At today's Senate Veterans Affairs Committee hearing, Sen. Maggie Hassan (D-NH) questioned VA Secretary Doug Collins.
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00:00Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thanks to the ranking member as well.
00:03I'll welcome Secretary Collins.
00:05Thank you for being here today and for your own military service.
00:10And just a note to my colleague from North Carolina,
00:13a lot of us have been working hard on reform at the VA for a long time
00:19and agreed that there need to be changes,
00:22but that is not what my line of question is about.
00:25This is about whether the so-called changes you are already making
00:29are being made with thought and transparency
00:31in a way that will serve veterans the best.
00:34In your testimony, you stated that the VA is an organization
00:37whose sole purpose is to serve veterans.
00:40You've also publicly stated that you plan to fire 80,000 VA employees.
00:45The quote is, that is a goal, that is our target, close quote.
00:49Well, roughly 25% of VA employees are themselves veterans,
00:53meaning that if you do follow through with this plan,
00:56you'll likely end up firing thousands of veterans.
00:58It's also worth noting that the Veterans Health Administration
01:01accounts for nearly 90% of all VA employees.
01:06So if you're firing evenly across the VA,
01:09you'll end up firing roughly 70,000 VHA employees.
01:15So, Secretary Collins, is your goal to fire thousands of VA employees
01:18who work to support and provide health care to our veterans?
01:22Yes or no?
01:22My goal is to make sure that veteran care is done in the best possible way
01:26and putting numbers in place that, of course, you have no blueprint for,
01:29is not helping any veteran in this room.
01:32The numbers that I am talking about are the numbers that exist at the VA now,
01:37and I'm basing my remarks and my questions on your public statements
01:40because we, to many of the other senators' points,
01:43we aren't getting specifics from you or your agency.
01:46Now, how many employees does the VA have that work outside of the Veterans Health Administration?
01:52If you divide it up in the different administrations,
01:55it's the vast majority are close to, what will be the last number, about 350?
02:00So let me answer the question.
02:02Outside of the...
02:03370,000 in VHA, the rest are off of the...
02:06Outside of the VHA, there are 54,000 employees.
02:09It is actually impossible for you to fire 80,000 employees
02:13without firing those who help provide health care to our veterans.
02:17And I'm disappointed that in all this back and forth,
02:20you seem to be trying to hide that.
02:21Senator, can I ask a question?
02:23Can I...
02:24I mean, I just don't want to respond to this because I have a question for you.
02:26My goal is to actually take care of veterans' health care.
02:29And when you look at an interior designer in a hospital,
02:33is that actually taking care of health care?
02:34I don't think so.
02:35Those are the kind of positions we're looking for.
02:37And you have multiple duplicity of stuff.
02:39My point is this.
02:40If there are a few hundred here and there,
02:44but you are talking about 80,000 employees,
02:4854,000 employees work outside of VHA.
02:51So you're going to have to take...
02:55You are taking a meat cleaver approach.
02:57There's that old adage, measure twice, cut once.
03:00You guys have been cutting without measuring.
03:02Now let me get to another question.
03:03Well, I've not cut anything yet.
03:04No one in the trumpet...
03:05Well, you've...
03:06We've not cut anything yet.
03:07We've got 2,500 employees randomly.
03:08There's been...
03:09No one in the...
03:10Secretary, my time is my time.
03:13No one in the Trump administration has been able to explain
03:16how cutting nearly one in five VA employees
03:20won't harm health care and service for veterans.
03:22In fact, just last week,
03:24the VA's head of clinical services,
03:26the top doctor in the entire VA,
03:28came before this committee
03:29and stated that he has not been involved in any discussions
03:33about how firing 80,000 employees would affect veterans' care.
03:37And he had not seen or been provided any analysis
03:41as to how these planned firings might affect care for veterans.
03:45That is the VA's head doctor,
03:47the person in charge of primary care,
03:49emergency medicine, surgery, mental health, etc.,
03:52saying that no one from your team
03:54has even bothered to once ask him
03:57whether firing one-fifth of all VA employees
04:00would make health care better or worse for our veterans.
04:03So, Mr. Secretary,
04:04why haven't you asked the VA's top doctor
04:06whether you plan to...
04:08whether your plans to fire 80,000 VA employees
04:11would harm health care for veterans?
04:13I will not speak for anyone else
04:14who has gave that testimony,
04:16but I will say this.
04:16In VHA, VBA, and NCA,
04:18they all have working groups.
04:19They all have it.
04:20The senior leadership have been working on this process.
04:23Well, this doctor told us
04:27that he has not been involved in any of those discussions.
04:30Recent reporting states
04:32that the Department of Defense
04:33may cut the Army's active duty force
04:35by up to 90,000 soldiers.
04:37To cut the force by that much,
04:39we could reasonably expect
04:40that thousands of soldiers
04:42will end up leaving active duty
04:43and returning to civilian life,
04:45meaning that they will lose their military health care
04:47and will almost certainly turn to the VA.
04:50How is the VA preparing to care for those soldiers,
04:53and how does firing 80,000 employees
04:56support that preparation?
04:58You know, again, the interesting part is
05:00they will be taken care of
05:01as every veteran who's earned the benefit going forward.
05:04I cannot state this enough,
05:05and we can continue this process
05:07with everybody who wants to ask,
05:08and I get it.
05:09But there's not been 83,000 people targeted for firing.
05:12There's been a goal to look at our restructuring
05:14and putting 15%.
05:15It's a nice talking point,
05:18but we've not done anything yet.
05:19It's your talking point.
05:21It is your talking point.
05:21It is our goal.
05:22They're quoting you saying that's the goal.
05:24It is our goal.
05:24Now, okay.
05:25The goal is not a fact.
05:26Do you want to reach your goal or not?
05:28The goal is not a fact.
05:29Most people, when they state a goal,
05:31decide they'd like to reach it.
05:33If you don't want to reach 80,000,
05:35revise your goal
05:36and tell us what you want to do.
05:37Talk to us about the analysis you've performed.
05:39You've got a lot of knowledgeable people
05:41both sides of this aisle.
05:42Both sides of this aisle want to serve veterans.
05:45It is our primary honor
05:46and privilege as Americans to do it.
05:49And we are asking to engage with you
05:51in a way to reform the VA,
05:54improve care,
05:54but make sure that that health care
05:56and those services are there for veterans.
05:59And just tossing out big numbers
06:00and cutting before you're measuring
06:02is not the way to do it.
06:04Thank you, Mr. Chair.
06:05Senator Cassidy.
06:07Can I finish that?
06:08Because, again, this is the part.
06:11Ken Cassidy.
06:13Secretary Collins.
06:14Yeah, I mean, this is the problem that we have.
06:17And this is the problem that I saw
06:19when I was in Congress.
06:20It was a problem that I've seen everywhere.
06:21When we go into something
06:23and you look at it,
06:24you have to go in and look at the process to start with.
06:27You start with a goal.
06:28You start with what you're looking for.
06:29And then you use the data that you find
06:30from your organizations
06:31to make the best choices you can
06:33without a meat cleaver approach.
06:35But when you also start with the premise
06:37that is not true,
06:39a premise that is not going to affect,
06:41and basically saying things
06:42that we're not looking at
06:43because I'm not sure how we get around the fact
06:45that we're not cutting, you know,
06:46the primary health care
06:47of people who are getting it
06:49or cutting their benefits,
06:50that is not helpful in a collaborative process
06:52to say, are we working?
06:53The question I have is,
06:54the VA is not working
06:56in the way that it should work.
06:57I am trying to get it to a point
06:59where it can work for all veterans,
07:00and the workforce is a part of that.
07:02So, I mean,
07:03some think the VA is working undoubtedly,
07:07as I've heard this morning.
07:08It was perfect before this year started.
07:09That's not true.
07:10And, Mr. Secretary,
07:11that is unfair to the members of this committee,
07:13and you need to stop characterizing it that way
07:15because that is not what
07:16a single person on this dais thinks.
07:18Senator Cassidy.
07:19So, Mr. Chair,
07:20I'm just going to say one more thing here.
07:22I am eager to engage in real numbers
07:25and non-magical thinking here.
07:27But you cannot,
07:28this witness and the VA
07:30cannot have it both ways.
07:32They cannot set out a goal
07:33and then get angry at us
07:35for asking what the impacts
07:36of that goal on those cuts would be.
07:39Senator Cassidy.