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00:00Hello, and welcome to today's special one-off episode of National World Fitbat Talk, where
00:07we discuss all things Celtic and Rangers related. Today's a special episode, as I say, it's
00:13a one-off. We're joined today by my Liverpool World colleague, Will Rooney, who is on to
00:20discuss Rangers' recent appointment of Kevin Thelwell as their new sporting director. Last
00:26week, the 51-year-old will join the Ibrox club once the season is done and dusted and
00:33his contract at Goodison Park expires. This was an appointment that Rangers had prioritised
00:40on the back of their internal review of the football instructor at the club that took place
00:45in January, and Thelwell, the man that has been tasked with taking the club forward. Thelwell,
00:53Will will kind of kick off a bit about his background. This is a kind of well-respected
00:58figure. I know he's been involved in the academy set-ups, the likes of Wolves. He had a stint
01:03out in New York Red Bulls, but he's been with Everton for the last three years, and it sounds
01:08like it's been a bit of a mad rollercoaster he's gone through. Can you give us a bit of
01:13insight into him as a character?
01:15Yeah, I don't think when he took the job, he imagined it would be as turbulent as it has
01:21been, because it's been a difficult task. But in terms of his character, I think he's
01:26someone who's well-respected at the club. I think he's always been a voice that people
01:30would listen to, people would respect, would definitely lean on his opinion. And he's had,
01:40as I say, difficult circumstances to wear from the financial situation, the PSR, the points
01:46deductions, et cetera, not having a lot of money to spend, and then having to address
01:51different facets of the club behind the scenes as well. It's not just transfers that you have
01:56to look upon. So, yeah, it's been three years that I don't think he may have expected.
02:02Different managerial changes as well involved in that. And I think he leaves Everton, as I
02:09say, a well-respected character. I think that he goes with good grace. He's acted with dignity
02:19right throughout it, you know, real, real integrity. And yeah, you know, I'm sure we'll get on to
02:26it. But there have been some flaws, of course, like every appointment has. But I think overall,
02:32you have to duck your hat to what he's done at Everton.
02:36Hmm. Yeah. Obviously, he's been involved, right? It's kind of been a director of football
02:43position. So he's been leading on first team recruitment, the academy development side of
02:48things, and also this kind of implementation of the football strategy. Is it fair to say?
02:55Yeah, I think, to be quite frank, for all the good intentions that they've been, a lot of
03:01them have gone out the window. A lot of it has been first team focused and reducing the
03:06wage bill financially because Everton have had their issues. As you say, they were butted
03:11up to eight points in total. They're hit with two breaches of PSR. So it's been difficult
03:18because Kevin Felwell's had to come in. He's had to try and bring in players that Everton
03:23can sell. He's also had to sell a lot of assets in that time, squeezing margins out of, say,
03:31sales, which he's done really well. And likes of Richarlison, Anthony Gordon, Avento
03:36O'Nana, a few more that they can think of, Tamaric Day, Alex O'Hoby. Yeah, I think in
03:41total, he's raised £225 million sales and he's brought in a £145 million worth of players.
03:49So £80 million deficit there, pretty much, which is to keep Everton in the Premier League
03:55when you're literally not spending money, reducing the wage bill and everything, getting
04:01players off the books, having to sell some of your better academy players as well because
04:05it's got for PSR. That's been the main focus. There have been some different aspects around
04:10beyond the scenes with the academy, bringing in some recruits from football league clubs
04:16from Ireland, one from Scotland as well. But the main focus has been ensuring that Everton
04:24are a Premier League club going into the new stadium next season, which they are.
04:29Yeah. Well, it's obviously exciting times ahead for Rangers. Everyone will be aware at this
04:34stage that this takeover deal is close to completion with 49ers Enterprises. Of course,
04:40we've had reports over the last 24 hours that Kevin Thelwell will be heavily involved in
04:44the search for a new permanent manager. It's a difficult one to say, but based on his time
04:53at Goodison, do you feel that obviously there's been a lot of similarities in terms of Rangers
04:58and Everton potentially here in terms of the recent struggles on the field? Rangers recruitment
05:04in particular has been heavily criticised over the last 18 months or so. And there might
05:12only be one or two prized assets really in that squad at this moment in time that they
05:16might look at cashing in on in the summer. Do you feel that Thelwell could be the type of
05:21figure that Rangers need to bring some stability and turn their fortunes around?
05:25I think that's what he's brought to Everton, to be fair. Like, as I say, it's not been,
05:30it's been solid rather than scintillating. But it's had to be like that, as I say, that
05:35the priority has been for the last few years to stay in the Premier League, to get to Bramley
05:40more dock, to improve the financial situation. But Everton, at the same time, they've improved
05:50on the pitch as well. When he came in in February 2022, Everton were in a relegation battle.
05:58He stays up, stays up under Sean Dyche then. And then last season, without the points deduction,
06:03I think they would have finished about 12th in the Premier League. And this season, they're
06:07obviously on track to maybe finish 13th, 14th-ish, which it's progress. It's not the progress that
06:15everyone wants. As you say, Rangers want to be competing for the title. They want to be in Europe.
06:20They want to be in the Champions League. Everton fans want to be competing for Europe
06:23every single season. They want to see a trophy drought ended. But it's been needs must. And
06:31you could say that he hasn't had the tools to really, to really go out and get these big hitters
06:37and show what he's all about. He's had other priorities. I'm sure we'll come onto it. But
06:43some of his buyers are being questionable, some of his transfers, but some of them being excellent. So
06:48it's the life of a director of football, a sporting director and football imprudence,
06:53isn't it? You're not going to get every single one right. But he has done a lot right, to be fair to him.
06:59Yeah. As you touched on earlier, he's oversaw almost an £81 million in profit, was it, in transfers?
07:07It's been pretty impressive, given it has been a really tumultuous time for Everton. Talk to us about
07:14some of those completed bits of business that have really sat well with supporters. I mean,
07:20how is he viewed among the fan base down there? You say it's been a steady progress under him,
07:27but nothing kind of mind-boggling. What, you know, is this a character that's going to
07:32necessarily excite Rangers fans? I think it's not an exciting one to say, you know,
07:40at Liverpool, say Michael Edwards has got a real reputation, hasn't he? And say, you know,
07:46Aston Villa, Monchi and Arsenal have gone and brought in the lab from Atletico Madrid. But
07:51I think what he's done in the game, he's a highly respected figure. If we go through summer sales,
07:58£60 million for Richarlison, which has turned out an absolute steal, given what's happened at Spurs.
08:05Anthony Gordon for £45 million. Look, you could say maybe in hindsight, that might be a little bit
08:11too cheap at the time. Anthony Gordon hadn't played all that much first-team football. He was
08:17struggling for goals and assists. I think at the time, I thought that's a good feeder, £45 million.
08:26Amadou O'Nana, he got £50 million for, I think they brought him in for £33 million. So,
08:32a profit on that two years later. I think Alex Awobi for £20 million with a year left on his contract,
08:39was excellent business. Ben Godfrey, last summer for £9 million, was excellent business,
08:46given that he didn't play at Atlanta and he's struggling at Ipswich on loan now. And
08:51even some of the academy players that he's had to sell, like to Tom Cannon and Neil Sims getting,
08:56you know, £6, £7, £8 million around that ballpark for players like that. So,
09:02that for me is where the strength has lied. He's excellent when it comes to player sales. I don't
09:07think anyone can dispute that. Damari Gray, another one who went to Saudi Arabia was good business.
09:15Look, you put all those into a Premier League team, a lot of them I've just mentioned, and
09:20it's a good Premier League team and Everton instead have had to go out and get players in that
09:25maybe aren't up to that standard. Some of them have maybe got a little bit of potential but haven't
09:30quite messy. Yeah, and he's always coming into a role where he's going to have to kind of really
09:36hit the ground running because the Rangers will be involved in the Champions League qualifiers in
09:40July and there's a broad agreement in place on all sides that the club kind of need to move as
09:46swiftly as possible in terms of trying to nail down obviously not only a permanent manager but also
09:52identifying targets as quickly as possible. Obviously, we still really don't know how much
09:59impact in terms of what the budget is going to be under the 49ers going forward for Rangers.
10:05But I guess from the list you've just kind of rattled off there, the players that Everton have moved
10:10on for profit, that that will encourage Rangers fans because in recent times there has been a
10:15list of players the likes of, I go back to Borna Barris, it's Ryan Kent, formerly Liverpool of course,
10:20players. Alfredo Morelos, these were all top talents that the club mistakenly decided to
10:29allow them to run down their contracts rather than cash in on. So you'd imagine that Thelva going
10:35forward will be really looking at that. They've got two players in particular at this moment in time,
10:39Nicholas Raskin who's recently broke into the Belgian national team and Moroccan striker Hamza
10:45Igaman are the two top talents that they might look to profit on relatively soon.
10:53In terms of Thelwell's relationship with others within Goodison, that kind of structure that
11:03overseeing the football development side of things, is he quite a straightforward character to get along
11:10with? Obviously he's going to be working with these American owners who are still learning a bit
11:15about Parag Marath is involved in that, obviously his involvement at Leeds as well. Can you see
11:21kind of Thelwell kind of blending well with the new owners in place?
11:25Yeah, absolutely. I don't think anyone at Everton has really got a bad way to say about Kevin Thelwell,
11:30to be honest with you. Just the fact that the way he's conducted himself throughout this period,
11:36even throughout the takeover and maybe knowing that his time will be up when the three can complete
11:45the takeover. But look, in January, he went out and he came out and said after the window,
11:52we don't need to sign anyone. We want to look after the club and we couldn't improve it, etc.
12:01There wasn't anyone there. We'll save money for the budget in the summer. And maybe Kevin
12:08Thelwell could have went out in a blaze of glory and thought, right, let's go and make a couple of
12:11signings. Let me enhance my reputation. But instead, he put the club first. He realised I was here to do
12:19a job and that was to go, okay, improve the club. But as I say, he's acted superbly right the way
12:25through it. And in terms of some of his signings, you know, the likes of Illuminati has been excellent.
12:33Jake O'Brien he brought in the summer is now getting his chance. I say Amadou Anana,
12:39sold for profit. Maybe he didn't quite live up to his early potential, but made a lot of money on him.
12:46The only one thing I would say is, and maybe it's a fault of the, you know, not the fault of Sean Dyche,
12:56but there were some players, recruiters who you just didn't think would be a Sean Dyche type player.
13:02Okay.
13:02But Amadou, I know Dan Juma on loan a couple of years ago, didn't work out despite Dan Juma,
13:11you know, being really good for really very hard helping them get to the challenge of the semi-final.
13:16Signs, yes, for Lindstrom last summer from Napoli. Was he ever going to be a Sean Dyche player?
13:22Looks a little bit, a little bit lightweight. The jury's still out on Beto,
13:27someone who he pursued for, you know, for two windows, despite that he had a little bit of a
13:33pay-up patch when Moyes returned. But, and the jury's still out on him as well.
13:38And you said Chimiti, he was a young signer, development signer, but two years at the club,
13:44he hasn't quite kicked on yet. So, as I say, in recruitment, there's always good bias, there's
13:49always, yeah, it's, you normally try and work on a two or three, don't you, basis.
13:55Everton maybe haven't quite hit that, but look, to caveat that as well,
14:01it's probably been times when Kevin Fellwell wanted players, but Everton have just been down
14:07the Pechenolda in terms of the player going to move to Everton, the money involved,
14:12and maybe haven't been able to do it. You know, there have been players in the past,
14:18like, I think Mohamed Cousa, that was one player that they liked,
14:22Matthias Cunha they liked at Atletico Madrid, but Everton just didn't have the funds to do these deals.
14:30They just couldn't get them over the line for the fact that they didn't, you know,
14:34they didn't have the money or, you know, maybe some other players wanted to move elsewhere.
14:40But overall, I think if you reflect him as his three and a half years at the club,
14:46you probably give him a seven out of ten. I think for the circumstances he's had,
14:53he's doing a really, really good job. Yeah. Well, he certainly will have his work cut out
14:59with the Rangers support. There's certainly some of the most demanding fan base in world football,
15:04that's for sure. Just finally, Will, while I've got you then, I need to ask you your opinion on
15:10Rangers' next permanent manager. Sean Dyche is towards the front of the betting. Obviously,
15:15there's the relationship there in place. Steven Gerrard remains the favourite to return to Ibrox,
15:22which would be rather sensational, I'd imagine, despite recently admitting that he's in no rush
15:27to return to management. What type of individual can you see Rangers going for here? Marco Rose,
15:35he's another one that there's been talks that the 49ers have been kind of scouring Europe in recent
15:40weeks, speaking to some possible candidates. He's shortened in the betting. What type of figure
15:46do you feel kind of would really work well alongside Thelwell there?
15:50I think someone who is aligned with Kevin Thelwell pretty much. Look, if you mentioned Sean Dyche,
16:00they had a good relationship, but I think they had different ideas about football and
16:06football philosophies maybe. They were, as I say, they had a great relationship,
16:14but I think Thelwell plays a little bit more progressive style. But Sean Dyche, obviously,
16:23we know what he's about. So, getting someone in, as you say, who would be fully aligned with him,
16:28who he can be on song with. That's what the best relationships are, aren't they? That's how
16:36work. You look at Aston Villa with Emery and Bonchi for years, Jürgen Klopp and Michael Edwards
16:42with the data behind that. Someone who I think they both have a say, and maybe at times one of
16:51them will come out on top, but you've got to trust your ability in the sporting director. You've got
16:55to back your opinion because your neck's on the line as well as the teams. And a lot of the times
17:03with recruitment now, you're not turning to the manager and saying, why did we bring in? In the
17:08modern day, people are thinking, well, what's the sporting director doing? So, look, Sean Dyche,
17:13just for that reason, I couldn't see it. Steven Gerrard,
17:16never say never, I suppose. But for me, if you can give me an opinion, I don't know an awful lot,
17:24but if you're looking at Celtic and you've got a manager like Brendan Rodgers, who's been there,
17:30managed Liverpool, won the FA Cup with Leicester, I think Rangers have to go out and get somewhat of
17:36a big hitter if they're going to go and compete with Celtic. That's just my opinion. And you would
17:42think that a club like Rangers will be able to attract a manager of that ilk.
17:49Well, it's safe to say Kevin Thelwell's time at Everton hasn't come without its challenges. He's
17:55certainly going to be taking on probably one of his biggest challenges yet heading into Rangers
18:01this summer if they are to avoid another trophy-less season and compete much better than they have this
18:08season against Celtic. We'll leave it there on today's show. A big thanks to my colleague,
18:13Will Rooney, across Liverpool and Everton patch for joining us today. I appreciate your time, Will,
18:19and thanks again and stay tuned for the latest episode of National World Fitbit Talk.