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00:00Next on Speak Up.
00:07Are you always worried about what others' opinions are of you?
00:12Have you ever lived with someone with an alcohol or drug problem?
00:15Yep.
00:16Have you ever lived with someone who hits or belittles you?
00:21It all starts right now.
00:2381% of parents don't think dating violence is a problem.
00:27Right.
00:27What you're going through, you think you're the only one that's ever gone through this.
00:32It is not always well.
00:34Sex is not the sin and sex is not the problem.
00:37You know, address the elephant in the room.
00:40Don't mess that up.
00:41As women, we have a lot of things to do.
00:43We multitask, so that's what we have to control.
00:51Are you so focused on the needs of others or in fixing others so much
00:56that you forget about yourself in the process?
00:59Do you ignore your own needs?
01:01Or do you find your sense of value, meaning, and identity in what others think of you?
01:06If so, you may have an emotional condition called codependency.
01:11Many women may have this, and it has the potential to destroy their happiness,
01:16their career, their health, and their personal relationships.
01:21Is it preventable?
01:22How can you overcome it?
01:24Let's speak up about codependency.
01:27Now, I don't know, have any of you ever taken a test to find out whether or not you are codependent?
01:32No, it's worth exploring.
01:34I have a quiz right here for you.
01:37It's worth exploring.
01:38Maybe we should just go over some of this.
01:40If you're at home, take a pen, pencil, or if you are with your phone right with you,
01:46you can write it on your phone as well.
01:47All right, let's see where we're at.
01:48Do you keep quiet to avoid arguments?
01:52Yes.
01:53No.
01:53I've gotten better.
01:55Yes.
01:58I've gotten better.
01:59It depends on the situation.
02:00Okay, all right, second.
02:02Are you always worried about what others' opinions are of you?
02:06Yes, of me or of my performance?
02:09Of you, or?
02:10Yeah, that's a good point.
02:11Are you worried about what others think about you?
02:13Is that something you worry a lot about?
02:14Most, yeah, most of them.
02:15Yeah, if I care about the people that I'm worried about, then I do.
02:20Does that make sense?
02:20Yes, that makes sense.
02:21That's fair.
02:22Okay, have you ever lived with someone with an alcohol or drug problem?
02:26Yep.
02:26No.
02:27Yes.
02:27Yeah, well, yes.
02:28Not to my knowledge.
02:29No, no, no, no.
02:30Not to my knowledge.
02:31Not to my knowledge.
02:32You wouldn't know.
02:32No, no, no.
02:33Yeah, because sometimes co-dependency happens, you know, during that process of being with someone.
02:37Go on, I like this.
02:38I know, right?
02:40Now, look at this one.
02:41Have you ever lived with someone who hits or belittles you?
02:46No, thank goodness.
02:47Like verbally.
02:48So it's not just physical abuse.
02:49It could also be verbal abuse, you know, sometimes a parent.
02:52No, absolutely not.
02:53No.
02:53Okay, very good.
02:54Because they'd be smart.
02:55You don't need to answer loud, you know, don't worry.
02:57I just want to make sure that people hear me.
02:59She says no.
03:01Here, this one is important.
03:03Are the opinions of others more important to you than your own?
03:09It's situational.
03:10I'll be very honest.
03:11I agree.
03:11It's situational.
03:13Yeah, well, I can see that.
03:14Work is a hard one.
03:17Right.
03:17Yeah.
03:17Right.
03:18Here's another one.
03:18Do you have difficulty adjusting to changes at work or home?
03:22Yes.
03:23Do you feel rejected when significant others spend time with their friends, leaving you behind,
03:29you know?
03:29I like alone time, so sometimes I'm really okay with that.
03:32I guess that can also depend on your personality.
03:35Are you uncomfortable expressing your true feelings to others?
03:38Uncomfortable?
03:40Uncomfortable.
03:40I don't think you are.
03:41Well, you're okay.
03:42No, it's not like that.
03:45Have you ever felt inadequate?
03:47Sure.
03:47Yes.
03:48I think probably all of us have.
03:50Do you feel like a bad person when you make a mistake?
03:54Sometimes.
03:55Sometimes.
03:56I feel bad person with a bad person.
03:58Yeah, because some people, if they make a mistake or they do something that they wish
04:03they hadn't, they start not to look at the behavior, but they think, oh, I am a bad person.
04:07Internalize that as though that's their value.
04:10And I think that is part of the problem here.
04:13The other one.
04:14Do you have so many things going on at once that you can't do justice to any of them?
04:18It's just too many things.
04:19You say yes to this, this, this, this.
04:21No, I've gotten better.
04:21I have to learn.
04:22And you just can't handle it.
04:23Sometimes.
04:23I have to learn.
04:25Do you have trouble asking for help?
04:28No.
04:28You know, that is very common, isn't it?
04:30Yes.
04:30Okay.
04:31Yes.
04:31Yes.
04:32I don't have trouble asking for help.
04:33How so?
04:34We micromanage.
04:35I micromanage.
04:36Yes.
04:36And I think I can do it all.
04:38That's right.
04:38And if you do it yourself, you think it's going to be done better than if somebody else
04:42did it.
04:42Exactly right.
04:43Yes.
04:43Yeah.
04:43Yes.
04:44Yeah.
04:44I have a friend that she shared with me that that was one of the big issues, you know,
04:49growing up.
04:49She was always, you know, the older, always helping the younger children, you know, helping
04:55parents at home.
04:55So you become like, okay, you're the one that has to do it all.
05:00And, you know, it was very hard for her, though, to ask for help when she needed it.
05:05But does it have to do with I'm being the eldest of the family?
05:08Usually my parents were busy, so I kind of like sharing the burden of taking care of
05:14my siblings.
05:15And then you become dependent sometimes on caring for others.
05:17That is your, that's what feeds you, is taking care of other people.
05:21Yeah, that's the question about, you know, what others think of you.
05:24Because if you say no, maybe they'll think bad and you'll think bad about that.
05:27So you have, okay, I have to be helping everyone.
05:28I think sometimes with codependency, we look at it as a person being dependent on a person.
05:34But I think we're now discovering that codependency could be a person being dependent
05:38on a task, being dependent on something.
05:41I know someone who is dependent on being able to do for others.
05:47If they are not able to do for others, that's where they find their identity.
05:51Because that's, exactly, that's where they, their sense of identity comes from that.
05:55Right.
05:56And to please other people as well in that sense.
05:59And then we had fun here, you know, when I loudly said, no, I don't.
06:03That's right.
06:04But, you know, now it's very clear to me that I need to be in the position of being a caregiver.
06:11That's where I find my identity, being a caregiver since I was 12 years old, going to boarding
06:16school with a bunch of...
06:17Oh, see, you went through all those experiences and having to manage yourself at 12 in those
06:22situations.
06:22Right.
06:22Not only myself, but my youngest siblings, too.
06:25Oh, they were also with you at boarding school.
06:27Yes, they were there, so I became an instant mom.
06:29Oh, you looked out for them and stuff.
06:29Yeah, so my youngest sibling would come to my bed crying and, you know, seven years old.
06:34How old was she?
06:35She was seven, so I had two younger siblings, nine and seven.
06:39So I became the caregiver very early on.
06:42And this is, and then I become a nurse, and, you know, I'm a mom, so I am the caregiver.
06:48The only one that I allow to take care of me is my husband.
06:51Everybody else, I need to...
06:52So are you okay asking him for help when you need?
06:55Well, yes, I am.
06:56You're saying, yes.
06:57You're saying, yes.
06:58Yes.
06:58That was a cessation, right?
07:00Yes.
07:01Yes.
07:01We've been married for 31 years, so you develop that, you know, and trust, that trust, right.
07:07But, yeah, asking for help when you need help, you know, because you feel like you're not
07:14in charge, therefore you're not as good as you should be.
07:19So go on.
07:20We need to talk more about that.
07:22Okay, well, look at this one.
07:24This one goes right straight to that.
07:26It says, do you have difficulty talking to people in authority, just as the police or
07:33your boss?
07:34No, I'm good.
07:35No, no, no.
07:35Not really, no.
07:36Sometimes, you know, people...
07:37Sometimes it's a situation.
07:38They submit themselves, they have a hard time confronting with authority, you know, but
07:44anyway.
07:45Do you think people in your life would go downhill without your constant efforts?
07:50Then be honest.
07:52She hates to admit it, but...
07:54Well, my husband is stressed right now because I'm not at home with him preparing his lunch
08:00and preparing his food, so he's stressed.
08:02So, no, he's not going to survive without me.
08:03He said that he's not going to survive without me.
08:05Wow.
08:07And, of course, the classic one is, do you have trouble saying no when asked for help?
08:11Mm-hmm.
08:12Mm-hmm.
08:12Um, me.
08:13I'm learning.
08:14I'm learning.
08:14No, I think I got to a healthier place.
08:16Yeah.
08:16Where I don't feel like I have to say yes at everything.
08:20If I am unable, I'm sorry.
08:22I can't do it.
08:23I've gotten better.
08:25Yeah.
08:25Because at one point it was like, okay, okay.
08:26But see, you've established yourself because you're talking about work and you've established
08:30yourself because I'm in a new role where somebody has said, this is a young adult,
08:34we're going to put her in a position of leadership.
08:36I feel like I've got to show up to everything and I've got to do everything really well.
08:40That doesn't necessarily mean you are codependent, but we have somebody here that will help us
08:44understand this a little more.
08:45Dr. David Selachek is a professor at the Theological Seminary at Andrews University and we're very
08:51happy you're here with us because you are an expert on this and I know that because you
08:56see and you've treated and you've counseled a lot of people with codependency.
09:00You saw some of those questions.
09:01Are those some of the questions that we ask someone that we see in a codependent?
09:06Absolutely.
09:07Absolutely.
09:08But I'm an expert for another reason, too.
09:11What?
09:11I'm working on my own codependency.
09:14Oh, so you have personal experience with this.
09:16Yes, absolutely.
09:17Absolutely.
09:18So tell us a little bit.
09:19Is it different, a male perspective, a male from a female perspective in terms of the behaviors
09:26and the issues surrounding codependency?
09:29Well, you know, I'm not so sure that there is a major difference.
09:34I think the origins of it, you know, come from the beginning of creation.
09:38You know, in Genesis 2, 24, you know, men and women were naked and unashamed.
09:45Yeah.
09:45And I think the core of codependency is shame.
09:48And when sin came into the world, began diminishment, which is shaming the other person.
09:56Adam shamed Eve.
09:57Eve shamed Adam.
09:59And they shamed God.
10:00And so we've all been doing that ever since.
10:02And so I think a lot of what, yeah, a lot of that, that self-diminishment, we've internalized
10:10it from messages we've gotten, and then we diminish ourselves in the process.
10:15Well, we have a lot more questions.
10:16We can understand this better, but we need to take a break.
10:19So when we come back, my pickup friends will come and we'll ask more questions from Dr.
10:23Salachek.
10:24We are speaking up about codependency in women, and Dr.
10:31David Salachek is helping us.
10:33So Dr. Salachek, you're telling us about some issues related to a woman's experience.
10:38What would be some of the root causes for you?
10:41Does family matter?
10:42Culture?
10:43Can you tell us a little bit about that?
10:44Both of those things matter.
10:45You know, if a woman is raised in a culture where women are devalued, where they're not
10:51affirmed as equal, then that is a setup, you know, for codependency very often.
10:57And if you live in a family where women are not treated, you know, as even in this culture,
11:07if women are treated poorly as girls in the family, they're going to be set up to be more
11:13likely to be codependents.
11:14Do you mean treated poorly like being abused verbally or just mistreated, like in a dysfunctional
11:22family picture?
11:23Well, however the message is given and received, it is that women are less than men.
11:32Ah.
11:32In terms of gender.
11:33That takes many different forms.
11:35But whenever that happens, that's a setup.
11:38For codependency.
11:39So, in terms of, we often think, well, at some point we need to depend on someone.
11:46Can you explain to us the difference between being a codependent and being a healthy person
11:52that needs others in their life?
11:55I would use the term interdependent for people who are in healthy dependence.
12:01We all need each other.
12:02Yeah.
12:03I mean, that's biblical.
12:04We're not, no man is an island.
12:05I mean, we're all, you know, 1 Corinthians chapter 12, we all need each other.
12:10We all have different roles and functions.
12:12So, we're all interdependent.
12:14But codependence is a counterfeit of that.
12:19You know, it is an unhealthy form of interdependence where it's based in, I don't know who I am,
12:27and so I'm getting my sense of identity from you.
12:30From you.
12:30Ah.
12:31Okay.
12:32So, that's a hallmark.
12:33It's like, I'm lost here, but I need you to fulfill that for me.
12:39Yeah.
12:40So, it's interesting because in many cases, somebody then who is a codependent may be in a relationship
12:47where they are enabling the other person, doing everything for the other person,
12:52and not helping the other person instead of helping.
12:55They think they're helping, but they're not.
12:56That's right.
12:56That's right.
12:57Ah.
12:58So, explain that for us a little bit.
13:00How does this enabling take place with codependency?
13:02Well, enabling is intended to be love.
13:07Mm-hmm.
13:07I want to try and help this person.
13:09Mm-hmm.
13:09I care about them.
13:10I see them, you know, doing things.
13:13You know, some form of addiction is an example of that.
13:15Okay.
13:15That very often occurs.
13:17And so, I want to help them.
13:18And so, rather than let them experience the natural consequences of their choices.
13:24Of their behaviors and choices.
13:26You know, I kind of step in.
13:28For example, let's say a man, just for example, is drunk on the weekend and doesn't make into work on Monday.
13:36And so, a codependent would call in and say, well, my husband got the flu or he's sick, you know.
13:42So, I lie or I'm not totally truthful.
13:47And so, I intervene instead of saying, okay, you call off and tell them why you're not here.
13:52Right.
13:53That's like the story I was telling you guys earlier about the, it must be so hard when it's a parent-child relationship.
13:59Her own son is an alcoholic.
14:02She knows it.
14:03But he says, mom, I have nowhere else to go.
14:05Okay, move in with us.
14:06Well, she was giving him the opportunity to live in a nice, comfortable place and continue doing what he was doing.
14:14And it got, enabling him and continued.
14:16And finally, she said, there was one last time and she said, I can't do this anymore.
14:20You're going to have to, you're going to have to go.
14:21He found himself on the streets for a while.
14:24And she knew that.
14:25And as a mother, I can't imagine the heartbreak.
14:27But you know what, it was only until forcing him out like that, that he woke up and he went into a treatment center and he's, yeah, and he's getting himself together.
14:35So, he had to face the result, is what you're saying.
14:38And so did she, he did.
14:39And that helped him.
14:40Right.
14:40So, in the beginning, she was not maybe helping as much as even though it was out of love.
14:44Sure.
14:45So, a codependent may think they're helping.
14:48So, Ju, you're describing your situation.
14:50Well, I'm just thinking here, yeah.
14:52As a mother, I don't have anything as, as harsh as having an alcoholic child at home.
15:00But I have adult child, children.
15:03And so, we think, well, it's the economy.
15:06It's really hard for them to get up there.
15:09So, am I doing the job of a parent, a loving parent?
15:13Am I being, not teaching them that they should go out there and fly?
15:18So, it's, the lines are very blurred.
15:22And I hope that I'm, I'm trusting that I'm doing the right thing at the right moment.
15:27How can she know?
15:28Is there a way to know whether she's enabling versus, or any parent who's actually watching?
15:34A lot of adult children are living with their parents these days.
15:38Yeah, I'm actually, even like culturally speaking, like Filipinos, we live with our parents.
15:43It doesn't matter whether you're 40 years old, 50 years old.
15:46We live with our parents.
15:48So, is that a bad thing?
15:50Well, again, it may or may not be.
15:53But here's, here's a fundamental principle.
15:55Is what I'm doing as a parent assisting my child to grow, or is it keeping them in a dependency role?
16:05Got it.
16:05So, that's the line.
16:06And so, that's kind of that line that we try to, to encourage.
16:10Is it really supporting them, helping them launch, helping them grow into the fullness of the person?
16:15Emotionally.
16:16In every way.
16:17Intellectually.
16:17In every way.
16:18Not just grow in size, but really grow in their experience.
16:21That's right.
16:21That's right.
16:21Yeah.
16:22So, if that is something that you're making them more dependent on you, then self-reliant in a certain way, then you have to reassess the situation.
16:31Yeah.
16:32So, how do you help someone, let's say?
16:35We've listened to some of the questions.
16:37We're seeing ourselves in this picture.
16:39And you're someone who has experienced that.
16:41You shared with us.
16:42So, what are some of the key steps that we can take to overcome codependency?
16:47Well, first of all, one of the key things is to help people differentiate.
16:54Oh, differentiate their...
16:56Explain to us.
16:57In other words, to develop a solid sense of who they are apart from others.
17:02In other words, I have to answer the question, who am I alone, before I can answer the question, who am I in relationship?
17:09Most of us, we want to go to the second one first, but we don't have a sense of who we are, of our own value and worth.
17:18And so, once I establish that, you know, there are other things that I can do, too.
17:24For example, go to a support group is often helpful, where I can allow other people to see me, where I can be vulnerable, where I can be open, and can talk about my tendencies to be codependencies.
17:35So, like a 12-step, Christ-centered group is helpful, because then they can share their experiences, you can learn from their experiences, and you can share and be accepted without being afraid of being judged.
17:46Right.
17:46Another thing I think it's important to understand is that codependency, people who have that are just as much at risk as, say, the addict is, is just as damaging.
17:56You know, they can die from that, just like the addict can die from his or her addiction.
18:00And so, some people need even a higher level of treatment, like perhaps even a residential treatment for codependency, because it's that toxic for them.
18:10Wow.
18:11And so, you know, there are all kinds of levels of treatment for it.
18:13So, it all depends how deep you are in this.
18:16Mm-hmm.
18:16Yes.
18:17Okay.
18:18Yes, indeed.
18:18So, in terms of being people of faith, and this is, you know, we are an ashamed about that, how does God help us in that process of overcoming codependency?
18:30Well, one of the things I love about God is He always supports us in making our own choices.
18:35Right.
18:35He doesn't, He doesn't enable us.
18:38He allows natural consequences to occur.
18:40True.
18:41Okay.
18:41And so, I mean, God just sees us for who we are.
18:45He doesn't love us to death the way codependents do, but He loves us to life.
18:50Yes.
18:51And so, to me, that's a beautiful aspect of the way God relates to us.
18:56Oh, I love that.
18:57Yeah.
18:57Because He does allow us to make choices.
19:00And we know He loves us, but we also know there are consequences.
19:04And so, for parents, and if parents are watching us, allowing children and whatever decisions they make to actually have some kind of consequence out of it.
19:13It doesn't mean you don't love them.
19:15Right.
19:15But that's actually helping them to grow.
19:17Well, God chastens those whom He loves.
19:19Yes.
19:20Exactly.
19:21Well, that was very helpful.
19:22Thank you, Dr. Selachek, for helping us understand this a little more.
19:25For more information, please visit our website, hopetv.org forward slash speakup.
19:31There, you can find more resources and also download our Speak Up Notes of Codependency.
19:36This is an easy resource that you can use.
19:38You can share with your friends and also your family.
19:41And send us your comments and your questions on Facebook.
19:44When we come back, the Word of God will speak up on this issue.
19:47Stay with us.
19:51We are speaking up about codependency.
19:53And what did you guys learn about this issue with Dr. Selachek?
19:58I mean...
19:59It's deadly.
19:59Or it can be deadly.
20:01But there's treatment.
20:02It can be deadly.
20:03There's treatment.
20:03I mean, this is serious.
20:05Have you known someone who actually died because they were overdoing it for other people and not caring for themselves?
20:12Sorry.
20:13I know someone who had sent them into a place of extreme worry because they were so codependent on this particular relationship.
20:20Where the person is, what they're doing.
20:23Oh, they didn't call me today.
20:24They must be mad.
20:25Oh, well, when they came over here, they looked upset.
20:27It's something I didn't.
20:28And I'm like, maybe, just maybe, they had a bad day on their own.
20:32That's right.
20:33But it sent that person into, like, extreme worry, which could probably eventually take you out.
20:39Because, I mean, that stresses you.
20:40Oh, yeah.
20:41That's exhausting.
20:42It's where it strays your heart, I guess.
20:43Right.
20:44It will strain everything.
20:46It's the road that it takes you.
20:49So, I really appreciate the interdependence aspect that he clarified for us.
20:55The difference between a healthy dependency from each other.
20:59Because being married to someone for the past 31 years, I cannot think about life without him around and vice versa.
21:06So, I think this is healthy in a way.
21:09But will I be a whole person one day when he's gone?
21:13Will he be a whole person the day that I am gone?
21:16That is the question.
21:17See, the differentiation, though, that was very helpful, wasn't it?
21:20To find out.
21:21You can still love your husband and depend on him in a healthy way.
21:25But you should have your own identity separate from his identity, right?
21:31And likewise with parents, children, or boyfriends, girlfriends, friends.
21:36What we see sometimes with a codependent person is that they become so enmeshed, if that's the word, with the personality, with the other person,
21:45that they don't know who they are outside of that relationship.
21:48And roles.
21:49I think we should be thinking about roles, too.
21:53At one point in your life, you have the role of being a mother.
21:57You're always going to be a mother.
21:58But the role changes.
22:01You become a friend.
22:02You're always going to be a mother or a father.
22:06But the way you interact with your child might be different.
22:09From the child to the adult child.
22:10From the child point of view and from your point of view.
22:13Because then, otherwise, if you don't do that, you're going to be an enabler of behaviors that are no longer appropriate for the developmental age of the child.
22:24So allowing the child to make their own decisions.
22:26And have the consequences of those decisions.
22:30That's right.
22:30Which is very hard sometimes for parents.
22:32And to separate the point, the fact that, okay, I love them.
22:36That's why I will let them have consequences.
22:38Otherwise, the cycle, don't you imagine the cycle of a child that's raised that way?
22:43It's just going to continue.
22:44Oh, you're going to have a harder time as they go as adults.
22:47And we'll be codependents as well.
22:48Right.
22:49Now, does the Bible have anything to say about this, do you think?
22:52I mean, it does say trust in the Lord.
22:54I think a part of codependency is because maybe there's a lack of trust somewhere within self.
23:01Maybe one's process.
23:03Maybe they feel like, or an individual feels like they need to latch on to another person for a greater reason for security.
23:11But the Bible does share so much on it.
23:13And even the Lord gave us dependency to make our own choices, right?
23:18Yeah, I think you have the word for that.
23:20All right.
23:21I'll be reading from Proverbs 29, verse 25.
23:24It says here,
23:25Fear of man will prove to be snare, but whoever trusts in the Lord, remember, trust in the Lord, is kept safe.
23:33So there's a trust factor in there, too.
23:37And I think that once we get to the point of codependency, we're not in a safe space anymore.
23:42Because if you're codependent on a person, right, that person, all their stuff is in their hand.
23:49Yep.
23:50Anytime you depend on anything in this world, I don't care what it is, behavior, substance, a person, all of that can be gone like that.
23:59Yeah, even your own thoughts.
24:01And how do you fare once all of that stuff is gone?
24:04Once all that's gone.
24:05Then who are you?
24:06And that's, I think, what this is also saying because once you know Christ and God in a way that is personal and you know and you have your identity based on what he thinks of you,
24:18then no matter what happens to you, no matter where you are in the world, no matter the tragedies you can face, you're able to maintain that identity in Christ.
24:28Amen.
24:28Because you trust him.
24:29That's right.
24:30So that's beautiful.
24:31Yeah, that's beautiful.
24:32We learned that codependency takes two dependent individuals.
24:37The good news is that while you're half of the problem, you are also 100% of the solution.
24:44Go to our website and take a self-assessment test.
24:47Seek a mental health professional or counselor as needed.
24:51You can also attend a group session, a 12-step group, as it was mentioned.
24:55Learn to recognize the symptoms of codependency and rely on God for the wisdom to overcome this unhealthy emotional state and to live more fully.
25:05To download our Speak Up notes, go to our website at hopetv.org forward slash speak up.
25:11If you would like prayer, call us at 1-888-446-7388.
25:20And connect with us through Facebook by sending your questions and your comments because we would love to hear from you.
25:27We will see you next time to speak up on issues that matter for your whole health and your happiness.
25:41We will see you next time.
26:11We will see you next time.