
37:44are being
37:45denied the
37:46water because
37:46of this
37:47very
37:47iniquitous
37:48Indus-Waters
37:49Treaty.
37:50So I
37:50think that
37:51we are
37:51very correct
37:52on that.
37:52Secondly,
37:53of course,
37:53quite correctly,
37:54the suspension
37:54of the
37:55defence
37:55attaches,
37:56army,
37:57army,
37:57force will
37:57certainly
37:58stop a
37:58lot of
37:58illegal
37:59activity
37:59that they
37:59are doing.
38:00But I
38:00think that
38:01this is
38:01the beginning
38:01and I
38:02think that
38:02the all-party
38:03meeting which
38:04is likely to
38:04be held
38:05tomorrow is
38:05very significant
38:06because it
38:07will take
38:07the whole
38:07country on
38:08board.
38:08And then
38:09there are
38:09many other
38:10kinetic
38:10measures which
38:11need not be
38:12announced to
38:12the public
38:12at all and
38:13which will be
38:14taken.
38:14But after
38:15tomorrow's
38:16all-party
38:17meeting,
38:17a number of
38:18kinetic
38:18measures would
38:19certainly be
38:20in the
38:21pipeline and
38:22there is no
38:23need to say
38:23to anybody
38:24when or
38:25where or
38:25what these
38:26are.
38:27Oh,
38:27absolutely.
38:27Let Pakistan
38:28sweat a bit.
38:30General Rameshwar
38:30Yadav,
38:31I also have
38:32Mona Alam who
38:32joins us from
38:33Pakistan.
38:34Geeta Mohan
38:34stays with me.
38:35And General
38:36Yadav,
38:37before I come to
38:37you,
38:37may I
38:38quickly go
38:39across to
38:39Pakistan and
38:40ask Mona,
38:41I'm sure in
38:42Pakistan everyone
38:43has heard the
38:45announcements made
38:45by India's
38:46Foreign Secretary
38:47Vikram Misri.
38:48Any response
38:48officially or
38:49unofficially from
38:50your establishment,
38:51Mona,
38:51anything,
38:52any buzz in
38:53Pakistan?
38:53What can you
38:54tell us?
38:56Thank you,
38:56Gaurav.
38:57I would firstly
38:58like to sympathize
39:00with this loss
39:01of life.
39:01I mean,
39:01I always have
39:02and I always
39:03will.
39:03This doesn't
39:04have any
39:05ifs and
39:05buts.
39:06innocent lives
39:07being taken
39:08away is a
39:09very sorry
39:09state of
39:10affairs and
39:11my deepest
39:12condolences to
39:12the families.
39:13But,
39:13you know,
39:14the point is
39:14that I think
39:15this was
39:15extremely premature
39:16this time.
39:17Though even in
39:18Pulwama's time,
39:20I recall,
39:20the blame was
39:23right away given
39:24on to Pakistan
39:25without any
39:26investigations
39:27happening.
39:27But this time
39:28around,
39:28I think the
39:29event or the
39:30incident hadn't
39:30even taken
39:31place.
39:32Whereby,
39:33you know,
39:33social media
39:34accounts in
39:35India were
39:35abuzz of
39:37blaming Pakistan.
39:40But I think a
39:41thorough investigation
39:42must take place.
39:42This necessitates
39:44the investigation
39:45even further.
39:46that was holding
39:47the Indus Water
39:48Treaties in
39:49abeyance.
39:51India,
39:51you know,
39:52because if
39:53Indus Water
39:53Treaties held
39:54in abeyance,
39:55what impact
39:56does that have
39:57on Pakistan?
39:58Look,
39:59of course,
39:59water happens
40:00to be the
40:01lifeline.
40:01Whether it's
40:02Pakistan or
40:02whether it's
40:03India,
40:031960s Indus Water
40:05Treaty,
40:06of course,
40:06you know,
40:06it's an
40:06international treaty.
40:08And in my
40:08own appreciation
40:09or in my
40:10own understanding,
40:11I may be
40:11right,
40:11I may be
40:12wrong,
40:12but as far
40:13as I have
40:13read about
40:13it,
40:14it cannot be
40:15unilaterally
40:16held into
40:16abeyance and
40:18it cannot be
40:18unilaterally
40:19suspended.
40:20I mean,
40:20this is all my
40:21own appreciation.
40:21Pakistan can
40:22go into
40:22arbitration.
40:24If any
40:24such stern
40:26action is
40:26taken and
40:28is put in
40:29place by
40:29India,
40:29Pakistan has
40:30the right to
40:31go into an
40:32international
40:32arbitration on
40:33the matter.
40:33Of course,
40:33water is
40:34essential.
40:35I don't
40:35think there's
40:36any forms of
40:37about this.
40:38Water happens
40:39to be,
40:39you know,
40:40even in
40:40Pakistan,
40:41we're facing
40:41water scarcity
40:42and as far
40:43as I know,
40:44there's a
40:44conflict already
40:46in Pakistan
40:47between two
40:48provinces,
40:48Punjab and
40:49Sindh.
40:50So,
40:50I think what
40:51happened in
40:52your part of
40:53Jammu and
40:54Kashmir is
40:54extremely
40:55unfortunate.
40:56But I think
40:56an investigation
40:57must happen.
40:59Tell me more,
41:00this conflict
41:01that is happening
41:02because of
41:02Indus water,
41:03both Geetha
41:04Mohan and
41:04Ambassador
41:05Sikri want
41:05to respond.
41:06Ambassador Sikri,
41:07quickly before
41:07I come to
41:07Geetha.
41:08Geetha has a
41:08big smile on
41:09her face.
41:09Go ahead,
41:09Ambassador Sikri.
41:10And so does
41:11Sushant Sareen
41:11and Jil Yadav.
41:12Thank you very
41:13much for waiting.
41:14But go on,
41:15Ambassador Sikri,
41:15please respond,
41:16madam.
41:17I must say,
41:18first and foremost,
41:18I think it's a
41:19joke to call
41:20for an
41:20investigation.
41:21This is typical
41:22delaying tactics
41:23that Pakistan
41:23has always been
41:24employing,
41:25even for the
41:25Bombay attacks,
41:26even for
41:2726-11,
41:28and saying,
41:28oh, do the
41:29investigation,
41:29do the
41:30investigation.
41:30You know,
41:31Kassab doesn't
41:31belong to us,
41:32doesn't belong to
41:33us, and so
41:33on.
41:34We've bought
41:35this line.
41:36Many previous
41:36governments have
41:37bought this line.
41:38This government
41:38is not going to
41:39buy this line.
41:40Please be very
41:40clear on that
41:41point, number
41:42one.
41:42Number two,
41:43India has every
41:44right to suspend
41:45the Indus Waters
41:46Treaty.
41:46There is no way
41:47because it has
41:48been unequal,
41:49number one,
41:50and in the
41:50implementation,
41:52Pakistan has
41:52prevented India
41:53from utilizing
41:53the shares of
41:54the rivers even
41:55assigned to India,
41:57apart from many
41:57other factors,
41:58and not being
41:58allowing India to
41:59even run of the
42:00river projects
42:01on these rivers
42:03that have been
42:03held up,
42:04and Pakistan
42:04goes into
42:05arbitration and
42:06tries to pretend
42:07and raise
42:07his objection,
42:07all for delaying
42:08tactics.
42:09This is not
42:09going to work
42:10anymore.
42:11The Indus Water
42:11Treaty no longer
42:12exists, it is in
42:13suspension.
42:14Please understand
42:15that and think
42:16about what you're
42:17going to do in
42:17the summer.
42:18Before that,
42:19I would like
42:19Mona Alam to
42:20recognize Pakistan
42:22as the global
42:23center, the
42:24epicenter of
42:25global terrorism.
42:27I think if
42:27Pakistan were to
42:28recognize this
42:29fact, then the
42:29people of Pakistan
42:30would be much
42:31better equipped with
42:31to deal with
42:32their own
42:33future.
42:34Let them
42:34recognize that.
42:35Let them
42:35recognize that
42:36the world sees
42:37Pakistan as the
42:38epicenter of
42:39global terrorism.
42:39Not India.
42:40It's the world
42:41that sees Pakistan
42:42as the epicenter
42:43of global
42:44terrorism.
42:44Please wake up
42:45and smell the
42:46coffee.
42:46You are the
42:47epicenter of
42:48global terrorism.
42:49Please stop it.
42:50The people of
42:50Pakistan can
42:52stop it.
42:53Please impact
42:54your own army
42:55and the ISI
42:55to stop it.
42:56Only then you
42:57can possibly talk
42:58to India.
42:59Till then,
43:00nothing more is
43:00possible.
43:01If Mona
43:03were to do
43:03that, I'm
43:04told several
43:04journalists in
43:05Pakistan have
43:06either been
43:06arrested or
43:07disappeared.
43:08Several have
43:08been shot and
43:09shot dead in
43:10the past.
43:11Mona, maybe it's
43:13better to just
43:14stay alive in
43:14Pakistan for now.
43:15But Geetha, you
43:16wanted to come in
43:17and Sushant wanted
43:17to come in.
43:18Go on, Geetha.
43:19Well, just a
43:21limited point and
43:22a very technical
43:23one at that
43:24because Mona
43:24Island just
43:25said that
43:25Pakistan can
43:26go to the
43:27court of
43:27arbitration
43:28if and
43:29should India
43:31put the
43:32IWT,
43:33Indus
43:33Waters
43:33Treaty, in
43:34abeyance,
43:34which is what
43:35it has done.
43:36It has not
43:36annulled it,
43:37not scrapped it,
43:38not suspended,
43:39but kept it in
43:39abeyance for now.
43:41Having said that,
43:42Pakistan has
43:43already violated
43:45the Indus
43:45Waters Treaty,
43:46Gaurav.
43:47The treaty
43:48very clearly
43:49has spelled
43:50out that there
43:50needs to be a
43:51neutral expert
43:52that will look
43:53into the
43:54rights of
43:55waters for
43:56India and
43:57Pakistan.
43:58Now, that
43:58one process
43:59was underway
44:00and only
44:00recently,
44:02not so long
44:02ago,
44:02Pakistan went
44:03to the
44:04court of
44:04arbitration
44:05starting another
44:06process.
44:07India had
44:07lodged a
44:08protest saying
44:09that you
44:09cannot have
44:10two processes
44:10when one is
44:11already underway.
44:13So going to
44:13the court of
44:13arbitration,
44:14Pakistan has
44:15already done it
44:15in violation
44:16of what was
44:18considered as
44:19the first
44:19process in
44:20the Indus
44:20Waters Treaty
44:21that is a
44:23decision by
44:23the neutral
44:24expert.
44:25Fair enough.
44:25Sushant Sareen,
44:26you want to
44:27come in before
44:27I quickly bring
44:28in General
44:28Yadav on
44:29the military
44:29aspect of
44:30what India
44:31could,
44:32should and
44:32must do.
44:33Sushant Sareen.
44:34Yeah, you
44:35know, Mona
44:35talks about
44:36investigation.
44:37There was an
44:38investigation in
44:392611.
44:39Please tell us
44:40what you did
44:41about it.
44:41Even you
44:42investigated it.
44:43You identified
44:44the people.
44:44Please tell us
44:45what you did
44:45about it.
44:46Damn on
44:46it, right?
44:47On Pulwama,
44:49again, they
44:50have reached
44:51this conclusion
44:51that they had
44:52nothing to do
44:52with it.
44:53Little realizing
44:54that the
44:54Jaishe
44:54Mohammed had
44:55immediately after
44:57the attack
44:58published a
44:59video of the
45:00suicide bomber
45:01claiming
45:02responsibility.
45:04Later on,
45:05they deleted
45:05it.
45:06When they
45:06realized there
45:07will be a
45:07lot of
45:07flack and
45:08their masters
45:08in
45:09Aappara,
45:10the ISI
45:10headquarters,
45:11realized it,
45:11they deleted
45:12it.
45:13Pakistanis to
45:14pretend that
45:15they had
45:15nothing to
45:15do with it,
45:16this injured
45:17innocence which
45:17they had,
45:18nobody buys
45:18it.
45:19Thirdly,
45:20on this
45:20latest attack,
45:21this horrible
45:22massacre which
45:23these brutes
45:24have carried
45:25out,
45:25it's very
45:26clear that
45:27there were
45:27threats being
45:28issued from
45:29Pakistan,
45:30not just by
45:30the Lashkar-e-Taiba
45:31fellows who
45:32were openly
45:32parading around
45:34in Pakistan-occupied
45:35Kashmir,
45:36issuing these
45:37threats.
45:37Their generals
45:38were issuing
45:39these threats,
45:40their journalists
45:41who are
45:41mouthpieces of
45:42the generals
45:43like Najam
45:43Sethi and
45:44others were
45:44issuing these
45:45threats openly
45:46publicly on
45:46the television
45:47channels and
45:48yet you are
45:48asking us
45:49how come we
45:50are blaming
45:50you?
45:51It's very
45:52clear how
45:52we are blaming
45:53you because
45:54your hands
45:54are covered in
45:56the blood of
45:56Hindus and
45:57Indians.
45:58Okay, let's
45:58be very clear
45:59about it and
46:00finally on the
46:00Indus Waters
46:01treaty, you
46:02want to do
46:02something about
46:03it, try
46:04your luck,
46:04let's see what
46:05works out for
46:06you but I
46:07would strongly
46:07suggest that when
46:08we say that
46:10it's in
46:10abeyance,
46:11basically it
46:12means that it
46:12ceases to
46:13operate which
46:14also means that
46:15we are pretty
46:16much free to
46:16do what we
46:17want to do
46:17about it.
46:18And Mona,
46:19I'm told Pakistan
46:20has very little
46:21foreign exchange.
46:22If that's truly
46:22true, if that's
46:23actually true,
46:24I wouldn't
46:25advise Pakistan
46:26to waste it on
46:27Indus Waters
46:27treaty case because
46:28you will lose it
46:29anyways and you
46:30will lose foreign
46:30exchange.
46:31You will again,
46:32Pakistan will have
46:32to go with a
46:33begging bowl to
46:33another country and
46:34given India's
46:35strong ties with
46:36a lot of
46:36countries in the
46:37world, that may
46:38again be a
46:38problem for
46:39Pakistan except
46:39China but then
46:40you will lose
46:41more territory.
46:42General Ramesh
46:42Varyadav for
46:43joining me and
46:44being so patient,
46:45many thanks.
46:46You heard what
46:47the government
46:47announced.
46:48Is that enough?
46:49In your military
46:50appreciation, there
46:51are things that
46:52this army needs to
46:53do on ground
46:53itself.
46:54There are some
46:55who have argued
46:55this Ramzan
46:57ceasefire, this
46:58India-Pakistan
46:59ceasefire at the
47:00LC, it's only
47:01benefited Pakistan.
47:02they were able to
47:03use troops in
47:05Balochistan or
47:06in Khaybar
47:06Pakhtunkhwa or
47:08against TTP.
47:09Otherwise, those
47:10troops would have
47:10been engaged at
47:11the LC.
47:12This ceasefire does
47:13not help us.
47:14Do you agree with
47:15that perception or
47:16does the ceasefire
47:17actually work?
47:18There are other
47:18ways to impose
47:20costs on the
47:20Pakistan military
47:21jihad infrastructure.
47:22Before I come
47:26on to the
47:26military part of
47:28it, just a word
47:29on India's
47:30water treaty.
47:31This is my
47:32considered opinion.
47:34This is my
47:34considered opinion.
47:36Pakistan is
47:37keen to occupy
47:40or capture
47:41or secure
47:43Jammu and
47:44Kashmir, because
47:45it is a Muslim
47:47majority state.
47:48No, that's not
47:49true.
47:50They want to do
47:50it to control
47:51the waters of
47:52Jammu and
47:53Kashmir, because
47:54there the economy
47:56is an agriculture
47:57predominant economy
47:58and if you look
47:59at the grain of
48:01the ground, the
48:02water from Sin
48:03is taken on to
48:04Jhelum.
48:05From Jhelum it
48:06is taken to
48:06Chenab and from
48:07Chenab it is taken
48:08to Ravi.
48:09So, there is a
48:10cross-section of
48:10number of canals
48:11which has been
48:13worked out for
48:14the irrigation
48:15part of it.
48:16The moment you
48:17hold this treaty
48:18in a bend, you
48:19will find
48:20Pakistan and
48:21especially the
48:22Punjab part of
48:23Pakistan is
48:24going to go
48:24dry.
48:25So, this is
48:25where it is
48:26going to pitch
48:27them.
48:27So, it is a
48:28very big economic
48:29measure for
48:30government of
48:30India has taken.
48:32Now, coming to
48:32the military part
48:33of it.
48:34Now, talking of
48:36military options
48:37on an open
48:37channel, I think
48:39may not be
48:39appropriate.
48:40That is the
48:40first point.
48:41Otherwise, you
48:42have already seen
48:42what we had done
48:43in the past.
48:44There was a
48:44surgical strike,
48:45ground waste
48:46operation.
48:46There was a
48:47strike on
48:48Mbala code
48:48by the
48:49Air Force.
48:49The similar
48:50kind of
48:50activities can
48:51be done.
48:52There could
48:52be undeniable
48:53covert operations
48:54could be done.
48:55And there are
48:56certain lot of
48:56other things
48:57which I would
48:58not like to
48:58talk on the
48:59open channel
49:00like this.
49:00No, but my
49:02point to you
49:03was on the
49:04ceasefire.
49:04Does the
49:05ceasefire benefit
49:06Pakistan army
49:07more or is it
49:08equally good for
49:08us?
49:09Okay, I will
49:10answer that.
49:11Pakistan uses
49:12the line of
49:14control, the
49:15ceasefire part
49:16of it and the
49:17Indian bogey
49:18to conduct
49:19the foreign
49:20affairs to
49:20manipulate their
49:21troops from
49:22the western
49:22border to the
49:23eastern border.
49:24So, they use
49:26it, they
49:27manipulate this
49:27entire game
49:28plan by
49:29bogey of
49:30Indian threat
49:31by ceasefire.
49:32Ceasefire has
49:33not helped at
49:34all.
49:35Ceasefire is
49:36primarily to
49:37see to it
49:37that serves the
49:38Pakistani
49:39benefits.
49:41So, even if
49:42it is not
49:43there, it
49:43makes no
49:44difference to
49:45us at all.
49:46I have
49:46served there
49:46on a healthy
49:47number of
49:47times.
49:48In my
49:49personal opinion,
49:50even if it
49:51is not there,
49:52so be it.
49:53It doesn't
49:53make much of
49:54difference.
49:55At least
49:55Pakistan will
49:56be forced.
49:56I will tell you
49:57why.
49:58Pakistan,
49:59using that
50:00ceasefire,
50:00was able to
50:01move two
50:01divisions from
50:02the LC to
50:03the AFPAC
50:04border.
50:04And that's
50:05where Pakistan
50:05is really
50:06bleeding.
50:07Right now,
50:08Pakistan, if
50:09it were to
50:09move back
50:10some of
50:10those forces,
50:11they may
50:12lose a lot
50:13of territory
50:13there to
50:14the
50:14Taliban
50:15Pakistan.
50:16They may
50:16lose territory
50:17in Balochistan.
50:19Sushant
50:19Serene, before
50:20I bring in
50:20Mona Alam,
50:21is that a
50:21correct
50:21appreciation?
50:23Because Pakistan
50:23right now is
50:24playing with
50:25fire.
50:25Asim
50:25Munir is
50:26thinking that
50:27he's outgunning
50:28us, he's
50:29actually outgunning
50:30himself, he'll
50:31have trouble on
50:31all fronts and
50:33more.
50:34He has done a
50:35self-goal,
50:36incidentally.
50:37The kind of
50:39support that
50:40India has got
50:41because of
50:41this kind of
50:43an operation,
50:44I think,
50:45means their
50:47army chief of
50:48Pakistan, he
50:49has done a
50:50big disservice
50:51to Pakistan.
50:52Sushant
50:54Serene, is
50:54that also your
50:54appreciation?
50:55He wanted to
50:56survive himself.
50:57He's put
50:57Pakistan in
50:58peril.
50:59Yeah, but
51:00that has been
51:01his game plan
51:02ever since he
51:03came into
51:04power, hasn't
51:05it?
51:05He has
51:06ensured that
51:07Pakistan is
51:07deeply polarized.
51:08He has shut
51:09down the media
51:10completely.
51:11He has given
51:13himself an
51:14extension which
51:15will probably be
51:15indefinite until
51:17his neck gets
51:18chopped off by
51:19some of his
51:20juniors.
51:20he has
51:22literally
51:23captured the
51:24judiciary and
51:25put it in a
51:26kind of a
51:27jail.
51:27The politicians
51:28are irrelevant
51:29anyways.
51:30You know, I
51:31always tell you
51:31this, Shabazz
51:32Sharif is like
51:33the private
51:33secretary to
51:34the army chief
51:35in the local
51:36rank of
51:36prime minister.
51:37He has no
51:38akat, none
51:38whatsoever.
51:39He is even
51:40less empowered
51:40than a clerk
51:41in the office
51:42of the prime
51:43minister.
51:43So, that's
51:44his akat.
51:45Now, this is
51:45what Asaf
51:46has done to
51:47Pakistan.
51:47Simply so that
51:48he can survive
51:49and he can
51:50prance about
51:51like the
51:51chief cleric
51:52of Pakistan.
51:53But, I
51:54think this is
51:55a mistake.
51:55I think what
51:56he is trying
51:57to do is
51:57have an
51:59opener front
52:00with India
52:00so that the
52:02entire country
52:03rallies behind
52:04Pakistan because
52:05whether you
52:06like it or
52:06not, the
52:07only thing
52:07which unites
52:08Pakistan is
52:09their hatred
52:09for India.
52:11Okay, so
52:11he wants to
52:12rally everybody
52:13behind the
52:14Pakistan army,
52:15especially people
52:16in Punjab who
52:17are the most
52:17obnoxious and
52:18third-rate
52:19people, probably
52:20because most
52:21of them are
52:21converts, who
52:22have this
52:23huge problem
52:24with the
52:24Hindus and
52:25with India.
52:26So, he
52:26wants to
52:26unite them.
52:27But, at
52:28the same
52:28time, there
52:29are two
52:29open fronts
52:30in Balochistan
52:31and KP.
52:33And he is
52:34opening a
52:34third one
52:35incidentally
52:35because of
52:36the greed
52:36of the
52:38Pakistan army
52:39officials who
52:39want to
52:40grab the
52:41desert land
52:41and turn it
52:42into greenery
52:43and make
52:44Sindh into
52:45a desert.
52:46But now
52:46that there
52:46will be no
52:47water coming
52:47in the
52:48Indus river
52:48system anyways
52:49from the
52:50rivers which
52:51already existed,
52:52I wonder
52:52what happens
52:53to those
52:53plans.
52:54So, I
52:54think, all
52:55in all, it
52:56does not
52:56seem to be a
52:57very sensible
52:58game plan on
52:59the part of
52:59the Pakistani
53:00army chief.
53:01But then, when
53:02have the
53:02Pakistan army
53:03chiefs ever
53:03done anything
53:04sensible?
53:04Anything sensible.
53:05I completely
53:06agree with
53:06you.
53:07You know,
53:07they're thinking,
53:08Mona, in our
53:09appreciation, and
53:10that's just
53:10Indian thinking,
53:11that Pakistan army
53:12thinking is very
53:12tactical, whether
53:13it is Cargill,
53:14whether it's
53:1526-11, any
53:16terror attack, they
53:17can't think
53:17strategic, they
53:18can't think beyond
53:19day after tomorrow
53:20because after day
53:21after tomorrow, in
53:22every instance,
53:22Pakistan has only
53:23bled.
53:23But do you agree
53:24with this
53:24assessment that
53:26Pakistan, and
53:27tell me about
53:28that land war
53:30that's happening or
53:30that water war
53:31that's happening
53:31between Punjab
53:33and Sindh and
53:33carving out these
53:34canals and trying
53:35to sell off
53:36coroner plots and
53:37the Pakistan army
53:38is now in the
53:39eye of a storm
53:39with Bilawal
53:40Bhutto also
53:41opposing
53:42what Pakistan
53:43army intends
53:43to do,
53:44Mona?
53:46Well,
53:47President
53:48Zardari, who
53:49is the co-chairman
53:49of the same
53:50party, had
53:50given a nod,
53:51a principal
53:52nod in
53:522024.
53:53I've done
53:53extensive
53:54programs on
53:55this matter
53:55for this
53:56entire initiative.
53:57But I think
53:57that's a very
53:58domestic issue
54:00to Pakistan.
54:01As far as I
54:02know and as
54:02far as I've
54:03always heard
54:03from you,
54:03that you're
54:04always very
54:04worried and
54:05it doesn't
54:07seem to get
54:07along well with
54:08our Indian
54:08friends there.
54:09whenever that
54:10we talk about
54:11domestic issues
54:12in India,
54:13whenever that
54:13we've spoken
54:14about VAKF
54:14bill or
54:15Citizenship
54:15Amendments Act
54:16or beef
54:17lynchings there
54:17or Gauri
54:18Lankesh's murder
54:19or Om Puri's
54:20murder.
54:20I mean, you
54:21don't really like
54:21it, right?
54:22So, I do not
54:23understand the
54:24point of
54:25discussing all
54:26sorts of
54:26domestic issues
54:27when you're
54:28basically trying
54:29to make a
54:29point about
54:30this Pehel
54:30Gaam attack.
54:31I will tell
54:32you the point.
54:33The Indus
54:33water, when
54:34that water
54:34does not
54:35come in
54:36the amount
54:36that Pakistan
54:37needs, then
54:39your army
54:39chief will be
54:40the chief
54:41villain in
54:42Pakistan.
54:43That is why
54:43is there link?
54:44But I know
54:45it will take
54:45some time for
54:46it to sink
54:47in.
54:48Once it
54:49sinks in,
54:49Pakistan will
54:51cry.
54:52And perhaps,
54:53you know,
54:55those tears,
54:56those tears
54:57may be used
54:58for irrigation,
54:59but unfortunately
54:59those tears
55:00will only
55:01irrigate fields
55:01of terror
55:02in Pakistan.
55:03I hope that
55:04of course stops.
55:04But Mona,
55:05for joining me
55:06here on this
55:06India Today
55:06special,
55:07many thanks.
55:08We'll slip
55:08into a quick
55:08break.
55:09I'd request
55:09all our guests
55:10to stay in
55:10on this special
55:11broadcast because
55:11after a quick
55:12break, we
55:13come back to
55:13the story.
55:13We discuss
55:14every aspect
55:15threadbare.
55:16Will that
55:17send a message
55:17across to that
55:18terror state
55:19Pakistan or
55:20does India
55:20need to
55:21do a lot
55:22more.