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00:00To this very special program as the Cardinals enter into the conclave to decide who will be
00:22the next Pope. We are live above the rooftops as you can see of the Vatican and of St Peter's
00:29Square as well. I'm Stuart Norville, good to have you with us this evening. Well earlier today the
00:35Cardinals paraded from Pauline Chapel into the Sistine Chapel. They took an oath to maintain
00:42secrecy and defend the Holy See. Then they came extra omnis, the call for everyone to get out of
00:48the chapel and in the last few seconds we are now getting black smoke coming out of the chimney.
00:54I don't know if you can make it out behind us, I suspect not in the dark behind me but the black
00:59smoke for the first time is coming out of the chimney exactly as we go to air. We were expecting
01:05it possibly up to two hours or even more ago but it is coming out very late. Black smoke of course,
01:10Fumata, nearer as it's known, means that as of yet we still do not have a new Pope. Well let me
01:18bring in straight away Sima Gupta, our correspondent who's been down in the square in fact over the
01:24last hour with those people who were waiting for that smoke. Sima, changing things a little bit
01:31because we're seeing that smoke immediately now. What kind of reaction do you think there'll be in
01:35the square? Well I think really, I mean it was an hour and a half of waiting and the mood in the square
01:42one of intense expectation, frustration as well. It really felt like everyone was waiting and wanting
01:49to be part of a spectacle, wanting to see this vision and according to the Vatican News outlet,
01:56Vatican News, there were some 45,000 people gathered there. I was just one of them down there.
02:04Some getting a bit frustrated because wondering why it's taking so long and it is a bit strange
02:09that it did take so long for the smoke to come out. Any theories? Well there are lots of theories,
02:16but they're all theories really because as you know the conclave, they're totally secluded in there,
02:22we have no access to what's going on in there, so it's all speculation. Could there have been
02:27discussion? But as far as we know they're supposed to be voting in there, but really it's up to them to
02:32decide how it is that they want to go. And we'll have to see what happens of course on Thursday as
02:38this process continues. But finally a wait for a lot of people. We thought it was going to happen
02:44at seven, but instead it's way past that hour. Instead it's taken a lot longer. Well we have
02:48finally seen that black smoke anyway. We've been waiting for it for all that time. Sima's going to
02:53stay with us, but first of all let's just have a little bit of a recap to bring us up to date with
02:57what has brought us to this point. After more than two weeks with no one at the helm, all eyes are on
03:06Rome. The priorities of the church and its future have been the stuff of extensive public debate in
03:11recent weeks, but 133 men will now decide. You can't predict what God wants. Their day began with a
03:21mass in St. Peter's Basilica in which the Dean of the College of Cardinals delivered a sermon
03:27reminding the Cardinals that this is a complex and troubled moment in history amid wars and the rise
03:34of populism. Today the world expects a great deal from the church to guard those fundamental human and
03:42spiritual values without which human coexistence will neither improve nor serve future generations.
03:48Then, after lunch, silent prayers in the Pauline Chapel, a moment of quiet reflection before the
03:56sea of red vestments processed into the neighbouring Sistine Chapel, singing the hymn CREATOR VENI SPIRITUS,
04:07calling on the saints and the Holy Spirit to guide them in their choice. Then, one by one,
04:13the Cardinals gave a vow to protect the secrecy of the Conclave on pain of excommunication,
04:19before Archbishop Diego Ravelli called out extra omnes, expelling all but the voting Cardinals
04:27from the room. Conclave comes from the Latin conclave, meaning with a key, and true to its name,
04:34the Conclave will remain locked away from the world until they elect a new Pontiff,
04:38with a two-thirds majority or 89 votes, under the frescoes of Michelangelo in the Sistine Chapel.
04:44And for the outside world, the only news will be from this chimney. Black for an inconclusive vote,
04:50white for a new Pope.
04:55Well, that's the recap of the day, but just to remind you, if you are just joining us here on
04:59France 24, in the last few moments we've seen that black smoke behind us, meaning that as of
05:03this moment, nobody has yet been elected Pope. And I'm just looking over the balustrade behind me,
05:09and I can see thousands of people starting to stream away from St Peter's Square. Seema,
05:13I mean, the number of people there, you were telling me, was quite incredible,
05:16a lot more than when you covered the last handover of the papacy.
05:19Exactly. I mean, particularly on this first vote, because generally most people do believe that this
05:24first vote doesn't always result in an election. In fact, it hasn't happened in centuries.
05:31So for that first vote back in 2013, I don't remember seeing this kind of a crowd of people.
05:37I mean, as we know, 45,000 people turning up. I think also the fact that it lasted so long
05:44made people wonder, have they actually made a decision? I think it is significant to note,
05:48because this first vote is really telling for the Cardinals inside the Sistine Chapel,
05:53because this is the one that will help them see where the tendencies are going in terms of
05:59which kind of groups are supporting if a particular candidate has been shown to have
06:04a significant number of votes. So it's important for the Cardinals in there.
06:08Why it lasted so long is going to be something that everyone's going to be speculating on.
06:14But we do know it does continue on Thursday.
06:17Ian, now is the real wait, I suppose. I mean, we've had a wait just of a couple of hours already,
06:21but now we have to wait until we eventually get the white smoke.
06:24Exactly. And, you know, this can continue for several days. I mean, according to the constitution
06:30at the Vatican, it's another three days of voting before they take one day of a pause if no white
06:36smoke is seen and no pope is chosen. And that's supposed to be a pause for meditation and prayer
06:40and perhaps to discuss how to go forward. And then they continue again for another seven rounds of
06:46voting. But of course, we've not seen something that lasts that long in modern times. Pope Francis himself
06:51was found to be pope. And we saw the Habemus Papam or we have a pope just out on the second day.
06:58So tomorrow, really, everyone will be looking to see whether that's the case.
07:03Are the Cardinals united around one candidate?
07:06Seema, good to have you with us. That's Seema Gupta, who's our correspondent here in Rome.
07:11Of course, she'll continue reporting for us over the coming days as we wait for that white smoke
07:16to eventually come out of the chimney. So Seema gave us a bit of a hint there as to how the
07:21conclave works. Let's find out a little bit more about it in this report.
07:28It's a process that's remained virtually unchanged for the last eight centuries.
07:34The highly secretive method of choosing a pope is known as the Papal Conclave.
07:39In theory, any baptized Catholic man can be in the running for leader. But in reality,
07:45nearly every pope has been a cardinal before they were elected. It's here in the Vatican's iconic Sistine
07:52Chapel that the College of Cardinals is convening. 133 cardinals under the age of 80 vote in secret for
08:00their chosen candidate, writing his name on a ballot and placing it in a chalice on the altar.
08:05After each round of voting, smoke is released from the chapel's chimney. Black smoke indicating that no
08:13candidate has been selected, while white smoke signals that the church has a new leader.
08:20The process is shrouded in secrecy with communication devices prohibited during a conclave. Cardinals risk
08:27being excommunicated if they leak information. If no candidate receives the required two-thirds
08:34majority during the first ballot, another round of voting takes place. There can be up to four rounds
08:40per day. Under relatively new rules introduced by Pope Benedict XVI, if no one is selected after 33
08:48rounds, the cardinals go to a runoff of the top two contenders. It's with the famous words
08:54habemus papum, meaning we have a pope, that the newly elected leader is presented to thousands
09:00of eager faithful from the main balcony of St. Peter's Basilica. Donning a fresh white cassock
09:07and a new papal name honouring a saint or a previous pontiff, the new pope takes the reins of the Catholic
09:14Church.
09:19So that's how the conclave works, and we will follow it of course over the next few days here on France 24.
09:24Joining me now is Hendrik Munsterman. He's a journalist and Vatican watcher, if you like,
09:29for the Dutch national daily Netherlands Dagblad. Thanks very much for coming and talking to us.
09:34We've had this apparent delay of a couple of hours really. People were expecting that smoke a few hours
09:39ago. Any theories as to why that might be yourself? No, it's a clear delay though. So clearly something
09:44happened, something unexpected happened. There could be, from my opinion, two different things.
09:49Either one of the cardinals had a health problem maybe, needed a doctor or even worse. Another theory
09:56would be, and it would not have been the first time, is that there has been a problem with the voting.
10:00In 2013, for example, during the fifth vote, a cardinal by accident probably put two bulletins
10:07inside instead of one, and then the whole vote had to be done again. We have 133 cardinals now,
10:12which are more than last time, and every cardinal, one by one, has to bring his vote there. So that
10:18might have explained the delay. It does show, doesn't it, the whole spectacle of the thing. I mean,
10:24obviously there are deep religious connotations behind everything, but for people who are perhaps
10:29not religious, it's a fascinating procedure, isn't it? It's old, it's fascinating, and in the same time it's very
10:35modern because the images are so beautiful. It's liturgy, and it's theatre, and it's all in the same
10:41time, you know? And it's, I think this is also, it says something about the special function that
10:49the Pope has. He's a head of state, and he's a church leader. All our human categories that apply
10:56elsewhere don't apply here. This is a special place that doesn't fit in our human structure,
11:02mind structures, I think. And what are your thoughts about how long this could take? There's been a lot
11:06of discussions over the last few days about these cardinals not really knowing each other very well.
11:11There's 133 of them. 80% of them are new cardinals, aren't they? All appointed by Pope Francis over the
11:18last 12 years. And a lot of them come from very different parts of the world, much more extreme parts
11:25of the world, you might say, than they used to come from. Clearly, yeah. The cardinal from Tonga, for example,
11:30he needed two boats and three airplanes to get here. By the way, he was one of the first ones that
11:35arrived. It was very beautiful. And one of the problems of Pope Francis was that he never made
11:41them meet each other. Only once during his 12 months, he called them to Rome for a consistory,
11:46to meet together. And I think that's also one of the reasons why, after these 12 days of preparation,
11:53this conclave could take a little bit more time than the last two conclaves that we had, that had already
11:59showed the Pope one day after the beginning. 12 days of preparation. Presumably some candidates
12:03have started to emerge, though. Yeah. So what we hear when we talk to the cardinals in private,
12:09of the record, of course, it's all secret. But what we hear from from cardinals and people close to
12:13cardinals is that that several candidates spoke and several candidates also made an impression on his
12:20on their colleagues when they spoke. And during the last days, there is one cardinal from the Philippines
12:24that suddenly showed up almost from nowhere. And everybody was looking at Cardinal Tagle from
12:30the Philippines. And suddenly there is Cardinal David, 66 years old, which we have the impression
12:36that he made an impression that he touched the hearts of some cardinals. Is he too progressive?
12:42Is he really be able to get two thirds of the votes? It's not clear at all, but at least it's somebody
12:48that will count during these days behind these closed doors of the 16th chapel. And what's so strange
12:54is, of course, we have no idea now what is going on. I mean, in modern times, we're so used to, aren't we,
13:00seeing television voting shows all the time, social media gives us reactions to anything within a few
13:07seconds. But with this, everything is behind closed doors. Everything is behind closed doors. And there are
13:12two reasons for that. The first reason is that they are completely disconnected from the rest of the
13:16world. And this, of course, is to avoid influences from lobby groups, powers, China, Russia, I don't know
13:26what, but also big lobby groups that have a lot of money, like in the United States. But the second
13:31reason is also very interesting. I think it means that whenever a Pope comes out, there is no cardinal
13:36that can say, all the cardinals can say that he voted for him. It's so secret that it's, it serves
13:42the unity of the church, because when the Pope is out, it's the Pope of all the cardinals and not
13:46only of a party, you know. And I think this is one of the reasons that this conclave needs also
13:52the secrecy, because the church is very divided now, not only between liberals and conservatives,
13:58if I may say so, but also from continents. What is possible in Africa is not possible in Europe,
14:02or in Asia, or in Oceania. And so this unity has to be served, and the secrecy serves this unity.
14:10And how do you get over that problem? Because trying to satisfy all those different blocks,
14:14if you like, of the cardinals is extremely difficult, isn't it?
14:17So this is the, first of all, this is the biggest conclave that we ever had, 133 cardinals,
14:22as you already said. 70 countries represented. We never had so many countries. Last time there were
14:27only 48, which means 22 countries more. And they come from all over the planet.
14:32This, one of the things to, one of the challenges, and that Pope Francis already talked about,
14:38he called it a healthy decentralization, which means maybe not all the issues have to be treated in
14:44in Rome, but could also be treated on the lower level, maybe by continent, or by a local episcopal
14:50conference, or by a diocese. The problem is that Pope Francis, during these 12 years, has never
14:56really made big steps to go there. But this is probably one of the things that these cardinals have
15:00been talking about and are thinking about. We saw the gay blessing, the gay couple blessing
15:06that Pope Francis allowed a few months ago, that went very bad in Africa. Many people in the west
15:12were very happy about it, that gay couples can now be blessed by a priest. But in Africa, this is
15:16something that got a lot of criticism, also by the bishops. The African bishop conferences said
15:22together, we are not going to bless gay people here. This is for us not acceptable. So we see there,
15:27and then the Pope said, okay, I will not oblige you to do. So that means that a kind of
15:35diversity in the speed of the church and the diversity in the application of the rules in the
15:39church is possible and will probably in the next years get more and more diverse.
15:44And Africa is becoming more important, isn't it? It's one of the few areas where the number of
15:48Catholics is growing. So the Catholic Church is still growing, it grows almost in the same speed
15:53as humanity grows, like for eight billion people now. In Africa it grows fast, but this is a
16:00demographical growth. But the number of the Cardinals of Africa is quite low. There are only 17 Cardinals,
16:07which is not at all, if you compare it to the number of Catholics in Africa, it's very little.
16:14You mentioned earlier the disunity problem. The difficulty is, of course, if this does drag on,
16:20the fear is that it shows that there is a real disunity within the church.
16:24Yeah. So the interesting thing is that the theme of unity and disunity is used by the conservative
16:31part of the College of Cardinals. They use unity and the risk of a schism as a method,
16:38as an instrument to get a more conservative Pope. Because the idea is that if you put a more progressive
16:44Pope, then the Church could split up. The Cardinals have to see if this is a real problem or if this
16:51is just something that they use to get a more conservative Pope. I would say that at this moment,
17:00most of the Cardinals, and I think much more than two-thirds, are very happy with the horizon,
17:06with the direction that Pope Francis gave to the Church. That might change some little things,
17:11maybe more some decisions that could be taken by a Pope more in collegiality with his brother bishops
17:19and Cardinals. But in the end, they want to go in this same direction. You think his legacy will
17:27live on? Oh yeah, his legacy will probably live on. The question is, who can take this legacy in his
17:34hands, move it forward? And will these Cardinals get two-thirds of the votes? The minority is
17:40conservative. Are there more than one-third or not? This is the question that will be seen in tomorrow
17:45or the day after. Well, how important do you think this whole process is for the Church? I mean,
17:50obviously there's the renewal of the papacy, but also just having these thousands of people,
17:56all these television crews here as well, it must just... I mean, it's good PR, isn't it, for the Catholic Church?
18:01So, maybe the first thing, all these Cardinals, they have seen how many thousands of people came
18:06here to St. Peter to say goodbye to the Pope, came to St. Peter's Square for the funeral. And if you go
18:13to Santa Maria Maggiore in the center of Rome, every day until now, there are lines of people that want
18:20to visit the grave of the Pope. A German Cardinal said, these people are voting with their feet. They don't
18:25have a vote inside the conclave, but with their feet, by going to Francis and saying goodbye, they show the,
18:30the Cardinals, this is the way that we want to go further with our Church. And if I can add a little
18:37bit, one little thing. I think one of the most important shifts of Pope Francis's legacy and
18:43Pope Francis's pontificate is that he introduced mercy in the doctrine of the Church. Until now,
18:50the Church had a very clear doctrine, for example, on sexuality, homosexuality, contraception, etc.
18:55And then in the confessional, the Church was very merciful. Everything was forgiven,
19:00forgivable also. But the mercy was something that was very private, individual. What Francis did,
19:07he took this mercy out of the confessional and took it out in the preaching. So the mercy is not
19:13only application of the doctrine, the pastoral application of the doctrine. Mercy is also
19:17doctrine. And this is the biggest shift of Pope Francis, I think. And this is something that the
19:21next Pope probably will have to take over and bring further.
19:24Hendra Munsterman, thank you very much for coming in and talking to us today. That's Hendra Munsterman,
19:29journalist and Vatican watcher for the Dutch national daily Netherlands Dagblad. If you are just
19:34joining us here on France 24, just looking over the balustrade once again behind me, you can see
19:38still thousands of people thronging away now from St. Peter's Square. Around about 20, 25 minutes ago,
19:46we saw that first black smoke coming out of the chimney above the Sistine Chapel, indicating or telling us that
19:53at this stage, no Pope has been elected, but that vote very, very late. It wasn't until after
19:589pm local time when normally that would come about 7pm or soon after 7pm. So still many questions to
20:04ask when they come out of that conclave as to exactly what's happened on the first evening. No doubt we will
20:09find out a little bit later on. Well, of course, Catholics have been watching all the day's events
20:13very, very closely right around the globe as well. Let's bring you this report on what happened.
20:19Tourists and Catholics have come from all over the world to witness history being made.
20:27Here in St. Peter's Square, Mass in the Vatican Basilica was broadcast on screens.
20:32When the date of the conclave was announced,
20:34this French Catholic booked her tickets to Rome to see the next Pope.
20:39We think we'll see the Pope. We don't know who it is yet, but we'll have seen him among the Cardinals.
20:44Being spiritually present at this moment, it takes on a new dimension.
20:50This family originally planned to see Pope Francis.
20:54We organized our trip quickly, in just three months. And since Pope Francis had a great sense of humor,
21:00he invited us to the election of the next Pope. So in terms of its historical significance for us and
21:06for our son, this is really special. There are also some who came to St. Peter's Square by pure coincidence.
21:14We're here at the right time and we're glad we came in the end. We can attend without necessarily
21:18having planned to. We'd like to see white smoke if possible.
21:24Less than two weeks after Pope Francis' funeral, mourning and contemplation now give way to hope.
21:30It's wonderful. It's just wonderful to see all the Catholics and all the Christians,
21:34everybody coming together, everybody so hopeful.
21:37This afternoon, the heavy doors of the Sistine Chapel closed,
21:42signaling the beginning of the Catholic Church's conclave to elect the next Pope.
21:46The reaction there from Catholics right around the world on this highly historic day, of course.
22:00We're joining us now here on the program is Mario Giro. He's Head of International Relations
22:05of the Catholic Association of the Community of Saint-Digio. He also was former Italian Deputy
22:11Foreign Minister. Thank you very much for coming in and talking to us on the program.
22:14Good evening. First of all, tell us about Pope Francis. I know you met him many times.
22:19Yeah. What was he like? He was a very direct person. When he wants to tell you something,
22:26he told you and also bluntly. It was a very, very Argentinian character and someone who was used to
22:36to live a very simple life and in the periphery, in the outskirts with pores, etc. We met first time
22:45when he was Archbishop of Buenos Aires, before he was even a Cardinal in the outskirts of Buenos Aires,
22:52where Saint-Digio exists also. And what did he tell you about what he wanted to see for the church?
22:57Ah, for him, his idea of the church was the church of the external, not the church of the internal.
23:06I heard some Cardinal during these days saying, we have to give back the church to the Catholics.
23:16It was exactly the opposite that Francis was thinking. Giving the church to everybody, open all the doors.
23:22I mean, he certainly reached out, didn't he, to many different parts of the world,
23:26where the Catholic Church in the past had been retreating a little bit?
23:29Yes, I think so. And I think we will see the fruits of what he did in the future. And the next pope
23:38will have to manage with this, because now the message has flown over the outside of the structure,
23:48the institutions. You know, the church is a balance between charism and institutions.
23:54And what do you think then the future is for the church under the new leader? Presumably,
24:00it depends who that leader is. Yes, of course. There is a personal touch of the next pope,
24:06as Francis had his own personal touch, and also John Paul II, etc., Ratzinger also. But I think that
24:17the church has very much changed in these years, 12 years of Pope Francis. Poor immigration, peace,
24:27those things have marked the Catholic people. And probably are a little bit uncomfortable for
24:35a part of the clergy. But that is the reality. The church is, in a changing world, is a changing church.
24:44You're talking about the more conservative side of the church, I assume. I mean, how can they be kept
24:49on board, if you like, if the church does continue down? This is the real question. You're right,
24:54the real question for the next pope. How to maintain unity with this diversity of internal of the church.
25:02The conservatives are a minority. In the past, there were a majority. But they are very vocal. And of
25:10course, we have not to divide the Christians of social concern with the Christians with only moral
25:16concerns. We have to merge the two. And this is the challenge of the new pope. Yeah, I mean,
25:22the community that you work for is all about encouraging into faith meetings, about conflict
25:26prevention, that kind of thing. Why do you think that is so important for the church to be involved?
25:31It's important because the church has remained the only global institution that,
25:35at its top, is for peace in every kind, in every moment, not accepting and delegitimating war as an
25:45instrument, as a political instrument. And this is not only Pope Francis. This is one century of
25:53theological approach of the Vatican, starting with the First World War, when Benedict XV said,
26:01it is an useless massacre. And it was criticized by Archbishop of Vienna and France and Paris on the
26:09two sides. Because for the church war is always a civil war, a war among brothers. Poor and also a
26:17changing world, which is the next model of social justice for the future. This is another important
26:23question. Then we have relation with Jew, the Jew, the Jews. It was a very important improving
26:32from Nostra Aetate, the council, to Netanyahu. And now we have a lot of troubles because of the war in
26:38Gaza. Every evening the Pope Francis was calling on phone the Gaza parish. This is a signal. Then we have
26:48also the question of migrants. In that question, Pope Francis was against all the leaders in the Western
26:56War, without exception. Notably Italy's leader. Now, even if the relation between Madame Meloni,
27:05Prime Minister, and the personal relation and Pope Francis was good. But this question, also with Trump,
27:11is good. But this question is dividing. You know. So it's impossible to separate politics and religion,
27:19is what you're saying. Mainly it's impossible to separate geopolitical issues with religion.
27:25Yeah, yeah. More than daily by day politics. We'll talk about the individual candidates in a moment. But
27:31what kind of candidate then are you looking for? I think that they are trying to find a mediation
27:38between charisma and institution. Someone will keep the house in order, but in the same time,
27:46will not close the door and continue to be charismatic. Okay. Well, let's look at some of
27:51those candidates then, some of the names that are in the frame. There are so many of them,
27:54but we picked a few of them out for you in this report.
28:00Who will succeed Francis as the next head of the Catholic Church? A few names are already being
28:05mentioned. First, the Vatican Secretary of State, 70-year-old Pietro Parolin. He's an experienced
28:13diplomat and seen as a compromise candidate between progressives and conservatives.
28:18Another Italian, Matteo Maria Zuppi, the Archbishop of Bologna, is also a possibility. Like Francis,
28:25the 69-year-old Cardinal is known for his social commitment to migrants and the poor,
28:31and cares little about pomp and protocol. Outside Europe, there's Cardinal Sergio de Rocha from Brazil,
28:39or Luis Antonio Tagli in the Philippines.
28:44The men in the conclave come from Ulaanbaatar, Lesotho, East Timor, so truly from the four corners
28:49of the world, with concerns that are not the same as those of the European heavyweights.
28:54It's not just where the next pope comes from, but also what direction that pope takes the church.
29:02Could the keys be given to another progressive? Jean-Marc Aveline, the Archbishop of Marseille,
29:08shares the same views on immigration and church relations with other religions as Francis.
29:14On the other hand, the College of Cardinals could choose a more conservative-leaning pope,
29:19like Robert Serrat shown on the left, or German Gerhard Müller. There's also politics at play.
29:29We must not underestimate the influence of the Catholic Church's very large financial sources,
29:35which can come also from the United States, from Africa and elsewhere, and which want to refocus the
29:41church. They want to get even with the pope, who wanted to decentralize his church, and who wanted a
29:47church that reflected the poorest in those who suffer. Whoever is selected, the choice of the
29:54future pope will send a strong signal in a context of growing tension within the church.
30:03Well, one of those potential candidates, then, is Cardinal Pierre-Baptiste Pizzabala. And we're going to
30:09cross live now to Jerusalem and talk to our correspondent, Nogata Napolsky, who joins us from there. Nogata,
30:15tell us then who Pierre-Baptiste Pizzabala is exactly.
30:22Pierre-Baptiste Pizzabala is the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem and the first Cardinal of Jerusalem
30:28in history installed by Pope Francis as part of Francis's move to bring back Jerusalem, the Mother
30:37Church into the Church into the heart, at least of theology and of thinking, in the power corridors of
30:44the Vatican. He's a very unusual, remarkable man. He would make probably, I think, a transformational
30:52pope. He's Italian-born, but he has lived his entire adult life and his entire career
30:58in Jerusalem, in the city that's at the heart of the church, but where Catholics and Christians
31:06all together are a minority among Jews and Muslims. He has a PhD from the Hebrew University written in
31:14Hebrew. He's a guy very adept here in local customs and very beloved in the city of Jerusalem.
31:22Yeah, as you say, very beloved. Tell us about the reactions there of
31:29people to him being named, if you like, as a potential candidate.
31:35Well, you know, it's really interesting because in Jerusalem, obviously an important Catholic city,
31:40but in the past, the only time we've had this kind of a buzz around town regarding Catholic affairs is
31:46when the popes, different popes have come here on pilgrimages, including Francis. But now, tonight,
31:52I was at an event with European diplomats and locals, a Europe Day event, and almost the only subject of
31:59conversation was the closing of the doors at the conclave and the possibility that this, you know,
32:06local boy could be chosen. A very wide range of local clergymen and clergywomen support him fervently.
32:18And I do think that that is possibly an important point that could be reflected in the Vatican.
32:24He's someone who manages to gain the respect and even the devotion of people who don't necessarily agree
32:32among themselves about everything. He also has an enigmatic quality in terms of these more culture war questions
32:40that preoccupy the Catholic Church in Europe and in the US, in the sense that being a Holy Land prelate,
32:48he has not had to really express himself on questions of women in the priesthood or abortion or same-sex marriage as others have.
32:58No, thanks very much. Nogatana Polsky there, talking to us live there from Jerusalem.
33:06And Mario Giro is still with us. I mean, Pierre-Baptiste Pizzaballo, would you think he would be a good candidate?
33:12He's one of the candidates. The only thing that he was described with is that he's too young.
33:22If they're too young, that means they may stick around for a little too long.
33:26Yes, it's a strange thing, you know, because you know which is the butad here in Rome among the clergy?
33:33We want an Holy Father, not an Eternal Father.
33:36Yeah, because it's important to renew every now and again for the whole of the Catholic Church.
33:42What about other candidates? I mean, there's one candidate who's part of your community yourself, Matteo Zuppi.
33:46Matteo Zuppi, Archbishop of Bologna. Of course, it was my responsibility when I was a teenager.
33:53Then it's a candidate of the heart. And then there are others, of course, the Secretary of State, Cardinal Parolin.
34:02These three put again Italy, hoping to have a Pope, but it's not sure because there are other candidates coming from Asia, for example.
34:13It's important. Pope Francis named a lot of cardinals in Asia, more than in Africa.
34:18And there are more Catholics in Africa than in Asia, because he was, in his prophetic view, was the future is in Asia.
34:25Then Asia is important. We have also some cardinals in the Curia, for example, Prevost, for example,
34:32but he's an American, but was in Peru and now he's in Rome. There's another possibility.
34:37The Conservatives want the Cardinal Erdo as the Hungarian as their candidates. We don't know. It's very difficult to make speculation on that.
34:49Yeah, but Matteo Zuppi is definitely the man that you're hoping for.
34:53But as we say in Rome, what the Cardinal will decide is the good decision.
34:59Yeah, there's another phrase, isn't there, that we've heard a lot over the past few weeks,
35:06that he who enters as a Pope comes out as Cardinal. I mean, we're giving all these names.
35:10It depends, you know.
35:11But we're giving all these names, aren't we? And quite often, it turns out to be somebody completely different.
35:16Yes, but you know, when Ratzinger entered Pope in Conclave, was the name Pope, also Montigny, Pope VI, it depends, you know.
35:29We don't know. There are several possibilities. What I can say, if they decide tomorrow, it will be Cardinal Parolin.
35:41Because he's the obvious person. He effectively was the deputy Pope before, wasn't he?
35:45Yes, in some way. It was always with Pope Francis. He has another personal touch, of course.
35:53But is it not too much of the same thing, if he was to be elected?
35:57No, I don't think, because it's considered a geopolitician, a diplomat, a man very wise, very calm.
36:08It's different. It's very different. Anthropologically, humanity is different from Francis.
36:13Even he has the same ideas, of course.
36:16Do you think that could work in the modern age? I mean, one criticism of him is that perhaps he's not dynamic enough.
36:22I don't know. Church is normally slow. Church normally doesn't like Catholic Church to have the agenda dictated by the word, by the secularity.
36:35And I think that he will continue to remain like this.
36:43You don't think there's any possibility then that we will get a surprise in that we will get a more conservative candidate?
36:47Because it is an option, isn't it?
36:49More conservative, I don't think so. But I want to precise this. It can be conservative in moralities or moral issues, but not conservative in economical or social justice issues.
37:06Yeah, there are many, for example, environment issues, but then when it comes to more home issues or social issues, you say they may be more conservative.
37:17Normally, we have the Westerns and Europeans have this focus on morality, for example, homosexuality, marriage of homosexuals, or the question of women, etc., etc.
37:33But it's not the same perception in the south of the Church, in Latin America, so and so, in Africa at all, and also in Asia.
37:45And it depends. Conservative in what?
37:49And a lot of those issues, of course, have been around for years. They may have changed slightly as perceptions around the world, of changing perceptions in individual countries.
37:57But for those issues that have been around for years, there's no way of solving them, is there?
38:01There's no way of saying, okay, this is what we're doing, everybody has to follow the same thing, because it really does depend in different countries what the local traditions are.
38:10Yeah, you're right, but the Church is not a dictatorship. The Pope cannot oblige everybody, and the concern for unity is very important.
38:19For example, for example, what will do the Catholics? We'll see what is going on with the moral issues in the other Church, in the sister Church, Anglican Church, historical Protestant Church.
38:32And we see, and we see, and they see, that there are questions of unity, and the unity is shaked because of this.
38:41Then they will not move.
38:43You know, this is also a question. It's very difficult to imagine a solution for everybody.
38:50Probably, probably, the flexibility will be a just balance, but we have also to consider that, for example, Pope Francis was one Pope that was saying capitalism has to fall like the Berlin Wall,
39:07and also quoted like killers, the doctors, the doctors, medical doctors that make abortions.
39:18That is, progress is not conservative. It's difficult to say.
39:23It's difficult to say, that's very true. How does the Church, do you think, survive in the future? What does it need to do to ensure that it remains relevant?
39:30To remain open. To remain open, I think. That's very important.
39:34I think the Church has its own crisis, abuses, for example, etc., but it's no more in crisis than the society, the Western world, Europe, democracy, human rights.
39:48You know, we have a world of wars, and we need a Church that is the only global institution because it's referring to the global good.
40:00And we see that also the superpowers are choosing their own good, only.
40:06And is that the way to bring people together, do you think?
40:09I think, yes. They have to speak to the young people. That's a challenge, particularly the African young people, because they are very numerous.
40:18I mean, we're living in a world, aren't we, of social media nowadays, of mobile phones, of not necessarily competing for people's souls, but competing for the time.
40:28Pope Francis had 55 millions of followers.
40:32Now, the success, what we'll do with Pontifex.org.
40:36So, in other words, all of that has to be taken into account and brought along with religion to become part of the new modern world.
40:45You're right.
40:46And are you confident that that's possible?
40:49I mean, as you look ahead, you know, 10, 20, 30 years, do you think that the Church will be able to navigate all those new innovations, which are inevitably on the way?
41:00The Church has navigated in other innovations in the past centuries, has confronted very difficult moments.
41:08I think the Church will find a way to navigate also in our world.
41:14Let's finish off then by talking about the conclave.
41:17It's underway. It's been underway for a few hours.
41:20For those of you who are just joining us, we had the black smoke not that long ago now,
41:25around about 35, 40 minutes ago, came out of the chimney on the top of the Sistine Chapel,
41:31showing, therefore, that at this stage a Pope has not been elected.
41:35But it's, I mean, it is an historic moment, isn't it, that is going to be seen over the next few days,
41:40and a moment that is obviously we've seen by the crowds behind us bringing a lot of people together.
41:46And to a certain extent, after the sad loss of Pope Francis, bringing about a sort of, you know,
41:53renewed coming together of people of the Catholic faith.
41:57I think if you see the queue of people going to greet the Pope Francis in Santa Maria Maggiore,
42:06it's shocking.
42:08People going, going, going, very long queues.
42:12I think that there is something emotional in this conclave.
42:16It's an historical moment.
42:19And the people are willing to have someone that speaks to their heart.
42:24And I think that this is the very difficult job of the Cardinals.
42:29And do you think whoever is selected, people will be able to get behind them?
42:33At the beginning, yes.
42:34At the beginning, yes.
42:35Then is the challenge of the new elected Pope to continue to speak and to have words of sense in a life that is losing sense.
42:48And a lot of solitude, a lot of individualism.
42:52Yeah.
42:53And why is that important then to bring religion into that, to try and turn it around,
42:58try and turn people's minds around and give them something positive?
43:01As a politician, I would say religion is important because it preserves the social fabric of the society.
43:08But there is also more spiritually important reasons for that.
43:13Yeah.
43:13Thank you very much for coming in and talking to us.
43:16Mario Giro, Head of International Relations of the Catholic Association in the Community of Sant'Edigio,
43:21also former Italian Deputy Foreign Minister.
43:23Thank you very much for being with us on the program today.
43:26If you are just joining us, we're on the rooftops, as you can see, with the Vatican behind me and St. Peter's Square below.
43:33When we came on air around about 40 minutes ago, the black smoke started coming out of the chimney on the top of the Sistine Chapel.
43:40At the time, St. Peter's Square behind me was absolutely thronging with people, thousands of people,
43:46a lot more as Seema Gupta, our correspondent, told us at the top of the program than she saw here when she was here for the last papal handover back in 2013.
43:54So there's a real sense of excitement and enthusiasm amongst the faithful as to who the new pope will be.
44:01We will be following that, of course, over the next few days here on France 24, not least tomorrow, when we may get a result.
44:08The last four popes have been decided pretty quickly.
44:11So we shall see whether that continues to take effect, I suppose, over the next few days.
44:18Just to give you one little warning, though, it was 1503, I think, that the pope was elected just in a few hours.
44:25But there's always that other warning.
44:27It was a long time ago now, 800 years ago, that it took two years and nine months.
44:31Hopefully we won't be in for that this time.
44:33But thank you very much to my guests once again for joining us here on the rooftops with that view of the Vatican.
44:38We will leave you for the moment here on France 24 and, of course, more coverage coming up.